The Amish...

[PlentyGroovy]

...are Christian extremists!!:):

I just spent some time in PA and enjoyed seeing the Amish in their buggies with the cutest kids. I bought a book on the history, seems they got in big persecution over adult baptism and grace based salvation during the 1600s. When they came to America, they refused to own slaves.:): They have TONS of good eats at their weddings. I just don't see a down side!!

[PlentyGroovy]

Awwww....

http://www.amishphoto.com/galleryindex2.htm

...sigh.

[A_AmericanSaint]

No computers :heh

[blondie]

I worked in a grocery store and during the summer the Amish men would come in from working around the farm. The store would smell like a combination of manure and sweat for quite a while after they left. Then a new group would come in and start it all over again.

Seriously though, they don't believe that you can know you are saved. You can hope and follow all their rules but never know for sure where you'll spend eternity.

[PlentyGroovy]

They are so 'don't be of this world' they won't have lines connecting them to it, electrical, telephone, na da. I don't know...sounds kind of peaceful.

http://www.amishphoto.com/images/992.jpg

:):

[PlentyGroovy]

I worked in a grocery store and during the summer the Amish men would come in from working around the farm. The store would smell like a combination of manure and sweat for quite a while after they left. Then a new group would come in and start it all over again.

Seriously though, they don't believe that you can know you are saved. You can hope and follow all their rules but never know for sure where you'll spend eternity.

I read that they believed in grace and not work based salvation...:confused

[roadrunner570]

They Amish have roots with the Anabaptists, which means "re-baptized" they were the ones who started adult baptism around or after the reformation, and were severelty persecuted for many years. THey finally came to the states.

There they split up into the Mennonites, and the Mennonites broke off into several groups. The Amish were the group that was more into tradition and lifestyle. MOst Amish around here believe pretty much that they are the only ones going to Heaven. Their bishops have an enormous amount of power and influence among them, and they just cast lots to choose their bishop, so he has no training. They don't do any kind of outreach or evangalism, they're very isolated.

[PlentyGroovy]

They Amish have roots with the Anabaptists, which means "re-baptized" they were the ones who started adult baptism around or after the reformation, and were severelty persecuted for many years. THey finally came to the states.

There they split up into the Mennonites, and the Mennonites broke off into several groups. The Amish were the group that was more into tradition and lifestyle. MOst Amish around here believe pretty much that they are the only ones going to Heaven. Their bishops have an enormous amount of power and influence among them, and they just cast lots to choose their bishop, so he has no training. They don't do any kind of outreach or evangalism, they're very isolated.

I read that the Mennonites 'broke' over shunning. A woman lied and then lied about lying but wasn't shunned. The pro-shun were eventually Amish. Also, disagreement about communion, whether to have it once a year or twice and if you could include foot washing. I'd love to know what the lie was that the woman told!! Caused a lot of trouble!!

[roadrunner570]

I read that the Mennonites 'broke' over shunning. A woman lied and then lied about lying but wasn't shunned. The pro-shun were eventually Amish. Also, disagreement about communion, whether to have it once a year or twice and if you could include foot washing. I'd love to know what the lie was that the woman told!! Caused a lot of trouble!!

WEll, they disagreed on a lot of things. Some believed in salvation by grace, and others believed in living the proper life, tradition, not conforming to the world, etc.

The Brethren and Missionary Churches also came from the Mennonites as well.

[Timothy]

Below is something that I wrote from a past thread. My opinion is that some of the Amish are very pseudo-cult-like in the way that children are not educated past the 8th grace, making it very difficult for them to leave. The subject of salvation is very convoluted, as some believe they have to join the Amish church to be saved, etc.

Over the weekend, purely on a whim, I rented a DVD documentary called "The Devil's Playground" after seeing it on the shelf. The primary focus of the documentary is Amish teenagers going through "Rumpsringa."

Given the narrow focus, the film provides only glimpses of Amish life, in general. So it actually raises more questions than it answers on the broader aspects of Amish life. The focus on "Rumpsringa," though, is quite astonishing. They obviously focused on some "extreme" cases, including one Amish teen who got involved in dealing drugs.

The DVD also included a commentary track, which did contain some additional information. Just as a heads up, there is some foul language from the Amish kids on the DVD. I believe it was an HBO documentary.

I'm remotely familiar with Amish culture and beliefs, and am aware that many "variations" exist. Here are just a few of my "observations" from the DVD, itself. Again, I'm sure there are other Amish segements, where these beliefs will vary.

* Children don't reach an age of accountability until the age of 16 (i.e. they can't be saved at least until at least the age of 16).

* There was a brief segment with a local law enforcement officer. He described how there will be huge parties with hundreds of Amish kids and lots of booze. Some Amish parents just let it happen, in their yards, on their farms, "turning the other cheek," though underage drinking is illegal, etc.

* An Amish elder indicated that they "have no jurisdiction over the kids if they are not members of the church." - i.e. kids over 16. Once they become a member of the church, they are welcomed with open arms, regardless of what they may have done before joining.

* It was stated that most Amish kids have cell phones. They reach other this way for the beer bashes, etc. This is obviously, pre-joining the church. The may also have other things, including cars, etc. before joining the church, which they then give up.

* While dating/courting, Amish kids can spend the night together, in bed, after a date. It's called "bed courtship." An Amish elder indicated it is to encourage "intimacy, and not sex." In the commentary track, they indicated that Amish kids receive no "biological" education, and a fair amount of pregnancies do occur.

* In regards to salvation, Amish kids clearly had the understanding that to "go to heaven," they had to join the Amish church and be water baptized, in order to even begin a hope of going to heaven. They all seemed uncertain of salvation - what it is, etc. An Amish elder said that "most Amish believe that you must be water baptized in order to be saved." This topic itself would be another for another thread, but obviously this false doctrine is the result of a lack of a dispensational approach to scripture.

* The process of raising children is called "breaking the child." It begins at the age of two. Children are not educated past the 8th grade. I felt this was very "cult-like" - i.e. by limiting their education, it makes it extremely difficult for them to leave, as they are "incapacitated."

That's some of the glimpses of the Amish from the DVD. Again, the main focus is following several Amish teens going through "Rumpspringa."

[PlentyGroovy]

WEll, they disagreed on a lot of things. Some believed in salvation by grace, and others believed in living the proper life, tradition, not conforming to the world, etc.

The Brethren and Missionary Churches also came from the Mennonites as well.

I just want to infiltrate one of those wedding feasts, the food looked awesome in the book pictures. Think I could get away with it???

[PlentyGroovy]

Below is something that I wrote from a past thread. My opinion is that some of the Amish are very pseudo-cult-like in the way that children are not educated past the 8th grace, making it very difficult for them to leave. The subject of salvation is very convoluted, as some believe they have to join the Amish church to be saved, etc.

:freaked That's it! I'm infiltrating to get the real scoop. Who's with me?



Hello? Anyone?

[blondie]

They have little sheds off of the house for the phones so they're not considered attached to the world. We used to go to a church pastored by a guy who grew up Amish and he would tell some wild stories. They were allowed to smoke brown cigarettes because white cigarettes were of the world. The men couldn't take communion if their hair was at the middle of their ear. It could be below the ear or above the ear but not in the middle. They can't have big buttons or pockets on their clothes. They use pins and hooks for the clothes. Some of the older Amish women are nearly bald on the sides of their heads from pulling their hair back so tight in buns.

DH used to work with a guy that was Amish until his mid 20s. He said the one night him and his wife were reading the Bible and I forget which passage it was he was reading but he showed it to his wife. She read it and they both said they realized that they weren't the good people they thought they were. He said that they realized that keeping all the rules of the order weren't gonna get them to heaven. They left the Amish soon after that. A funny story about this guy was he went to service a fork lift at a factory that had a lot of Amish working there. He was fixing the fork lift and there were these two Amish guys watching him. The one guy says to the other guy in PA German "We could do this. Why are paying this guy?" Jake stands up and packs up his tools. The Amish guy asks him in English why he's leaving. Jake says to him in PA German "If you think you can do a better job than me, go ahead" He said the guy's jaw about hits the ground and he starts apologizing and asks him to stay. That was a hoot to hear him retell with all the visuals he added.

[Peace2u]

Recently, about 4 or 5 months ago, there's was a television program called Amish in the City. It was ~FASCINATING~. The idea was to take 5 Amish kids and 5 City kids and have them live together for several weeks.

I was glued to the TV set week after week, watching these polar opposites interact. Inevitably, the clashes came about. For the most part, the City kids were backstabbing, rude and totally obnoxious. Not to mention appearing to have no values.

By contrast, the Amish kids were well mannered, although somewhat naive. The Amish kids were off on what they call Rumspringa. That is a period of time where they decide if they are going to get baptized and join the church and permanently disconnect from the world.

There's no denying, these are wonderful people. However, their rules are way out there and have no basis in God's word. They have wonderful family values, but the education piece of their beliefs makes it very difficult for young ones who decide not to join the church. Finding employment when you don't have a high school diploma is not an easy thing to overcome. If they don't join the church, they are "forever" shunned by their family too.

The other big problem is the inbreeding that's going on. They always seem to have large families and many a child in born with a birth defect. No small thing to discuss with them when they merely say, "that is must be God's will."

[Rebecki]

The bishops do hold a lot of power and influence over the Amish groups, and as far as scripture goes, the Amish are not "allowed" to read the bible on their own, but only to study what the bishop hands down during his sermon. Reading the bible on your own time is not looked favorably upon.

Many of them believe in "pow-wowing", which is basically witchcraft. They go to the "pow-wow" doctor who conjours up things to heal you and what not. Many do not go to "English" doctors, instead insisting on going to the pow-wow doctor. It's very demonic.

They must adhere to the Ordnung or risk shunning. Pretty much during their rumschpring the teens are allowed to do anything they want to.

[SeaDreamer]

You know those magazines similar to Birds-N-Bloom where farmers keep a diary for a week? I read one once kept by an Amish girl. She was engaged. Her description of her life sounded so.....peaceful. It made me realize how intrusive this world is. She grew up having none of the temptations as a teen that I did. I'm not saying it was perfect but she sure missed out on a lot of bad decisions simply because the choice was never put in front of her. If I sound jealous it's because I am a little.

[roadrunner570]

I have some family who grew up Amish. Another thing, I forgot about the pow-wowing. When we were kids, I was really sick, and my grandma wanted to do a pow-wow, and my dad wouldn't hear of it. He was Amish till he was 16.

While they nice and polite and peaceful to us "English", they are often quite mean and abusive within their own familes, at least in many cases. In the hospital I work in, a former Amish patient once told me that in his area, kids are so well behaved because they are pretty much beaten into submission.

[PlentyGroovy]

It is sad that there is another side to the coin. They live apart, they turn the other cheek, which is awesome (how would wars happen if everyone refused to fight). But then there is a dark side to it. I found a blog where it spoke of children being sexually abused in a community and the leaders were telling them that if the abuser publicly asked for forgiveness, to let it go...:(:

I believe there are some good folk, trying to do the Godly way, but being so separated, and isolated. Satan will try to work his way into anything, nothing is too low for him to try to separate people from God. Even in the earliest formation of the church, he was in their midst (Judas).

I'm listening to the book of John on cd, done by pastor Brian of Rocky Mountain Calvary. When these were taped, it was right at the time of the Columbine shootings. Pastor Brian was speaking on when John asked Jesus who the betrayer was and Jesus said the one who I hand this bread to and dipped it, then handed to Judas. The apostles were clueless, they assumed Jesus was sending Judas on a legitimate errand when He said, go quickly and do what you must do. Then satan entered Judas, and the apostles were clueless. Satan was right within their midst and they had no idea.

Pastor Brian spoke of how satan will do anything to infiltrate a church. He spoke of his anger and frustration at how some churches were complaining over the service televised for the Columbine victims on CNN. They were complaining that it talked too much about Jesus. Thousands heard the gospel that day on CNN and some churches were complaining....satan will work his way into anything he can. It explained to me how satan could of worked his way into the Amish communities, that started with the best intentions but let their traditions become more important than anything else.

We need to pray for our churches and our pastors, we need to be aware of what is being taught and does it line up with scripture. It obviously happens to the places with the best of intentions.

[LivnForChrist]

I admire them but I know myself

go without my hairdryer....pleaseeeeee :scared

Ride a stinky old :deadhorse and give up my :car, no way!!!

bake bread, wash clothes on my hands???...Perish the thought. I'm not a little house on the prarie kind of gal :hippie

go without a tv/video games( my kids) ??? thems fightin words! :boxing

Live without Electricity??? somebody get the doctor!!! :faint

go without my :ranger??? Die maggot, Die!!! :fencing

[cenimo]

Kilp klop.......klip klop........klip klop klip klop klipklopkilpklopklipklop
Bang! Bang! Bang! klipklopklipklopkilpklopkilpklop.......

Amish drive-by shooting

:eek

[roadrunner570]

Did you know that if you threw a baseball at that little orange triangle on the back of a buggy and hit it that you'd dunk the driver? :pound :pound :pound

[cenimo]

You're in Indiana so I know you've heard of these guys :):

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
about the Electric Amish

Who Are We?
Meet Graeber,
Carl, & Barry...
up close

Electirc Amish FAQ's
Q: Are you really Amish?

A: Yes, why do you think we wear these outrageous beards?

Q: Who is the guy on the bike at your live shows?

A: That's Yoder. He rides the bike to generate power for our lights and instruments.

Q: What do you do when you are not playing your music?

A: We work in der fields, pray, listen to the Ozzy Osbo...we pray A LOT, and work der fields.

Q: Do you have any pets?

A: Yes! Carl has a wobbly dog, Graeber has cats he doesn't like,
and well Barry just has the goats.

Q: Now that you have achieved national fame, where do you live?

A: On the farm...duh!

Q: Carl, does Graeber ever complain when you and Barry smoke on stage?

A: Not unless he wants his backside kicked!

Q: Has the Parson ever caught you playing the rock & roll music?

A: Why, what have you heard???

http://www.electricamish.com/amishfaq.html

[toddlemom]

WEll, they disagreed on a lot of things. Some believed in salvation by grace, and others believed in living the proper life, tradition, not conforming to the world, etc.

The Brethren and Missionary Churches also came from the Mennonites as well.

The Missionary Church in this area split from the Mennonite church which went several different directions. One group became "Old Order" (horse and buggy) Mennonites; one group became progressive (modern dress) Mennonites; one group became "black car" Mennonites; and one group morphed into the "Missionary" church.

One of the big contentions that led to forming the Missionary church was whether to preach in German ... or switch to English to reach more of the folks around them.

Just like other members of other churches, there are sold-out born-again Bible-believe Amish and Mennonites (or insert group here) and then there are those that sleep in the pews until time for Sunday dinner!

Amish/Mennonite food BTW is nothing fancy. Think of it as "Bob Evans" type foods served by someone wearing a prayer covering ;):

[Miriam33]

They have little sheds off of the house for the phones so they're not considered attached to the world. We used to go to a church pastored by a guy who grew up Amish and he would tell some wild stories. They were allowed to smoke brown cigarettes because white cigarettes were of the world. The men couldn't take communion if their hair was at the middle of their ear. It could be below the ear or above the ear but not in the middle. They can't have big buttons or pockets on their clothes. They use pins and hooks for the clothes. Some of the older Amish women are nearly bald on the sides of their heads from pulling their hair back so tight in buns.

DH used to work with a guy that was Amish until his mid 20s. He said the one night him and his wife were reading the Bible and I forget which passage it was he was reading but he showed it to his wife. She read it and they both said they realized that they weren't the good people they thought they were. He said that they realized that keeping all the rules of the order weren't gonna get them to heaven. They left the Amish soon after that. A funny story about this guy was he went to service a fork lift at a factory that had a lot of Amish working there. He was fixing the fork lift and there were these two Amish guys watching him. The one guy says to the other guy in PA German "We could do this. Why are paying this guy?" Jake stands up and packs up his tools. The Amish guy asks him in English why he's leaving. Jake says to him in PA German "If you think you can do a better job than me, go ahead" He said the guy's jaw about hits the ground and he starts apologizing and asks him to stay. That was a hoot to hear him retell with all the visuals he added.
When we lived in Wisconsin a lot of the Amish were annoying to the local farmers because they refused to have phones of their own...they just came over everyday to use the farmer's phones. Other Amish families had minivans and cell phones....

[cathy1953]

There was a documentary not too long ago, on tv, about a young Amish girl who had been sexually abused by her brothers.
She finally had the courage to speak up and try to find some help to get out of it.
She called the local sheriff, which is something that you just should not do if you're Amish, is report something to the local sheriff or seek help outside of their community.
Anyway, they arrested her brothers and they had a trial. Can't remember the punishment that was given to the brothers, but the girl was shunned by the family for reporting it.
The family felt that the brothers had asked for forgiveness and that should have been the end of it.
But the girl was shunned so bad, she had to leave home. She got a job at WalMart, got herself a vehicle, and had to make it on her own.
I do remember that she was worried about her little sister, that the same thing would happen to her.
Very sad story.

[PlentyGroovy]

I was reading something along those lines too...:(:

You know, I could forgive a lot of things, step on my toe, hit my car, call me a bad name...but if anyone ever hurt my child in that way. I would *cuss word* cuss word * cuss word* them. To me, right now in my walk, that is the unforgivable sin. Guess God has some work to do on me:redface

[Timothy]

There was a documentary not too long ago, on tv, about a young Amish girl who had been sexually abused by her brothers.
She finally had the courage to speak up and try to find some help to get out of it.
She called the local sheriff, which is something that you just should not do if you're Amish, is report something to the local sheriff or seek help outside of their community.
Anyway, they arrested her brothers and they had a trial. Can't remember the punishment that was given to the brothers, but the girl was shunned by the family for reporting it.
The family felt that the brothers had asked for forgiveness and that should have been the end of it.
But the girl was shunned so bad, she had to leave home. She got a job at WalMart, got herself a vehicle, and had to make it on her own.
I do remember that she was worried about her little sister, that the same thing would happen to her.
Very sad story.

Several months ago, there was a similar story on NBC Dateline, or a similar show. It had to do with an "elder" that repeatedly raped a young woman. It may have even been her father. She said that she told other adult Amish women in the Amish community about it, but nothing was ever done so she worked up the courage and went to the Police. If I recall correctly, they even had DNA evidence, as she went immediately after yet another rape.

Due to the lack of any "support" from the Amish community pre-reporting it as well as post-reporting it, the young woman obviously elected not to stay in the Amish community. So in typical Amish fashion, they "shunned" her.

The real "kicker" came at the trial. They showed the footage from the courtroom cameras, and at least 30 Amish showed up in support of the Amish elder and not one for the young woman. Luckily, there was enough evidence and the man was sentenced to prison. During his closing remarks, the judge was absolutely furious at the Amish in attendance and lambasted them for showing zero support for the victim, helping her before she even went to the police, etc.

With many similar stories such as this, and learning more about some of their practices, I carry zero "romantic" admiration for the Amish. From a Biblical perspective, each Amish sect carries different beliefs, so it is somewhat hard to generalize. But generally speaking, they tend to force women to be totally subservient to the man (i.e. examples of the above rape, where the women wouldn't/couldn't do anything). Generally speaking, I think it would be accurate to say that with their beliefs that legalism trounces grace.

[RhondaH]

I was reading something along those lines too...:(:

You know, I could forgive a lot of things, step on my toe, hit my car, call me a bad name...but if anyone ever hurt my child in that way. I would *cuss word* cuss word * cuss word* them. To me, right now in my walk, that is the unforgivable sin. Guess God has some work to do on me:redface


I believe this would fall into the category of righteous anger.......;):

[cathy1953]

And another thing they do is keep the childen from going on to school and getting an education. They have to leave school in about the 8th grade.
That makes it very hard for them to leave the Amish community, however, I think a few are resourceful or imaginative enough to get out.
A co-worker of mine, said that there are some Amish people who live in a community not too far from her. She said they used to go to the closest town, and the women wearing those long big skirts would go shopping in the clothing stores. My co-worker said they shoplifted many things from the store owners.
I used to be very curious about this group of people, and I thought they were so holy, leading such righteous lives, but I found out they are not any better than the rest of us sinners. {I should have known that, but I was curious and just thought they were a really good group of people.}
They are also discouraged from individual Bible study.

I sure would hate to know I was being prevented from reading the Bible.

[Beth]

... the Anabaptists, which means "re-baptized" they were the ones who started adult baptism around or after the reformation,

...

I would correct this. The Anabaptists were indeed the 're-baptizers', but this sect if one could call it such, started way, way back in the history of the church, not at the time of the Reformation. These people were called all sorts of monikers (usually by their enemies which unfortunately, was the state church).
During the severe persecutions of the early church, by the Romans, some people did renounce Christ and give worship to Caesar etc. After Constantine came on the scene and the Roman church got it's start; then some of those who had renounced Christ came back, and also the doctrine of baptismal re-generation began to be promulgated, and that led eventually to practice of infant baptism, which eventually became required by law. The result being, that a whole bunch of people were in the church who had 1) previously renounced Christ under persecution, and 2) never been saved at all by faith, just baptized as infant and called Christian.
The Anabaptists rejected this and considered that such people had not been saved at all. They insisted on adult baptism, after coming to faith in Christ and public confession of such faith. If anyone wanted to join them, and had come to faith in Christ, the Anabaptists would 'rebaptize' them, disregarding their infant baptism.
Their rejection of the Roman Catholic doctrine of baptismal re-generation and infant baptism, led to their severe persecution by the state church.

So in fact, the practice of the earliest Christians was believer's baptism upon public confession of faith in Christ. Infant baptism and the idea that one is re-generated by baptism, was a later, added on doctrine of the Roman church.

[roadrunner570]

I would correct this. The Anabaptists were indeed the 're-baptizers', but this sect if one could call it such, started way, way back in the history of the church, not at the time of the Reformation. These people were called all sorts of monikers (usually by their enemies which unfortunately, was the state church).
During the severe persecutions of the early church, by the Romans, some people did renounce Christ and give worship to Caesar etc. After Constantine came on the scene and the Roman church got it's start; then some of those who had renounced Christ came back, and also the doctrine of baptismal re-generation began to be promulgated, and that led eventually to practice of infant baptism, which eventually became required by law. The result being, that a whole bunch of people were in the church who had 1) previously renounced Christ under persecution, and 2) never been saved at all by faith, just baptized as infant and called Christian.
The Anabaptists rejected this and considered that such people had not been saved at all. They insisted on adult baptism, after coming to faith in Christ and public confession of such faith. If anyone wanted to join them, and had come to faith in Christ, the Anabaptists would 'rebaptize' them, disregarding their infant baptism.
Their rejection of the Roman Catholic doctrine of baptismal re-generation and infant baptism, led to their severe persecution by the state church.

So in fact, the practice of the earliest Christians was believer's baptism upon public confession of faith in Christ. Infant baptism and the idea that one is re-generated by baptism, was a later, added on doctrine of the Roman church.

THanks, in my bible class, the reformation is where we started talkinga bout the anabaptists, so I could be wrong. I DO know they they were the first group since the early church to be totally against the church/state union that had gone on for so long. That was another major problem they had with the church at the time.

[Knight of Faith]

So, wait. Are you saying that Amish people do bad things too?
No way, that would make them Human.

[milkncookiesmom]

I carry zero "romantic" admiration for the Amish.

I agree with you there. I'm from Wisconsin too and have watched the Amish and Mennonite come to town many times. Other local farm women could make a living just driving the Amish around. The problem I've heard is that they are just presumptuous of your time though. They will drop by any time of the day expecting to get a ride to wherever they want to go, like a taxi service. Of course they can't call ahead because they have no phone to do so.

As a kid I could see through that line of thinking. It isn't okay to own and drive their own cars, but they will "use" those who do? They would even use the neighbors phone, but they woulnd't ever own one of their own. It makes no sense. They are making up man made laws, enforcing them legalistically to entrap their youth. It isn't consistent and it isn't Biblical and it isn't Godly thinking.

The big thing in our area is the Amish Furniture stores. Basically a business person opens a store to be the middle man for the selling of Amish made furniture. While it might be nice furniture, it is overpriced.

In my sister's area there is an Amish store where bulk foods and supposed Amish bakery items are sold. It is all a lie. My brother has worked as a bakery Manager for Grocery store chains. The frozen bakery doughs they were selling in this store is the same exact product he purchased and baked for the grocery stores. The bulk items are just that bulk items that they purchase and bag up to sell for more. Things like nuts, pastas, candies and soup mixes etc. It is nothing different than going into your local co-op store and buying in bulk.

I just see a cult that has lost sight of it's original purpose and are legalisticly clinging to a lifestyle while trying to live in and profit from a culture they have supposedly rejected.

No I have no romantic admiration of the Amish either. While the lifestyle does sound peaceful at times, I'm not fooled by the piety. God is a Holy God of Love and not legalism. And Yes as you said, I think they do believe that "legalism trounces grace". :cry :cry