When was lucifer thrown out of heaven?

[hannahrachel]

I was just wondering as I have heard many variant theories.:confused Did he try to take G-ds throne before the earth was formed? Or, somewhere in the middle of the earth forming and the making of man, is this when he warred in heaven against G-d? Or, was it after he lied to Eve and Adam in the Garden? Just looking for ideas with maybe a scripture to show me when that battle happened? in my graditude to you all for help, hannahrachel :wave

[MikeJ]

His fall probably occured between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 before Adam's creation. He still has access to God's Throne (as the "accuser of our brethren") but will lose this privilege at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period; Rev. 12:7-12.

[matheteou]

His fall probably occured between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 before Adam's creation. He still has access to God's Throne (as the "accuser of our brethren") but will lose this privilege at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period; Rev. 12:7-12.So you don't believe the following is a statement about all of creation?Genesis 1:31 (ESV)
31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

[Flagboy]

I tend to lean towards after the creation. God created it all in days 1 through 6, even the angels. Satan is a fallen angel. My bible doesn't say that Eve took the apple on day 8, for all we know it could have been up to 100+ years before Satan tempted Eve with the apple. We know from Genesis 5 that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

Now we know that Cain and Abel were born before Seth, but there is nothing telling us that Cain and Abel couldn't have been born at least 100 years after the Creation of Adam and Eve.

With this possible 100+ year time span before the Fall of Man (which happened before Adam and Eve had any children), that would give Lucifer plenty of time to think and rethink his rebelion against God. Once Lucifer and his coherts were given the boot (fallen angels), then I'm sure Lucifer would have then wanted to destroy what God had created, since he couldn't over take God Himself. What better way to destroy God's Creation than to teach man how to sin.

Just my humble opinion,
Flagboy

[DeeLeeKay]

I don't think he has yet to be thrown out of heaven. He still has access to the throne of God.
As per Revelation 12.

[MikeJ]

In context, the Genesis account seems only to include the physical world. The spirit world was already created; Job 38:4-7. In Genesis 1:1 the Lord created the heavens and the earth. In Gen. 1:2 there is chaos. Gen. 1:3 seems to begin a recreation. That's why I think that verse two is when Lucifer is likely to have fallen.

[Flagboy]

In context, the Genesis account seems only to include the physical world. The spirit world was already created; Job 38:4-7. In Genesis 1:1 the Lord created the heavens and the earth. In Gen. 1:2 there is chaos. Gen. 1:3 seems to begin a recreation. That's why I think that verse two is when Lucifer is likely to have fallen.

Okay... let's suppose this is correct. (although I do disagree) Please help me understand the following.

As I understand it you are saying that the angels were created prior to Genesis 3. Also you are saying that the Fall of Satan occured prior to Genesis 3. (by the way... this is all still in THE FIRST DAY of the Creation)

Genesis 1:1-5
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Who or what are the morning stars in Job 38:7? Are they actual stars which were created on Day 4?
Genesis 1:14-19
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Are they are indeed actual stars that God Created, that actually resonated on the perfectly created Earth to sound like singing? If so then how do ALL the angels (which by the way, includes the fallen one Lucifer) shout for joy as expressed in Job 38:7? Why would Lucifer (included in all the angels) shout for joy, after he had already challenged God, failed, and is now hence fallen? Why would 1/3 of the angels shout for joy as well? Weren't demons scared of Jesus, and didn't want to even be associated with calling him Lord (even though they must)?
Job 38:1-7
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

It is my understanding that God is talking to Job basically saying something like, "Hey Job, who are you to question who I am? Or question my abilities? Were you there when...?" I really don't think that this piece of scripture when taken in it's full context even remotely suggests that the angels were created and Satan fell prior to the rest of Creation. Besides, how can God later say that everything he has made is good if the angels had already fallen? It is my belief that the evidence you have stated is based upon a misguided interpretation of scripture. I'm not trying to attack you personally. But I do happen to disagree with that position.

Respectfully,
Flagboy

[vrcat50]

I am totally confused by all this

[Flagboy]

I am totally confused by all this
:lol :pound Don't fret about it... many things confuse me too.

[GloryBound]

Many people think it happened right after creation. But we read in the first chapter of Job and also Revelation 12 as already mentioned, that he was in heaven AFTER people think he was kicked out. So he still has some sort of access.

[LizMusica]

I have a question, how did Lucifer ever get access to the Lords throne? Did he literally sit there, or did he just visit?:confused

[GloryBound]

He doesn't sit there. He visits.

[spunky]

I,ll try and explain the best I can as I understand it, as we know Paul talks about being caught up to the third heaven, Lets read that verse:

(11 Corinthians 12:2 I Knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God Knoweth; such an one caught up to the third Heaven.)

The way I see it,satan is the prince of the power of the air right now, , , Lets read that verse:

( Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience;)

so now lets take a look at the tribulation location in Revelation

(Revelation 12:7 thru 13 Verse 7: And there was war in Heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Verse 8: And Prevailed not; neither was their place found anymore in Heaven.

Verse 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Verse 10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Verse 11: And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Verse 12: Theirfore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Verse 13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. )



I believe this IMHO That paul talks about the third Heaven , and if this is where God is and satan was booted out to the prince of the power of the air in Ephesians , where he currently is still the accuser of the brethren night and day, and then he cast down to the earth in the tribulation , that would be 3 different places,
I hope this helps and someone and I know God is on the throne and in control, At this time this is all my little we bittie mind can come up with,LOL

Thanks, Spunky

[Shogun74]

I had always thought Satan and the Angels were perminantly thrown out of heaven 1/2 way through the tribulation? When Satan eneters the Body of th AC.

I dont know if the timeline of eternity in heaven works the same way as time works here on earth, so it could have happened at the beginning and also at the end. I guess we really wont understand how heaven works till we get there.

[MikeJ]

Dave Hunt and David Jeremiah both believe that angels were created prior to the creation of earth. A literal interpretation of Job would indicate that they actually witnessed its formation. We need to understand that the bible refers to three heavens. I believe the Genesis account is speaking of the first two heavens not the third where God Himself dwells.

[LivnForChrist]

Dave Hunt and David Jeremiah both believe that angels were created prior to the creation of earth. A literal interpretation of Job would indicate that they actually witnessed its formation. We need to understand that the bible refers to three heavens. I believe the Genesis account is speaking of the first two heavens not the third where God Himself dwells.


I agree. I think the angels, devils and satan predate mankind.

[Flagboy]

Dave Hunt and David Jeremiah both believe that angels were created prior to the creation of earth. A literal interpretation of Job would indicate that they actually witnessed its formation. We need to understand that the bible refers to three heavens. I believe the Genesis account is speaking of the first two heavens not the third where God Himself dwells.
Okay, fair enough. But I still disagree. :D: My brief study into the topic has led me to believe otherwise. And I really like David Jeremiah too. :confused

Just curious, if you don't mind, who or what are the morning stars refered to in Job 38:7 ?

Thanks.

YBIC,
Flagboy

[LivnForChrist]

Heres just a thought. The morning stars of JOb 38:7 most likely refers to angels. Once, the fallen angels fell they were no longer considered angels but demons, the same way satan was no longer considered a morning star but the devil, the dragon, father of lies...etc.

[MikeJ]

Heres just a thought. The morning stars of JOb 38:7 most likely refers to angels. Once, the fallen angels fell they were no longer considered angels but demons, the same way satan was no longer considered a morning star but the devil, the dragon, father of lies...etc.

Fallen angels and demons may not be the same. Demons may be the disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race. Why else would they seek to possess a physical body? Another theory is they could be the spirits of the Nephilim (a hybrid offspring) mentioned in Genesis. It's wild and dicy but interesting.

Flagboy,

I guess the "morning stars" are angels or maybe high ranking ones.

[savedsinner]

This is an interesting fact, although it may be a little off topic...

The name Lucifer was actually a Roman god, it's what they name the planet Venus, or "Day Star." The original hebrew reads "Day Star," not Lucifer. The translators of the King James version read the original text and translated daystar into Lucifer. The King James version is the only version that has the name Lucifer.


That blew my mind when I learned it.



12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!




1. The Hebrew for this expression--"light-bringer" or "shining one"--is translated "Lucifer" in The Latin Vulgate, and is thus translated in the King James Version. But because of the association of that name with Satan, it is not now used in this and other translations. Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is erroneous. The application of the name to Satan has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isa. 14:12, which many authorities believe is not true. "Lucifer," the light-bringer, is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word "Phosphoros," which is used as a title of Christ in II Pet. 1:19 and corresponds to the name "radiant and brilliant Morning Star" in Rev. 22:16, a name Jesus called Himself. This passage here in Isa. 14:13 clearly applies to the king of Babylon.

[savedsinner]

This is an interesting fact, although it may be a little off topic...

The name Lucifer was actually a Roman god, it's what they name the planet Venus, or "Day Star." The original hebrew reads "Day Star," not Lucifer. The translators of the King James version read the original text and translated daystar into Lucifer. The King James version is the only version that has the name Lucifer.


That blew my mind when I learned it.



12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!




1. The Hebrew for this expression--"light-bringer" or "shining one"--is translated "Lucifer" in The Latin Vulgate, and is thus translated in the King James Version. But because of the association of that name with Satan, it is not now used in this and other translations. Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is erroneous. The application of the name to Satan has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isa. 14:12, which many authorities believe is not true. "Lucifer," the light-bringer, is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word "Phosphoros," which is used as a title of Christ in II Pet. 1:19 and corresponds to the name "radiant and brilliant Morning Star" in Rev. 22:16, a name Jesus called Himself. This passage here in Isa. 14:13 clearly applies to the king of Babylon.

By the way, is there any other reference to the fall of Lucifer/ Satan besides this? If not, that whole event may just be as a result of faulty translation.

[Krazy4Jesus]

Just a question and don't mean to get off topic, but while I was in college a friend of mine told me that demons were created by the joining of Lucifer "Satan" and Lilith. Has anyone ever heard of her? I've tried to do some studying on it, but haven't found a lot on her. From what he told me though, Lilith was the first woman. I've always been told it was Eve, but he said that was because the inquisition took out parts of the bible and that it was removed from the Jewish bible long ago to not let women think they were better than man. Hence, the reason why the second woman came from Adam's rib.

Anyways my point was that demons and fallen angels are different. Fallen angels fell with Satan and then Satan begot demons with Lilith. Lilith is mentioned in the bible but never really explained...does anyone know more about it?

Isaiah 34:14f
Wildcats shall meet with hyenas,
goat-demons shall call to each other;
there too Lilith shall repose,
and find a place to rest.
There shall the owl nest
and lay and hatch and brood in its shadow

This link is where I found some information on her.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

But back to topic...if demons and fallen angels are separate, then Job 38:7 could mean the morning stars were angels, of which Lucifer and some of the 1/3 of the angels were apart.

I don't know and it's just a guess. I've just always been told that Lucifer was cast into Earth after it was made as punishment. So if that makes sense as it being a place for his punishment, wouldn't it make sense that Earth came before the revolution in heaven? Whether man came before or after the falling of the angels, who knows?

[Cha Cha]

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;


Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This shows the Angels were already created and and rejoiced at the earth's foundations being laid.


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon(Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,


Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Sounds like an alien invasion to me.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

cast down... as to an athlete to a combantant

1) to cast down

a) to throw to the ground, prostate

2) to put in a lower place

a) to lay (down) a foundation

Satan is not cast to the earth but cast down by God.




Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Our war is Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Strongs 2032 epouranios {ep-oo-ran'-ee-os}

hi1) existing in heaven

a) things that take place in heaven

b) the heavenly regions

1) heaven itself, the abode of God and angels

2) the lower heavens, of the stars

3) the heavens, of the clouds

c) the heavenly temple or sanctuary

2) of heavenly origin or nature

gh [places]

Lucifer was cast out of heaven with 1/3 of the heavenly host(Rev. 12:9), but they have ruled in the heavenlies (Eph. 6:12 ) with access to God to accuse believers. The day is coming however when they will be cast to earth and the heavens will rejoice but the earth is in big big trouble.:fear

They will say they seeded humanity. Another part of the lie that Spiritual beings, ascended Masters and such are already proclaiming through people who channel them on pages all over the web.

[Miriam33]

I don't think he has yet to be thrown out of heaven. He still has access to the throne of God.
As per Revelation 12.
He has access? Why? Satan can be in Heaven now? I don't get it.:confused

[Eklektos]

Okay, not to derail the conversation, but some of the things mentioned here are SO far out of Christian Biblical context, I feel the need to comment.

Krazy4Jesus: Fallen angels fell with Satan and then Satan begot demons with Lilith.

This false story about "lilith" is mythology and mysticism. It's not Biblical at all. There are a some versions of the bible that translate one word in some places as lilith, but a more accurate translation is satyr or goat-demon. And NOWHERE in the Bible does it suggest that Adam had a wife before Eve. That's just wrong to even suggest! Here are a couple of articles if anyone wants to know more, but be careful reading about this kind of stuff as it can draw you away from the light.

http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/satyr.html
http://bible-history.com/isbe/S/SATYR/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
The role of Lilith as Adam's faithless wife has parallels with the ideas about Eve herself in the Unification theology of Sun Myung Moon.

[hr]

mikej: Demons may be the disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race

This is even MORE of a stretch and has NO Biblical foundation of any kind. What are you thinking here and where did you get such an idea? Do you suppose that God created humans before Adam and Eve, that satan tempted them, that Jesus gave his life for their redemtion, and then God started the same thing all over again, like we are some kind of hobby or something? Or perhaps you are thinking that God choose not to redeem them at all, just let the entire race die out and now allows their souls to run around on earth causing havoc for humans? When this idea is really thought through, it doesn't make any sense. And more importantly, it completely contradicts the Gospel.

Demons are most often in the Bible refered to as evil or unclean spirits. These are more than likely fallen angels. As for when Satan was kicked out of heaven and to the earth, this has confused me as well. Obviously satan existed by the time the Eve's temptation occured, and, it seems, he had already rebelled against God. He was on the earth then, but in Job we see he is standing before God. So, it seems to me that he was most likely expelled from Heaven as his home at the time his original rebellion - which appears to be some time after creation and before the fall. But he still has access, so he hasn't been banned from heaven yet. Perhaps that is what Rev is describing, when satan is banned from heaven for good. I'm not sure, but it is an interesting topic. Let's just make sure to keep the conversation Biblical.

[Krazy4Jesus]

I don't understand how he hasn't been cast down yet? Please explain? Satan and his minions, IMHO, have been here for a very long, long time. Wasn't it Satan who tried to tempt Jesus three times? If he isn't here yet, who could that have been? I don't think we'll ever know until the much anticipated day. I just can't see Satan having free range of heaven and earth. He visits?! It sounds too strange.

[Krazy4Jesus]

It wasn't wrong to suggest...it was unknowing. Hence my asking if anyone knew. I don't know all and won't claim to. I am not all knowing, but am interested in trying to understand and also interested in trying to help others understand. If we all knew the ins and outs of the bible we wouldn't be having such difficulty in discussing this topic. The bible has changed so many times and in so many ways. It has changed from language to language and even within a language, the meanings and words have been changed to make it more accurate. Whether we have the best bible ever, I won't know....but I do believe that since so much of it has changed...we don't truly know if it is all correct. I tend to believe that since it is the Word of G-d, that it should be and that any change that has occured in it, occurred to provide the current generation the right message of portrayal. However, we know that the bible is altered and has been altered from previous forms in sometimes "dramatic ways". The Gospels alone have so many differently worded copies, that it's hard to tell what's right. Not only that but the Gospel of Matthew alone has been changed in so many ways.

http://www.updated.org/matthew.shtml

My point is that I don't see it as wrong to question something when curious as to it's legitimacy. I don't know and therefore do not need to be made to feel that it is wrong to be curious;especially when that curiosity concerns a deeper meaning and explanation of the bible.

[DeeLeeKay]

Miriam,

I believe that Satan accuses the brethern before God. When he is thrown out of heaven he will no longer be able to do that.


Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[4everHis]

Interesting thread and it's easy to see how our thoughts can quicly be drawn off of the one we need to keep our eyes upon, Jesus.

To me, it doesn't matter when Satan was thrown out of heaven.
I simply have a faith and belief that He or "IT" was cast out.
More importantly, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and in Him
I live.

[savedsinner]

Satan tempted Eve. This means Satan had rebelled against God before man. Satan is a

created creature. Wouldn't that make Satans rebellion the original sin?

[Hi Hopes]

This is just my humble opinion.
Sin must have happened in heaven, "BEFORE" the creation of the earth and man.
Was not "JESUS" predestianed to be slain, before the foundation of the world?
WHY?

[Patty T]

We know Isaiah 14:12-21 describes the fall of Lucifer from heaven and what will eventually happen to him.

My understanding is there are three levels of heaven and that he cast cast out of the presence of God, but still has access as we can see from Job and other scriptures.

I believe this is another place in scripture that Jesus describes seeing Lucifer's fall, but can't remember where.

[savedandhappy1]

Not sure, but why couldn't he have been made long before the earth? Is there a day that it says and the God made angels and said it was good?

God made this universe in the Bible, but couldn't everything else already have been made?

I will have to go back and read Genesis again, cause for whatever reason I thought the devil was already in heaven before God started making things here. Don't know why just thought that.

[Bystillwaters]

[QUOTE=Krazy4Jesus].. The bible has changed so many times and in so many ways. It has changed from language to language and even within a language, the meanings and words have been changed to make it more accurate.

Whether we have the best bible ever, I won't know....but I do believe that since so much of it has changed...we don't truly know if it is all correct.
I tend to believe that since it is the Word of G-d, that it should be and that any change that has occured in it, occurred to provide the current generation the right message of portrayal.

However, we know that the bible is altered and has been altered from previous forms in sometimes "dramatic ways".

The Gospels alone have so many differently worded copies, that it's hard to tell what's right.

Not only that but the Gospel of Matthew alone has been changed in so many ways.


It sounds like you are saying the Bible has errors in it when you say:
I quote you:

"...we don't know if it is all correct" end quote

I have to disagree with you :freaked

I believe the Bible is without error
God cannot err
The Bible is the word of God

Therefore
The Bible is without error....it is infallible and authorative

I have heard some people say:
" well the Bible is not scientific'
So in a narrow sense they would claim the Bible is in error
in things of science :sad

( something I whole hardly disagree with....
God knows more about science than we ever will).

But on that basis............. a person who believes in "limited inerrancy"

Could then say the ressurection is a scientific "error" of the Bible.....

nope
I cannot agree with any errors in the Bible

And I know people claim there are even thousands of errors ......no way, do I believe that! I don't believe in even one error.

Either God is God
and He can see to it
that His word is without error............... as He is
Or He is not God.

Bystillwater's wife

[Bystillwaters]

double post sorry

[hannahrachel]

[QUOTE=Krazy4Jesus].. The bible has changed so many times and in so many ways. It has changed from language to language and even within a language, the meanings and words have been changed to make it more accurate.

Whether we have the best bible ever, I won't know....but I do believe that since so much of it has changed...we don't truly know if it is all correct.
I tend to believe that since it is the Word of G-d, that it should be and that any change that has occured in it, occurred to provide the current generation the right message of portrayal.

However, we know that the bible is altered and has been altered from previous forms in sometimes "dramatic ways".

The Gospels alone have so many differently worded copies, that it's hard to tell what's right.

Not only that but the Gospel of Matthew alone has been changed in so many ways.


It sounds like you are saying the Bible has errors in it when you say:
I quote you:

"...we don't know if it is all correct" end quote

I have to disagree with you :freaked

I believe the Bible is without error
God cannot err
The Bible is the word of God

Therefore
The Bible is without error....it is infallible and authorative

I have heard some people say:
" well the Bible is not scientific'
So in a narrow sense they would claim the Bible is in error
in things of science :sad

( something I whole hardly disagree with....
God knows more about science than we ever will).

But on that basis............. a person who believes in "limited inerrancy"

Could then say the ressurection is a scientific "error" of the Bible.....

nope
I cannot agree with any errors in the Bible

And I know people claim there are even thousands of errors ......no way, do I believe that! I don't believe in even one error.

Either God is God
and He can see to it
that His word is without error............... as He is
Or He is not God.

Bystillwater's wife

The other post you quoted by Krazy4Jesus, made me upset, I actually did not think some people believe that there are actual mistakes in the bible. I am with you either He is G-d or He isn't. I happen to believe all things are possible with G-d, and He and the Word are one! So there can be no errors, unless maybe someone has read it wrong!:nod YSIC hannahrachel :thumb

[Staemius]

I've always understood Satan (Lucifer) to be a member of God's court throughout the OT as the Adversary (and not in the Garden - just a snake).

[AnyDayNow]

...Did he try to take G-ds throne before the earth was formed?...

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. (NKJV)

I believe it happened before the world was created. :):

[Pendragon]

I guess one way I look at it as the really mean and nasty nieghbor down the street. The government has to wait till he has done enough to be kicked out of the heighbor hood. that is why micheal is sent at the code enforment angel

[Kathleen]

Before creation,he was thrown out of Heaven.

[AnyDayNow]

Before creation,he was thrown out of Heaven.

Yes. Then in Revelation, satan is cast down to (confined) earth after there is war in heaven. There was an interesting thread in the RDD forum a while back on this entire subject, and the gist I got was that there is a "change" in some mindsets as to what the second and third heavens consist of after this happens. :):

[Suzy]

Oh, I've got an interesting question...

Ok, the Bible doesn't give an account of exactly how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden. It does state that Adam was 130 when Seth was born. My question is... Could it be plausible that they had children while in the Garden? Now, if it were so... and they didn't sin along side Adam and Eve... Would their decendants still be in Eden?

[Krazy4Jesus]

It wasn't wrong to suggest...it was unknowing. Hence my asking if anyone knew. I don't know all and won't claim to. I am not all knowing, but am interested in trying to understand and also interested in trying to help others understand. If we all knew the ins and outs of the bible we wouldn't be having such difficulty in discussing this topic. The bible has changed so many times and in so many ways. It has changed from language to language and even within a language, the meanings and words have been changed to make it more accurate. Whether we have the best bible ever, I won't know....but I do believe that since so much of it has changed...we don't truly know if it is all correct. I tend to believe that since it is the Word of G-d, that it should be and that any change that has occured in it, occurred to provide the current generation the right message of portrayal. However, we know that the bible is altered and has been altered from previous forms in sometimes "dramatic ways". The Gospels alone have so many differently worded copies, that it's hard to tell what's right. Not only that but the Gospel of Matthew alone has been changed in so many ways.

http://www.updated.org/matthew.shtml

My point is that I don't see it as wrong to question something when curious as to it's legitimacy. I don't know and therefore do not need to be made to feel that it is wrong to be curious;especially when that curiosity concerns a deeper meaning and explanation of the bible.


Will you please read what I said, before you say that you can't believe what I put. I said that I know that there are alterations. We can not deny that changes have occurred. It's impossible to deny it. There are 50 different English versions alone. There are thousands of handwritten copies that all contain variations in them. I could put up webpage after webpage showing you that there are differences. Would you call those errors? I would...I'd call them human errors, not heavenly errors. They all have the same message though. The text differs, but the overall message they try to hint at remains the same. My point of what I wrote is that THERE ARE ALTERATIONS AND VARIATIONS. It's undeniable and don't be so close-minded to think that there aren't. We have to remember that the Gospels of the New Testament were at first much like the Old Testament. They were spread by word of mouth until they were written 40 years or more past the death of Christ. Not only this but these manuscripts were copied and copied by scribes. These scribes changed things to make it sound better in the language it was transcribed to. Take a message and try to make it the exact same in another language and you'll find that it's difficult to always convey the same message. That the idioms found in Hebrew might not be an idiom we understand. Perhaps we lack the lexicon to convey the exact word for word message, but I think that we can understand the overall message. This is the crux of what I want to say: Although the bible contains variations, I believe that it is unerring in what we need to know and that any changes within the bible were made because G-d wanted those changes to take place. I also believe that G-d is allowing us to find the past versions as ways of bringing back things that we need to know for today. Dead Sea Scrolls, Scrolls found in the caves of Qumran, the recent discoveries of more scrolls they all contain new information. Perchance it's not a new meaning, but a new form. I do believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d...and you shouldn't judge me by saying that what I believe is wrong. You can provide scripture after scripture saying that the Bible can not be different from what it is today, but there is proof all around us. Perhaps we are not interpreting the scripture right. The phrase could mean so many different things. The word of G-d could be taken literally as being word for word unerring as some of you think, the word could be just the overall message conveyed, the word could be anything. Who, but G-d, can tell us we are wrong? Why does it keep changing with the times and through language after language? I prefer to think that it's message is the word of G-d and that it evolves with time for each generation. Will you cast the first stone by speaking for G-d to say I'm wrong? I am human...remember this. I love the lord and I love the maker of all things and most importantly I believe through Christ is the way, but just like you I will make mistakes along the way. Don't take out certain phrases of what I say without reading the rest of what was said. You'd have seen that I believe the same thing you do. That it is perfect like Him. Perhaps perfection isn't in keeping every single word the same, but in the message.

I know there is scripture that says differently, such as:

Deuteronomy 4:2 reads: "YE SHALL NOT ADD unto the word which I command you, NEITHER SHALL YE DIMINISH ought from it . . ."

Proverbs 30:6, reads, "ADD THOU NOT unto his words . . ."

And just in case you missed it, G-D'S LAST WARNING is Revelation 22:18,19, ". . . If any man SHALL ADD unto these things. . . And if any man shall TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS of the book of this prophecy, G-d shall take away his part out of the book of life. . ."

Again though, the Bible you are reading has some additions to it and some deletions. THE NIV, NIV formatted (NT only), NKJV, NASB, RSV, KJV, Darby, YLT, and WE are all different in some way from one another. There are plenty of webpages about these differences.

HOWEVER, THE MEANING DOESN'T CHANGE! G-D LOVES YOU AND WANTS YOU TO BE GREAT PEOPLE. TO TAKE WHAT IS HERE AND GLORIFY HIM IN EVERY WAY YOU CAN. TO SPREAD THE MESSAGE TO EVERY PERSON THAT HAS AN EAR, EYE, OR TOUCH (ALL WORKING OR NOT). TO BELIEVE THAT THROUGH HIS SON IS THE WAY TO A HEAVEN SO WONDERFULLY FLAWLESS THAT THERE ARE NO WORDS TO DESCRIBE HOW BEAUTIFUL IT WILL BE.

[vesper]

Maybe when John says he saw where satan was thrown from Heaven means that was the FINAL time he was allowed to accuse us before God? I don't know, just thinking.

[Van Helsing]

This is even MORE of a stretch and has NO Biblical foundation of any kind. What are you thinking here and where did you get such an idea? Do you suppose that God created humans before Adam and Eve, that satan tempted them, that Jesus gave his life for their redemtion, and then God started the same thing all over again, like we are some kind of hobby or something? Or perhaps you are thinking that God choose not to redeem them at all, just let the entire race die out and now allows their souls to run around on earth causing havoc for humans? When this idea is really thought through, it doesn't make any sense. And more importantly, it completely contradicts the Gospel.


I think what he means are the giants (the semigods of mythology) who were the offspring of fallen angels and human women. There is a theory that says that they are neither angel nor human, so after they died (many in the great flood) they could not enter heaven or hell. So their spirits are still bound to the earth where they want to posses human bodies. Some say that it were these creatures were the unclean spirits that were cast out by Jesus. After the flood there were also giants (becouse some angels have sinned again) and Abraham, Moses, David have fought against these unnatural beings (Goliath, Talmai, Sesai and Achiman etc.) It's just a theory but it's a fascinating one. It could explain all the mythical stories about gods and semigods.

[Hi Hopes]

This just my thought's on it.
How about?
In the begining (of time) GOD created the heavens (2) and the earth.
The reason of this thinking is.
Eternety, has no "begining or end."
The 3rd Heaven is where GOD dwells.
Time started when sin was found in it.
Satan was cast out.

[Hi Hopes]

Thou shalt bumpeth.:):

[Paid In Full]

Will you please read what I said, before you say that you can't believe what I put. I said that I know that there are alterations. We can not deny that changes have occurred. It's impossible to deny it. There are 50 different English versions alone. There are thousands of handwritten copies that all contain variations in them. I could put up webpage after webpage showing you that there are differences. Would you call those errors? I would...I'd call them human errors, not heavenly errors. They all have the same message though. The text differs, but the overall message they try to hint at remains the same. My point of what I wrote is that THERE ARE ALTERATIONS AND VARIATIONS. It's undeniable and don't be so close-minded to think that there aren't. We have to remember that the Gospels of the New Testament were at first much like the Old Testament. They were spread by word of mouth until they were written 40 years or more past the death of Christ. Not only this but these manuscripts were copied and copied by scribes. These scribes changed things to make it sound better in the language it was transcribed to. Take a message and try to make it the exact same in another language and you'll find that it's difficult to always convey the same message. That the idioms found in Hebrew might not be an idiom we understand. Perhaps we lack the lexicon to convey the exact word for word message, but I think that we can understand the overall message. This is the crux of what I want to say: Although the bible contains variations, I believe that it is unerring in what we need to know and that any changes within the bible were made because G-d wanted those changes to take place. I also believe that G-d is allowing us to find the past versions as ways of bringing back things that we need to know for today. Dead Sea Scrolls, Scrolls found in the caves of Qumran, the recent discoveries of more scrolls they all contain new information. Perchance it's not a new meaning, but a new form. I do believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d...and you shouldn't judge me by saying that what I believe is wrong. You can provide scripture after scripture saying that the Bible can not be different from what it is today, but there is proof all around us. Perhaps we are not interpreting the scripture right. The phrase could mean so many different things. The word of G-d could be taken literally as being word for word unerring as some of you think, the word could be just the overall message conveyed, the word could be anything. Who, but G-d, can tell us we are wrong? Why does it keep changing with the times and through language after language? I prefer to think that it's message is the word of G-d and that it evolves with time for each generation. Will you cast the first stone by speaking for G-d to say I'm wrong? I am human...remember this. I love the lord and I love the maker of all things and most importantly I believe through Christ is the way, but just like you I will make mistakes along the way. Don't take out certain phrases of what I say without reading the rest of what was said. You'd have seen that I believe the same thing you do. That it is perfect like Him. Perhaps perfection isn't in keeping every single word the same, but in the message.

I know there is scripture that says differently, such as:

Deuteronomy 4:2 reads: "YE SHALL NOT ADD unto the word which I command you, NEITHER SHALL YE DIMINISH ought from it . . ."

Proverbs 30:6, reads, "ADD THOU NOT unto his words . . ."

And just in case you missed it, G-D'S LAST WARNING is Revelation 22:18,19, ". . . If any man SHALL ADD unto these things. . . And if any man shall TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS of the book of this prophecy, G-d shall take away his part out of the book of life. . ."

Again though, the Bible you are reading has some additions to it and some deletions. THE NIV, NIV formatted (NT only), NKJV, NASB, RSV, KJV, Darby, YLT, and WE are all different in some way from one another. There are plenty of webpages about these differences.

HOWEVER, THE MEANING DOESN'T CHANGE! G-D LOVES YOU AND WANTS YOU TO BE GREAT PEOPLE. TO TAKE WHAT IS HERE AND GLORIFY HIM IN EVERY WAY YOU CAN. TO SPREAD THE MESSAGE TO EVERY PERSON THAT HAS AN EAR, EYE, OR TOUCH (ALL WORKING OR NOT). TO BELIEVE THAT THROUGH HIS SON IS THE WAY TO A HEAVEN SO WONDERFULLY FLAWLESS THAT THERE ARE NO WORDS TO DESCRIBE HOW BEAUTIFUL IT WILL BE.

Couldnt of said it better myself!!!!!! This is the truth about the bible. All biblical scholars would agree with what you have said. Some things can not be transcribed into different languages without some alterations. But the message is what is the same. Remember, it is the LIVING WORD OF GOD, the book and text dont matter, its the message!