Tithing

[StinkerBell]

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there [This means on the Temple Mount], the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that [is] within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.


Ok I am wanting to discuss here...maybe this should be more of a study, dont know...BUT this passage is weighing on me.

Now, as I am reading it...Tithing is for us....that in the day a tithing was almost like a harvest festival. Also, with this scripture I am reading that we tith to the levites (which is the priest group, like our pastors today?) on the 3rd year a tenth or 3.33% per year?

[Timothy]

Just remember - If you believe that you obilgated to keep that one part of the law (3rd year a tenth or 3.33% per year), you are therefore obligated to keep the entire law.

What could be termed "grace living" is how the body of Christ lives under grace. Tithing under grace could be termed "grace giving." This study explains the approach under grace.

How Much Money Should You Give God?
By Pastor Richard Jordan

The issue of giving to the Lord is one that is greatly misunderstood and about which there is much false teaching today. For the most part, Christian teachers have taken two approaches to giving. Either they talk about it constantly and make it the only measure of faith and blessing or they completely ignore the issue because they don't want to be accused of being a "money hungry preacher". Neither approach is proper. What is needed is a careful study of what God has to say about giving.

The Root of All Evil

In the Apostle Paul's first letter to Timothy he speaks of the danger of money.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Notice that the danger in money is not the money itself, but rather our attitude about it. If in our own conscience, material gain is more important than the truth of God's Word we are on the road to erring from the faith and rejecting God's truth for filthy lucre's sake. In the Old Testament we see the leadership of the nation Israel rejecting God's truth for the reward of material gain. They made judgments based, not on God's truth, but on who was the highest bidder.

Micah 3:9-11 Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity. They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity. The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say Is not the LORD among us? None evil can come upon us.

In Paul's day the propensity of man to sell out the truth is seen in men like Demetrius, who was more concerned about his craft of idol-making than about who was really the living and true God.

Acts 19:24-27 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.. Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Rather than abandoning the truth for monetary gain, and making money our God, we should be using our money to promote the truth of God. Paul gives very specific instructions in his epistles about where our affections, and therefore our money, should be focused.

Colossians 3:1,2 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

1 Timothy 6:17,18 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy: That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

As we begin to look at the details of how much money we should give God, it is important that we keep in mind the general attitude that is to be evident in our dealings with our material goods. We should view our goods as tools to be used to further God's truth. Where our affections are will determine where our money goes.

The Attitude of Grace Giving

Under the law and kingdom programs the motivation to give to the Lord was fear. As with all other areas of the law, Israel was motivated to service in giving by the promise of blessing and the fear of cursing. This principle as it applies to giving can be clearly seen in the message to Israel from the prophet Malachi.

Malachi 3:8-10 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The fear factor can also be clearly seen in the kingdom program in the account of Ananias and Sapphira. After these people had lied about their commitment of giving, and been struck dead for their sin, we read the following sobering statement concerning the attitude of the kingdom church.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

It is easy to see how this type of curse for disobedience could bring fear to those that were living under this system. If we faced the possibility of being struck dead for failing to give properly to the Lord, we would certainly be very careful to give properly and very fearful about the consequences if we give improperly.

In addition to motivating out of fear, the giving of the law made God a debtor to the giver. Notice that in the passage above from Malachi, God says to Israel, "prove me". Giving, and for that matter all obedience under the law, makes God a debtor to the person performing the obedience. When a person obeys God's commandment under the law God becomes obligated to give him the appropriate blessing.

Thus God tells Israel to "prove" him, to demonstrate his faithfulness in giving the blessing He had promised. Giving, like all obedience under grace is not motivated by fear but by love. The motivation to serve in the Age of Grace is clearly set forth by the Apostle Paul in his second letter to the church at Corinth.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Our motivation to serve under grace should never be out of fear of being cursed by God. Fear of a curse is not a valid reason to serve the Lord in this Age of Grace. In addition, since God has already given us all the blessings which he has for us in this life, there can be no promise of additional blessing for obedience.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

As we can clearly see, we are not in a position of waiting for blessing in this Age of Grace, we have already been blessed in Christ. Because of this, our giving is no longer a way to prove God, it has now become a way to prove us. Notice carefully what Paul says to the church at Corinth as he writes to them about their giving toward a gift being taken for the poor saints at Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

Notice that giving in the Age of Grace is a means by which we are proved, not a means by which we prove God. Our attitude about giving in the Age of Grace is to be that we are giving out of a heart of love and gratitude for what God has already graciously done for us. Our giving must never be motivated by the fear of judgment or to try to gain additional blessing from God.

The Amount of Grace Giving

In time past, under the law and kingdom economies, the amount of giving was specified in great detail. In the book of Deuteronomy God gave Israel a specific percentage for their giving.

Deuteronomy 14:22,27,28 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. . . . And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. . . . At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year , and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

Time does not permit us to go into great detail on these issues, but as we study the passage above and others like it, it becomes evident that Israel was commanded to give 20% every year and 30% every third year. In addition, there were many other required givings under the law as well as the opportunity to give free will offerings.

As the kingdom is presented as being "at hand" in the earthly ministry of Christ and early Acts, the level of giving is increased dramatically.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 12:32,33a Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms:...

Acts 2:44,45 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

While the amount of giving in these two circumstances is different, it is clear that in each instance the specific amount was plainly spelled out. There could be no misunderstanding about the amount of giving God demanded under the law and kingdom programs. And, as we saw in the last section, those requirements were enforced with some very severe punishments if they were not met.

In this Age of Grace, we see no such commandments concerning the amount of our giving to the Lord. The Apostle Paul does, however, give us some principals which should guide us in determining the amount of our giving.

2 Corinthians 9:6,7 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Notice that in the above passage, Paul tells us that we are to purpose in our hearts. That means that we should prayerfully consider how much we can give to the Lord's work, just as we would consider any other financial commitment that we would make.

Our giving should be with a plan and a purpose, not based on how much we happen to have in our wallet on Sunday morning. Notice also that our giving is to be cheerful. You should give God as much as you can give Him and still have a cheerful attitude about it. If you can give $100 cheerfully, but you begrudge the 101st dollar then you should stop at $100. It is far better to give $100 with the proper attitude than $1,000,000 with a grudging heart.

Finally, we must remember that we will reap in direct proportion to where we sow. If we "invest" in spiritual things we will reap eternal, spiritual reward.

If we spend our money on corruptible things they, like all the rest of the world, will one day melt with a fervent heat. The amount or our giving in the Age of Grace is not governed by a specific regulation, as it was under the law and kingdom economies. The amount of our giving today is based upon the principles of grace revealed to us in Paul's epistles.

The Answer to Grace Giving

There is perhaps no greater blasphemy being taught today, and no greater sham being perpetrated on an unsuspecting public than the teaching of many preachers that God will somehow reward you with financial gain if you give to the Lord.

As with so much other false teaching today, this teaching comes from trying to apply the principles of the law to the Age of Grace. If you reread the passage from Malachi quoted earlier you will see that God did clearly promise a physical blessing to Israel if they would give of their tithes.

Nowhere in scripture is the Church, the Body of Christ, promised material gain as a result of our giving. In fact, in the life of the Apostle Paul, quite the opposite is true. Paul gave more to the cause of Christ than perhaps any other man that has ever lived, and yet he suffered great depravation. Paul went from a wealthy Pharisee at the top of Jewish society to a poor apostle who often didn't know where his next meal was coming from.

Galatians 1:13,14a For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation. . . .

2 Corinthians 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

What we can expect to receive as a result of our sacrificial giving is eternal glory

2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory:

Don't let anyone con you into giving them money for ministry with the false promise that God will return it "good measure, pressed down and shaken together, and running over".

As you give to the Lord, you should not be looking for material gain but rather eternal spiritual glory.

Giving in the Age of Grace is honored by God only if it is done in accord with the principles of grace and not in accord with the instructions for the law and the kingdom.

We must be sure that we are giving with the proper attitude, after carefully considering the amount, and that we are expecting the right answer from God in response to our giving.

[StinkerBell]

I am not trying to discuss grace giving. I am trying to discover what or how much I am required to tithe. It is very confusing. In old testament days (if I am correct here) tithing was also apart of taxes. It was also pointed out that Paul made tents as a living. Somehow the whole topic has now gotten my attention. I see alot of conflicting information.

[Timothy]

how much I am required to tithe.

How much are you required to tithe? Z-E-R-O. Under grace, our giving is not of any "requirement." The closest example that I can think of at the moment is "good works."

[antsinmypants]

I've been wanting to do a study on tithing for some time, but have been tied up with other studies at the moment.

There are different tithes, all for different amounts. The firstfruits of the land tithe, if one does live far away from Jerusalem and were to offer it at the temple or tabernacle, and obviously it won't be ripe by the time you get there, you are to convert it into $$ then cart the money over, buy what food and drink you wish, invite a levite to dinner and eat it within the temple or tabernacle compound.

Without the Temple, or at the very least, the altar being in place, one cannot give tithes as specified in scripture, but we can come pretty darn close. :):

[AWorker4Jesus]

(Luk 11:42) But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Why would it not be 10% as in the OT?

[StinkerBell]

what I was reading it would be 10% in the third year...making it 3.33% per year.

[Big Daddy]

Ok I am wanting to discuss here...maybe this should be more of a study, dont know...BUT this passage is weighing on me.

Now, as I am reading it...Tithing is for us....that in the day a tithing was almost like a harvest festival. Also, with this scripture I am reading that we tith to the levites (which is the priest group, like our pastors today?) on the 3rd year a tenth or 3.33% per year?

Are you a Jew?
If you are, then you are under the law.
As brother Timothy stated:
Just remember - If you believe that you obilgated to keep that one part of the law (3rd year a tenth or 3.33% per year), you are therefore obligated to keep the entire law.
If you are under the law, how can you keep it all without a temple?

You mentioned tithing to the LEvites and compared them to the priest and pastors of today.
If you are born again, you are a priest. (and a king)
If you are born again, you are not held to the law.
This was settled in Jeruselam, way back when:
Acts.15
[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
I am sure Ants will come in and show us all the details of tithing from a Jewish perspective.
I love her insite and it is very important to see this and to discern and divide.

I believe that in Jesus's day, the Jews took the letter of the law to the nth degree, and looked to follow the letter more than their heart.

MAtt.19
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Here we see a Jew who obviously followed the letter of the law, (we assume he must have tithed according to the law too) but we see his heart was in the wrong place. He walked away. Notice too, Jesus didn't go after him. He knew his heart. It was of this world, and not of doing God's Will.

So if you are born again, you have been given a new heart filled with the Holy Spirit. Why stifle the Spirit, by working the law?

Go and do God's Will and give freely. He gave His Son for you. He did this so you would have treasures in heaven.

Where in the four gospels does it say to give freely?
It doesn't. The gospels are a record of Jesus's ministry to Jews.
They would be tithing, as a good Jew would.

You mentioned Paul, being a tent maker.
Look in Acts here.
Acts.20
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Apparently he worked to support himself and not let other beleivers support him. This is in contrast to todays paid clergy. Not starting a debate on paid clergy, but you brought up Pauls "job" and made some connection to tithing or taxes.

Notice verse 35 above, Paul is quoting Jesus, but there is no other record of Jesus saying this in the gospels.

By the Grace of God we are saved. I beleive Jesus would have us extend that same grace to others by giving freely as the Spirit directs us.

If you feel compeled to limit that giving by some percentage of your income, then you are free to do it that way. As beleivers and part of the body of Christ, filled with the Spirit.
2Cor.3
[1] Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
[2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
[3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
[4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Tithe if you want, or don't tithe. But whether you do or don;t, do it for God.

[nooneuno]

By the Grace of God we are saved. I beleive Jesus would have us extend that same grace to others by giving freely as the Spirit directs us.
:thumb :nod :nod

We are not bound to any old testament laws.

Grace giving. Give of your best to the master.

[StinkerBell]

I am just trying to get a number.....No, I am not a Jew. Just because I am not a Jew does not mean that certain Laws to not obtain to me. Am I not grafted in? and if I recall correctly even Jesus reaffirmed Law. I am not saved by the law, this is true. But am I suppose to ignore the law? if that is so then I cold be able to indulge in all sorts of sin.

[cameron222]

Well Stinker then you need to convince your preacher that Saturday is the true Sabbath and move the services to then. :):

Also make sure he doesn't wear a suit with mingled fabrics (like wool/polyester) because it is against the Jewish law to mingle fabrics.

And the Jews also seperated the sexes during worship.

You've got a lot of changes to implement if you are going to follow the law.

[StinkerBell]

Well Stinker then you need to convince your preacher that Saturday is the true Sabbath and move the services to then. :):

Also make sure he doesn't wear a suit with mingled fabrics (like wool/polyester) because it is against the Jewish law to mingle fabrics.

And the Jews also seperated the sexes during worship.

You've got a lot of changes to implement if you are going to follow the law.
I am just trying to find a number and the balance between law and grace.
and BTW we do have saturday service :P (so there).

I dont get it...I was trying to open up some dialogue and instead of talking with me it seems like you all want to talk at me.....

:TSK ON YOU


By The Way...I KNOW I AM A BETTER RR MEMBER THEN YOU :P
(no rule on that statement :heh)

[blitzkreig]

In Jesus's day, taxation would look like this:

10% EMPIRE: food spoils-of-war tax to Rome; 20% of fruits; Gen. 14:20

10%+ PROVINCE: King Herod's tax: 1 Sam. 8:14-17

10%: RELIGIOUS: food tithes; Numbers. 18:20-26

10%: FESTIVALS: food tithe, Deut. 12:6-7; 14:22-23

[? 3 1/3%: POOR TITHE (10% every third year): Welfare, Deut. 14:28-29; 26:12-13

PLUS: road taxes; bridge taxes; temple shekel; free-will offerings;

and many other religious and royal taxes

TOTAL: 40% BARE MINIMUM TOTAL TAXATION

.

[StinkerBell]

In Jesus's day, taxation would look like this:

10% EMPIRE: food spoils-of-war tax to Rome; 20% of fruits; Gen. 14:20

10%+ PROVINCE: King Herod's tax: 1 Sam. 8:14-17

10%: RELIGIOUS: food tithes; Numbers. 18:20-26

10%: FESTIVALS: food tithe, Deut. 12:6-7; 14:22-23

[? 3 1/3%: POOR TITHE (10% every third year): Welfare, Deut. 14:28-29; 26:12-13

PLUS: road taxes; bridge taxes; temple shekel; free-will offerings;

and many other religious and royal taxes

TOTAL: 40% BARE MINIMUM TOTAL TAXATION

.
How does that work out for today?

[blitzkreig]

How does that work out for today?It doesn't. We are not under the Law (as many have tried to point out to you).

But if you are going to attempt to tithe at least do is right. Ante up. :thumb

.

[cameron222]

:whip Open up that wallet Jiggy!!

[StinkerBell]

It doesn't. We are not under the Law (as many have tried to point out to you).

But if you are going to attempt to tithe at least do is right. Ante up. :thumb

.
Well thats not the impression that Mercifully Saved thread was saying (to me)...I got the impression he was going to Hell.

[blitzkreig]

It is the greatest disappointment in heaven I'm sure that the leaders in what is supposed to be the organized "church" in this era are steeped in what is nothing short of larceny.

The very worst are some of the TV preachers. Nothing less than greedy manipulators. I don't think the Pharisees were that bold.

:tsk

[blitzkreig]

Well thats not the impression that Mercifully Saved thread was saying (to me)...I got the impression he was going to Hell.If one could actually buy their way out of hell it would make the Catholics correct. I doubt that will happen.

:B:

[StinkerBell]

I feel so conflicted!

[blitzkreig]

Repeat after me ... "we are saved by Grace not by works" ...

[StinkerBell]

~snort~

I understand that....But I have an issue with the concept that laws dont apply. I know I am not alwas clear in my thought process with you guys (gosh darn it, I expect you to know what I am thinking). What I emant earlier about being under some laws....well Jesus for example changed the law of food, so the old food laws dont apply. Jesus went heavy on that lust thing, personally I should be blind with no eyes at this point in my life. So, when I say some laws apply (this isnt about laws that get meinto heaven) its about the laws God has designed for us to help in our walk.



btw I do appreciate everyone patience with me....:becky Thanks

[Big Daddy]

I am just trying to get a number.....No, I am not a Jew. Just because I am not a Jew does not mean that certain Laws to not obtain to me. Am I not grafted in? and if I recall correctly even Jesus reaffirmed Law. I am not saved by the law, this is true. But am I suppose to ignore the law? if that is so then I cold be able to indulge in all sorts of sin.
Certain laws do apply if you want to follow them.
Personally, I wouldn't. Jews can't, so why would I think I can.

Besides, my debt has been paid.

I was saved, when Jesus was crucified. He paid my debt on that cross.
This is done, it's in my past, it can't be taken away. "It is finished"
I am being saved presently, moment by moment. THis is the work of the Holy Spirit.
I will be saved from sin in the future when I am given a new uncorruptable body that is, well, uncorruptable.

Right now, I am dead to sin, but still trapped in this corruptable body that is of flesh, and of this world. But my heart is set on higher things.

Nope, can't indulge in all sorts of sin.
I guess my point is lost.

Jesus came and preached to Jews to fulfill prophesy.
He was preaching the Kingdom.

He performed miracles only the Messiah could do. The Jewish leaders knew what these were and observed Him do them. Yet, they still rejected Him, as they were more intent on keeping their worldy positions and possesions then submit to a man they didn;t even think worthy to be their king. They were expecting a worldy king.

So Jesus cursed that generation and about 38 years later, the temple was destroyed, and the jews were dispersed. (to this day)

With the temple gone, the law could not be upheld. So the Jews started to bring in traditions and other teachings of rabbi's and came up with the Talmud.
Here is a def of Talmud:
The Talmud (תלמוד) is considered an authoritative record of rabbinic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi) discussions on Jewish law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha), Jewish ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethics), customs, legends and stories. It is a fundamental source of legislation, customs, case histories and moral exhortations. The Talmud comprises two components, the Mishnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah), and the Gemara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemara), a discussion of the Mishnah (though the terms Talmud and Gemara are generally used interchangeably). It expands on the earlier writings in the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah) in general and in the Mishnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah) in particular, and is the basis for all later codes of Jewish law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha), and much of Rabbinic literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_literature). The Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (a Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language) abbreviation of shishah sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah).
This moving away from Mosaic law continued till today we can see many Jewish "denominations".

This by no means implies that God is finished with the Jew.
Some Christians beleive God has divorced Israel and now extends the promises and covenants He made with Israel to the Church.
Not so!
God made promises to Israel, and He delights in keeping His Word.

The Jewish leadership rejected Jesus because their hearts were hardened.
The Jewish people blindly followed their leaders. (not all of them, hate to use a broad brush here)

Jesus called them (the leaders) hippocrates, for not doing the law for the right motives. Throughout the gospels He repeatadly points to the condition of their hearts.
Here is some neat verse that seems to apply.
Acts.15
[5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
So these Pharsees were Christians (which believed) and they had this idea that gentiles who came to believe in Jesus had to become Jews first and keep the Law.
Peter (and the elders at Jeruselam determined that gentiles were saved by God's Grace, and not in any keeping of the law.
Notice the last verse in the quote?
Despite the Jews keeping the law, they would be saved just like the gentiles. He turned it around. It's not "the gentiles will be saved even as the Jews are", but turned around.

In the big plan (God's Plan) it couldn;t happen any other way.
The crucifiction of Jesus wasn't a travesty, it was an accomplishment.

It is to God's Glory that in His Wisdom He has devised a plan that would bring salvation to all, offered to the Jew first, and then to the gentile.

So if your question is how much does one give to ones church, I would suggest you pray on it and let the Spirit that indwells your heart be your guide.

You could subject yourself to some religious rule that is imposed on you too.

Either way, do it to God's Glory as it is only by His Grace that you should even be concerned with such things anyway.

Want more to think about?
You mentioned taxes at one point.

Is it right to give to God (tithe, or any other charitable donation) and then ask for part of it back in some tax deduction?

"Here is my tithe God, but I want part back on April 15th"
Just a thought :-)

[Big Daddy]

I am just trying to find a number and the balance between law and grace.
and BTW we do have saturday service :P (so there).

I dont get it...I was trying to open up some dialogue and instead of talking with me it seems like you all want to talk at me.....

:TSK ON YOU


By The Way...I KNOW I AM A BETTER RR MEMBER THEN YOU :P
(no rule on that statement :heh)
I appologize sister :hug

Bottom line is do what your heart tells you to do.
That is what Jesus wants.

[blitzkreig]

:amen Big Daddy :thumb

[Big Daddy]

I feel so conflicted!

Perhaps the conflict is between God's Word, (the Truth that the Spirit will guide you in), and some religion.

We'll have plenty of opportunity to live the Law in the millenium, but it will be written in our hearts.

For now, we have to settle for Grace. :):

[blitzkreig]

For now, we have to settle for Grace. :): Big Daddy your posts show a very mature understanding of correctly dividing Scripture.

Pleased to meet you. :wave

.

[StinkerBell]

does anyone at all at least understand me a little?

:becky

[blitzkreig]

does anyone at all at least understand me a little?

:beckyI most certainly do understand. Been there. Done that. Correct me it I'm wrong ...

You are thinking how does one differentiate between the scripture which applies to us today as Christians in the 21st Century vs others in times past ... perhaps even Israel?

.

[StinkerBell]

yes and no :heh

ok, first we all need to think like a woman....

Its more about direction...Proverbs is problably one of my favorite books. Tells us how to walk right with the Lord. Kinda like how we tell our children about becarefull who you hang with. If they are bad, people will think you are bad......I believe the laws are not given to us as a punishment but as instruction to help us walk with him. I just want to know how to walk. I know its covered by grace my entrance to heaven, but I am not in heaven I am here on earth and I want to walk with him. I think laws are a gift.

[Jiggy37]

:whip Open up that wallet Jiggy!!:confused How am I involved in this? :lol

[coltrek]

We ought to give by grace.
Luke 19:8
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
and
Mark 12:38-44
The Widow's Offering
41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts.
42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.
43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others.
44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

[antsinmypants]

Also make sure he doesn't wear a suit with mingled fabrics (like wool/polyester) because it is against the Jewish law to mingle fabrics.


This is false. It pertains only to wool and flax (or cotton, which is much the same).

Why? One is animal, one is plant. We're not to mix plant and animal-- why? Because G-d said so.

Polyester is from oil, and mixing it with cotton or other "plant derivitives"... wouldn't be wrong according to Torah.

The prohibition also has to do with what the Preists were wearing, and seperating the caste from the others in the assembly of Israel.

Therefore, it has no bearing on any other fabrics, unless it's plant/animal mixing which falls under the ruling of not mixing seeds. :):



Therefore,

And the Jews also seperated the sexes during worship.


No, not really. Men met in the women's court in the Temple to worship, the Levites were in there preaching AND playing musical instruments.

On the Feast days, women were singing, dancing and playing musical instruments WITH the men, and worshipping together.

The seperation came after the destruction of the Temple.

[antsinmypants]

Personally, I wouldn't. Jews can't, so why would I think I can.


Actually, that isn't what scripture says. Scripture allows that it is able to be followed, but from the get-go, the people rebelled. Y'shua came to SHOW US that it can be done if done in the right Spirit. Paul also affirmed this.

Besides, my debt has been paid.

The sin debt is something different than what G-d said do and don't.
The Sin debt was set to be paid from Genesis 3.


With the temple gone, the law could not be upheld.

Certain aspects can, and it is generally understood with prophesy, as well as Torah, that wilst the Temple or the Tabernacle are not present, we are to pay service with our lips, our hands and feet: doing what we can for everyone else-- taking care of everyone to the best of our advantage, until things are restored before the Return of Messiah.


So the Jews started to bring in traditions and other teachings of rabbi's and came up with the Talmud.

False. Talmud was around BEFORE the Destruction of Herod's temple. It was around at the time of the Babylonian captivity.

There are actually TWO Talmuds. The Babylonian and the Jerusalem Talmud.



So these Pharsees were Christians (which believed) and they had this idea that gentiles who came to believe in Jesus had to become Jews first and keep the Law.

Actually this is an incorrect misconception, but it can easily be overcome.

There are different divisions within the Pharisees. Some go from strict literal interpretation of the Scriptures, to very silly things, and some as far as nullifying scriptures. You find Y'shua combatting ALL but those who were actually fufilling scripture as it says to be done.

You also find Paul and the disciples doing the same thing. In fact, *all* of Paul's teachings come from a Scripturalist-Pharisaic perspective (Of that time). It affirms what Y'shua taught, and what was laid before the advent of the sect.

Peter (and the elders at Jeruselam determined that gentiles were saved by God's Grace, and not in any keeping of the law.

Ok, here's another misconception, also easily corrected. Peter and the others affirmed that *EVERYONE* Is saved by grace, but that this doesn't nullify what G-d says to do or not do.

What we also miss is that the directives of the prohibitions given-- are from Leviticus 11-19, which is considered the HEART of Torah. These are considered a first step for *any* believer to come and worship with the group, so that they are convicted of what G-d says, and are open to the things being read in scripture.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the nationss are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Why is the last line essential? Because that's where scripture was being read, and that's where the early believers were meeting. Where the scripture was being read. UNTIL the Bar Kochba revolt... and one finds that the homes being met in-- were usually those of synogogoue leaders-- those who had access to the scriptures.

What is also ignored, is that for the most part 90% of believers do not even keep this part that the disciples said was *essential* as a first step in the walk as believers.

This pertains to (Pollution from idols):

Don't worship Idols.
Don't go into temples to idols.
Don't stylize your worship of YHVH after Idol worship.
Don't eat things offered to idols if you know it is.


This pertains to (Fornication):

No adding idol worship in with biblical worship.
No worship of idols (anything other than G-d).
No having sex outside of marriage, No having sex before marriage, no having sex with anyone other than your spouse... this also goes into no bigamy/polygamy.


This pertains to (Things strangled) the following:

Don't eat any food that hasn't been killed according to scripture. (Aka strangled).
Eat how G-d said to.

This pertains (Abstaining from blood) to the following:

When you make a kill for food, you are to be sure it has been "Feild dressed" (aka, kosher slaughtered, per scripture).
Eating food that is cooked THOROUGHLY!
Not having marital relations at a certain time of the month... or if one has other "issues".

This pertains (not eating things pulled from live animals or animals that have died of themselves) to:

Not eating road kill. (Aka no cajun food unless you know it was slaughtered right)
Not eating the leg from Billy's goat and allowing him to roam until you need more...

This is considered by the disciples as essential for anyone who wishes to be clean INSIDE and OUTSIDE when worshipping G-d.

By the Jerusalem Council, it was seen as essential to begin one's walk as a believer, to further learn scripture.


This all entails so much, and it is often not taught.
What we are taught is "It says this" and we skip where it comes from, and how it came to be, and even what is written of these apostles and their disciples, and why they felt this essential as a beginning step.

[antsinmypants]

We ought to give by grace.

All of our giving is to be given liberally and not of a stingy heart. Grace enters where obedience follows ;):

Luke 19:8
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."


But, what little people know, this principle comes from Torah. If one took more than they should, they're to pay back 4 times the amount taken.

What is Zacchaeus showing? He repents, he's turning back, and doing what G-d said when it comes to stealing people's items. Returning 4-fold.

[Big Daddy]

Greetings Ants, I knew you would help us understand :):
This is false. It pertains only to wool and flax (or cotton, which is much the same).

Why? One is animal, one is plant. We're not to mix plant and animal-- why? Because G-d said so.

Polyester is from oil, and mixing it with cotton or other "plant derivitives"... wouldn't be wrong according to Torah.

The prohibition also has to do with what the Preists were wearing, and seperating the caste from the others in the assembly of Israel.

Therefore, it has no bearing on any other fabrics, unless it's plant/animal mixing which falls under the ruling of not mixing seeds. :):






No, not really. Men met in the women's court in the Temple to worship, the Levites were in there preaching AND playing musical instruments.

On the Feast days, women were singing, dancing and playing musical instruments WITH the men, and worshipping together.

The seperation came after the destruction of the Temple.
Do you follow these rules pertaining to the mixing of wool and flax?

[antsinmypants]

Greetings Ants, I knew you would help us understand :):

Do you follow these rules pertaining to the mixing of wool and flax?

Yes. I do not wear wool as it's impossible to not find it without cotton, and i do not like it's feel. :):

Aka, even my Tzits are cotton :):

[StinkerBell]

Yes. I do not wear wool as it's impossible to not find it without cotton, and i do not like it's feel. :):

Aka, even my Tzits are cotton :):
Ok, what exactly is that?

[Joshua's Gen]

http://www.hitchams.suffolk.sch.uk/synagogue/images/objects/tallith.jpg

see this prayer shawl?

the strings on the end are tzit-tzits :):

Otherwise known as the fringes. (of His garment)

The woman with an issue of blood touched Yshua's tzit-tzits in order to be healed.

Which was a fulfillment of...

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
Malachi 4:2

[StinkerBell]

Thank You..

[antsinmypants]

The end fringes that are tied are Tzit-tzit. They're to have a blue dyed cord per scripture, but it doesn't say they must be from snail, or wool, which is an argument in Talmud actually that it's to be wool and from the snail... There's also argument how it should be tied.

I know of four different ways off the top of my head that it could be tied...

The command comes from here:

Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.



here is the most popular tying in the Ashkenazic communities:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/tallit-tefillin/Tzitzit.jpg

[StinkerBell]

I had an inclination what it was. Just wanted to mae sure....Every now and then I am off in space.

[antsinmypants]

I think we all are once in a while http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/115.gif

[Joshua's Gen]

The way I see it, the tithe pre-dated the 'Law', so the argument you're binding yourself under the Law' is a void one.

[semperfidelis]

I am not trying to discuss grace giving. I am trying to discover what or how much I am required to tithe. It is very confusing. In old testament days (if I am correct here) tithing was also apart of taxes. It was also pointed out that Paul made tents as a living. Somehow the whole topic has now gotten my attention. I see alot of conflicting information.

Stinker, the tithe literally means a 10th. I was taught that it is based on your increase.

offerings and alms are above and beyond that are up to the individual.

[semperfidelis]

The way I see it, the tithe pre-dated the 'Law', so the argument you're binding yourself under the Law' is a void one.

If it was before the law how is it binding under the law?

[StinkerBell]

Stinker, the tithe literally means a 10th. I was taught that it is based on your increase.

offerings and alms are above and beyond that are up to the individual.
Ok the highlighted area is what is stumping me.....I thought I had mentioned this before...maybe in a diferent thread...Does that mean if I get a raise this year that I give 10% of my raise?

[Joshua's Gen]

If it was before the law how is it binding under the law?

Uh,yeah.

I'm sayin it was before the Law, so the argument tithing puts one under the Law is an argument that's not valid IMHO.

[ShoutToTheLord]

This is just my opinion on tithing today but not something I practice .

I think one should look at a years worth of expenses and find out how much you are spending on everything that is not shelter ( house, rent payment), food and basic bills like electricity, heat, clothing etc.... add those things up and make sure you are tithing over and above that total yearly. If not, then you must get rid of a few fun, not necessary things because your balance is out of portion.
What I am saying is if we are spending more on cable, internet, vacations, etc....then what we are either giving to the church or some other Christian ministry then we need to rethink our prioities( can't spell today).

I have not personally done this because my dh is the spiritually head of the house and he likes the 10% way of thinking. But I know that we are tithing above these expendures because we do very little in the 'fun area' but I am going to double check on our figures at the end of this year and if need be adjust our tithing( if dh agrees.)

Everyone must be happy with what they give otherwise your gift is more like union or club dues than a gift to the Lord.

[AWorker4Jesus]

Ok, what exactly is that?
:laugh :lol

I am still laughing about it!! I was gonna ask the same thing!

[blitzkreig]

OK all you tithers, just so I know ... do you feel it makes any difference as to what the Church actually uses the money for, do you still think God will bless you because of your giving?

.

[wilberforce15]

I don't tithe for blessing; I tithe to obey. I also seek to have joy and gladness in my tithing - for that is equally commanded.

And the tithe is to support my shepherds - those who I follow as they follow Christ. If they are utterly irresponsible with the money I give, they are the ones that will give an account to God for it, not the ones who were faithful to give. If they are extremely unwise and sinful in their handling of the gifts of the body, it is time to find a new local body that I can give to with a clear conscience. But either way, my responsibility to do so is not diminished.

[antsinmypants]

OK all you tithers, just so I know ... do you feel it makes any difference as to what the Church actually uses the money for, do you still think God will bless you because of your giving?

Right now I'm trying to do a study on what kind of giving the scriptures actually talk about, so I know better how to give. I can see helping for the upkeep of the building, paying the teachers I learn from, giving to the poor, the widows & fatherless... etc...

But I want to know what the true perameters are. Yes I have problems with some of the projects that are paid for at my congregation and I've ceased giving to them. I had been giving to charities and to the teachers I was learning from.

:noidea

[cjcfreedom]

I don't tithe for blessing; I tithe to obey. I also seek to have joy and gladness in my tithing - for that is equally commanded.

And the tithe is to support my shepherds - those who I follow as they follow Christ. If they are utterly irresponsible with the money I give, they are the ones that will give an account to God for it, not the ones who were faithful to give. If they are extremely unwise and sinful in their handling of the gifts of the body, it is time to find a new local body that I can give to with a clear conscience. But either way, my responsibility to do so is not diminished.


Jesus wants us to be good stewards of our money. :freaked --

If we are foolish enough to give our money to those who will consume it on themselves and not do the will of God, you think God won't hold you accountable! You can't shake that dust off your feet and say, well I gave it to them and they were crooks, but I gave it to them cause they said it was the tithe. Shall I give my money to Baal and say I am giving it to the Lord? God forbid! YOu will be held accountable for every talent the Lord gives you. YOU will be held accountable. :doh

There are so many people who have legit needs (not wants) all around you. No you won't get a receipt that you can deduct from your taxes for it, but you'll be storing up your treasure in heaven! :clap

I have a friend that gave her tithes to her church. She lived in the worse ghetto in Chicago. I told her please move. She worked for the SBC and mind you this was years ago, she made very good money. I did her taxes every year so I know. She way more than tithes to her church. However, most of the time she didn't have lights or gas in her house, but she gave her tithes. She had three children, 2 of them boys ripe for the gang bangers. But she refused to move because she said if she moved out, she couldn't afford to pay her tithes. Well long story short. Her eldest son was shot and killed right on her front doorstep (drive by shooting). But the minister where she went to churched lived in a $500,000 home and he had several cars and trucks his wife dripped in diamonds. And he yelled from teh Pulpit "Tithe, tithe, tithe." Finally, after she lost her eldest son she finally moved out into a better neighborhood and now she's living so much better and not paying any tithes!

There are so many people in this nation that have lost jobs, and are losing their homes, etc. There are so many people you could be a blessing to rather than give your money to false preachers. So foolish! :yell :fear

[semperfidelis]

OK all you tithers, just so I know ... do you feel it makes any difference as to what the Church actually uses the money for, do you still think God will bless you because of your giving?

.

This is my opinion. I think we need to use prayer and discernment on where to place our tithes and allow God to speak to us on that issue.

Having said that I do not think that the tither is held responsible because something potentially went wrong after he or she gave the money cheerfully into the kingdom. This is about the heart and worship not about dollars or impact and God uses all things for good. The tither did what they were called to do, beyond that the issue is then with the Church and or steward that is then controlling the funds.

Once the tither releases the funds it is out of their hands. That is the beauty of the tithe, you are releasing the money freely into the kingdom with no strings attached.

God blesses the fact that you did what you were called to do.

[Gordon b]

OK all you tithers, just so I know ... do you feel it makes any difference as to what the Church actually uses the money for, do you still think God will bless you because of your giving?
Well, good question. My family tithes because we want to. We are happy with what our money is used for. I guess that is a blessing.

1. We have a nice church building. When it got to small we built an addition, Now it's getting to small again. We could stay crowded until some people left but I would rather see it grow.

2. We have a great staff and we pay them very well. We could get by with less but it wouldn't be as good.

3. We have a great youth group that is very active. We send them on mission trips every year. It costs a lot to send a bunch of kids to Zambia or Russia. Over the years I have seen quite a few of the kids grow up and go into the ministry. I guess that is worth something.

4. We help support missionaries and ministries in other countries. We have gained lasting friendships around the world. Some of the people affected by these missions have visited us at our church. I can't seem to put a value on a soul but it seems like a fair return for my buck.

5. We built a church in a small town in Russia. Seemed like a crazy idea at first but you can buy a lot of russian building materials with US dollars.
Ten years latter and we have friends in Russia that are just like family.

I have never heard a sermon on tithing at my church. I have never been made to feel that people need to give more.
We don't give to expect a blessing but have never failed to recieve one.
I don't know if the phrase "You get what you pay for" applies but it seems to.

[blitzkreig]

This is my opinion. I think we need to use prayer and discernment on where to place our tithes and allow God to speak to us on that issue.

Having said that I do not think that the tither is held responsible because something potentially went wrong after he or she gave the money cheerfully into the kingdom. This is about the heart and worship not about dollars or impact and God uses all things for good. The tither did what they were called to do, beyond that the issue is then with the Church and or steward that is then controlling the funds.

Once the tither releases the funds it is out of their hands. That is the beauty of the tithe, you are releasing the money freely into the kingdom with no strings attached.

God blesses the fact that you did what you were called to do. So if you don't know it don't hurt you?

How about if you do know ... how about giving to the "tour the holy land with Billy Graham's daughter" fund or perhaps giving to the fund to "pay off the church parking lot mortgage" do you still consider this your "tithe"? Or as you point out is it better if you don't know what the preacher has in mind for your money ... :confused

What if you are a preacher? Does it matter what you spend God's money doing?

The tithe in the Old Testament had a very tight set of specificaitons on who "ate" what part of the tithe.

.

[CountryBumpkin]

I don't tithe as I do not attend any church but I give wherever I feel led to.
At the moment I am helping to support my mother and I support a single mother of three, which I do anonymously. I have such a joy out of giving, I give away lots of stuff, make meals for others, donate to certain ministries on the internet etc.
Is this a form of tithing or is it a gift of the Spirit?
I have no conviction at all about tithing to a church Is this wrong? :confused
I would really like to know.

[blitzkreig]

I don't tithe as I do not attend any church but I give wherever I feel led to.
At the moment I am helping to support my mother and I support a single mother of three, which I do anonymously. I have such a joy out of giving, I give away lots of stuff, make meals for others, donate to certain ministries on the internet etc.
Is this a form of tithing or is it a gift of the Spirit? What ever you want to call it ... it is more aligned with the new testament than all of the tithing I have ever seen folks post about.
I have no conviction at all about tithing to a church Is this wrong? :confused
I would really like to know. I think you are an example to many of us ... :nod

.

[Big Daddy]

I don't tithe as I do not attend any church but I give wherever I feel led to.
At the moment I am helping to support my mother and I support a single mother of three, which I do anonymously. I have such a joy out of giving, I give away lots of stuff, make meals for others, donate to certain ministries on the internet etc.
Is this a form of tithing or is it a gift of the Spirit?
I have no conviction at all about tithing to a church Is this wrong? :confused
I would really like to know.
Your giving where the Spirit directs you?
You get much joy out of doing it?
Anonymously, ta boot?
Feeling no conviction in doing it this way?

You GOT IT!!
This is a gift from the Spirit, praise God! :thumb

[CountryBumpkin]

Than you Blitzkreig and BigDaddy for your kind words.

[andi]

Exd 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

****************

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[semperfidelis]

So if you don't know it don't hurt you?

How about if you do know ... how about giving to the "tour the holy land with Billy Graham's daughter" fund or perhaps giving to the fund to "pay off the church parking lot mortgage" do you still consider this your "tithe"? Or as you point out is it better if you don't know what the preacher has in mind for your money ... :confused

What if you are a preacher? Does it matter what you spend God's money doing?

The tithe in the Old Testament had a very tight set of specificaitons on who "ate" what part of the tithe.

.

Are you asking me if we should be good stewards with Gods money? Yes we should. That means in all areas.

This is what have been taught and believe. The Tithe is designed to be 10% and is to be released into the kingdom - most likely to the place you are being fed the most, like your local Church.

If you uneasy about the stewardship of the Church or do not feel they are producing good fruit then I would question why you even going to that Church, let alone putting your tithe there. I would recommend that you spend some quality time in prayer about where to put your money. I would also check the fruits of the Church or organization your putting your tithe into.

The second thing to consider is this. Tithes are not to be directed once we release them. The tithe is to be given with no direction or strings attached, I have been taught that we release it freely without direction. For example, when I give me tithe I do not mark it down for the building fund or try to direct where it goes or how it is used.

Now, offerings are above and beyond the 10% and can be directed and given to any organization. I personally try to direct those to things like missionary organizations and things like that.

If you want to go beyond that there is what is referred to as the Alm and that is giving to the poor. This can also be directed by your hand if you wish to do that.

Once again, I think that if you are directed by the spirit to give and you do, you cannot be held responsible for potential misuse of funds after the fact. I mean how can you possibly control that. You did everything you were instructed to do and I think God is going to bless that effort. God does not instruct you to control the funds, he instructs you to give the funds freely.

[WisdmInTheWorks]

OK all you tithers, just so I know ... do you feel it makes any difference as to what the Church actually uses the money for, do you still think God will bless you because of your giving?

.

It doesn't make any difference to me what the church uses the money for. I am giving the tithe to God. The caretakers of the tithe will have to answer to God if it's misused. (Thus far I have not seen it misued.) And my tithes are just that, thithes; not building fund, youth group, missions, etc. These groups are included in my offerings which is above my tithes.

I know God blesses me because of my giving to him:

Luk 6:38 Give, and good measure will be given to you, pressed down and shaken together, and running over, they will give into your bosom. For the same measure which you measure, it will be measured back to you.