My church now EXPECTS me to tithe

[MercifullySaved]

Our church is moving from renting out a local school cafeteria for services to a very prominent location on a very busy road. We're also changing from non-denominational to being a Calvary Chapel church.
I have been asked to attend these meetings for church leadership, and was given a list of things that are expected of me. One of them was that I tithe AT LEAST 10%. This just makes me absolutely nauseous. First of all, I don't even have a job. If they want to figure out what 10% of nothing is, by all means, be my guest. Second, there is no Biblical mandate to tithe 10%. If you want to be technical about it, tithing in the OT was around 30%, not 10%. Third, for them to expect something like that of me totally diminishes my giving spirit. I do give to the church, even though I'm a full-time, unemployed student. I do it because I have a heart that wants to give. But to think that this is expected of me...ugh, that's just not right.
How does everyone else feel about something like this?

[StinkerBell]

I also expect 10% of your earning to be tithed to chat.

OR option B is double of what your giving right now.

BTW
I love you Toby But I love your Wife more.

[MercifullySaved]

:hug Noelle
I needed a good laugh :P:

[Ladybug]

Do they plan on getting your tax return to verify you gave the 10%? :twitch

[MercifullySaved]

Do they plan on getting your tax return to verify you gave the 10%? :twitch

That's a good question.
The sick thing is, Kristina remembers a sermon we heard at the Foursquare church we were going to in Vegas in which the pastor said that all of his staff are required to tithe 10%. :rolleyes
What is WRONG with churches these days? :mad

[StinkerBell]

Maybe they are not aware that you are not working?
I want you to ask them is 10% of no income still zero? then how do you write that in a check form? :heh

I think that they have no clue that your not working.

[StinkerBell]

I will admit that Hog and I have not yet met the 10% threshold of giving...We usually give 5 to 7 % but we also give a great deal of time too.

[MercifullySaved]

Maybe they are not aware that you are not working?
I want you to ask them is 10% of no income still zero? then how do you write that in a check form? :heh

I think that they have no clue that your not working.

No, they know very well. I'm really pretty good friends with the pastor; we've had breakfast - just the two of us - several times, and I know that he knows that I have no job.

[Old 33]

I'm not sure I agree with how the church is going about getting out this message, but I don't have a problem with the concept, per se.

They're not talking about every member. They're talking about the leadership of the church. And there is often a problem in churches when the leadership isn't leading by example; where there are people in leadership positions who give nothing to the church, but get all self-righteous about demanding that others give more.

I don't think it is unreasonable for a church to say to its leadership group that it is expected that they tithe. Is it a salvation issue? No. But it is a leadership issue.

Added: obviously, if you are a student and have no income, then there is no expectation that you give $$ you don't have to the church. But if there are lawyers, for example, on your church's leadership team bringing in six figures but aren't giving at least 5 figures to the church, that's a problem...

[StinkerBell]

Then there isnt a problem...You dont have a job so your 10% of nothing is still nothing.
:thumb

[blitzkreig]

Maybe if you are not working you should ask for some portion of the 10% they receive which the other's contribute!

While tithing can't be found in the New Testament at least that principle can be found in the early Acts church of the New Testament ... :wave

[blitzkreig]

I'm not sure I agree with how the church is going about getting out this message, but I don't have a problem with the concept, per se.I would tend to agree. If they are going out on a Non-Scriptural limb anyway ... it is no different than a private club with dues.

.

[MercifullySaved]

While tithing can't be found in the New Testament at least that principle can be found in the early Acts church of the New Testament ... :wave

Well, yes and no on tithing in Acts. It was more like a voluntary 100% tithe, which I think was pretty cool. It wasn't mandated, it was to build a community. At least that's the way I see it when I read it... :thumb

[Gordon b]

I thought everyone gave 10%.

[StinkerBell]

Ok I will ask a tough question...:heh

We should give to God, but where does it say that it should be given to one entity?
We give 5- 7% to our church and we also give to other places such as "Life Choices".

[cjcfreedom]

Well you can always tithe the way the O.T. saints did, go get some turtle doves, a few rams, goats and of course your wheat offering and your corn. Of course. then make sure there are Levites in the church to offer them up on the alter to the Lord. Oh but that has to be done in Jerusalem, well, maybe you are just out of luck and cannot tithe. But you could accept Jesus' perfect offering for your sins and just leave it at that! Either you accept Jesus as your offering to the Lord or you don't. Up to you. As Paul said, you cannot live under the law and grace at the same time. I choose Grace I don't care what a church leadership says to get money. Yeah, bring them some goats and wheat and see what they do with it.

[MercifullySaved]

Well you can always tithe the way the O.T. saints did, go get some turtle doves, a few rams, goats and of course your wheat offering and your corn. Of course. then make sure there are Levites in the church to offer them up on the alter to the Lord. Oh but that has to be done in Jerusalem, well, maybe you are just out of luck and cannot tithe. But you could accept Jesus' perfect offering for your sins and just leave it at that! Either you accept Jesus as your offering to the Lord or you don't. Up to you. As Paul said, you cannot live under the law and grace at the same time. I choose Grace I don't care what a church leadership says to get money. Yeah, bring them some goats and wheat and see what they do with it.

:rofl
I like that idea :thumb

[blitzkreig]

We should give to God, but where does it say that it should be given to one entity?. It doesn't. The New Testament definitely encourages alms giving. We give to a number of very good charities. My church's sound system is good enough we don't need more ...

[StinkerBell]

BTW the word entity I used was bad choice of a word. I hope you guys understood what I meant.

[MercifullySaved]

BTW the word entity I used was bad choice of a word. I hope you guys understood what I meant.

I'm sure you meant "ministry." ;):

[StinkerBell]

yup. :heh
sometimes after the 4th reread, one realizes...opps

[joy4Him2day]

ask God what He wants you to give......He knows how much it should be....perhaps its your cue to not be part of the staff, or, your cue to watch to see how God provides the ten per cent.....:noidea
wondering if tithing is even the issue.......just a thought......I know sometimes the Holy Spirit has directed me to a much deeper issue than the one that is blatantly present........
I thought you were studying for the ministry? Perhaps this will be one of your George Mueller experiences......"I don't know where You will come up with it, but it's Your work--so I will watch to see how You provide..... :): "

Just for a few minutes in prayer, pretend that this issue is solely between you and God, and not you and the Pastor......
see what He thinks of all of it......
:hug

[MercifullySaved]

ask God what He wants you to give......He knows how much it should be....perhaps its your cue to not be part of the staff, or, your cue to watch to see how God provides the ten per cent.....:noidea
wondering if tithing is even the issue.......just a thought......I know sometimes the Holy Spirit has directed me to a much deeper issue than the one that is blatantly present........
I thought you were studying for the ministry? Perhaps this will be one of your George Mueller experiences......"I don't know where You will come up with it, but it's Your work--so I will watch to see how You provide..... :): "

Just for a few minutes in prayer, pretend that this issue is solely between you and God, and not you and the Pastor......
see what He thinks of all of it......
:hug

See, that's the thing. I DO think that it's between me and God, and that's why I have given at a very steady rate. I think that the church is out of line to make it between the CHURCH and man rather than God and man.
And yes, I'm preparing for the ministry. :):

[StinkerBell]

I am not seeing the issue Toby, 10% of nothing is still nothing...

[MercifullySaved]

I am not seeing the issue Toby, 10% of nothing is still nothing...

The issue for me is being TOLD to give AT LEAST 10%. Whether or not I am employed is really irrelevant. I think that giving/tithing is an issue between each individual and God rather than between each individual and the church. To whom am I accountable? Even in church leadership, I am ultimately only responsible to God.
Basically, in my opinion, it's none of the church's business whether I give to them or not, because like you said, I may just give to different ministries. I have a very giving heart, but I don't like being TOLD to give. :sigh

[MNGirl]

I don't know where many people get the idea that they don't need to tithe, or that it is not in the OT. If people would tithe, maybe they would do better financially. Don't flame me for that - God himself said it - See Malachi: beginning in 3:8

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].


Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.


Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mercifully Saved, if you don't think its the church's business if you give to them, but you give to different ministries, you probably should not go there and use their electricity to hear the sermon or see your Bible, use the water in the restroom or enjoy their heat and air conditioning. Just who do you think should pay for you to use those things? It costs money to run a church - where is it supposed to come from if everyone is "giving to different ministries?"

[cameron222]

I think this does a dis-service to the members as those who cannot tithe will now feel pressured and take their minds off worship to wondering if anyone is looking when the plate is passed. God loves a cheerful giver. The tithe is a part of the law, and if your church "requires" tithing, it should also require animal sacrifices and hold their services on the Sabbath, (Saturday).

The tithe was also argicultural to an extent. So bring ten percent of your garden to the church and see if it is acceptable to the leadership.

[StinkerBell]

Sounds like a great topic to do a report/debate for school. Or possibly to bring to the attention of the Church itself.

[Blessed4ever]

I don't know where many people get the idea that they don't need to tithe, or that it is not in the OT. If people would tithe, maybe they would do better financially. Don't flame me for that - God himself said it - See Malachi: beginning in 3:8

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].


Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.


Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mercifully Saved, if you don't think its the church's business if you give to them, but you give to different ministries, you probably should not go there and use their electricity to hear the sermon, see your Bible, use the water in the restroom or enjoy their heat and air conditioning. Just who do you think should pay for you to use those things? It costs money to run a church - where is it supposed to come from if everyone is "giving to different ministries?"

MNgirl................I don't think that i what he was saying. He clearly said that he HAS been giving to the church consistently but that it is between him and GOD and should not be mandated by the CHURCH. I tend to agree.........I have been on staff at a church before and it was not mandated of me to give 10% of my earnings to them. However, I chose to give even more than 10% because I was led by the LORD to do so!

Anyway, on Toby's behalf (and I know he can speak for himself) I am certain you are way off base here! :wave

[MNGirl]

Basically, in my opinion, it's none of the church's business whether I give to them or not, because like you said, I may just give to different ministries. I have a very giving heart, but I don't like being TOLD to give. :sigh

That is exactly what he said, as I pasted in his quote above.

[cjcfreedom]

Yup in the O.T. under the law of Moses. Just don't look in Malachi, its part of the Law. Then once you read it there, go read the whole book of "Hebrews". Either you are under the law of Moses with the Jews of the O.T. by the way you aren't a Jew in O.T. times. Or you can look at the scripture where the Lord spoke from heaven saying "This is my beloved son, here ye him." So Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses and gave us a new law, that to love one another. Go to the Book of Hebrews darlin and read, either you are under the law or under grace -- The book of Malachi was before Christ was it not? Yup! And look at who he was talking to who was Malachi talking to he wasn't talking to Christians, nope. And what where they bringing what were their tithes and offerings, it wasn't cash. God didn't want CASH. Look in the O.T. Leviticus and see what the tithe was.

We are to give and not just to the Church. The N.T. says "give as the Lord prospers you." GIVE.... GIVE... GIVE.. . As you determine in your own heart not grudgingly not oout of "duty" but out of love. That's a big difference.

2 Corinthians 9:7 - Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

[DJHere]

Should we tithe? Hebrews 7 teaches us:

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
4Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. 6This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. 8In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

Does this demonstrate tithing was in effect before the Mosaic law was given?

The Blue Letter Bible states this about tithing:

"a tenth of the produce of the earth consecrated and set apart for special purposes. The dedication of a tenth to God was recognized as a duty before the time of Moses. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek ( Gen 14:20; Hbr 7:6); and Jacob vowed unto the Lord and said, "Of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee."

The first Mosaic law on this subject is recorded in Lev. 27:30-32. Subsequent legislation regulated the destination of the tithes ( Num 18:21-24,26-28; Deu 12:5,6,11,17; 14:22,23). The paying of the tithes was an important part of the Jewish religious worship. In the days of Hezekiah one of the first results of the reformation of religion was the eagerness with which the people brought in their tithes ( 2Ch 31:5,6). The neglect of this duty was sternly rebuked by the prophets ( Amo 4:4; Mal 3:8-10). It cannot be affirmed that the Old Testament law of tithes is binding on the Christian Church, nevertheless the principle of this law remains, and is incorporated in the gospel ( 1Cr 9:13,14); and if, as is the case, the motive that ought to prompt to liberality in the cause of religion and of the service of God be greater now than in Old Testament times, then Christians outght to go beyond the ancient Hebrew in consecrating both themselves and their substance to God.

Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property ( 1) one tithe for the Levites; ( 2) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and ( 3) one for the poor of the land. "

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/choice/1119475106-9384.html

Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 9:

13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

How was this accomplished? By the gifts of the saints given to the church! (1 Cor. chapter 9 and 2 Cor. chapters 8 and 9)

What did God ask the nation of Israel in Malachi 3?

6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings.

Does God change? NO! If you doubt this read the first words of Malachi 3:6. So why would you think if Abraham paid a tithe of ten percent and if God commanded the nation of Israel to pay this tithe why He would not expect you to support His work by doing tithing as well?

Malachi 3:10 states:

10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

You might say this promise is only for the Jews but I don't think so for Malachi 3:6 specifically states that God does not change and Abraham gave a tenth before the Mosaic Law was given thus demostrating this was God's will even before the Law was given. And if that is not enough to convince you, listen to my husbands and my testimony.

Back in 91 we were not living for the Lord, nor were tithing, so God decided to get our attention. He did this by devastating us financially. We ended up being totally broke. We got our hearts right with God and told Him we would trust Him to meet our needs and quit playing the Lotto. We also started tithing. God took us from financial ruin to financial freedom. Today we own free and clear our home and cars and God has blessed beyond belief. When we obeyed God by tithing he opened up the doors of heaven and blessed us beyond belief just as Malachi 3:10 promised He would. God keeps His word.

[MNGirl]

This is one topic that raises my hackles. It saddens me to see Christians encouraging each other to be stingy with God under the guise of feeling "led". Its a sad fact that 20% of Christians give 80% of the money. If you look back at several threads on this Board, that is probably the percentage here too.

[StinkerBell]

DJHERE,

Does a church have the right to demand 10% or do we have the right to give to other ministries? (7% to church and 3% to another ministry, for example)?

[cenimo]

MNGirl

Scripture also says God loves a cheerful giver. People that are guilt-tripped into tithing can't be too cheerful about it, especially if the guilt-trips are the result of overzealous building (Fill in the blank here _ _ _ _ _ ) projects, etc...

Many will also argue that the OT tithes were crops, not the funds raised from sale of crops.

Also, when it is all said and done, the average church member that gives to the church actually gives beween 2 - 3 %, nowhere near 10%.

[Blessed4ever]

This is one topic that raises my hackles. It saddens me to see Christians encouraging each other to be stingy with God under the guise of feeling "led". Its a sad fact that 20% of Christians give 80% of the money. If you look back at several threads on this Board, that is probably the percentage here too.


I understand how you feel if that were the case (as far as us encouraging eachother to be stingy) but I respectfully disagree with you. I am not trying to raise anyone's hackles.

My point was MS said he gave to his church, not that he didn't give to any other ministries.

I give to my church. Sometimes less that 10% sometimes more than 10%.


I am not referring to any other thread.....only this one and I don't believe it was the heart of anyone posting that any of us should be stingy.

[StinkerBell]

ok I want to re ask my question.....

For the sake of argument lets agree that 10% is what we are suppose to tithe...Ok so her ei sthe question...Does a church have a right to DEMAND that you give them that 10%? ir do we have the right to distribute tsaid 10% to the ministries we choose?

[His4ever]

What you give should be between you and the Lord. I don't think churches should be making demands as to what people should give. I'm curious. Do they expect you to send them a report as to what you give and what will they do if you don't meet their demand?

[His4ever]

[QUOTE=StinkerBell]ok I want to re ask my question.....

For the sake of argument lets agree that 10% is what we are suppose to tithe...Ok so her ei sthe question...Does a church have a right to DEMAND that you give them that 10%? ir do we have the

My spouse doesn't want me giving more than 10% of my income so I divide that however I choose. I have a few ministries I give to so it doesn't all go to the church. I'm still giving it to God, regardless.

[StinkerBell]

I hope I at least captured part of the OP argument.

If not I never really understood him anyways...His bowling abilities proved that.

[wilberforce15]

don't like being TOLD to give.

Well, scripture does exactly that, and the leadership at the church is just passing on His commands, which is part of their duty.

Somehow we all get by paying 20-50% of all our money to a corrupt, wasteful, and God-hating government, but to expect at least 10% for the Church is somehow out of line.

Not giving is sin. The church leadership is responsible for shepherding the body toward righteousness, which includes plentiful giving with a glad heart. So.....it is totally reasonable for them to use their God-given role and authority to tell their congregation to "give with a glad heart."

Does anybody else see how strange this reasoning is? Just replace the sin of not giving with any other and see how nonsensical it is.

"I don't want to be TOLD not to lie. Telling the truth is between me and God. I want to NOT lie because I have a truthful heart, not because I'm TOLD to do so." I think we'd all roll our eyes at that one.

As a last note, both 10% and 100% of nothing is indeed......nothing. I'm willing to bet your pastors aren't demanding more in giving than you even have - they're just encouraging (and rightfully expecting) their leadership to be faithful with their finances. I see nothing wrong here.

[StinkerBell]

Well, scripture does exactly that, and the leadership at the church is just passing on His commands, which is part of their duty.

Somehow we all get by paying 20-50% of all our money to a corrupt, wasteful, and God-hating government, but to expect at least 10% for the Church is somehow out of line.

Not giving is sin. The church leadership is responsible for shepherding the body toward righteousness, which includes plentiful giving with a glad heart. So.....it is totally reasonable for them to use their God-given role and authority to tell their congregation to "give with a glad heart."

Does anybody else see how strange this reasoning is? Just replace the sin of not giving with any other and see how nonsensical it is.

"I don't want to be TOLD not to lie. Telling the truth is between me and God. I want to NOT lie because I have a truthful heart, not because I'm TOLD to do so." I think we'd all roll our eyes at that one.

As a last note, both 10% and 100% of nothing is indeed......nothing. I'm willing to bet your pastors aren't demanding more in giving than you even have - they're just encouraging (and rightfully expecting) their leadership to be faithful with their finances. I see nothing wrong here.
I am just curious of what you tink about my question? (see post 37)

[blitzkreig]

This is one topic that raises my hackles. It saddens me to see Christians encouraging each other to be stingy with God under the guise of feeling "led". Its a sad fact that 20% of Christians give 80% of the money. If you look back at several threads on this Board, that is probably the percentage here too. Hey if you could send it to God it would be one thing, but someone in the local Church Hierarchy always wants to take it all and spend it long before it reaches Him.

Please don't get the Church Hierarchy confused with God. That guy at the front on Sunday morning ain't God. He is a hired preacher. Paid a salary to speak.

Paul worked as a tent maker so as to NOT burden the congregations he worked with. Paul collected money from the local congregations in the Nations to send to the poor in Jerusalem who had sold all their stuff to share with one another as the local Jerusalem church had preached UNDER THE LAW... and now they were POOR. Literally starving. So much for attempting to put the Church under the Law. :doh

For the most part what I see that the local Church Hierarchy wants doesn't align with Scripture. They want padded pews and sound systems that would rival Las Vegas entertainers.

I don't see many of the Church Hierarchy makin' tents.

Give alms to the poor. :nod

.

[wilberforce15]

Short answer: Yes, it is first and foremost for your local Church. The local body does have a right to expect 10% from its members.

[Benja32one]

Churches usually start new christians at 10%, I think because the O.T. clearly teaches that percentage. But...we are not uinder law in this age...that's the good part. Now for the unpleasant part.....christians are expected to give when they can, what they can, IMO. For example, regarding the collection for the persecuted saints in Jerusalem......


1 Cor. 16.........
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints,
as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in
store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I
come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters,
them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.]

In point of fact, I do not make a weekly wage or salary, I am in business for myself, and have been for nearly 40 years. But when I can, 'as the Lord has prospered me', I try to give a lump sum for some cause in the church or other, as missions, etc.
As to other reasons...buildings, programs, etc.....
No church has the 'right to demand' members give for other than pastor's sustenance....
i Cor 9.14.........
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel
should live of the gospel.
.........................................
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour,
especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth
out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

It seems that the last scripture implies that 'double honor' means remuneration also, not just esteem.

WHEN YOU GOT SAVED, DID GOD SAVE YOU POCKETBOOK ALSO?????

[MNGirl]

Demand - no. Teach Scriptural giving - yes. If someone is going to a Vegas-style church with a lot of razzle dazzle and not much else, find somewhere else to go. The church should also be giving money to missions, local outreach, evangelism or whatever.

[StinkerBell]

Short answer: Yes, it is first and foremost for your local Church. The local body does have a right to expect 10% from its members.
I am wondering if there is scripture you can provide?

[blitzkreig]

Churches usually start new christians at 10%, I think because the O.T. clearly teaches that percentage. 23 1/3% is Law.

[blitzkreig]

HOW MANY TITHES?

10%, 20%, or 23 1/3%?

Was the biblical tithe only 10%, or could it have been as much as 23 1/3%? Was there one tithe, two tithes, or three? A discussion of these questions was not originally part of this book until it became evident why only one answer is acceptable to most who teach New Covenant tithing.

Most casual readers of the Old Testament will conclude that there were at least two, and perhaps three, separate tithes, averaging either twenty or twenty three and one third percent (23 1/3%) per year, instead of only one ten (10%) percent tithe. For two thousand years theologians have been split over whether these were all separate tithes or somehow merged into either one or two tithes. The "multiple tithe" position is held by Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Matthew Henry, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Bruce Metzger, Charles Ryrie, the Jewish Talmud and most Jewish writers, like Josephus.

Charles Ryrie combines the second and third tithe into one. "Two tithes were required: an annual tithe for the maintenance of the Levites (Lev. 27:30; Num. 18:21) and a second tithe brought to Jerusalem for the Lord’s feasts (Deut. 14:22). Every third year, however, the second tithe was kept at home for the poor (Deut. 14:28)." The McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, tithe, Section I, last paragraph, also concludes that only two tithes existed. My only objection is that, if this were true, then we would have to conclude that there were no feasts every third year if there were no food brought.

For those, like the author, who believe that New Covenant giving under principles of grace replaces the entire tithing system, there is no reason to be dogmatic about which position is correct. However, for those who believe that tithing is also expected from the New Covenant Christian, the ONE tithe of ten percent can be the ONLY true and acceptable explanation. This position is for very obvious reasons! While it is difficult enough to ask average church members for ten percent, it would be much more difficult to ask them for twenty or even twenty three and one third percent!

Therefore, those who defend exact tithing have often placed themselves into a no-compromise position which concludes that the Old Covenant only taught one tithe of ten percent. Notice the tone of Eklund’s remarks, "The notion of three separate tithes has been circulated among commentators for a long time. Nevertheless, we must remain true to Scripture and not the traditions of biblical interpreters. Some have used the idea of three distinct tithes as a means of rendering tithing an obsolete doctrine, not valid for the New Covenant believers. This is done by rendering the Levite tithe as government taxation, the festival tithe as antiquated ritual, and the welfare tithe as giving to the poor. Since taxes and welfare funding are levied by the government, it is assumed that the tithe is no longer necessary."

In reply to Eklund, first, it is unprofessional to attack those who disagree by accusing them of following the "traditions of biblical interpreters" and accusing them of not remaining "true to Scripture." Such superior attitude simply will not convince scholars to concede their own researched positions. Second, many of Eklund’s own denomination’s seminary scholars and textbooks hold the opposite position which he criticizes. When he says "we," he errs in thinking that his own denomination totally agrees with him. Third, his discussion hints at an ulterior motive for insisting on only one tithe.

The First Yearly (Levitical) Tithe, Numbers 18: For Levitical Inheritance

Num. 18:20 You shall have no inheritance in their land, neither shall you have any part among them; I am your part and your inheritance among the children of Israel.

Num. 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service. . . .

This tithe has already been discussed in detail in previous chapters. Unlike the second and third tithes, it replaced land inheritance rights in Israel and provided basic sustenance for the Levite and the Aaronic priests of the tribe of Levi, as described in Numbers 18.

The Second Yearly (Festival) Tithe: Deuteronomy 12:1-19 and 14:22-26

Deut. 12:6 And there [later Jerusalem] you shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the first offspring of your herds and of your flocks:

Deut. 12:7 And there you shall eat before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice in all that you put your hand unto, you and your households, wherein the LORD your God has blessed you. ["Rejoice" is in verses 7, 12, and 18.]

Deut. 14:23 And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there [later Jerusalem], the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the first offspring of your herds and of your flocks; that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. ["Rejoice" is in verse 26.]

Whereas the first tithe was brought to the Levitical cities ["... the tithe of our ground to the Levites, for the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns. Neh. 10:37b, NASU], the second yearly tithe was brought to Jerusalem for the festivals which accompanied the numerous gatherings. Also, unlike the first tithe, along with the Levite, the other Israelites, their family members, and servants, ALL ATE portions of this tithe. Also, unlike the first tithe, this tithe was an integral part of REJOICING and celebration in the presence of the LORD. It is distinctly different from the first tithe.

The Third Year (Poor) Tithe: Deuteronomy 14:28-29 and 26:12-13

Deut. 14:28 At the end of three years you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase the same year, and shall lay it up within your gates.

Deut. 14:29 And the Levite, (because he has no part nor inheritance with you), and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within your gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Deut 26:12 When you have made an end of tithing all the tithes of your increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled,

Deut. 26:13 Then you shall say before the LORD your God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of my house, and also have given them to the Levite, and to the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all your commandments which you have commanded me; I have not transgressed your commandments, neither have I forgotten them.

Unlike the first tithe, the third-year tithe (in the year of tithing) was specifically for all of the needy--including the non-Israelite stranger! Its recipients included the Levites, widows, orphans, fatherless, and Gentile strangers. Also, unlike the second tithe which went to Jerusalem, the third tithe was to stay in the towns, "within your gates," at home. This could not possibly be the same as the first, or second, tithe.

Consequences of Two or Three Tithes

These texts, Deuteronomy 12:6-7; 14:22-29; and 26:12-13 present a real dilemma for those who teach New Covenant tithing. First, if these verses are only a later amended part of the original tithe ordinance found in Numbers 18, then Deuteronomy should have priority over Leviticus and Numbers. This would mean that tithers should be allowed to feast off the tithes they bring to church! [How does one eat money?] Failure to do so would be failure to follow the final biblical tithing revelation. Second, if the church admits that the feast tithe was indeed a second tithe, then it must also teach a minimum of twenty percent as an expectation of the church. This is a lose-lose situation!

Matthew Henry is among those who think that twenty percent tithes should be taught for the New Covenant Christian. Actually, he adds the king’s tithe and totals three tithes of at least thirty (30) percent! "You think the tenths, the double tenths, which the law of God has appointed for the support of the church, grievous enough, and grudge the payment of them; but, if you have a king, there must issue another tenth out of your estates, which will be levied with more rigor, for the support of the royal dignity". Yet modern taxation is much more than thirty percent.

In Jesus’s day, taxation would look like this:

10% EMPIRE: food spoils-of-war tax to Rome; 20% of fruits; Gen. 14:20

10%+ PROVINCE: King Herod’s tax: 1 Sam. 8:14-17

10%: RELIGIOUS: food tithes; Numbers. 18:20-26

10%: FESTIVALS: food tithe, Deut. 12:6-7; 14:22-23

[? 3 1/3%: POOR TITHE (10% every third year): Welfare, Deut. 14:28-29; 26:12-13

PLUS: road taxes; bridge taxes; temple shekel; free-will offerings;

and many other religious and royal taxes

TOTAL: 40% BARE MINIMUM TOTAL TAXATION

There are good reasons to disagree with Eklund and accept either two or three separate tithes. First, it is extremely difficult to interpret the Scriptures otherwise. The Levites deserved support and probably fed the poor from all three tithes since a secular government welfare system did not exist. Does not our government tax us at least ten percent in order to set up judicial posts and protect its people? Remember, these texts describe a theocratic (God-ruled) government! Second, the feasts were also important as national family-reunions; they were many and long-lasting and no government funds were allocated for them. If the citizens of Israel had combined all of the expenses at every religious and national holiday throughout the year, they would have discovered at least another ten percent spent.

The third year tithe was supplemental for the poor. Today our government, not our churches, taxes more than the extra three and one third percent from us for Medicare, public housing, food stamps, and other social programs. We must also remember that no tithes were to be collected from the land every seventh year, every fiftieth year, and when drought and famine caused no increase. Because of Roman occupation, this may have been dropped entirely.

In conclusion, twenty three and one third percent is not extravagant when compared to the amount of taxation required today which provides the same kinds of services as those of the theocratic Levitical government, as originally proposed in the Old Covenant.

John MacArthur, an extremely popular U.S. educator, author, evangelist, and radio personality agrees. "So when someone says the Jew gave ten percent, that isn’t true. The Jew gave twenty-three percent to begin with. It was for the poor people, the widows, and people who didn’t have anything to eat. So they were funding the people who ran the government, which were the Levites; they were providing for national feasts through the festival tithe; and they gave for the welfare program. All this was funding for the national entity. All three of these were taxation, not freewill giving to God. Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run: the priestly program, the national religious program, and the welfare program."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says, "There is thus an obvious apparent discrepancy between the legislation in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It is harmonized in Jewish tradition, not only theoretically but in practice, by considering the tithes as three different tithes, which are named the First Tithe, the Second Tithe, and the Poor Tithe, which is also called the Third Tithe; compare Tob. 1:7-8; Ant, IV, iv, 3; viii, 8; viii, 22). According to this explanation, after the tithe (the First Tithe) was given to the Levites (of which they had to give the tithe to the priests), a Second Tithe of the remaining nine-tenths had to be set apart and consumed in Jerusalem. Those who lived far from Jerusalem could change this Second Tithe into money with the addition of a 5th part of its value. Only food, drink or ointment could be bought for the money (Ma`aser Sheni 2:1; compare Deut. 14:26). The tithe of cattle belonged to the Second Tithe, and was to be used for the feast in Jerusalem (Zebhachim 5:8). In the third year the Second Tithe was to be given entirely to the Levites and the poor. But according to Josephus (Ant, IV, viii, 22) the ‘Poor Tithe’ was actually a third one. The priests and the Levites, if landowners, were also obliged to give the Poor Tithe (Pe’ah 1:6)." [Admittedly, parts of this quotation are confusing.]

The third tithe reveals that the Levite was expected to be among the poor. Israel’s treatment of strangers, the fatherless, and the widows was extremely important. After being first mentioned in Exodus 22:21, and ten times in Deuteronomy, they are linked in Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and the very important tithing text of Malachi 3:5 -- a total of 21 times. God commanded Old Covenant Israel to care for the needy; it was not an option!

Again, the third year tithe remained in the towns instead of going to the temple storehouse in Jerusalem. In addition to the Levite, it included all others who had no inheritance. God made it the responsibility of the religious leaders to take care of the needy. Once again, one requirement for receiving from the tithe was lack of land inheritance in Israel.

In giving a portion of the tithe to the poor and needy, the Israelite was demonstrating his commitment to keep ALL of the law. Today, there is no valid biblical principle which allows the church to teach only one of the three types of tithes to support its ministers and then ignore the national festival tithes and the third year tithes for the poor and needy. Like the rest of the law, tithing was a complete package with three inseparable parts which cannot be divorced from the context of the entire Mosaic Law.

http://home.earthlink.net/~russkellyphd/id29.html

[cenimo]

From
www.GoToSimpleTruth.com
Lie of the Tithe a book on tithing and a full exposure of the practice of tithe collecting and the collection of tithes by churches.. Every scripture on tithes is contained in this book exposing the full truth about church tithes and the preaching of tithes from Malachi by many pulpits on tithing. The author pastored a church and never collected tithes or practiced tithing or the art of manipulating people into paying tithes.


Do you understand why God had the tither pay tithes in the Old Testament in the form of food and not money? Yes they did have money in the Old Testament. Why would God require tithes in the form of food?

Do you realize that the tither ATE the tithe in every instance in the Old Testament?
Why has the pulpit failed to teach you this truth?
http://www.gotosimpletruth.com/tithing/tithing_excerpt_02-21-01.htm

Since this is a biblical fact that the tither ATE the tithe every time; ask yourself "how could the tither ever be charged with robbing God" of something that God provided and the tither was to eat anyhow.

Are you tired of hearing the phrase "Will a man rob God" shoved at you every Sunday? Wait until you see what God was really saying, and to whom He was really speaking to in the book Lie of the Tithe.
http://www.gotosimpletruth.com/tithing/tithing_excerpt_02-21-01.htm

[Benja32one]

23 1/3% is Law.
:spit
Whew...praise God we are in the age of grace!
The question for most is DID GOD SAVE YOUR WALLET TOO?
:pound :pound :pound :faint

[cameron222]

There is also the debate as to whether the tithe is on the gross or the net pay. Or is it after expenses?

Should a Christian not pay his bills in order to tithe?

If the preacher demanding tithes is wearing a wool polyester suit he is also breaking the law by mingling fabrics together.

There are 613 Jewish laws that must be followed to obtain righteousness by the law.

We have enough struggle with just 10.

[blitzkreig]

:spit
Whew...praise God we are in the age of grace!
The question for most is DID GOD SAVE YOUR WALLET TOO?

Study of the "tithe" is most revealing. It was a tax for services for the most part which are provided in my country of Canada by the state. What our "church" does with all the money is awful. If a poor person came in and wanted a few hundred they would be shown the curb in no short order.

That building on the corner which hosts a meeting on Sunday's for us to get together for the most part (scripturally speaking) is not what Paul established in his travels ... but more of a country club.

.

[semperfidelis]

Our church is moving from renting out a local school cafeteria for services to a very prominent location on a very busy road. We're also changing from non-denominational to being a Calvary Chapel church.
I have been asked to attend these meetings for church leadership, and was given a list of things that are expected of me. One of them was that I tithe AT LEAST 10%. This just makes me absolutely nauseous. First of all, I don't even have a job. If they want to figure out what 10% of nothing is, by all means, be my guest. Second, there is no Biblical mandate to tithe 10%. If you want to be technical about it, tithing in the OT was around 30%, not 10%. Third, for them to expect something like that of me totally diminishes my giving spirit. I do give to the church, even though I'm a full-time, unemployed student. I do it because I have a heart that wants to give. But to think that this is expected of me...ugh, that's just not right.
How does everyone else feel about something like this?

Mercifully, if you have no income, then you cannot tithe anything. Tithing is based on income and or ownership of something. Also you cannot tithe more than 10 % because it is the first tenth or literally a tenth of what you have received. Anything above the 10% would be an offering.

[semperfidelis]

I think this does a dis-service to the members as those who cannot tithe will now feel pressured and take their minds off worship to wondering if anyone is looking when the plate is passed. God loves a cheerful giver. The tithe is a part of the law, and if your church "requires" tithing, it should also require animal sacrifices and hold their services on the Sabbath, (Saturday).

The tithe was also argicultural to an extent. So bring ten percent of your garden to the church and see if it is acceptable to the leadership.

The tithe was around before the law. That makes it a princible in Gods word. I believe Abraham, Issac and Jacob all gave a tenth to the Lord.

[blitzkreig]

Also you cannot tithe more than 10 % because it is the first tenth or literally a tenth of what you have received. Anything above the 10% would be an offering.Do you have some Scripture which limits it to 10%? I think you skipped actually reading the previous posts.

.

[semperfidelis]

Do you have some Scripture which limits it to 10%? I think you skipped actually reading the previous posts.

.

I was under the impression that the word Tithe literally means a tenth.

Also are you the post police? :):

[semperfidelis]

I do know it was around before the law so the law argument is not only incorrect it is invalid.

Gen 14:20 And blessed1288 be the most high5945 God,410 which834 hath delivered4042 thine enemies6862 into thy hand.3027 And he gave5414 him tithes4643 of all.4480, 3605


H4643
מעשׂרה מעשׂר מעשׂר
ma‛ăśêr ma‛ăśar ma‛aśrâh
mah-as-ayr', mah-as-ar', mah-as-raw'
From H6240; a tenth; especially a tithe: - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).

Sometimes it just requires us to take a calm look at what is written to see the truth.

[blitzkreig]

I was under the impression that the word Tithe literally means a tenth. yes each of them would be 10 %.

Also are you the post police? :): Sorry. It just looked like you had missed a step. Obviously you disagreed with everyone who had posted scripture. :wave

In Jesus’s day, taxation would look like this:

10% EMPIRE: food spoils-of-war tax to Rome; 20% of fruits; Gen. 14:20

10%+ PROVINCE: King Herod’s tax: 1 Sam. 8:14-17

10%: RELIGIOUS: food tithes; Numbers. 18:20-26

10%: FESTIVALS: food tithe, Deut. 12:6-7; 14:22-23

[? 3 1/3%: POOR TITHE (10% every third year): Welfare, Deut. 14:28-29; 26:12-13

PLUS: road taxes; bridge taxes; temple shekel; free-will offerings;

and many other religious and royal taxes

TOTAL: 40% BARE MINIMUM TOTAL TAXATION
.

[semperfidelis]

yes each of them would be 10 %.

Sorry. It just looked like you had missed a step. Obviously you disagreed with everyone who had posted scripture. :wave

In Jesus’s day, taxation would look like this:

10% EMPIRE: food spoils-of-war tax to Rome; 20% of fruits; Gen. 14:20

10%+ PROVINCE: King Herod’s tax: 1 Sam. 8:14-17

10%: RELIGIOUS: food tithes; Numbers. 18:20-26

10%: FESTIVALS: food tithe, Deut. 12:6-7; 14:22-23

[? 3 1/3%: POOR TITHE (10% every third year): Welfare, Deut. 14:28-29; 26:12-13

PLUS: road taxes; bridge taxes; temple shekel; free-will offerings;

and many other religious and royal taxes

TOTAL: 40% BARE MINIMUM TOTAL TAXATION
.

I see a 10th written in as required by the word and through the examples. That is what I think is correct.

Also, just yanking your chain. I actually did not read all the posts. slap my hands!

[semperfidelis]

The Lord says to test him.

So test him. See if he does not open the floodgates of blessing so much that you cannot contain it.

You will not find the invite to test anywhere else in the bible.

He is calling anyone out on the fence. If you doubt it give it a shot, see what happens.



Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Store up some eternal riches.
Give to the people that need it ensuring that your money goes to something besides selfishness or something that moth and rust destroy.
Open up the floodgates of blessings in our lives on the earth and prosper beyond what we can imagine.

How much better can it be. The Lord is basically giving you the blueprint to not only empower the kingdom, but also put you in a position of abundance and blessing.

Praise God!

[blitzkreig]

I just boil at the "local" church for its total failure to Scripturally organize for the era in which we live ...

[cenimo]

Anything beyond 10% is called a free will offering.

For anyone who insists tithing should be based on gross... let's say someone hit the lottery, and wins $15,000,000 before taxes. They pledge to tithe $1,500,000. But they go for the cash option, which reduces the winnings to $7,500,000. But they pledged based on $15,000,000. Think about it. The only thing that really changes is the numbers.

[blitzkreig]

Anything beyond 10% is called a free will offering.

For anyone whoi insists tithing should be based on gross... let's say someone hit the lottery, and wins $15,000,000 before taxes. They pledge to tithe $1,500,000. But they go for the cash option, which reduces the winnings to $7,500,000. But they pledged based on $15,000,000. Think about it. The only thing that really changes is the numbers.Don't forget that taxes would reduce the $7,500,000 to a little under $4,000,000.

1.5/4= 37.5%

Yep pretty close to a Scriptural Old Testament tithe :thumb

.

[architectlink]

Our church is moving from renting out a local school cafeteria for services to a very prominent location on a very busy road. We're also changing from non-denominational to being a Calvary Chapel church.


Come on! FIRST Calvary Chapel IS non denominational, and they don't even keep track of who is tithing or who gives what...not even the pastors know who tithe.

Also, even when I was a broke college student, I had some income. I'd find money, someone would give me money, I'd get scholarship money...remember, it is sharing what you gain that gives God the glory.

Your pastor is correct in not knowing you don't have a job and not knowing if you tithe or not...sounds like you are being convicted! BTW, if you tithed 10% of your FREE time from the week, that could be 1.6 hours per day...God isn't counting pennies, he is counting your heart.

Blessings!

[architectlink]

Mercifully, if you have no income, then you cannot tithe anything. Tithing is based on income and or ownership of something. Also you cannot tithe more than 10 % because it is the first tenth or literally a tenth of what you have received. Anything above the 10% would be an offering.

I disagree...tithe is whatever gain you have, giving off the top of what you have. Clothing, food, shelter, etc. Tithing is not just from income. Someone pays for your food, etc.

This is not about anyone keeping track of you...this is about God convicting us to give of our hearts. The widows few pennies were much more important to God than the rich man's wealth.

I think many are missing the point. No one is telling you to give except the Holy Spirit.

[cameron222]

And give we should and give generously so the gospel can be spread. Its costs a lot these days to go into all the world.

[blitzkreig]

And give we should and give generously so the gospel can be spread. Its costs a lot these days to go into all the world.Now that I agree with.

Now we need to ask, what spreads the word more, my local church who has been raising money to send kids on a trip to Costa Rica to build a recreation center for our missionary outpost ... or perhaps even this RR website?

:confused

[StinkerBell]

There is also the debate as to whether the tithe is on the gross or the net pay. Or is it after expenses?

Should a Christian not pay his bills in order to tithe?

If the preacher demanding tithes is wearing a wool polyester suit he is also breaking the law by mingling fabrics together.

There are 613 Jewish laws that must be followed to obtain righteousness by the law.

We have enough struggle with just 10.
I received a pretty good answer to this question.

I was asked, do you claim the tax right off? if you dont, post tax, but if you get the tax benefit pre tax.

[semperfidelis]

I disagree...tithe is whatever gain you have, giving off the top of what you have. Clothing, food, shelter, etc. Tithing is not just from income. Someone pays for your food, etc.

This is not about anyone keeping track of you...this is about God convicting us to give of our hearts. The widows few pennies were much more important to God than the rich man's wealth.

I think many are missing the point. No one is telling you to give except the Holy Spirit.

architect, what are disagreeing with? I think you failed to read my post. I am a strong advocate of the tithe.

I said your gain or ownership of something

The tithe is 10% and everything else beyond that is an offering.

The tithe is about worship, its not about dollars. It is giving back part of what God has so richly blessed us with. He owns it all anyway, we are simply stewards. :):

[Kenjen]

[QUOTE=cenimo]MNGirl

Scripture also says God loves a cheerful giver. People that are guilt-tripped into tithing can't be too cheerful about it, especially if the guilt-trips are the result of overzealous building (Fill in the blank here _ _ _ _ _ ) projects, etc...

My pastor used to preach on tithing once a year. We were told that we should give at least 10% of our gross income. Now that we have a glorious new "auditorium" to pay for, we get to have these "fundraising campaigns" every three years where we are told to submit a pledge form for our giving "above & beyond" the 10%. Our pastor says he will continue to have the campaigns for as long as he is pastor, because he believes them to be Biblical. :confused Anyone who disagrees with this fundraising method is dismissed as not "having the vision".

Does anyone else's church operate like this? We are no longer in the building process, the current campaign is to pay the mortgage and "build bridges" :rolleyes into the community.

Can this "campaigning" actually be Biblical? Our church works with a marketing/fundraising firm, so it's a pretty slick operation. :(:

Sorry if this strays too far from the original question!

[HiLaReE320]

Tithing has nothing to do with law or church ordinance.. It has everything to do with obedience to God. If you pull a little money from your tithe to go see that movie this weekend or some other selfish desire, I dont think thats exactly obedience. I heard somewhere that churches tithe 2-3% of their income?? And this is the wealthiest country in the world, you would think Americans would (well, they can) give the most. In fact, afterall, 100% of the money you earn is from God.

[Mommy2KandM]

I think some of you are missing the point. The point isn't that we (mercifullysaved and myself, his wife) don't want to give. We in fact do give. Not out of income but out of savings. We felt lead to give x amount each week and we do. And if one week we feel we are to give more than x we do. It is between God and us and what HE wants us to do with His money.

The point was..... should a church give a general letter to people within the church telling them that a 10% or more tithe is EXPECTED. That is the part that kinda left us :twitch

My feelings are Tithing is between a person and God alone. The church shouldn't be telling people what to give. They should just be trusting God to provide.

It just doesn't feel like "giving tithe" when a note is made that it is expected. That kinda leaves one feeling like it is a bill. Changes the whole heart meaning of it.

Now I told my husband we should just ignore it give when/where and how much we feel the Lord leads us. And if someone doesn't like it they can take it to God.

[StinkerBell]

I think some of you are missing the point. The point isn't that we (mercifullysaved and myself, his wife) don't want to give. We in fact do give. Not out of income but out of savings. We felt lead to give x amount each week and we do. And if one week we feel we are to give more than x we do. It is between God and us and what HE wants us to do with His money.

The point was..... should a church give a general letter to people within the church telling them that a 10% or more tithe is EXPECTED. That is the part that kinda left us :twitch

My feelings are Tithing is between a person and God alone. The church shouldn't be telling people what to give. They should just be trusting God to provide.

It just doesn't feel like "giving tithe" when a note is made that it is expected. That kinda leaves one feeling like it is a bill. Changes the whole heart meaning of it.

Now I told my husband we should just ignore it give when/where and how much we feel the Lord leads us. And if someone doesn't like it they can take it to God.
I thought I got the issue. :drama

[DJHere]

DJHERE,

Does a church have the right to demand 10% or do we have the right to give to other ministries? (7% to church and 3% to another ministry, for example)?

My husband and I believe we need to support are local church first, for they have bills that need to be paid: that is exactly what the tithe God commanded Israel to give was used for, to meet the needs of the priests, workers in the temple and their families, but we also give to other ministries as well. I guess the best way I can answer your question then is to say that you should give as the Lord leads. What does God's word state?

1 Cor. 9:14 states:

14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

And what does 2 Cor. chapters 8 and 9 state? 2 Cor. 8 states:

Now I want to tell you, dear brothers and sisters,* what God in his kindness has done for the churches in Macedonia. 2 Though they have been going through much trouble and hard times, their wonderful joy and deep poverty have overflowed in rich generosity. 3 For I can testify that they gave not only what they could afford but far more. And they did it of their own free will. 4 They begged us again and again for the gracious privilege of sharing in the gift for the Christians in Jerusalem. 5 Best of all, they went beyond our highest hopes, for their first action was to dedicate themselves to the Lord and to us for whatever directions God might give them.
6 So we have urged Titus, who encouraged your giving in the first place, to return to you and encourage you to complete your share in this ministry of giving. 7 Since you excel in so many ways-you have so much faith, such gifted speakers, such knowledge, such enthusiasm, and such love for us*-now I want you to excel also in this gracious ministry of giving. 8 I am not saying you must do it, even though the other churches are eager to do it. This is one way to prove your love is real.
9 You know how full of love and kindness our Lord Jesus Christ was. Though he was very rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty he could make you rich.
10 I suggest that you finish what you started a year ago, for you were the first to propose this idea, and you were the first to begin doing something about it. 11 Now you should carry this project through to completion just as enthusiastically as you began it. Give whatever you can according to what you have. 12 If you are really eager to give, it isn't important how much you are able to give. God wants you to give what you have, not what you don't have. 13 Of course, I don't mean you should give so much that you suffer from having too little. I only mean that there should be some equality. 14 Right now you have plenty and can help them. Then at some other time they can share with you when you need it. In this way, everyone's needs will be met. 15 Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? "Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough."*

16 I am thankful to God that he has given Titus the same enthusiasm for you that I have. 17 He welcomed our request that he visit you again. In fact, he himself was eager to go and see you. 18 We are also sending another brother with Titus. He is highly praised in all the churches as a preacher of the Good News. 19 He was appointed by the churches to accompany us as we take the offering to Jerusalem*-a service that glorifies the Lord and shows our eagerness to help. 20 By traveling together we will guard against any suspicion, for we are anxious that no one should find fault with the way we are handling this generous gift. 21 We are careful to be honorable before the Lord, but we also want everyone else to know we are honorable.
22 And we are also sending with them another brother who has been thoroughly tested and has shown how earnest he is on many occasions. He is now even more enthusiastic because of his increased confidence in you. 23 If anyone asks about Titus, say that he is my partner who works with me to help you. And these brothers are representatives* of the churches. They are splendid examples of those who bring glory to Christ. 24 So show them your love, and prove to all the churches that our boasting about you is justified. (NLT version)

What does 2 Cor. 9 state?

The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem

I really don't need to write to you about this gift for the Christians in Jerusalem.* 2 For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to our friends in Macedonia that you Christians in Greece* were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of them to begin helping. 3 But I am sending these brothers just to be sure that you really are ready, as I told them you would be, with your money all collected. I don't want it to turn out that I was wrong in my boasting about you. 4 I would be humiliated-and so would you-if some Macedonian Christians came with me, only to find that you still weren't ready after all I had told them! 5 So I thought I should send these brothers ahead of me to make sure the gift you promised is ready. But I want it to be a willing gift, not one given under pressure.
6 Remember this-a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7 You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully. 8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others. 9 As the Scriptures say,


"Godly people give generously to the poor.
Their good deeds will never be forgotten."*


10 For God is the one who gives seed to the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will give you many opportunities to do good, and he will produce a great harvest of generosity* in you.
11 Yes, you will be enriched so that you can give even more generously. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will break out in thanksgiving to God. 12 So two good things will happen-the needs of the Christians in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanksgiving to God. 13 You will be glorifying God through your generous gifts. For your generosity to them will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ. 14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the wonderful grace of God shown through you.
15 Thank God for his Son-a gift too wonderful for words!*

Who was 2 Cor. written to?

This letter is from Paul, appointed by God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our dear brother Timothy.We are writing to God's church in Corinth and to all the Christians throughout Greece.

[StinkerBell]

Hi DJ :wave

Ok, if I am understnading yyou correctly its you and your hubby opinion that your church comes first. Thats fine, but I dont think its scriptual. I think (my opinion here) that a person needs to tithe how they are directed too. For example, I made a 1000.00 this month, and lets say Ministry A is my home church and Misnistry B is another Ministry. A is doing ok status quo, but B may need money this month because they need extra bibles to send to XYZ. I maybe be led to tithe soley to B this month or send B 80.00 and send A 20.00. I am tithing and the tithe is going to the work of God. I just dont find in scripture that I need to tithe strictly to a Home church. Now if your family chooses to do that, I respect it.

[DJHere]

Hi DJ :wave

Ok, if I am understnading yyou correctly its you and your hubby opinion that your church comes first. Thats fine, but I dont think its scriptual. I think (my opinion here) that a person needs to tithe how they are directed too. For example, I made a 1000.00 this month, and lets say Ministry A is my home church and Misnistry B is another Ministry. A is doing ok status quo, but B may need money this month because they need extra bibles to send to XYZ. I maybe be led to tithe soley to B this month or send B 80.00 and send A 20.00. I am tithing and the tithe is going to the work of God. I just dont find in scripture that I need to tithe strictly to a Home church. Now if your family chooses to do that, I respect it.

It is not scriptural to support your Pastor with your tithes and offerings? I am sorry but I must disagree with you for what does 1 Cor. 9:14 specifically state?

14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Who pays the Pastor for his services? The church! Not individuals but the church. And who pays the bills for the building where you meet? Who pays the salaries of the missionaries your church is supporting? Who pays the electric bills for the building your church meets in? If you do not give to the church they will not be able to pay these bills and what kind of testimony is that? That is why I said we give first to the local church we attend and then as the Lord leads us in other matters thus the needs of all will be met.

[Gordon b]

Our church does a lot of things with money. I give some of the money. If I didn't agree with the things my church does I should find a different church. It's my choice. Maybe I could get together with a bunch of people who don't like to give much money and start a real cheap church. We could have meetings at your house. We don't need youth programs cause we probably won't get any youth. WE won't support missionarys around the world cause we got problems of our own. ..... :rolleyes

[cameron222]

You also need to be cautious that the "tithe" doesn't make you feel like you are a better christian than a non tither. If a person tithes and then kicks back and does nothing else that can be a danger and lead to spiritual pride. But if a person feels led to tithe then I can certainly support that. Just saying that its not a "requirement."

You can't purchase a ticket to heaven or get a closer seat to the throne with a tithe.

Someone also mentioned a church that is stingy when it comes to helping others. If the preacher is going to preach on tithing and loving your fellow man, then they should also be there to help (even financially) in a time of trouble, but its pretty hard to get money out of some churches for the members who may be in trouble.

Actually if churches did their part as far as helping each other in the church family, we could cut the welfare rolls significantly.

[DJHere]

You also need to be cautious that the "tithe" doesn't make you feel like you are a better christian than a non tither. If a person tithes and then kicks back and does nothing else that can be a danger and lead to spiritual pride. But if a person feels led to tithe then I can certainly support that. Just saying that its not a "requirement."

You can't purchase a ticket to heaven or get a closer seat to the throne with a tithe.

And who suggested you could? Malachi 3:10 speaks of God's blessing not of how to get to heaven. I wonder how many people miss out on God's blessings because they refuse to give Him what rightfully belongs to Him. Deut. 8 teaches us it God who gives one the ability to produce wealth and James 2 teaches us every good and perfect gift comes from God. David praised God and stated:

10 David praised the LORD in the presence of the whole assembly, saying,
"Praise be to you, O LORD,
God of our father Israel,
from everlasting to everlasting.
11 Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power
and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
for everything in heaven and earth is yours.
Yours, O LORD, is the kingdom;
you are exalted as head over all.

12 Wealth and honor come from you;
you are the ruler of all things.
In your hands are strength and power
to exalt and give strength to all.

13 Now, our God, we give you thanks,
and praise your glorious name.

14 "But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to give as generously as this? Everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand. (1 Chron. 29)

When we tithe we are only giving back to God some of what He has graciously given to us.

[70thWeek]

Our church is moving from renting out a local school cafeteria for services to a very prominent location on a very busy road. We're also changing from non-denominational to being a Calvary Chapel church.
I have been asked to attend these meetings for church leadership, and was given a list of things that are expected of me. One of them was that I tithe AT LEAST 10%. This just makes me absolutely nauseous. First of all, I don't even have a job. If they want to figure out what 10% of nothing is, by all means, be my guest. Second, there is no Biblical mandate to tithe 10%. If you want to be technical about it, tithing in the OT was around 30%, not 10%. Third, for them to expect something like that of me totally diminishes my giving spirit. I do give to the church, even though I'm a full-time, unemployed student. I do it because I have a heart that wants to give. But to think that this is expected of me...ugh, that's just not right.
How does everyone else feel about something like this?

I don't agree with their attitude, esp. since they are becoming a CC, which usually don't dwell on money too much. Keep in mind that in CC pastors don't get a list of who gives what.

[Mommy2KandM]

I thought I got the issue. :drama


yes you did! :fish I think I used the word "SOME" :heh :hug

[Mommy2KandM]

When we tithe we are only giving back to God some of what He has graciously given to us.


DJ I agree. And I agree with all the Scripture you have posted. I guess I just feel it is through reading of Scripture and the counsel of the Holy Spirit that one should come to the understanding that all we have is Gods and we should freely give to the church and other ministries whatever He asks of us. I don't think it should come from the church organization instructing "us" that we are required to give x% to them in a typed note to attenders. I don't even have a problem with a sermon on giving, and the type of attitude we should give on. I think that is totally appropriate (though not every Sunday :lol )

Perhaps the note was directed at a specific person. :noidea and it was safest or lest noticeable to give the note to all and hope that person saw it. (and I am not saying I agree with that either) But it just really rubbed us the wrong way. It won't change our giving. We will just keep giving what we have been giving till the Lord directs us differently.

[Michele93]

It is not scriptural to support your Pastor with your tithes and offerings? I am sorry but I must disagree with you for what does 1 Cor. 9:14 specifically state?

14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Who pays the Pastor for his services? The church! Not individuals but the church. And who pays the bills for the building where you meet? Who pays the salaries of the missionaries your church is supporting? Who pays the electric bills for the building your church meets in? If you do not give to the church they will not be able to pay these bills and what kind of testimony is that? That is why I said we give first to the local church we attend and then as the Lord leads us in other matters thus the needs of all will be met.

I agree with you here. I had this discussion with my husband and my father-in-law. In addition to the things you mentioned I would also add that the church provides 'pastoral care', things like prayer support, pastoral counseling, visitation of the sick. Ministers need continuing education as well, time when they can learn or go on retreat. In addition to running the church building these things cost money. Many clergy are paid, some clergy still make their living as 'tent makers' (earn a living with another job). I currently produce our church's bulletin - we have a computer, leases on the copier and risograph (high speed copier), ink, paper, printer, ect. And oh the uproar if there isn't a bulletin. What would happen in your churches if there wasn't a bulletin? There was a time a while back when if was discussed in the church I attend if we would continue having bulletins due to cost. We still do but it costs money. (I am NOT paid.) My husband and I give at least 10% of our gross income to the church. We also give to other ministries/charities outside our home church. We have not gone hungry or been without due to tithing.

To MercifullySaved - As others have said, 10% of nothing is nothing. Talking about giving is important. When I joined a church a while back (I no longer attend there) a tithe was considered the expectation of all members of the church. Attenders were encouraged to tithe; for members it was expected. It was discussed in the 'membership class'.

If your church has 'open books' you could ask the church treasurer for an accounting of what is given and where it goes. You might be suprised to find out what it costs to keep the church running, not including extra stuff like giving to missionaries, Sunday School material, bulletins, office expenses, ect. The 'stuff' I am talking about would enclude electric, water, waste removal, snow removal, building repairs, lawn mowing, denominational expectations (giving by the church to the main church headquarters to keep it running), ect. I know that the numbers suprised me when I saw them.

Michele

[cenimo]

Guess I'll try this again and see if anyone reads it this time. Most of the points being given in this thread for tithing are covered by this author.

From
www.GoToSimpleTruth.com

Lie of the Tithe a book on tithing and a full exposure of the practice of tithe collecting and the collection of tithes by churches.. Every scripture on tithes is contained in this book exposing the full truth about church tithes and the preaching of tithes from Malachi by many pulpits on tithing. The author pastored a church and never collected tithes or practiced tithing or the art of manipulating people into paying tithes.

Do you understand why God had the tither pay tithes in the Old Testament in the form of food and not money? Yes they did have money in the Old Testament. Why would God require tithes in the form of food?

Do you realize that the tither ATE the tithe in every instance in the Old Testament?
Why has the pulpit failed to teach you this truth?
http://www.gotosimpletruth.com/tith...pt_02-21-01.htm

Since this is a biblical fact that the tither ATE the tithe every time; ask yourself "how could the tither ever be charged with robbing God" of something that God provided and the tither was to eat anyhow.

Are you tired of hearing the phrase "Will a man rob God" shoved at you every Sunday? Wait until you see what God was really saying, and to whom He was really speaking to in the book Lie of the Tithe.
http://www.gotosimpletruth.com/tith...pt_02-21-01.htm

[semperfidelis]

Hi DJ :wave

Ok, if I am understnading yyou correctly its you and your hubby opinion that your church comes first. Thats fine, but I dont think its scriptual. I think (my opinion here) that a person needs to tithe how they are directed too. For example, I made a 1000.00 this month, and lets say Ministry A is my home church and Misnistry B is another Ministry. A is doing ok status quo, but B may need money this month because they need extra bibles to send to XYZ. I maybe be led to tithe soley to B this month or send B 80.00 and send A 20.00. I am tithing and the tithe is going to the work of God. I just dont find in scripture that I need to tithe strictly to a Home church. Now if your family chooses to do that, I respect it.

I think you should tithe and offer where God directs you. We should all lift this up in prayer and I think it is also important to pray over the tithe before it goes out. Pray for it to do good work and for your steps to be guided. I have been taught that we should tithe were we are being fed and that is usually your local Church. It could be other things as well but generally this is a good rule of thumb.

A great example that I read in a book was this, you tithe where you are being fed. If you eat at McDonalds you do not pay at Burger King.

Now, I am not saying that you will not be led from time to time to give to missionary organizations and other places that God might lead you to give.

[cjcfreedom]

Cenimo I believe people saw it they just want to keep debating. I don't have to read the book, I studied tithing for myself years ago. I'll go with Jesus and leave the Law of Moses back in the O.T.

I also understood from the O.T. the 10th or tithe was in order to support the Levitical Priesthood. The 10th that Abraham gave the Mechezedech was an offering to the Lord. However we learn in Hebrews that Jesus is a Priest after the Order of Melchezedec, however, with a duo nature not only is the Priest but he is also the Offering to the Lord. Therefore Jesus is my tithe, he is my offering unto God. I have nothing else to offer but my love. The Priest use to offer the sacrifices (tithes) up on the alter as a sweet smelling savor to the Lord. Jesus died on the cross he is our sweet smelling savor and more!

Also the tenth supported the infrastructure of the Levitical Priesthood. The Levites had no land of their own, had no "inheritance" as the other tribes of Israel. They were the Priest supported by all the tribes. In Christianity we have no priesthood, Jesus is the only priest.

Should we give as Christians YES, Christians should be the most generous people in the world. There is no limit on our love gifts, to one another, Jesus said if you have done it unto the least of these my brethern, you have done it unto me.

So then do well love one another give and share This is what the New Testament Church did. They gave to the churches that were in need. Sending gifts and packages to one another. They took care of the widow, the fatherless and the poor. The needy. Also, they gave love gifts to the Apostles especially those that were locked up for the cause of Christ. This type of giving has nothing to do with a 10th, but everyting to do with Love.

[lookup]

Our church is moving from renting out a local school cafeteria for services to a very prominent location on a very busy road. We're also changing from non-denominational to being a Calvary Chapel church.
I have been asked to attend these meetings for church leadership, and was given a list of things that are expected of me. One of them was that I tithe AT LEAST 10%. This just makes me absolutely nauseous. First of all, I don't even have a job. If they want to figure out what 10% of nothing is, by all means, be my guest. Second, there is no Biblical mandate to tithe 10%. If you want to be technical about it, tithing in the OT was around 30%, not 10%. Third, for them to expect something like that of me totally diminishes my giving spirit. I do give to the church, even though I'm a full-time, unemployed student. I do it because I have a heart that wants to give. But to think that this is expected of me...ugh, that's just not right.
How does everyone else feel about something like this?

You say that you were asked to attend "meetings for church leadership" when the expectation of tithing was raised. I think it is quite proper to expect leaders in the church to faithfully tithe. If the leaders don't, then how can the church expect faithful giving from others?

You say you have no job. How do you eat? How do you pay rent? I believe tithe refers to giving God the first fruits of our increase, however much that is. Surely you are receiving some kind of blessing from God. Just be willing to give back. Maybe, if you are truly on a zero income, yet still wish to give back to God, give Him ten percent of your time and talents. Of course, why stop there? Give Him twenty percent, thirty percent, and how ever much you can. Not because He'll strike you dead if you don't, but because you want to. If your pastor is expecting church leaders to give ten percent, and you truly have no income, then I would indicate this to the pastor, and let him know that you would like to give in other ways. Hopefully he will understand and be willing to accomodate other forms of giving.

I personally like the ten-percent rule. It's fair. It's equitable among church members. And it gets me in the habit of giving, which for me doesn't come naturally.

As to whether or not you should pay bills or tithe... that's a tough one. As responsible stewards, we are obligated to pay bills. But I must tell you from personal experience, that I have been able to do much more with 90% than with the full 100%. Even when I was a struggling student. I know it doesn't make logical sense. But I have always had more financial trouble when I didn't faithfully tithe than when I did, regardless of the size of the paycheck.

I don't believe tithing is necessarily a salvation issue, or that God won't bless you if you don't tithe. But faithfully giving to God (tithe or some other faithful percentage) is very much linked to spiritual discipline, I think. Something church leaders need in abundance.

Now, if we tithe to a church, I think it is important to determine if the leadership is being responsible with God's money. That's part of being a good steward, too.

WOF folks have taken this and twisted it very badly... but it does seem that whenever you give to God, He always gives back more than you ever gave Him. That doesn't mean if you give money, He will always give back more money. One thing is for sure, He has already given me more than I'm worth, by giving His Son for me. If He never gives me another thing, I'm already blessed beyond measure. Nothing that I could ever give Him would ever begin to equate with what He has done for me. When I think about that, I can gladly part with my tithe and offerings. And you know, done in the proper spirit, the action of tithing causes me to stop and think about what the Lord has done for me on a regular basis... and at the time when I need to do this the most, when I am sitting down to pay my bills ('cause that's when I write out my tithe check). Never hurts to have your own personal worship service to God just before paying those bills!

[semperfidelis]

The tithe was before the Law. I am wondering when people are finally going to read the bible and understand that Genesis and Abraham was before the law of Moses!

The tithe is a standard in Gods word. It was before the law, through the law and after the law.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

[cjcfreedom]

Right Old Testament Talking To The Jews... Wake Up Everybody!

[hannahrachel]

Do they plan on getting your tax return to verify you gave the 10%? :twitch
Hi Ladybug,
Wow this is my favorite scripture, hurray Jesus, I can just be me faults and all and know that Jesus still loves me! :)

[semperfidelis]

Right Old Testament Talking To The Jews... Wake Up Everybody!

CJ, perhaps everyone else understood what you were saying here but you lost me.

Could you expand on that.

What are you waking everyone up to?

[Gary]

Just MHO, but I firmly believe that if you're extremely unhappy with any aspect of church "politics", you should find a new church. I attended the Wesleyan church in Trenton for 9 1/2 years. I found after some time that I was doing more complaining about policies, practices, administrative actions and so forth that it was really hampering my ability to lead in the church (I was choir director), or reap anything from the message. Eventually it got to the point where we had to pull up stakes and look for a new church. I know at least a dozen other familes that left as well.

[hannahrachel]

Our church is moving from renting out a local school cafeteria for services to a very prominent location on a very busy road. We're also changing from non-denominational to being a Calvary Chapel church.
I have been asked to attend these meetings for church leadership, and was given a list of things that are expected of me. One of them was that I tithe AT LEAST 10%. This just makes me absolutely nauseous. First of all, I don't even have a job. If they want to figure out what 10% of nothing is, by all means, be my guest. Second, there is no Biblical mandate to tithe 10%. If you want to be technical about it, tithing in the OT was around 30%, not 10%. Third, for them to expect something like that of me totally diminishes my giving spirit. I do give to the church, even though I'm a full-time, unemployed student. I do it because I have a heart that wants to give. But to think that this is expected of me...ugh, that's just not right.
How does everyone else feel about something like this?

Hey you could be like me and chatized because the pastor heard I was giving 10% to people I knew needed financial help! I guess the pastor must of needed the money really bad to beat down a person because I wasn't following the rules! But, that is me unconventional all the way and loving it. I cannot tell you the whole story, but this was one reason I left this church(cult) pastor had assumed the Lords role and had his own plan for salvation.
I know and did repent of this, but it is kinda funny, I asked the assistant pastor(as the pastor was late), Where is the pastor? I asked, ooops, I forgot maybe his big head won't fit out his front door anymore! LOL! Of course, the assistant pastor gave me grief for saying that, but now the assistant has his own church because he wouldn't testify to the church board of the pastors actions, such as announcing to the whole church a persons personal problem to have everyone pray for them(this one done to spot light the person in sin), redirect peoples eyes on someone other then him. This pastors church did finally break in two, one because of finances, I think this was one of the reasons the assistant left, he knew too much! I think tithing is a personal thing that we each should do in whatever way the Lord instructs us, it is not the churches business to be looking so hard, this pastor was checking names on checks to see who was and wasn't tithing, of course my way was just his biggest problem, afterall what if his whole church decided to 10% to those in need. He couldn't have that, so off I went to about more than I can count churches. Now I spend all day everyday with Him and I won't go to church, because none of them can agree with each other on what it takes to get to heaven. I just have faith and the opportunity to repent and thank G-d for Jesus and His grace and mercy! Many blessings to you and yours, hannah
PS I will pray for you and others that the Lord will set the money problems in churches in order for His good purposes. Thanks for the message on the board, I think it will help a lot of stuggling people, in hard times! :)

[cjcfreedom]

The tithe was before the Law. I am wondering when people are finally going to read the bible and understand that Genesis and Abraham was before the law of Moses!

The tithe is a standard in Gods word. It was before the law, through the law and after the law.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

I'm sorry I was referring to this above post. I don't know why some people insist upon being under the law of the O.T. We have something better than Abraham, Moses and the Israelites. We have Christ who fullfilled the law. :clap

Its not anything unusal though even Peter wanted to remain under the law and exclude the Gentiles. And there were some in the church that wanted to say that circumsion was still a requirement for salvation. Its not and neither is tithing to the Levites. You know, you couldn't just tithe to anyone, it HAD to be the Levites or a Priest after the order of Mechlezedec (sp?). Jesus is our Priest and Our Offering. Read Hebrews!

Oh and you are right an offering was the "standard" in God's word. That's why we have Jesus. He is our offering, either you accept what he did for you or NOT. Up to you. :thumb

[hannahrachel]

Just MHO, but I firmly believe that if you're extremely unhappy with any aspect of church "politics", you should find a new church. I attended the Wesleyan church in Trenton for 9 1/2 years. I found after some time that I was doing more complaining about policies, practices, administrative actions and so forth that it was really hampering my ability to lead in the church (I was choir director), or reap anything from the message. Eventually it got to the point where we had to pull up stakes and look for a new church. I know at least a dozen other familes that left as well.

You were lucky that was the only problem in your Wesleyan Church, I don't exactly know what the problems are with the wesleyans, most of their churches have internal problems. Just so happens the wesleyan church I went to, split in two. I even had warned the pastor of the impending doom 6 months before it happened, but he laughed in my face, now I can, I thought telling him a dream (which I knew was from G-d) in which an earthquake in damascus, md. had broken this wesleyan church in two and none of the sheep could find the shepard or any elders for that matter, we were lost! It happened, not by earthquake but by the sheep pounding on his door and getting no respect back. But just as always from this tragidy out of it came three new churches, all much better than the first. All is well that ends well. You are right to help this person by telling them to leave if they are not happy, I did not leave the church right away and ended up having a nervous breakdown over it. Even though, yup, the Lord had warned me to leave months earlier. Now I listen very carefully to the Lords directions. With many blessings, hannah

[semperfidelis]

I'm sorry I was referring to this above post. I don't know why some people insist upon being under the law of the O.T. We have something better than Abraham, Moses and the Israelites. We have Christ who fullfilled the law. :clap

Its not anything unusal though even Peter wanted to remain under the law and exclude the Gentiles. And there were some in the church that wanted to say the circumsion was still a requirement. Its not and neither is tithing to the Levites. You know, you couldn't just tithe to anyone, it HAD to be the Levites or a Priest after the order of Mechlezedec (sp?). Jesus is our Priest and Our Offering. Read Hebrews!

CJ, its fine. I love the debate because there is truth to be found here. I think your missing the point on the tithe.

The thing you need to understand is that the tithe was around before the law and that means it was a standard.

Honestly I think the argument that surrounds the tithe is created so that people will not have to do what is commanded. It is convenient in that we can kind of set our own rules. That alone sends up a warning flag to me.

Jesus is our atonement but I think the standard in the word about giving continue to apply. I believe in it and I have seen it work. It works for the individual as much as it does the kingdom.

Tithes and offerings are put in place as much for us as they are for the kingdom. It is part of worship and I think it is an important part of submitting that part of our lives to the Lord.

Did you know that Jesus spoke about money and possessions more than anything else in his parables? It was either the top thing or close to it.

Why do you think that is?

He knew.

[MNGirl]

Do people who think they don't need to tithe because it was in the OT, do they also ignore the Ten Commandments? To the best of my knowledge, that was OT as well. Or are they not under that law either? Or since this is a Rapture BB, lets throw out Ezekiel 37 - 39. That was OT so we don't need to pay any attention to it.

If that's the case, I'm taking my tithe to the bar tonight.

[cjcfreedom]

Jesus also fulfilled the 10 commandments he fullfilled every single law and left us a new law, that to love one another. We are of course to pay attention to the O.T. it points to all the blessings we have in Christ.

If you'd like to take 10% of your financial blessings from the Lord and spend it at a bar that's up to you. But don't you think it would be better spent on doing something loving for someone who needs it?

For instance if you have a Christian friend that has no way to pay her rent (maybe she lost her job) for whatever reason she needs $1000 while its may be more than 10% of your income, rather give money to a bartender wouldn't it better to give it to her and "do it unto Jesus"? Yes, of course it would be better. Jesus said if whatever you do to the brethern you are doing it for the Lord. So then its not about 10% is it, no its about loving one another and caring for the needs of the believers.

One more point, if you are a Christian and obey the law of love, you will not steal, kill, murder, lie, cheat, etc. The Thow shalt nots are covered by the law of LOVE. If you love Christ you are loving God and putting him first.

[MercifullySaved]

Boy, did I ever open a can of worms with THIS thread! :faint :heh
Thank you all for your responses. This has definitely given me more to think and pray over, regarding this issue.
Again, I want to stress that the issue for me is not that I don't want to give; it's that I don't think that it's the place of the church institution to tell people what they should or should not give. Believe me, I love to give, and feel no strain or worry that we do give weekly. He is Lord of my life AND my finances! :):
And y'all need to quit taking Malachi out of context! :heh ;):

[cjcfreedom]

Yes, I know Jesus spoke about money in his parables not to talk about "money per se" but as examples of being a good steward of what God has given you.

I am personally not going to reject Christ offering for me by trying to offer something else. Should we give absolutely the Bible teaches that a man will pay for what he loves. If we love our place of worship we will support it -- the Lord loves a cheerful giver! Again, when you love something do you put a limit on how much you'll give to it? NO! YOu don't limit how much you'll spend on your children you love them, if they have needs, whether its 100% of your pay check or if you are an american, you'll go beyond your pay check and use your credit to supply the needs of your family.

I am not missing any points. I have done a solid study of tithing vs. giving. I tellyou what in all those parables Christ preached, you won't find the word "tithe" or tenth! Unless it was to berate the Pharisees for their crimes against "LOVE", MERCY AND JUDGMENT." Note again who Jesus was talking to the Pharisees not Christians. The warning here is not about the Tithe but about the WEIGHTER MATTERS, the matters that really concern the Lord. Also note they weren't tithing MONEY but "herbs"!

Matthew 23:23 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42 - But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[ChopinFan]

The issue for me is being TOLD to give AT LEAST 10%. Whether or not I am employed is really irrelevant. I think that giving/tithing is an issue between each individual and God rather than between each individual and the church. To whom am I accountable? Even in church leadership, I am ultimately only responsible to God.
Basically, in my opinion, it's none of the church's business whether I give to them or not, because like you said, I may just give to different ministries. I have a very giving heart, but I don't like being TOLD to give. :sigh

Hi there,

I doubt that I can add much that you haven't already read or heard a 1000 times but here goes. Whether you know it or not, you are laying a foundation for your future ministry. We live in a culture where accountability isn't really placed as a high priority, therefore we resist any attempt to bring us to submission. My denomination requires me as a pastor to tithe to our local church. I have no problem with that whatsoever, and that's the deal I signed onto when I came on board.

Think about all the parables of Jesus that used money as the primary object lesson. Paul said that it is "required in stewards that a man be found faithful." You may not realize it now (and I'm not trying to sound condescending) but one day you may be in the position of senior pastor and you will realize how difficult it is to accomplish work for the kingdom without the consistent giving from the church's faithful members. When it comes time to make major decisions at the church (and believe me you will face them-whether it be carpet upgrades, plumbing repairs, or heaven forbid- a new building) you will look to your congregation to help in the decision-making process. And I guarantee you the people to whom you will look for input will not be the ones who refuse to give consistently to the local church. I'm not talking about a hierarchy whereby the one who gives the most has the biggest say so in the church. I'm talking about people giving consistantly as they are able. People who give themselves to the Lord first, and then give of their temporal means to the best of their ability.

If you cannot joyfully submit to the requirements of your association/denomination then I would suggest that you look for another church in which you can serve. The scriptures declare "how can two walk together except they be agreed.." If I read correctly I see that you are out of work. You said that fact was irrelevant to the discussion but I wonder if that's really the case. Perhaps the requirements seem so out of whack for you right now because things are tight financially. If I had someone like you in my church who was looking for work and on a limited income- I would not forbid you from serving as a leader in our church. I would simply ask if there were other ways to "tithe" (if you want to use that terminology) to the church. Perhaps more of your time/resources/energy. As a matter of fact I would probably see if there was some way that we could help you financially or to find work in the meantime.

Ecclesiastes 10:19 Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything. (NASB)

It takes money to do ministry- and I don't think it's that far out of line to ask those in leadership to pledge to support the church with their giving.

[Rebecki]

I didn't read the whole thread, just the first and last pages, but wanted to share what we did/do with the tithing issue.

There is no way we could tithe 10% of our cash income, and when we are able to tithe in cash, we do it in cash. I do not like the idea of a church keeping tabs on how much I tithe or don't tithe. I'd rather keep it between my family and God. If they ask if we tithe, the answer would be yes, but not in ways that can be tracked by man.

Also, we have given sooooo much in time and effort that I'm sure we have matched the 10% required by the OT law. I do not believe that tithing is a NT mandate.

Toby, I totally understand where you are coming from, and in these days of mega-churches sprouting up on every corner, I would be leary of anyone telling me that I have to tithe or that I am expected to tithe a certain amount. No doubt there is an agenda there with a $$$ goal to meet.

On a side note... we used to attend a Calvary Chapel (as do many here on RR) and found it a very strong, bible teaching church (although the fellowship was very cold and unwelcoming).

[DJHere]

Guess I'll try this again and see if anyone reads it this time. Most of the points being given in this thread for tithing are covered by this author.

From
www.GoToSimpleTruth.com


Do you understand why God had the tither pay tithes in the Old Testament in the form of food and not money? Yes they did have money in the Old Testament. Why would God require tithes in the form of food?

Do you realize that the tither ATE the tithe in every instance in the Old Testament?
Why has the pulpit failed to teach you this truth?
http://www.gotosimpletruth.com/tith...pt_02-21-01.htm

What you have stated is simply not true for no where do you see it recorded that Abraham a