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Resting In Him
June 21st, 2005, 11:32 AM
THE BELIEVER'S STANDING AND STATE

A distinction of vast importance to the right understanding of the Scriptures, especially of the Epistles, is that which concerns the standing or position of the believer, and his state, or walk. The first is the result of the work of Christ and is perfect and entire from the very moment that Christ is received by faith. Nothing in the afterlife of the believer adds in the smallest degree to his title of favor with God, nor to his perfect security. Through faith alone this standing before God is conferred, and before Him the weakest person, if he be but a true believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, has precisely the same title as the most illustrious saint.

What that title or standing is, may be briefly seen from the following Scriptures: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1).

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17).

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" 0 Pet. 1:4-5).

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance" (Eph. 1: 11).

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God; and it doth not ye appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like him" (I John 3:2).

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation" (I Pet. 2:9).

"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Rev. 1:5-6).

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power" (Col. 2: 10).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 5:1-2).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (I John 5:13).

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus" (Heb. 10: 19).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all- spiritual blessings" (Eph. 1:3).

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6).

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved), and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4-6).

"But now, in Christ Jesus, ye who sometime were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Chfist" (Eph. 2:13).

"In whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1: 13).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (I Cor. 12:13).

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" (Eph. 5:30).

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost?" (I Cor. 6:19).

Every one of these marvelous things is true of every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ. Not one item in this glorious inventory is said to be gained by prayer, or diligence in service, or churchgoing, or alms- giving, or self-denial, or holiness of life, or by any other description of good works. All are gifts of God through Christ and therefore belong equally to all believers. When the jailor of Philippi believed on the Lord Jesus Christ he became at once a child of God, a joint heir with Christ, a king and priest, and had the title to the incorruptible, undefiled, and unfading inheritance. In the instant that he believed with his heart and confessed with his mouth that Jesus was his Lord, he was justified from all things, had peace with God, a standing in His grace, and a sure hope of glory. He received the gift of eternal life, was made accepted in the full measure of Christ's own acceptance, was indwelt by, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, by whom also he was baptized into the mystical body of Christ- the church of God. Instantly he was clothed with the righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22), quickened with Christ, raised with Him, and in Him seated in the heavenlies.

What his actual state may have been is quite another mattercertainly it was far, far below his exalted standing in the sight of God. It was not all at once that he became as royal, priestly, and heavenly in walk as he was at once in standing. The following passages will indicate the way one's standing and one's state are constantly discriminated in the Scriptures.

STANDING

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus . . . I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ that in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 1:2-9).

"But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (I Cor. 6:11).

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?" (I Cor. 6:15).

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17).

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Col. 1: 12-13).

STATE

"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you" (I Cor. 1:11).

"And 1, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal . . . For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (I Cor. 3:1-3).

"Now some are puffed up" (I Cor. 4:18).

"And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you" (I Cor. 5:2).

"Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another" (I Cor. 6:7).

"Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot?" (I Cor. 6:15).

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou art an offence unto me; for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23).

"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds" (Col. 3:8-9).

The student cannot fail to notice that the divine order, under grace, is first to give the highest possible standing and then to exhort the believer to maintain a state in accordance therewith. The beggar is lifted up from the dung-hill and set among princes (I Sam. 2:8), and then exhorted to be princely. As examples, see the following verses.

STANDING

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed" (Rom. 6:6).

"Ye are the light of the world" (Matt. 5:14).

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9).

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6).

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col. 3:4).

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord" (Eph. 5:8).

"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" (I Thess. 5:5).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him" (I Thess. 5:9-10).

"By the which will we are sanctified, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb. 10:10).

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us . . . sanctification" (I Cor. 1:30).

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Heb. 10:14).

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded" (Phil. 3:15).

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world" (I John 4:17).

STATE

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?" (Col. 2:20).

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:16).

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). (Let it be observed, in reading this much-abused text, that the salvation spoken of here is not that of the soul, but salvation out of the snares which would hinder the Christian from doing the will of God.)

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" (Col. 3: 1).

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth" (Col. 3:5).

"Walk as children of light" (Eph. 5:8).

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (I Thess. 5:6).

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do" (I Thess. 5:11).

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17).

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" (I Thess. 5:23).

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect" (Phil. 3:12).

"Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection" (Heb. 6: 1).

"He that saith he abideth in him, ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (I John 2:6).

The student will be able to add largely to this list of comparative passages showing that the Scripture makes a clear distinction between the standing and state of the believer. It will be seen that he is not under probation to see if he is worthy of an inconceivably exalted position, but, beginning with the confession of his utter unworthiness, receives the position wholly as the result of Christ's work. Positionally he is "perfected forever" (Heb. 10: 14), but looking within, at his state, he must say, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect" (Phil. 3:12).

It may be said that all the afterwork of God in his behalf, the application of the Word to his walk and conscience (John 17:17; Eph. 5:26), the chastisements of the Father's hand (Heb. 12:10; 1 Cor. 11:32), the ministry of the Spirit (Eph. 4:11-12), all the difficulties and trials of the wilderness way (I Pet. 4:12-14), and the final transformation when He shall appear (I John 3:2), all are intended simply to bring the believer's character into perfect conformity to the position which is his in the instant of his conversion. He grows in grace, indeed, but not into grace.

A prince, while he is a little child, is presumably as willful and as ignorant as other little children. Sometimes he may be very obedient and teachable and affectionate, and then he is happy and approved; at other times he may be unruly, self-willed, and disobedient, and then he is unhappy and perhaps is chastised. But he is just as much a prince on the one day as on the other. It may be hoped that, as time goes on, he will learn to bring himself into willing and affectionate subjection to every right way, and then he will be more princely, but not more really a prince. He was born a prince.

In the case of every true son of the King of kings, and Lord of lords, this growth into kingliness is assured. In the end, standing and state, character and position, will be equal. But the position is not the reward of the perfected character-the character is developed from the position.


http://www.raptureme.com/resource/scofield/s8.htm

blitzkreig
June 21st, 2005, 12:36 PM
THE BELIEVER'S STANDING AND STATE

A distinction of vast importance to the right understanding of the Scriptures, especially of the Epistles, is that which concerns the standing or position of the believer, and his state, or walk. The first is the result of the work of Christ and is perfect and entire from the very moment that Christ is received by faith. Nothing in the afterlife of the believer adds in the smallest degree to his title of favor with God, nor to his perfect security.
http://www.raptureme.com/resource/scofield/s8.htm :amen

Larry B
June 21st, 2005, 12:42 PM
:amen:amen

Resting In Him
June 21st, 2005, 01:18 PM
:amen :focus :lol

blitzkreig
June 21st, 2005, 07:43 PM
The believer’s standing has to do with his position in Christ. It is a perfect, unchangeable work that has been accomplished by God. Positionally, we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. In regard to redemption for example, the moment we believe the gospel our sins (past, present, and future) are forgiven according to the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:7).

That’s our position; it’s like the water flowing over Niagara Falls—constant!


.

Benja32one
June 21st, 2005, 08:15 PM
The believer’s standing has to do with his position in Christ. It is a perfect, unchangeable work that has been accomplished by God. Positionally, we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. In regard to redemption for example, the moment we believe the gospel our sins (past, present, and future) are forgiven according to the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:7).

That’s our position; it’s like the water flowing over Niagara Falls—constant!


.

:doh
Did you know the only way to stop that 'preaching crow' is to hit the quote button? I did.
:pound

blitzkreig
June 21st, 2005, 11:12 PM
:doh
Did you know the only way to stop that 'preaching crow' is to hit the quote button? I did.
:pound He is like the Eveready Rabbit ...


.

blitzkreig
June 21st, 2005, 11:31 PM
from Joel Finck and a book I am starting called "The Mystery":

In Ephesians 2:6 - "And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in
heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Our position today in Christ is based on His
position. Where is Christ? He's seated in the heavenlies. Where are we
positionally? We're seated in the heavenlies. Someday we will be experientially
seated in the heavenlies. We don't experience that now. All we experience now is
sitting here on earth. We've never experienced sitting in Heaven. But we do have
that position. Someday God will come and catch away the Body of Christ. The
Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and He will catch away
those who are alive and remain. And, of course, those who have died in this
dispensation will also be brought out of their graves and we will be caught away
to meet the Lord in the air and we will be forever with the Lord.
This is the hope of the Body of Christ. Believers in other ages had an earthly
hope. We have a heavenly hope.

Timothy
June 22nd, 2005, 12:23 AM
Thanks for posting RIH. I've been using the terms "position" and "practice" for years. The term "standing" ties into Paul's usage of "stand."

James122
June 22nd, 2005, 12:57 AM
Sites Against Eternal Security

http://www.dnbpublishing.com/Testimonies/sites_against_eternal_security.html

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Below are links to sites that biblically refute the doctrine of eternal security. Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved or Perseverance of the Saints is the most damaging doctrine ever concocted by man centered Christianity. This doctrine is a poison perforating into almost every Christian home in the world. It is up to the few of us that know otherwise to tell others or most will surely go to hell.

Arminian Defined - Of or relating to the theology of Jacobus Arminius and his followers, who rejected the Calvinist doctrines of predestination and election and who believed that human free will is compatible with God’s sovereignty. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed. 2000.

Calvinism is considered a Christian Worldview.

Arminianism is also considered a Christian Worldview.

So why do Calvinists get hostile or consider a person who claims to be Arminian not to be saved? Why do Calvinists want to stamp out Arminianism? Is it because Calvinists like their “security in sin Gospel?” Arminians simply hold to a holiness theolgy that believes Christ died for all, not just the elect as Calvinist claim. Arminians state a Christian has to endure to the end of their life living in full devotion to Jesus Christ to claim their reward of eternal salvation. Why are Calvinists so abrasive to this doctrine?

Below are several websites that hold to the Arminian view. If you want to really see what Calvinists believe then go to Evangelical Outreach and read how John Calvin murdered over 56 people in his day because they did not believe his doctrine.

EVANGELICAL OUTREACH
Eternal Security - Fact or Fiction?
The Fallacy of the Sinning Christian
Greek Grammar Syntax Verses Calvinism
ETERNALSECURITY.COM
EASY CHRISTIANITY
BIBLICAL THEOLOGY - The parent web page to "Eternal Security: A Biblical Perspective."
Once Saved Always Saved is Wrong!
Corrections of the Misunderstandings of OSAS Scriptures
The Way to Heaven, According to the Bible
Smyrna-Also contains a link to the CLOISTER FORUM.
What is an Arminian? - by John Wesley
Arminian Archive
Arminian - Advanced information.
Asbury College - A Wesleyan/Arminian educational view.
Arminian Bible Study - Where to Be Free Ministries
Arminian Magazine Index - Hundreds of articles against Calvinism
Oak Hill Gospel Tabernacle - A West Virginia congregation
Wikipedia (free encyclopedia) - definition of Arminianism with many links associated with this Protestant doctrine.
Synod of Dort - Articles outlined by the Arminians (Remonstrants). This site uses the articles in the Synod of Dort to prove Arminianism is wrong by posting them on their website. If you read the articles a clear thinking Christian should be able to see that Arminianism is a very sound doctrine and is in more in-line with the Bible than Calvinism.

[DNB Publishing]

James122
June 22nd, 2005, 01:04 AM
Eternal Security Vs. Responsibility

http://www.raptureready.com/rap43.html

Eternal security: the belief that once a person accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior, he can never be lost. Eternal security sounds great until you realize that this doctrine allows people to commit every sin under the sun without suffering any consequences for their complete lack of holy living.

Why most people lack any concern for their eternal salvation is the most baffling question I can ponder. The Bible says that few people will choose to make heaven their eternal home. (Mat 7:13-14) The Bible and man are in sharp conflict with each other because most folks expect to be bound for heaven when they leave this world.

It's no accident that most people are deceived about their eternal destiny. Satan, who is described as the enemy of mankind, has made the damnation of souls his full-time job. Of course, everyone who's been hoodwinked by the devil into believing a lie only has himself or herself to blame for the poor judgment.

Satan doesn't come knocking on everyone's door saying, "Excuse me, could I please deceive you into losing your eternal soul." The devil and his fallen angels have a much smoother approach. They labor 24 hours a day, seven days a week to dream up new schemes that have men following paths that appear to be the way to heaven, but that in reality lead to a dead end called “hell.”

The all-pervasive eternal security teaching has to rank as one of the devil's favorite tools for deceiving man into neglecting or turning away from God's plan of salvation.

Alarm bells should have sounded immediately the first time it was made known that eternal security allows its adherents to sin as they please.

I'm amazed that a doctrine so contrary to the Word of God could have so many people relying upon it as their means of salvation. Jesus said, "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mat 24:13). For someone to think they can just claim Jesus as their Savior and go on living a life of iniquity is ridiculous. Jesus told us in Mat 7:23 that when Judgment Day comes, He'll be saying to many, "...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."




The Need For Open-Mindedness
I'm very familiar with the average person's love for eternal security. Some folks cling to this doctrine with a mind so closed that it can only be described as a steel vault that has been welded shut on both sides.
I just hope these people checked the Word of God before sealing themselves into vault. Several people have told me, "I don't know where it says in the Bible I have eternal security, I just know somehow it's there."

Who in his right mind would buy a house without seeing it first, and who would be foolish enough to invest his eternal destiny in a doctrine that he didn’t thoroughly verify?

One of the main reasons the Book of James was written was to combat the false doctrine of eternal security. When I point out James' comments on the matter-- "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)—many refuse to believe the words that are right in front of their eyes.

I get reactions like: "What version is your Bible?," "Yea, but did you check the meaning in the original Greek?," "Dose it say that anywhere else in the Bible?," Or at times I get no reaction it all.

When I was a young Christian, I heard the eternal security message and thought it sounded great. However, being a wise little Christian, I checked for opposing Scriptures and found plenty, so I ask you to please read this with an open mind.




A Three-Way Warning
In researching this article, I was primarily looking for warnings that applied to Christians who think they can remain in sin. As I was looking through the Book of Ezekiel, I found a passage that serves as a very good warning to the wicked, the wayward saints, and to all Christian leaders.

”Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand” (Ezekiel 3:19-20).
The warning to the Christian leaders shouldn't go by without comment. I would guess a near majority of our nation's preachers believes in eternal security. I'm not going to read the riot act to anyone who teaches eternal security. But I will say that preaching responsibility instead of eternal security is a move you just can't go wrong by making.




Grace Demands Responsibility
In the Bible, there are several passages in which God promises us the gift of eternal life, and the Bible also makes it perfectly clear that we can never earn that gift. However, a problem develops when people start to think that they don't need to show any responsibilities towards God's gift of salvation.

I have read several authors who believe in eternal security and each of them only searches for references that reflect God's commitment to saving us. After digging a little deeper, I found a gold mine of evidence that everyone who's under God's grace needs to accept that dreaded word, “responsibility.”


“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Matthew 7:21-22).

”Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” (1 Timothy 4:1).

”And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Exodus 32:33).

”He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels” (Revelation 3:5).

”For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:4-6).

”And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46).



God Didn't Include Any Exemptions
You can just about open up your Bible to any page and find a reference to God's hatred of sin. No one, after reading the Bible from cover to cover, should be able to make the conclusion that God winks at iniquity. In several places, God lists the types of conduct He simply refuses to tolerate. When I read the following Scriptures, I failed to spot any exemptions allowing Christians to ignore God's warnings:

”Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15).

”This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away” (2 Tim 3:1-5).

”But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

”For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22).

”But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat” (1 Corinthians 5:11).


A License To Sin
I think the most flagrant problem with the “once-saved-always-save” doctrine is the notion that people can confess to be a Christians, and yet live a life so depraved that the devil himself would refuse to associate with them. Those who promote eternal security never mention the fact that people openly abuse the sin option. I remember one prime example:

One day I was talking with a gentleman about prophecy, and from the start I was aware of the fact he was smoking, which usually doesn't bother me. However, when he begin using profanity, that did bother me.

I thought it would be a good idea to ask him whether he believed that Christians could miss out on the rapture. He, of course, didn't think it was possible for believers to fall away, causing them to miss the rapture. As the conversation progressed, or better said digressed, he continued to chain smoke, curse repeatedly, and refer to certain racial groups by using inappropriate terms.

He had little knowledge of the Bible, but he did know all the once-saved-always-saved Scriptures by heart. I quoted several responsibility Scriptures to him, but he refused to ponder one them. It was like talking to a member of some mind-control cult.

Somehow, we got to talking about his smoking habit, and he gave me an explanation that I just could not believe. This guy, with a straight face. explained to me that because he's a child of God, whatever he did was God's will being done.

He pointed to the cigarette he was smoking and said, “I'm smoking this because God wants me to, and when He wants me to stop, He'll tell me.” I should have asked him, "How could it be the Lord's will that Christians should cheat on their spouses or abuse their children?" I've heard this demonic theory before, but I never thought I'd meet anyone who believed it.

Well, after several hours of listening to his "it God's will" reasoning and after realizing I was getting nowhere, I decided I had enough. I bluntly told him, "That cigarette you have in your hand is your god, and until you make Jesus Christ number one in your life, you will never see the Kingdom of God."

His reaction amazed me. He cursed God's name, saying, "There is no [expletive] way He is going to leave one of His own behind." It really wasn't the cursing that amazed me; what amazed me was that fact he had no idea that the Bible and his beliefs were so contradictory to the Bible.




Few There Be That Find It
In America, about 84 percent of its citizens claim to be "Christians," and a reported 57 percent belong to a church. When asked if they think they'll be going to heaven, more than 90 percent of Americans believe that heaven will be their final destination.

Despite this people's overwhelming optimism, Jesus, in Matthew 7:13-14, said that few would be saved. I've been asking people what they believe all my life, and I've found a very large portion of society holds to some form of the once-saved-always-saved doctrine.

Several people have told me that they have eternally settled the issue long ago. This is from people who openly smoke, swear, lie, cheat, or you name it. In order for Jesus to be telling the truth, eternal security would have to be an absolute falsehood.

Knowing that the odds are already stacked against us, for someone to come along and offer us a "guaranteed" ticket to glory and an unlimited option to sin as I so desire, our reaction should be, "Get thee behind me Satan!"




Some Examples From The Bible
Saul, King Of Israel
A number of preachers will tell you that Saul, the first king of Israel, was saved when he died. They may believe that, but what does the Word of God say regarding Saul's fate?


”So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse (1 Chronicles 10:13-14).
If this describes a faithful saint of God going home to glory, then I guess I don't understand plain English.




Ananias And Sapphira
The once-saved-always-saved folks will also tell you that Ananias and Sapphira died saved, but again, what does the Bible say:


”But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband” (Acts 5:1-10).
These two people were liars, and what does the Bible say about liars? In Revelation 21:8, it says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."




Those That Change Their Minds
Another bizarre argument that the eternal security crowd propagates is the idea that once you decide to become a Christian, you can never change your mind. Once you're in, there's no escape. From what Bible did this cultic teaching come? Certainly not the one I'm using.

The Apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 2:21 that it would "had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Not only did Peter say that believers can turn away, but he said it would be better for them to not have become aware of something that would end up haunting them throughout all eternity.

One excuse I hear a lot in an attempt to explain how someone can seem to fall away is the statement that "these people never really believed in the first place." I have known people who were saved miraculously, yet they fell away. If their salvation wasn't legitimate, then I'd have to doubt honesty of every of all confessions.





Causing Your Brother To Stumble
Even if the advocates of eternal security were somehow correct in their position, they would still be in gross violation of a doctrine that Paul laid out in Romans 14:14-20.

The Apostle Paul told the Romans that even though there's nothing scripturally wrong with eating meat sacrificed to idols, they shouldn't do so, because if a brother saw them eating the meat, they could cause him to stumble, due to the fact he may not know there's nothing evil about consuming pagan meat.

Now consider Paul's advise in light of those who think they should be able live impure lives. If you're the only Christian at your workplace, and at your next office party you get drunk as a skunk, doesn't that tell your unsaved co-workers, drinking booze is okay with God?

If we were going to rectify Paul's writings in Romans with the examples that many Christians are setting today, we would have Paul jumping up on a table and offering praises to almighty Zeus for this wonderful meal.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus spoke of anyone who would cause little children to stumble, He said, "...it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea."





Rewards
When we leave this world behind, the only thing we'll be taking with us is the works we have performed. In heaven, the status and rewards that God will bestowing upon us are completely determined by what we achieve down here on earth.
If you're someone whose only goal is just to get by, I think you need to reconsider your retirement plan. Jesus told His disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2).

Many Christians are expecting receive a mansion from Jesus, but if our works are what Jesus will be using to build that mansion, the only thing some people should be expecting is a grass hut with a dirt floor.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting" (Gal 6:7-8).

If all you've done is sown to the flesh, then how can you possibly think you'll be reaping from anything but the flesh?





In Conclusion
Finally, if there really were a shred of truth to the eternal security doctrine, Jesus would have had preacher spreading the Gospel in an entirely different way than the method currently being used. Evangelists would simply be on street corners with sign-up sheets yelling, "Just sign your name, folks, and we'll fill-out the paperwork for you." Everyone would be saved and hell would be a very lonely place.

Unfortunately, because of doctrines such as eternal security, hell has had to enlarge itself to make room for the millions of lost souls who have been deceived into going there (Isaiah 5:14).

Like it or not, every one of us is involved in a race, with heaven as the finish line. I don't think it matters with God how well you run the race. What He's looking for is whether or not you stay in the race. I like how one preacher put it: "When you come through the pearly gates, you may be so spiritually week that you'll need two angels on each side of you to keep you from falling over."

At times, the road may appear long and difficult. But if you keep your mind focused on the prize, I'm confident you can make it. "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him" (James 1:12).

Resting In Him
June 22nd, 2005, 03:06 AM
One can choose to either believe Jesus is their Savior or not. It's their choice. But I would encourage anyone who doubts their eternal position in Christ to realize they cannot build upon any other foundation than the once offered sacrifice on the cross by Jesus Christ. We accept His crucifixion as a completed and eternal payment for sin(s). Having then been pardoned and escaped the eternal consequences of being without a Savior, we then realize our full justification before a Holy God. If, however, after receiving the free gift of salvation, and having realized their position is one of having been crucified with Christ and risen to newness of life in Him, if they fall back under a legal system whereby one must keep themself, they have fallen from grace. Such a person must continue to walk in obedience in order to maintain an already perfected salvation. This then becomes a work to maintain salvation which ultimately denies the completed and finished work of Christ and His ability to save eternally. It becomes a grievious proclamation that Jesus is not the good Shepherd who saves to the utmost, but a failure in not being able to save for all of eternity.

We simply obey because we are saved.....not to be saved.

Without the complete assurance of salvation one's Blessed Hope sadly becomes a Blessed Wishful Thinking for how would one know precisely, without any doubt, whether or not they would continue faithfully in the Christian walk. It can only become a dismal walk, without the true joy of Salvation. Not the kind of joy one feels in their emotions, but an inward joy unspeakable and full of glory. A peace that can be explained only by experience from within.

Our hope is totally dependant on Jesus to complete His promise and fullfill it to completion. Our position is already that of being seated in the heavenlies.
Our walk is a process of growing in the knowledge and grace of Jesus, and to what extent we are faithful and allow His life to be lived though us will determine, not our salvation, but our eternal rewards. Many will be saved as by fire only. I'm certain that those who are struggling to hang on to a salvation that is already guaranteed and purchased for them, will face Jesus with amazement when they fully understand what He accomplished for them.

Hope without assurance is false hope. That is the end result of failing to understand the salvation message. :(:

I would have to say that to be self-reliant rather than dependant upon the finished work of Jesus is a dangerous method for ones' eternal security and assured. :freaked

Timothy
June 22nd, 2005, 10:07 AM
Todd Strandberg's View

Please see these past threads for detailed rebuttals. The "gospel" advocated by Todd and Dan Corner clearly teaches a works-based salvation that is conditionally based on one's personal righteousness (works).

All of Your Sin is NOT Forgiven!
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=196907

Rebuttal: "Eternal Security vs. Responsibility"
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=173860

blitzkreig
June 22nd, 2005, 02:42 PM
So why do Calvinists get hostile or consider a person who claims to be Arminian not to be saved? Because they are worried about them. Just that simple. Not that there will be a doctoral test to enter heaven, but that reward may be lost needlessly.

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blitzkreig
June 22nd, 2005, 02:45 PM
If you want to really see what Calvinists believe then go to Evangelical Outreach and read how John Calvin murdered over 56 people in his day because they did not believe his doctrine. Where does one come up with such stuff ... ? :rofl

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blitzkreig
June 22nd, 2005, 03:09 PM
We simply obey because we are saved.....not to be saved. :nod


From the book “The Unsearchable Riches of Christ” by J.C O’Hair

Believers are reconciled to God by the death of Christ. They have received
“reconciliation” by Christ. At the very moment they are reconciled by Christ they are
baptized into His death, buried with Him and raised to walk in newness of life.
Note, concerning the believer in Romans 6:6 and 8, “our old man was crucified;”
“we be dead with Christ;” “we shall also live with Christ.”

So in Romans, chapter five, Christians have reconciliation, justification and
eternal life by, and through, the Lord Jesus Christ. In Roman’s chapter six, Christians
are new creatures, identified with the Lord Jesus Christ in His death, burial and
resurrection.

Following the proclamation of reconciliation in Romans 5:10 and 11, we read, in
Romans 5:12, “By Adam.” Then in Romans 5:14 to 21, we read “by Adam,” and “by
Christ.” By Adam “sin,” “condemnation,” “alienation,” “death.” By Christ “righteousness,”
“justification,” “grace,” “eternal life.”

We shall consider these contrasts presently. But now let us note how “reconciliation,”
“the new creation” and “identification” are linked together in the fifth
chapter of II Corinthians. Note in Romans 5:14, “we thus judge, that if One died for all,
then all have died.” Believers have died with Christ.

Then note Romans 5:17 to 19:

“THEREFORE IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE; OLD
THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW. AND
ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, WHO HATH RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF BY JESUS
CHRIST, AND HATH GIVEN TO US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION; TO WIT,
THAT GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, NOT
IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM; AND HATH COMMITTED UNTO US
THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION.”

The new creature in Christ Jesus is dead: “How shall we that are dead to sin, live
any longer therein?” “For He that is dead is freed from sin.” Romans 6:2 and 7 “For ye
are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Colossians 3:3. “Wherefore if ye be
dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are
ye subject to ordinances?” “Dead with Christ”—“Dead unto sin”—“Crucified unto the
law”—Galatians 2:20. “Crucified unto the world.” Galatians 6:14.



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blitzkreig
June 22nd, 2005, 03:10 PM
And from the book “The Truth About Truth” by Robert Hanna

"Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under
grace" (Rom. 6:14) "[Christ] His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree,
that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24). "Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3). "There is therefore now
no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1). Such is our great
and priceless possession under the dispensation of the grace of God. As the
beloved old hymn declares, "Jesus paid it all!"

Thus we are free from the PENALTY of sin. But we are not free from the
TEMPTATION of sin. "What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law,
but under grace? God forbid" (Rom. 6:15). "...Seeing that ye have put off the old
man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge
after the image of Him that created him" (Col. 3:9, 10).

"If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION: old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new." But the new creation must co-exist with the old
as long as we remain in this present world, "...Until the redemption of the
purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:14). "For ye are dead,
and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory" (Col. 3:3, 4). Until that great day
comes, we are bound by our own spiritual determination to five pleasing unto God
as becomes the new man.

We have assurance never enjoyed by any previous dispensation. We are the
finished product of Christ's completed work. Our position is firmly established and
our destination confirmed. We anticipate and expect the fulfilment of eternal joy
and perfection in glory. "We ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). But while we wait, we
are admonished to "Be renewed in the spirit of your mind... neither give place to
the devil" (Eph. 4:23, 27).

Timothy
June 22nd, 2005, 03:36 PM
So why do Calvinists get hostile or consider a person who claims to be Arminian not to be saved? Why do Calvinists want to stamp out Arminianism? Is it because Calvinists like their “security in sin Gospel?” Arminians simply hold to a holiness theolgy that believes Christ died for all, not just the elect as Calvinist claim. Arminians state a Christian has to endure to the end of their life living in full devotion to Jesus Christ to claim their reward of eternal salvation. Why are Calvinists so abrasive to this doctrine?

Not to throw a monkey wrench you way, though I am a sincere advocate of eternal security, I am definitely neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I don't believe in predestination, and I believe in the provision for unlmited atonement, though obviously, the application is limited.