She wisdom was with Him when He created it all

[hannahrachel]

http://bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp
Hi I am Hannah Rachel I was born a Jewish person(now Christian) both parents still are, I just finished reading a scripture in gensis1 verse 2: And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then in proverbs it says in verse3:19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth. Also in proverbs1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. Two more verses, then I would like to get your opinions on who is She(noticed in Bible the word Wisdom is frequently capitilized). Here are the others that stand out, but a lot of proverbs is about her. One scripture is proverbs8:22, and the others are proverbs3:15-20. I have just always wondered is She the third member of the Holy Trinity? If you read the description of the Holy Spirit is seems to fill in a lot of blanks as it does not sound like a mans qualities, sounds like a woman. If you know hebrew the difference between male and female read like male is bar and female is bas, could maybe, just maybe someone misheard, and continued on as a Him, in the beginning of Genisis it says let us make them in our image, I don't see an all male planet, do you?
PS I am not a feminist, I don't agree with their agenda, these are just my own observations. And I just finished reading a scripture from the above thread that said all things that had been hidden would be brought into the light in the last days! So who is Wisdom and I think we all need some! :)

[Becky]

Welcome to Rapture Ready. What version of the Bible are you using?

Genesis 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

No mention of "she". :noidea

[abkn]

Welcome to Rapture Ready. What version of the Bible are you using?

Genesis 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

No mention of "she". :noidea


I hope it's not one of the gender "neutral" ones. What a trap for new Christians to fall into.

[Devoted Servant]

Welcome to Rapture Ready. What version of the Bible are you using?

Genesis 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

No mention of "she". :noidea

It looks like Darby - with a few differences :confused

[VirtualPurpose]

There is no doubt that Wisdom in Proverbs is personified as a female. It also says that Wisdom will guide your steps. I could take that to mean that Wisdom is the Holy Spirit and that it is feminin. I have no qualms with that.

[Darfius]

Here's a good article about Jesus being the 'Wisdom of God'.
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html

An excerpt:

"In order to support the traditional Christian view of the relationship of Jesus to the Father, we must understand the background for certain claims about the nature and identity of Jesus in the New Testament. Our general argument may be outlined as follows:

Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father. Just as our own words and thoughts come from us and cannot be separated from us, so it is that Jesus cannot be completely separate from the Father. But there is more to this explanation, related to the distinction between functional subordination and ontological equality. We speak of Christ as the "Word" of God, God's "speech" in living form. In Hebrew and Ancient Near Eastern thought, words were not merely sounds, or letters on a page; words were things that "had an independent existence and which actually did things." Throughout the Old Testament and in the Jewish intertestamental Wisdom literature, the power of God's spoken word is emphasized (Ps. 33:6, 107:20; Is. 55:11; Jer. 23:29; 2 Esd. 6:38; Wisdom 9:1)."

[Patty T]

Welcome sister :wave

There is an on-line bible with concordance that you can search the meaning in the original langauge.

For example, I just searched "wisdom" and upon quick checking found two different Hebrew words.

I don't believe the "she" that referes to wisdom is the Holy Spirit in anyway. We know from scripture there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I'm not well-versed (by any stretch :lol) in Hebrew and Greek, but know there is something about the "gender" of a word that others have talked about. I believe if the triune God-head is any gender, they would all be male.

Here's the link for the on-line bible:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/


Enjoy!!!

Patty

[Hootmon]

Im thinking that the 'gender' of the words may be female, but an actual 'woman' isnt indicated.

Proverbs 8 IS an interesting read though...

[IC333]

This is from the councellors edition of my KJV Bible. I'm not familiar with this topic personally but hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in. :):



The essence of the Book of Proverbs is the teaching of moral and ethical principles. The peculiarity of this book is that it is largely given over to teaching by contrasts.

In the first section, chapters 1-9, there is a contrast between good and evil. The good in this section is denominated by several words--wisdom, instruction, understanding, justice, judgment, equity, knowledge, discretion, learning, counsels--but especially wisdom, which occurs seventeen times in this portion and twenty-two times in the rest of the book. What amounts to a text for the book is the well-known statement of 1:7, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." This statement reappears verbatim in the alphabetical Psalm 111:10, and in almost identical form as the climax of chapter 28 of Job.

The personification of wisdom as a woman is first seen in Proverbs 3:15. Actually, 3:15-18 the pronouns referring to wisdom could be translated "it" as well as "she," but the personification is accepted because of later references. Proverbs 7:4 opens the way for the personification. "Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister." Only in Proverbs and only in this first part is wisdom thus personified.

Since "wisdom" in Hebrew is a feminine noun, it therefore is naturally and readily personified as a woman. More important, the author here is contrasting "wisdom," the virtuous woman, with the harlot, the strange woman. And just as wisdom stands for all virtue, so probably the strange woman typifies and includes all sin.

The contrast is a studied and artistic one. Wisdom cries in the streets (8:3), "Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither" (9:4). In contrast, the foolish woman, who invites to stolen waters and whose guests are in the depths of hell (9:17,18), issues the identical invitation, "whoso is simple, let him turn in hither" (9:16). Wisdom calls the simple to forsake sin; the harlot calls him to its indulgence.

Wisdom as here used is a moral quality. It should be observed that this is a special usage. In most of the Old Testament, wisdom is mere skill or sagacity. Even in Ecclesiastes, where wisdom is also emphasized, it is merely human intelligence and therefore is included with folly as vanity (Eccl. 2:12-15). Only in Job 28 and in certain Psalms (37:30; 51:6; 91:12: 111:10) is the Proverbs concept of wisdom noticeable. Even the wisdom for which Solomon was famed in the historical books is not exactly this wisdom. He was famous for his skill in natural science (1 Ki. 4:33) and jurisprudence (1 Ki. 3:16-28) and for his high intelligence (1 Ki. 10:1-9). Proverbs adds to the concept of mental acumen the moral rectitude that alone makes intelligence worth while.

[hannahrachel]

It looks like Darby - with a few differences :confused
I just figured the spirit of God was the holy spirit, that is why I mentioned that first verse about the spirit of the Lord was resting upon the earth, as the matter of fact the spirit of the Lord is still about the earth, and will remain as such until the Lords appearance and then the spirit of the earth will not still cover the earth. If you go into the 234 times wisdom is mentioned in the bible, she is always the helper, conselor and all of the descriptions that match John's description of the Holy Spirit (very feminine qualitys) would you at least agree of that. And Paul warned us all about fighting over doctrine. I totally respect your ideas, I just threw one of mine out there! I hope to see you soon as the days grow near in heaven and I know the Lord will set us all straight, thanks be to God! May you and yours be blessed and thank you for your response.

[hannahrachel]

Sorry forgot I read the King James Version of the Bible.

[hannahrachel]

Welcome sister :wave

There is an on-line bible with concordance that you can search the meaning in the original langauge.

For example, I just searched "wisdom" and upon quick checking found two different Hebrew words.

I don't believe the "she" that referes to wisdom is the Holy Spirit in anyway. We know from scripture there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I'm not well-versed (by any stretch :lol) in Hebrew and Greek, but know there is something about the "gender" of a word that others have talked about. I believe if the triune God-head is any gender, they would all be male.

Here's the link for the on-line bible:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/


Enjoy!!!

Patty
Dearest Patty,
Why would in genisis say "let us make them in our image, both
male and female" if the triune spirit was all male why are there women in the world? I do wonder if the difference between the Lord saying bas or bar may have been heard incorrectly? They are pretty close in sound, I just have an active imagination possibly. You could if you want read Pro. 4:7-9 and pro. 4,5. and especially prov. 4:18. I am far from even thinking I am a know it all. It just always made me wonder why there are women in the world if God made us all in His image why aren't we all men? I really do not like to have opposition to an opinion after all it is just my thought not the worlds view.

[Hootmon]

Who says the 'image' is 'physical'? God is spirit...

Besides... Woman was created to 'complete' Man. Together we are 'one flesh'

[My Abba's Child]

Could it be that the author simply used personification to describe wisdom as 'she'?

In His love,

[hannahrachel]

Im thinking that the 'gender' of the words may be female, but an actual 'woman' isnt indicated.

Proverbs 8 IS an interesting read though...

Hi Hootmon,
It's kinda funny I see your pic and if you didn't have a man's facial hair we kinda look similar, I have long curly blonde hair too. But of course i'm a girl, I guess my unusual imagination sometimes makes me think too hard on an idea, but I really believe if we are made in Gods image why are we women here?
All of the quotes you wrote I totally agree with! I do know without God there would be no science and without science we couldn't explain God, even Einstien and Hawkings have said in biographys I have read they knew there just had to be a higher
power for all of the universe to work, I was brought up by an athiest father and a mom that said the Bible was a nice fairytale. How I came to leave the synogue and end up in church only God knows, I sure wasn't taught any of it growing up in a totally Jewish family! I give Jesus all my praise and thanks for finding this one lost sheep. Gods blessings to you hootmon. I hope to see all of these people I've met in heaven real real soon! See you then! :)

[hannahrachel]

Could it be that the author simply used personification to describe wisdom as 'she'?

In His love,
Why then did God say "Let us make them in our image both male and female." Why are women here if Wisdom is not a she or the Holy Spirit who is very feminine in description. It possibly could have been misunderstood by mens ears the difference of the Lord saying He would not leave us alone but send the Holy Spirit to teach and comfort us. The difference in hebrew is either bas for girl or bar for boy. I am a girl with a yiddish middle name, Fievel, yes as in the movie, it is a boys name, but I am not, does that mean I am both or neither. If you read prov. 3:4-20 maybe you will understand my desire to understand why she wisdom calls from the rooftops to get our attention. I love prov. 4:8 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, and happy are all who retain her. Number 19 really will get you to thinking: The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; also referred to in Psalms in 104:24, and if your not busy you could read prov. 4:5-9, hope those verses explain my fascination about Her Wisdom. Thanks and many blessings and may we all get to see each other soon! Blessings to you and yours, Hannah.

[hannahrachel]

Here's a good article about Jesus being the 'Wisdom of God'.
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html

An excerpt:

"In order to support the traditional Christian view of the relationship of Jesus to the Father, we must understand the background for certain claims about the nature and identity of Jesus in the New Testament. Our general argument may be outlined as follows:

Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father. Just as our own words and thoughts come from us and cannot be separated from us, so it is that Jesus cannot be completely separate from the Father. But there is more to this explanation, related to the distinction between functional subordination and ontological equality. We speak of Christ as the "Word" of God, God's "speech" in living form. In Hebrew and Ancient Near Eastern thought, words were not merely sounds, or letters on a page; words were things that "had an independent existence and which actually did things." Throughout the Old Testament and in the Jewish intertestamental Wisdom literature, the power of God's spoken word is emphasized (Ps. 33:6, 107:20; Is. 55:11; Jer. 23:29; 2 Esd. 6:38; Wisdom 9:1)."

Hi Darfius,
I do know that hebrew and yiddish words and letters hold meanings, I have an entirely jewish family, except in my family we believe Christ died for our sins and we love Him with all of our hearts. If I were to just tell you the meaning of just my name which my mom picked out for me, sometimes it scares me, here tell me what you think about being named Channah Rachel Feivel bas Lab a Kohain (both parents are royalty and had to have a special ceremoney to get married, much to my fathers dismay she had to wear a diamond wedding band not a plain one, which is bizzard to me any way,
okay back to meanings my name means:Grace/ewe/and bright one daughter of the lion of the royal line of Aron the priesthood. My english name is Andrea Phyllis which means in english woman/branch. So how would you like to try living up to that! Trust me I am not bragging it kinda just makes me wonder why I am here and why God chose me out of my family to be His? I did almost die more times than I can count and spiritual battles I have fought in the New Age era of my life, boy was that a life lesson! I ended up possessed with demons because I was channeling them, played with ouija boards and crystals and tarrot cards and yet Jesus stepped in and pulled me out of that, I will forever be grateful for whoever prayed me out of that mess! Thank you for your understanding of how hebrew works, there are also codes the hebrews used in a number system worked into their lettering, this part of hebrew iis hard to understand but I have been working on it. Many blessings for you and yours and thanks again for your thoughts! Hannah

[My Abba's Child]

Hi Hootmon,
It's kinda funny I see your pic and if you didn't have a man's facial hair we kinda look similar, I have long curly blonde hair too. But of course i'm a girl, I guess my unusual imagination sometimes makes me think too hard on an idea, but I really believe if we are made in Gods image why are we women here?
All of the quotes you wrote I totally agree with! I do know without God there would be no science and without science we couldn't explain God, even Einstien and Hawkings have said in biographys I have read they knew there just had to be a higher
power for all of the universe to work, I was brought up by an athiest father and a mom that said the Bible was a nice fairytale. How I came to leave the synogue and end up in church only God knows, I sure wasn't taught any of it growing up in a totally Jewish family! I give Jesus all my praise and thanks for finding this one lost sheep. Gods blessings to you hootmon. I hope to see all of these people I've met in heaven real real soon! See you then! :)

I'd love to hear the testimony of how you came to a saving faith in Christ Jesus! PM me if you'd like. :):

In His love,

[hannahrachel]

There is no doubt that Wisdom in Proverbs is personified as a female. It also says that Wisdom will guide your steps. I could take that to mean that Wisdom is the Holy Spirit and that it is feminin. I have no qualms with that.
Hi,
Thanks for your input, I guess my imagination has got everyone else that read the thread thinking I am a nut case. I did not enjoy reading things like that. Mostly Paul told us not to worry about arguing over scriptures, everything Christ told us was so we easily could find the Father by faith and love alone. I don't understand why every church makes it so hard to get to heaven. Jesus already gave us the map! Many blessings to you and yours,
Hannah

[hannahrachel]

It looks like Darby - with a few differences :confused
Hi Elizabeth,
Who is Darby? What did it say, I am just using the KJV of the bible. Sincerely Hannah

[My Abba's Child]

Why then did God say "Let us make them in our image both male and female." Why are women here if Wisdom is not a she or the Holy Spirit who is very feminine in description. It possibly could have been misunderstood by mens ears the difference of the Lord saying He would not leave us alone but send the Holy Spirit to teach and comfort us. The difference in hebrew is either bas for girl or bar for boy. I am a girl with a yiddish middle name, Fievel, yes as in the movie, it is a boys name, but I am not, does that mean I am both or neither. If you read prov. 3:4-20 maybe you will understand my desire to understand why she wisdom calls from the rooftops to get our attention. I love prov. 4:8 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, and happy are all who retain her. Number 19 really will get you to thinking: The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; also referred to in Psalms in 104:24, and if your not busy you could read prov. 4:5-9, hope those verses explain my fascination about Her Wisdom. Thanks and many blessings and may we all get to see each other soon! Blessings to you and yours, Hannah.

It's obvious that being made in God's image is not a physical rendering-- 1. we'd all look the same, 2. God is spirit. :): Perhaps it means that we are made in God's image in that there are 3 parts to me, yet I am one. I have a body, I have a spirit and I have a soul. In the Genesis account, I believe God created women because "it is not good for man to be alone." Adam went through and named all the animals, seeing them two by two for procreation, but found none that would suit him as a mate. I believe God had Adam do this just so he'd see the need and desire for a partner, a help-mate, and that the other animals required an equal but opposite for procreation and happy life.

As for the Holy Spirit's gender... well, I really don't find it important... but, not knocking you for wanting to at least speculate on it. :D: I think that God likes it when we use the imagination He gave us to bring a closer relationship, as long as we don't go overboard with it and make Him into what we want Him to be instead of the other way around. As I view, through my own imagination, I don't think the Holy Spirit has a defined form. Remember in the Genesis account, the Holy Spirit was floating above the waters... I kinda see, in my mind's eye, a mass of light and energy. Remember the Acts account of receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentecost... the Holy Spirit came as the sound of a great wind and appeared as flames above the heads of believers. For me, I can't see the Holy Spirit as having a defined form, and, as such, would be a bit confusing if a gender is imposed. I guess we'll find out when we get to heaven just what the Holy Spirit looks like. :clap The important thing is that the Holy Spirit has indwelt our spirits and brought our souls to life!

In His love,

[alabama35565]

Proverbs 1:20-22

Wisdom calls aloud outside ; She raises her voice in the open squares.
She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words;
How long you simple ones. will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge .

KJV

[Moony2ns]

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ John 14:26

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. ~ John 15:26

:welcome

[Devoted Servant]

Hi Elizabeth,
Who is Darby? What did it say, I am just using the KJV of the bible. Sincerely Hannah

I went to Bible.com - which was in your opening post and it had the "Darby"
translation listed....I figured maybe that's where you got the text you quoted. Moony asked what Bible you were reading. ;):

[hannahrachel]

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ John 14:26

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. ~ John 15:26

:welcome
Hi,
So no one ever misquoted a word, was it bas or bar, we would have to see the original hand written text to know this, and I will not argue because our opinions are different because Paul said this was useless to do. We are just here to Love God and each other you know the Gospel (the only Good News!) Differences of opinion I don't think mean squat to the Lord, after all He did make us all different, thanks for your response,
Hannah

[Devoted Servant]

Hi,
So no one ever misquoted a word, was it bas or bar, we would have to see the original hand written text to know this, and I will not argue because our opinions are different because Paul said this was useless to do. We are just here to Love God and each other you know the Gospel (the only Good News!) Differences of opinion I don't think mean squat to the Lord, after all He did make us all different, thanks for your response,
Hannah

The text Moony quoted:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ John 14:26

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. ~ John 15:26 is from the King James Bible - isn't that what you said you read? Wherein lies your difference of opinion?

[Moony2ns]

I'm not sure why you are assuming we are arguing with you. You asked a question and we are responding. :noidea

Also, the word "he" in the scriptures I posted come from the New Testament, which is written in Greek and the word being "ekeinos."

Paul indeed cautioned us about division, but he also said:

"And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. ~ Romans 15:14"

[hannahrachel]

The text Moony quoted:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ John 14:26

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. ~ John 15:26 is from the King James Bible - isn't that what you said you read? Wherein lies your difference of opinion?
Hi again,
Just can you think of the word comforter and really think when you need earthly comfort where would you rather go, to mom or dad? Our opinions are only gender of the holy spirit, but why back in Genesis does it say "let us make them in our image", why is this not a place of all men? And then I need the answer to who is "us" God and Jesus, once again no woman, why could the Holy Spirit not be the comforter and be female? Oh, I forgot it says he in the bible, and I know every word is devine revelation, how do you know this little change in knowledge is not from God himself, after all in the end days it does say mysteries that have been hidden would be brought into the light! Maybe this is one of the mysteries of how God made us look like them both male and female. Just food for thought.

[watchman]

One must be careful when discussing this issue as it can be misunderstood, and error or worse false teachings can result.

The ideas and concepts are difficult to make completely understood in a forum such as this, but for the sake of one's desire to understand, I am going to put forth a bit.

This issue has caused a great deal of trouble for the Jewish people in our history as idolatry in various forms, from Lilith, Asherah, Ishtar, Anath and others.

Christianity has the whole Virgin Mary issue (which has been done to death)

The disclaimer being said, I will offer a bit of information that may make it easier to understand the ideas, but rest assured this is not anywhere near exhaustive or apologetic in content.

Seat belts everyone...

G-d is separate from His creation.
Man often gets dyslexic, must have something to do with being created in G-d's image.
(Try cutting the back of your own hair while looking in a mirror...)

Oftentimes we try and pin the attributes of creation on G-d rather than understanding that all of creation has at least one of G-d's attributes, and some of creation has more.
Having this understanding then it is easy to see that Woman has attributes of G-d, and we understand that G-d refers to this part of creation "Woman", the same for all other things.

There is an attribute of G-d in a created life form we refer to as "dog" all that a dog is, the traits, that which are understood by all to be specific to dogs are attributes of G-d but to say that G-d has the attributes of a dog is absolutely wrong.

By understanding the order then one can see that there is no conflict with the feminine attributes, although G-d does not have those feminine attributes and more that a dogs. For the same reason G-d does not have the attributes of Man, yet man has the attributes of G-d. We use the masculine to talk about and to G-d for He set that standard in order that we could identify with Him.

Man was created in the image of G-d, and in man's whole form woman is part of that whole. G-d saw that man would not do well alone and created woman from man in order to be unique in the relationship. With Adam and Eve this relationship was much greater than with men and woman today, but the relationship between men and woman is still unique and cannot be stronger than that between two men or two women.

But what man perceives to be the "feminine" side of G-d exists, it is that we must perceive it as such in order to make it "fit" in our limited brain.

None of this contradicts anything that is written, it is just that because of perversions in both the physical and spiritual planes, we tend to reject the notions.

The feminine exists because G-d made it so. It is the extension of Himself that we closely relate to as mercy, grace, nurture etc.

The very names of G-d declare this feminine expression by man.
The name El Shaddai, which is very strongly ingrained in the Jewish mind, is a term that means in a loose form "The many breasted one" An attribute that deals with all our needs.

The Shekinia, is that which is closely associated with the visible divine manifestation and thought by many to be the Holy Spirit.

[watchman]

I forgot to add that in Hebrew nouns are masculine or feminine.
Body parts for instance are usually masculine if singular, and feminine in multiples.

i.e. tongue, nose, face (masculine ) or eyes, ears (feminine).

However it is not meaning that they are male or female.

The problem is in English language we ascribe male or female gender whenever we use masculine or feminine. For instance we call ships, cars, planes etc "she" and except for "father time", I cannot think of any nouns or pronouns in the masculine.

This makes it difficult to understand masculine or feminine gender as it applies to words without meaning male or female unless one studies language, and understands foreign language construction.

[hannahrachel]

Hi,
So no one ever misquoted a word, was it bas or bar, we would have to see the original hand written text to know this, and I will not argue because our opinions are different because Paul said this was useless to do. We are just here to Love God and each other you know the Gospel (the only Good News!) Differences of opinion I don't think mean squat to the Lord, after all He did make us all different, thanks for your response,
Hannah

Hi,
Do you know when RR moves a thread where does is go?

[Moony2ns]

If a thread gets moved, there is a "redirect" link given in the forum it was originally posted in, and when you click on it, it takes you to the forum to which it was moved. This one in particular was moved to Christian Chat as it had more to do with doctrinal discussions than End Times. It happens a lot, so don't think you did anything wrong. Just routine. :nod

[Chris4Christ]

There is no doubt that Wisdom in Proverbs is personified as a female. It also says that Wisdom will guide your steps. I could take that to mean that Wisdom is the Holy Spirit and that it is feminin. I have no qualms with that.

Except that you have to make leaps in order to do it. You first must assume that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs is actually the Holy Spirit, and then you have to assume that the feminine gender of the word "wisdom" must necessarily translate over to the Holy Spirit.

Why not just look in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is specifically referred to as "he"? That's a pretty definitive and direct answer to the gender question.

:):

[Patty T]

Dearest Patty,
Why would in genisis say "let us make them in our image, both
male and female" if the triune spirit was all male why are there women in the world? I do wonder if the difference between the Lord saying bas or bar may have been heard incorrectly? They are pretty close in sound, I just have an active imagination possibly. You could if you want read Pro. 4:7-9 and pro. 4,5. and especially prov. 4:18. I am far from even thinking I am a know it all. It just always made me wonder why there are women in the world if God made us all in His image why aren't we all men? I really do not like to have opposition to an opinion after all it is just my thought not the worlds view.


Hi hannahrachel :wave

I believe the "let Us make man in Our image" refers to the three-part nature of God - spirit, soul and body. We are created in that image. We too are a tri-part being. We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.

I believe the spirit represents the Holy Spirit of God,
I believe the soul represents God the Father,
I believe the body represents God the Son, Jesus, who became flesh and dwelt among men.

God created woman to be a helpmate to man. Together we "complete" each other. I also believe God created woman so His command to go forth and "multiply" could be completed.

Patty

[antsinmypants]

Watchman :thumb

Chris, actually- though the Greek uses a Masculine gender for the HS, the Hebrew always uses a feminine. :): No leaps to find it, and it is known that Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs is G-dly wisdom. :):

:wave

[hannahrachel]

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ~ John 14:26

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. ~ John 15:26

:welcome
Hi,
I just wanted to mention that the Holy Spirit is only referred to as he in John's gospel. I wanted to add in that have we all forgotten all things are possible to G-d, and why would in Luke 12:10 say the only unforgiveable sin is to those who blasphemes the Holy Spirit(sounds like the Holy Spirit is cherished in heaven by both the Father and the Son) could there just possibly be a relationship that we as humans cannot comprehend? I did pray to the Lord for wisdom and that is what put me on this path of searching the scriptures for wisdom. Also in each gospel it does talk about the truth being brought into the light in the end days, can we all be in prayer for the Lords return and stay focused on heaven, the jews prayed(400+ yrs.) for a deliverer to free them from egypt, why are Christians not prayer the Lords Prayer daily which asks for His will to be done on earth as in heaven. We should all be centered on looking up and we have had more than 2000 years to just ask G-d for His Sons return, do we as humans pray for Jesus to come or are we too busy with our earthly problems to remember what we were told to pray Luke11:2-4 " The Lords Prayer ". I pray this everyday in my greatest hope that He will come and His will will be done on earth as it is in heaven!
And of course wether or not the Holy Spirit is male or female, the spirit is described here to let you know why the Holy Spirit is here for you. Here are the descriptions of the Holy Spirit she/he always testifys about Jesus, she/he convicts us of our wrong doing, how we are to love, how we will be judged here, how we will have comfort, teachings, and be loved. Now I am praying to be totally filled with the Holy Spirit so that I may finish my life on earth with love, grace and mercy to all those in the world. Blessings and Grace to all, with all of the love in my heart Hannah.

[antsinmypants]

...why would in Luke 12:10 say the only unforgiveable sin is to those who blasphemes the Holy Spirit(sounds like the Holy Spirit is cherished in heaven by both the Father and the Son) could there just possibly be a relationship that we as humans cannot comprehend?

From my understanding, The reason this cannot be forgiven, is that it is one of those sins that puts limitation on the movement of YHVH. If His Ruach doesn't move on the earth, or is not present- we are limiting Him, or saying that He ceases from being (in essence).

So to blaspheme the Ruach (as many have done), we are in essence denying the whole of the G-dhead... which is unforgiveable.

But, I think to totally understand that Hebraicly, one would have to go back and read some of the rabbinic writings that predate Y'shua- which speak of this.


why are Christians not prayer the Lords Prayer daily which asks for His will to be done on earth as in heaven.

The prayer is an example, not something to be literally prayed. :wave


And of course wether or not the Holy Spirit is male or female...

I don't think it's a literal male or female. However, there are what we as humans qualify as "Feminine qualities" because that is how we understand it..

The Ruach is just that, Breath- The Spirit of YHVH. That is what we need to focus on, not whether it is male or female.

In languages where we have gender neutrals (English) this causes confusion and error on many levels, and has actually had people draw themselves into cults because they want to take descriptions of the personage of G-d as total male total female, part male/part female..

It's not that way with YHVH. He's something we as humans are not.

Male and female was made for this earth, and the ways we understand Him is according to what our limited understanding allows. We should stick to what is given us and don't force Human things on what YHVH doesn't display of Himself as human. (aka, don't put male/female on Him, other than with Y'shua which He was physically male on earth)

I don't think this is something we can fully grasp while limited by earth, therefore we shouldn't concentrate on it and waste energy with it.

[hannahrachel]

I forgot to add that in Hebrew nouns are masculine or feminine.
Body parts for instance are usually masculine if singular, and feminine in multiples.

i.e. tongue, nose, face (masculine ) or eyes, ears (feminine).

However it is not meaning that they are male or female.

The problem is in English language we ascribe male or female gender whenever we use masculine or feminine. For instance we call ships, cars, planes etc "she" and except for "father time", I cannot think of any nouns or pronouns in the masculine.

This makes it difficult to understand masculine or feminine gender as it applies to words without meaning male or female unless one studies language, and understands foreign language construction.

I do admit I do know about genders of some languages but I do not know everything, but I do know I shall see Him in the clouds! :) And that is really the only thing that matters that we all live and breath Christ to all that see us, we are not supposed to keep things of G-d hidden, correct? I felt the pushing of the Lord to write about wisdom, which is something I did not want to do, mostly same reason as everyone else, I did not want to say something wrong, I did not want to be laughed at for my thought! I felt like if I did not write about wisdom I would have been not doing the job the Lord put before me, why me?, only G-d knows, I guess I'll find out when I get there, right? Many blessings for you and yours and keep up the faith! Hannah.

[hannahrachel]

If a thread gets moved, there is a "redirect" link given in the forum it was originally posted in, and when you click on it, it takes you to the forum to which it was moved. This one in particular was moved to Christian Chat as it had more to do with doctrinal discussions than End Times. It happens a lot, so don't think you did anything wrong. Just routine. :nod
Thanks for the information, I am just starting to understand how RR board works, thanks again@ :)

[hannahrachel]

Hi hannahrachel :wave

I believe the "let Us make man in Our image" refers to the three-part nature of God - spirit, soul and body. We are created in that image. We too are a tri-part being. We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.

I believe the spirit represents the Holy Spirit of God,
I believe the soul represents God the Father,
I believe the body represents God the Son, Jesus, who became flesh and dwelt among men.

God created woman to be a helpmate to man. Together we "complete" each other. I also believe God created woman so His command to go forth and "multiply" could be completed.

Patty

Hi Patty,
Yes people multiplying is important, and yup it does take two to tango and multiply, and we should both help each other, right?
I believe there is only one G-d "the Father" and Jesus is His Son, and I believe if it takes two to make one, I do in my own mind have to believe God said let us make them in our image, so I have been studing and thought of my own accord that the Holy Spirit must have been a woman, to have created the Son. I have been told G-d is spirit, well inside our earthsuits so are we, and the Lord himself told us we would recongnize each other, and He also said if you look upon me so shall you see the Father, I assume G-d has a face that He was wearing in His earthsuit while here, so I assume He looks like His Son or vice a versa(?) If G-d is just a giant energy ball I don't think He would have sent Jesus here to show Himself, so we might have a clue of a reconizeable
person to see in heaven. Here is some food for thought, in psalms in 104:24 it reads "O Lord how manifold are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all. The earth is full of Your possessions- Now of course as you stated what you believe(and I think that is awesome to admit your beliefs as most people like myself are afraid they might be ridiculed for their thoughts. Jesus did say in the end days mysteries of G-d would be opened for all to understand, I think this is part of the beginning of the end, as we are all seeing hidden mysteries unfolding before our very eyes! To you with much love and grace and blessings! Hannah

[hannahrachel]

Except that you have to make leaps in order to do it. You first must assume that the Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs is actually the Holy Spirit, and then you have to assume that the feminine gender of the word "wisdom" must necessarily translate over to the Holy Spirit.

Why not just look in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is specifically referred to as "he"? That's a pretty definitive and direct answer to the gender question.

:):

Hi,
Yes, I have read the two lines in John that refer to the Holy Spirit as "he" but that is the only place in the bible you will find that! Thanks and blessings to you and yours, Hannah

[hannahrachel]

Watchman :thumb

Chris, actually- though the Greek uses a Masculine gender for the HS, the Hebrew always uses a feminine. :): No leaps to find it, and it is known that Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs is G-dly wisdom. :):

:wave
You think you have ants in your pants, I have been waiting for 30 years for Jesus, who showed me the end days first after meeting Him(I had never read the new testament so I really had no idea of what was about to happen) and since I was a jew I was lost for awhile due to parents objections of religious beliefs(even though neither have beliefs), I was not supposed to love Jesus or have anything to do with Him. But even parents can't get the Jesus out of you, LOL! I have given up believing these people who raised me are my parents, so as Christ adopted me into His family I chose Him as my brother, the Father as mine(and of course everyones) and I chose the Holy Spirit to be my wisdom(or comfortor or mother because I needed one)!! None of the triune spirit has ever let me down, even during some of my hardest firey trials. As I got older I just asked the Lord to carry me because after all this time I am sooooo beyond tired of this worlds sicknesses, including all of the international horrors going on around the world, all I ever think about is going HOME to be with the real family we can't see! I try very hard to remember this world is temporary and when G-d comes He will fix it all, for now I cry everyday for the world that is going to hell in a handbag faster than I could have ever imagined. I am with you on "How about now Lord?" I ask Him this almost hourly I think LOL! :) To you with hope, grace, and hardest of all patience(definately not my strong suit)! Hannah

[hannahrachel]

Watchman :thumb

Chris, actually- though the Greek uses a Masculine gender for the HS, the Hebrew always uses a feminine. :): No leaps to find it, and it is known that Wisdom spoken of in Proverbs is G-dly wisdom. :):

:wave
You think you have ants in your pants, I have been waiting for 30 years for Jesus, who showed me the end days first after meeting Him(I had never read the new testament so I really had no idea of what was about to happen) and since I was a jew I was lost for awhile due to parents objections of religious beliefs(even though neither have beliefs), I was not supposed to love Jesus or have anything to do with Him. But even parents can't get the Jesus out of you, LOL! I have given up believing these people who raised me are my parents, so as Christ adopted me into His family I chose Him as my brother, the Father as mine(and of course everyones) and I chose the Holy Spirit to be my wisdom(or comfortor or mother because I needed one)!! None of the triune spirit has ever let me down, even during some of my hardest firey trials. As I got older I just asked the Lord to carry me because after all this time I am sooooo beyond tired of this worlds sicknesses, including all of the international horrors going on around the world, all I ever think about is going HOME to be with the real family we can't see! I try very hard to remember this world is temporary and when G-d comes He will fix it all, for now I cry everyday for the world that is going to hell in a handbag faster than I could have ever imagined. I am with you on "How about now Lord?" I ask Him this almost hourly I think LOL! :) To you with hope, grace, and hardest of all patience(definately not my strong suit)! Hannah

[Joshua's Gen]

I think watchman and antsy nailed it. :noidea

[Timothy]

I believe the "let Us make man in Our image" refers to the three-part nature of God - spirit, soul and body. We are created in that image. We too are a tri-part being. We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.

I believe the spirit represents the Holy Spirit of God,
I believe the soul represents God the Father,
I believe the body represents God the Son, Jesus, who became flesh and dwelt among men.

God created woman to be a helpmate to man. Together we "complete" each other. I also believe God created woman so His command to go forth and "multiply" could be completed.

:thumb

Another way of outlining it:

SPIRIT
"Breath of Life"
God-conscious
Spirit of unsaved man: Dead

SOUL
"Living soul"
Self-conscious
Soul of unsaved man: Dark

BODY
"Dust of the ground"
World-conscious
Body of unsaved man: Depraved

[Joshua's Gen]

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

just noted these, not sure if they've been posted.

but yeah, watchman/ants nailed it far as I can see. :noidea

[hannahrachel]

I think watchman and antsy nailed it. :noidea
Hi,
What sword do I have out, I thought I was doing pretty good at backing questions and answers with scripture?

[Joshua's Gen]

sword?

[blitzkreig]

Hi Hootmon,
It's kinda funny I see your pic and if you didn't have a man's facial hair we kinda look similar, I have long curly blonde hair too. But of course i'm a girl, ... :lol

.

[Joshua's Gen]

Hi,
What sword do I have out, I thought I was doing pretty good at backing questions and answers with scripture?

oh nevermind, you're lookin at my signature dear. I jsut figured that out. :heh

nevermind it. that goes everywhere I post. it wasn't towards you. :B:

[blitzkreig]

oh nevermind, you're lookin at my signature dear. I jsut figured that out. :heh

nevermind it. that goes everywhere I post. it wasn't towards you. :B:Put that thang away or you might put somebody's eye out ... :fencing

.

[Servant]

Hi Patty,
Yes people multiplying is important, and yup it does take two to tango and multiply, and we should both help each other, right?
I believe there is only one G-d "the Father" and Jesus is His Son, and I believe if it takes two to make one, I do in my own mind have to believe God said let us make them in our image, so I have been studing and thought of my own accord that the Holy Spirit must have been a woman, to have created the Son.


Hi Hannah! :wave


I just wanted to address this point. Jesus was most definitely NOT created. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[DeeLeeKay]

Hannah,

While it is true that the attributes of the Holy Spirit maybe feminine in nature, I do not think we can absolutely put a feminine gender on it. To be a women it would need a body, and God is one. If we have seen Yeshua(Jesus-in the flesh was male) then we have seen the father.

In Isaiah we see this.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We can see that this child(Jesus-Yeshua) is to be called counsellor. While I am not a hebrew scholar by any stretch of the imagination I think it is clear that to apply feminine pronouns to the Holy Spirit is a reach. To subscribe "wisdom" a name for the Holy Spirit is limiting the Holy Spirit- he is so much more. Wisdom, comfort, compaignionship-etc.....


It seems to me a reach and making more of the trinity then is necessary.

This is not debating, just rendering my opinion. It is said of God's people- If you have two Jewish people together you get three opinions-same as with Christians.

Sometimes discussing things puts them into perspective.

[claireanna]

I wonder what God thinks when we sit and debate such things......( not meaning that to anyone, I wonder that about many things. My favorite picture of Jesus is the one called Jesus laughing)
I guess to me it does not matter eather way. I have never thought about it as male or female. Only that it just is what it is The Holy spirit

[hannahrachel]

oh nevermind, you're lookin at my signature dear. I jsut figured that out. :heh

nevermind it. that goes everywhere I post. it wasn't towards you. :B:
Hi,
I am so glad not to see written in bold yellow letters DIE, I thought maybe I had done something hiddeous to you and others. After all we are all here to uplift each other. I hope that if you just read about wisdom in proverbs and any others that are reading you will find it is most uplifting, whether or not the Holy Spirit is male or female does not really matter in the great scheme of things. It was just a guess a silly obersevation on my part. If it just is my vivid imagination that G-d gave me then I am sorry to have bothered anyone. Hannah

[DJHere]

Hi again,
Just can you think of the word comforter and really think when you need earthly comfort where would you rather go, to mom or dad? Our opinions are only gender of the holy spirit, but why back in Genesis does it say "let us make them in our image", why is this not a place of all men? And then I need the answer to who is "us" God and Jesus, once again no woman, why could the Holy Spirit not be the comforter and be female? Oh, I forgot it says he in the bible, and I know every word is devine revelation, how do you know this little change in knowledge is not from God himself, after all in the end days it does say mysteries that have been hidden would be brought into the light!

Because Romans teaches us:

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

God the Father is called father not mother and this scripture specifically notes the Holy Spirit is His spirit as well as Jesus' Spirit. This is one of the scripture passages that teach the existence of the trinity.

Also John 4 teaches us:

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

[Joshua's Gen]

Hi,
I am so glad not to see written in bold yellow letters DIE, I thought maybe I had done something hiddeous to you and others. After all we are all here to uplift each other. I hope that if you just read about wisdom in proverbs and any others that are reading you will find it is most uplifting, whether or not the Holy Spirit is male or female does not really matter in the great scheme of things. It was just a guess a silly obersevation on my part. If it just is my vivid imagination that G-d gave me then I am sorry to have bothered anyone. Hannah

Yeah, that was poking in fun to another incident elsewhere on the board.

It was my signature. Therefore it wasn't directed towards this thread. :):

[hannahrachel]

I wonder what God thinks when we sit and debate such things......( not meaning that to anyone, I wonder that about many things. My favorite picture of Jesus is the one called Jesus laughing)
I guess to me it does not matter eather way. I have never thought about it as male or female. Only that it just is what it is The Holy spirit
Hi,
Actually He probably has a lot of good laughs! :)
With hope and grace,
Hannah

[hannahrachel]

Because Romans teaches us:

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

God the Father is called father not mother and this scripture specifically notes the Holy Spirit is His spirit as well as Jesus' Spirit. This is one of the scripture passages that teach the existence of the trinity.

Also John 4 teaches us:

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Hi,
You are absolutely right, the only thing we should be thinking about are heavenly things and to be pleasing to G-d! :)

[Servant]

Hi Hannah! :wave


I just wanted to address this point. Jesus was most definitely NOT created. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[antsinmypants]

I believe there is only one G-d "the Father" and Jesus is His Son, and I believe if it takes two to make one, I do in my own mind have to believe God said let us make them in our image, so I have been studing and thought of my own accord that the Holy Spirit must have been a woman, to have created the Son.

Somehow, I did miss this and was wondering why Servant said what she did above me...
Now I see it.

Hannah,

When it says the Seed of Woman (Mary is being spoken of) it means her ovum is used so that Y'shua can be born. Somehow from there, G-d puts his Seed in her to cause the birth of Y'shua. However, He was never Created, He Always was.

He Was in Genesis 1:1.

"Beresheit Bara El-him Et..."

Who is the Aleph Tav? Messiah.

[watchman]

Somehow, I did miss this and was wondering why Servant said what she did above me...
Now I see it.

Hannah,

When it says the Seed of Woman (Mary is being spoken of) it means her ovum is used so that Y'shua can be born. Somehow from there, G-d puts his Seed in her to cause the birth of Y'shua. However, He was never Created, He Always was.

He Was in Genesis 1:1.

"Beresheit Bara El-him Et..."

Who is the Aleph Tav? Messiah.


And perhaps this is why I get the heebejeebies when I think of the technique of cloning. The taking of an ovum and replacing the genetic material and in evect bringing foth life without the intertwining of man and womans DNA, but the single DNA of one person. It is too close to what may have been the result of the quickening in Mary when the Spirit of G-d rested upon her.

In my opinion we are too close to returning to the garden and I sure would not wich to see those with the flaming swords who gard it...

[antsinmypants]

In my opinion we are too close to returning to the garden and I sure would not wich to see those with the flaming swords who gard it...

I'm in agreement. I've often wondered about some End Time prophesy if it directly involves YHVH walking on earth, or his calling of cherubim to destroy it... wherein it says He will search out the homes for the evil ones (like we do for chometz on passover) and where it says He will destroy and renew the earth...

[hannahrachel]

And perhaps this is why I get the heebejeebies when I think of the technique of cloning. The taking of an ovum and replacing the genetic material and in evect bringing foth life without the intertwining of man and womans DNA, but the single DNA of one person. It is too close to what may have been the result of the quickening in Mary when the Spirit of G-d rested upon her.

In my opinion we are too close to returning to the garden and I sure would not wich to see those with the flaming swords who gard it...

Hi antinmypants,
I think you will see why I had this thought about Wisdom, read prov.9 Which I will put out there maybe in it own in its own message, I'll write out prov.9:1-3 Wisom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars:2;She has slaughtered her meat, She has mixed her wine, She has also furnished her table and 3;She has sent out her maidens. Now see who is She??? I am still with you and stand by what I wrote because of 234 different scriptures with her mentioned as the helper and counselor. I am not ashamed of my belief and I did not write the message if not prompted to, I always ask the Lord before I make a move, because I like Wisdom. This is something a watched in a video another christian gave me to watch, the man in the video was talking about the blood of Christ being analized, I think from the shroud(?) and there were not any male chromozones in Jesus' blood, so if the Holy Spirit came to seed Mary, He should have been a woman, but as we know He definately is not and neither is Abba. Thanks for a least a person that has gone past judging and read, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that! Hannahrachel

[antsinmypants]

Hi antinmypants,
I think you will see why I had this thought about Wisdom, read prov.9

I'll check it out.

This is something a watched in a video another christian gave me to watch, the man in the video was talking about the blood of Christ being analized, I think from the shroud(?) and there were not any male chromozones in Jesus' blood, so if the Holy Spirit came to seed Mary, He should have been a woman, but as we know He definately is not and neither is Abba. Thanks for a least a person that has gone past judging and read, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that! Hannahrachel


Ok, Just want to let you know something, and I know this will probably offend a whole bunch of people; but coming from where I come from- I must say this or I'd be in trouble for not saying it.

The Roman Catholic Church is *well known* for making their own historical artifacts to back up their doctrine from obscure passages of scripture that they typically pull out of context.

The shroud is an obvious fake for ANYONE who knows anything about ancient Hebrew burial traditions and the Middle-Ages burial procedures.

In the ancient traditions, people were wrapped like mummies and kept that way and spices put upon them. The same cloths used, would be the same kind as used at birth, Swaddling clothes-- old strips of cloth from the High Preist's garments.

Shrouds were used *Exclusively* In the middle ages and in Europe, Except where people of Europe traveled elsewhere and buried their own. The tradition of "shrouding" was not carried over to the Hebrew communities of Europe or Russia, but their traditions were kept.

In ancient times, after a space of a year, people would come and collect the bones and put them in ossuaries, and then encase these little "coffins" and put the name of the deceased upon them, and usually a year or something else indicating who they are, for future generations.



Now, that being said, The place in which the shroud was found is "shrouded" with mystery- and it cannot be verified it even came from Israel.

There are certain particles missing that would be evident even on the cloth, indicating it was in Jerusalem, and in the time frame they say it was. Not to mention, if it was put over a body wrapped, the face and body imprint would not be possible.

However, it is perfectly possible that one of the masters of art of the time, could and WOULD make such an article for the church... and even from blood. It isn't uncommon.

The shroud cannot be the definite true article, or it would have all the circumstantial evidences of pollen from trees and plants, and even spices, and MALE blood upon it.

Y'shua was fully human and divine, and would have had male chromosomes.

[hannahrachel]

I'll check it out.




Ok, Just want to let you know something, and I know this will probably offend a whole bunch of people; but coming from where I come from- I must say this or I'd be in trouble for not saying it.

The Roman Catholic Church is *well known* for making their own historical artifacts to back up their doctrine from obscure passages of scripture that they typically pull out of context.

The shroud is an obvious fake for ANYONE who knows anything about ancient Hebrew burial traditions and the Middle-Ages burial procedures.

In the ancient traditions, people were wrapped like mummies and kept that way and spices put upon them. The same cloths used, would be the same kind as used at birth, Swaddling clothes-- old strips of cloth from the High Preist's garments.

Shrouds were used *Exclusively* In the middle ages and in Europe, Except where people of Europe traveled elsewhere and buried their own. The tradition of "shrouding" was not carried over to the Hebrew communities of Europe or Russia, but their traditions were kept.

In ancient times, after a space of a year, people would come and collect the bones and put them in ossuaries, and then encase these little "coffins" and put the name of the deceased upon them, and usually a year or something else indicating who they are, for future generations.



Now, that being said, The place in which the shroud was found is "shrouded" with mystery- and it cannot be verified it even came from Israel.

There are certain particles missing that would be evident even on the cloth, indicating it was in Jerusalem, and in the time frame they say it was. Not to mention, if it was put over a body wrapped, the face and body imprint would not be possible.

However, it is perfectly possible that one of the masters of art of the time, could and WOULD make such an article for the church... and even from blood. It isn't uncommon.

The shroud cannot be the definite true article, or it would have all the circumstantial evidences of pollen from trees and plants, and even spices, and MALE blood upon it.

Y'shua was fully human and divine, and would have had male chromosomes.

Hi again,
I hope I didn't upset you I was just telling you about a video a 90 year old fellow christian gave me to watch. I even think it might have been taken from the discovery channel. And yea, you probably upset some people about the shroud, but until we get to heaven none of us will probably ever know for sure.
They have taken recently a seed from the shroud named methusila(spelled wrong I'm sure) and it is growing, I wonder if this will help scientist with some sort of dating(I don't know and don't think its really important). We all of us do need to remember that the Lord told us in the last days mysteries of G-d would be brought into the light! So maybe we are just now starting to learn some new things, it does say in acts 2:17 that: And it shall come to pass in the last days, says G-d, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh:Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams, and on My men servants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days:And they shall phophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above, And signs in the earth beneath:Blood and fire and vapors of smoke(sounds a lot like the yellowstone cauldera). The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and notiable day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
I truly believe we are just starting to learn new things about G-d. Here's one for you: "Where did Cain find a wife?"
Like I said, maybe we are being taught new things about G-d because people today have way mucho access to knowledge, of course only G-dly wisdom can give you revelations into a new mystery of G-d, that do not oppose scripture. Sincerely Hannah
PS Have you ever asked the Lord for a new revelation of Him, if not you should try sometime, you might get a dream, a prophecy, or maybe a vision, that would be fun wouldn't it?
What's the harm, give Him a chance to prove that there are mysteries that need to be screamed from the roof tops! :) Have a happy happy day,
hannah

[Servant]

hannahrachel, if I may ask, why are you looking so hard for 'hidden mystery' 'new revelation' etc.? I can go back and quote all of the times you refer to it but it is getting late and I'm rather tired so I won't for now...


You cannot force God's timing nor create new revelation out of feelings and thoughts.


God speaks to all that are His children. If He has something new to reveal to us I am confident that He would be able to do so. There is great treasure in seeking out the mysteries of the bible and there is great danger in trying to create mystery revealed and new revelation out of nothing but our own thoughts. The heart is deceptive above all things...

[hannahrachel]

hannahrachel, if I may ask, why are you looking so hard for 'hidden mystery' 'new revelation' etc.? I can go back and quote all of the times you refer to it but it is getting late and I'm rather tired so I won't for now...


You cannot force God's timing nor create new revelation out of feelings and thoughts.


God speaks to all that are His children. If He has something new to reveal to us I am confident that He would be able to do so. There is great treasure in seeking out the mysteries of the bible and there is great danger in trying to create mystery revealed and new revelation out of nothing but our own thoughts. The heart is deceptive above all things...

Hi,
Sorry just my thing, I love a mystery and finding little bits of golden relevation within the bible. The Holy Spirit/wisdom is exactly what you say is my thought. But, I sir, may I ask why you don't believe in the last days hidden things would be brought into the light because G-d wants it so, even though the bible says this would happen, included in the bible are listed the gifts of the spirit they include prophecies, dreams and visions. How do you know right now these things aren't happening? Did the Lord tell you that specifically no one would or could discern something new from the bible.
A thought gets stuck in your head, you ask the Lord why is that thought in your mind and you know it is Him prompting you to search the scriptures to know more of Him, as He is the word, and if within your thought you find there are scriptures that do speak to you about your prophecy, dream or vision, and then after two or three more witnesses collaborating the idea. Then we all research the bible and books that back up scriptures just to make sure that this is biblical. How do you back up a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge that you have received from the Lord?
Have you ever prayed for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to make a decision in this world? Did you get an answer? Jesus said "We would have gifts of the spirit", I promise it won't hurt you if you ask the Lord for a word of wisdom about anything you want to know, through wisdom you will find your answers to my fasination in finding nuggets of gold in bible text. Things that pull me, first straight to the things of the Lord, or things I have questioned get pulled together, or answer a question, or just questions about heaven and all within G-ds realm. Jesus said "If your child asks you for a fish would we as parents give the child a rock, and how much more the Heavenly Father wants to give us". The heavenly Father, Son and Holy Spirit want us to chat with Him, that is why He made us and gave us free will to choose to love or not His Son, the bible, how about the Holy Spirit. Here is a little joke: I gotta think the Holy Spirit must be feminine because being a woman I know how it feels when your family never listens to you or barely acknowledges that you exsist.
If I was the Holy Spirit, I would always be wondering why believers never mention me, even hardly in a prayer. Don't you think the gifts the Holy Spirit have a purpose and yet even in church (i have been to many) you hardly ever hear about the Holy Spirit and the gifts of G-d, if there are no gifts, why does the word even bother to mention them. My first gift to you from one human to another is "christian love" brother.
I just had a thought(you know like "I had a dream") and put it out there, does it really matter that much to you, that you are dwelling on the subject, maybe the Lord wants you to know there are gifts to be had, maybe He has you thinking about this subject because He has a gift or revelation for you, JUST ASK, the Lord will bless you I am sure of that. I hope I have not offended you, that is definately not my purpose in life, to make others mad, I would hate to think you are upset even with just me. My purpose is just to be the person G-d made me with all of my faults and failures, I am still one of the apples of His eyes, He and I have an all day conversation, prayer and praise time, yup, just me and Him. I am His friend and He is mine and I love His Son and the Holy Spirit and make special times to be learning and spending time with the trinity. MY own prayer today would be for more people to receive the gifts that G-d has to offer us, they are free!!:) Why are there gifts, I am guessing just because He loves us, how amazing is that, G-d loves us all. In Christs love, hannah
PS I think its not the heart that is deceived but the mind, do you think for a second that lucifer wants anyone to know anything new about him for even a half a second, his job is get us away from G-d, not to help us understand the Lord better.
Please forgive me if I have in anyway offended you. May I ask you one more question, you can PM me if you care to, are you a pastor or an elder in a church and which church you go to, just curious. See that's why I am always searching the scriptures, curiousity is my middle name! And yes I know the old saying curiosity killed the cat, I guess that's me! LOL Seriously, have a wonderful day, hannah

[Servant]

Hi,
Sorry just my thing, I love a mystery and finding little bits of golden relevation within the bible. The Holy Spirit/wisdom is exactly what you say is my thought. But, I sir, may I ask why you don't believe in the last days hidden things would be brought into the light because G-d wants it so, even though the bible says this would happen, included in the bible are listed the gifts of the spirit they include prophecies, dreams and visions. How do you know right now these things aren't happening? Did the Lord tell you that specifically no one would or could discern something new from the bible.

To start with, I am not a sir, I am a ma'am. I believe the bible when it says that in the last days old men would dream dreams and young men would have visions. However, this does not speak to some 'new' revelation of God.


A thought gets stuck in your head, you ask the Lord why is that thought in your mind and you know it is Him prompting you to search the scriptures to know more of Him, as He is the word, and if within your thought you find there are scriptures that do speak to you about your prophecy, dream or vision, and then after two or three more witnesses collaborating the idea. Then we all research the bible and books that back up scriptures just to make sure that this is biblical. How do you back up a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge that you have received from the Lord?

And in this case? Where your 'new' wisdom was not backed up by scripture? Where it was not verified by others? What then? Other than claiming that those that disagree are picking on you...


Have you ever prayed for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to make a decision in this world? Did you get an answer? Jesus said "We would have gifts of the spirit", I promise it won't hurt you if you ask the Lord for a word of wisdom about anything you want to know, through wisdom you will find your answers to my fasination in finding nuggets of gold in bible text. Things that pull me, first straight to the things of the Lord, or things I have questioned get pulled together, or answer a question, or just questions about heaven and all within G-ds realm. Jesus said "If your child asks you for a fish would we as parents give the child a rock, and how much more the Heavenly Father wants to give us". The heavenly Father, Son and Holy Spirit want us to chat with Him, that is why He made us and gave us free will to choose to love or not His Son, the bible, how about the Holy Spirit. Here is a little joke: I gotta think the Holy Spirit must be feminine because being a woman I know how it feels when your family never listens to you or barely acknowledges that you exsist.
If I was the Holy Spirit, I would always be wondering why believers never mention me, even hardly in a prayer. Don't you think the gifts the Holy Spirit have a purpose and yet even in church (i have been to many) you hardly ever hear about the Holy Spirit and the gifts of G-d, if there are no gifts, why does the word even bother to mention them. My first gift to you from one human to another is "christian love" brother.

It has been explained quite exhaustively that God (of course) has feminine qualities but HE is not female. The Holy Spirit, being part of the Godhead, is included in that. God is not female. Why have you now brought up the gifts of the spirit? What does that have to do with this debate/discussion?

I just had a thought(you know like "I had a dream") and put it out there, does it really matter that much to you, that you are dwelling on the subject, maybe the Lord wants you to know there are gifts to be had, maybe He has you thinking about this subject because He has a gift or revelation for you, JUST ASK, the Lord will bless you I am sure of that. I hope I have not offended you, that is definately not my purpose in life, to make others mad, I would hate to think you are upset even with just me. My purpose is just to be the person G-d made me with all of my faults and failures, I am still one of the apples of His eyes, He and I have an all day conversation, prayer and praise time, yup, just me and Him. I am His friend and He is mine and I love His Son and the Holy Spirit and make special times to be learning and spending time with the trinity. MY own prayer today would be for more people to receive the gifts that G-d has to offer us, they are free!!:) Why are there gifts, I am guessing just because He loves us, how amazing is that, G-d loves us all. In Christs love, hannah Quite the contrary. I am not mad or upset in the least. Just very concerned over someone that I see heading down a dangerous path, looking for hidden mystery. You know, that was the genesis of the whole gnostic movement? Right? Searching out 'hidden' mystery where there is none to be had is a very slippery slope. :tsk Why the need to brag on long prayer time? Does that make you 'holier' than the next guy or gal? Does that give you more of a direct line to God's newest, greatest 'hidden' mysteries? :confused


PS I think its not the heart that is deceived but the mind, do you think for a second that lucifer wants anyone to know anything new about him for even a half a second, his job is get us away from G-d, not to help us understand the Lord better.
Please forgive me if I have in anyway offended you. May I ask you one more question, you can PM me if you care to, are you a pastor or an elder in a church and which church you go to, just curious. See that's why I am always searching the scriptures, curiousity is my middle name! And yes I know the old saying curiosity killed the cat, I guess that's me! LOL Seriously, have a wonderful day, hannah Jeremiah 17:9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? No, it is the heart. What has satan to do with this conversation hannahrachel? You're kind of all over the place with your arguments. :confused

No I am not a pastor nor an elder, as I explained earlier I am not a man at all. I am a wife and mother and volunteer my time here.


Really hannah, I think you need to quit trying to confine God and the Son and the Holy Spirit in human terms. They are God. They are much more than we humans can qualify or describe. They are definitely not female. If you love to search the bible then you should probably already know that God is not ever refered to as she.

[hannahrachel]

To start with, I am not a sir, I am a ma'am. I believe the bible when it says that in the last days old men would dream dreams and young men would have visions. However, this does not speak to some 'new' revelation of God.



And in this case? Where your 'new' wisdom was not backed up by scripture? Where it was not verified by others? What then? Other than claiming that those that disagree are picking on you...



It has been explained quite exhaustively that God (of course) has feminine qualities but HE is not female. The Holy Spirit, being part of the Godhead, is included in that. God is not female. Why have you now brought up the gifts of the spirit? What does that have to do with this debate/discussion?
Quite the contrary. I am not mad or upset in the least. Just very concerned over someone that I see heading down a dangerous path, looking for hidden mystery. You know, that was the genesis of the whole gnostic movement? Right? Searching out 'hidden' mystery where there is none to be had is a very slippery slope. :tsk Why the need to brag on long prayer time? Does that make you 'holier' than the next guy or gal? Does that give you more of a direct line to God's newest, greatest 'hidden' mysteries? :confused

No, it is the heart. What has satan to do with this conversation hannahrachel? You're kind of all over the place with your arguments. :confused

No I am not a pastor nor an elder, as I explained earlier I am not a man at all. I am a wife and mother and volunteer my time here.


Really hannah, I think you need to quit trying to confine God and the Son and the Holy Spirit in human terms. They are God. They are much more than we humans can qualify or describe. They are definitely not female. If you love to search the bible then you should probably already know that God is not ever refered to as she.

No, G-d the father is never referred to as she, but wisdom is, you could read prov.4 to find out why she is important and a gift of wisdom is from the Holy Spirit. May the spirit fill us with wisdom, knowledge, and the love of G-d. I am trying not to make this an arguement or to make myself look good, I know I am a sinful worm only acceptable to G-d because of the blood of Christ and my belief in Him as my Jewish Messiah. Last thing I will say is G-d created us in their image so He has to have a face, I know they are three in one and are spirit, I also know I am wearing an earthsuit here on earth and I am also spirit inside and I know in heaven I won't be either male or female, but I will be recognizable(Jesus said we would recognized each other in heaven)as a woman, since that is also what I am. And I am sorry the way you write you just sounded a lot like the male ex-pastor of the church I used to go to. I mentioned all day prayer(conversations) with the Lord because I do not go to church because everyone fights over scriptures where ever you go!!! I just find it easier to talk to Him and read the bible and preach to the youth of His ressurection. Wait didn't the Lord speak to Paul or have I lost my mind in believing the word? Which says: there are gifts of the spirit, one of which is a word of wisdom. That is why I mentioned that. Now I have said my peace, I am appologizing to you if I sounded haughty, not my intent, just the only way I know to keep in touch with He who is and yes I always read the bible before I make a move to make any statement that doesn't exalt the Lord. sincerely hannah

[DeeLeeKay]

Hannah,

You know Paul has told us we could understand all mysteries, but without love we are nothing.


1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Wisdom is not all it is cracked up to be. For here we see that the wisdom of God is not the same as the wisdom of the world. Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

[DeeLeeKay]

.Paul or have I lost my mind in believing the word? Which says: there are gifts of the spirit, one of which is a word of wisdom.

Isn't it "word of knowledge"?

Is there a difference?

[hannahrachel]

Hannah,

You know Paul has told us we could understand all mysteries, but without love we are nothing.


1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Wisdom is not all it is cracked up to be. For here we see that the wisdom of God is not the same as the wisdom of the world. Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

Thank G-d for the incredible sacrific He for all us, otherwise we would all be in hell. I am a christian jew and I do know that earthly wisdom is and it does nothing for the soul. I stick to the bible and prayer and I have been praying for Israel everyday as I have since 1973 when I first was saved literally from death! Praise the Lord and may all of Israel learn He is G-d and Savior we were promised in the old testament. Thanks for your input, I do appreciate everything everyone has written. It shows me even more clearly that each christian is part of Christs body no matter what scriptural differences we have. If we believe Jesus died for our sins and is the messiah, and that we are adopted into the family thorough repentance and His blood.
What we think in our own genius here isn't going to matter at all in the end, as long as we stay with attached to G-d(body,mind and spirit, and the do the best we can to love and care for one another, we shall see each other, hopefully real soon! Sincerely hannah

[hannahrachel]

Isn't it "word of knowledge"?

Is there a difference?
There is apparently a difference Paul wrote in 1Cor. 12:8-11, both of these gifts are mentioned, plus many more parting gifts! LOL :) Like, yes in deed, we get to see Him!
Eph,. 1:16-23 might be helpful. Also definately need read 1 corinthians 12:1-31 and same chapter 1Cor.13:1-13 and lastly
same chapter 1Cor.14:1-40, in my bible were talking like four pages that explain all of the gifts of the spirit. LOVE is always first in my life, but there are an amazing number of gifts we are given to use here on this earth to encourage and help others. Both gifts you mentioned are listed separately so I guess G-d knows the difference between wisdom and knowledge. Knowledge is never mentioned as he or her, only wisdom is given a female promoun. Please don't tell me that I should stop dwelling on wisdom and its meaning to us, because the bottom line is we both belong to Christ and through His love I am able to love you and visa versa. With many blessings for you and yours, hannah

[DeeLeeKay]

What kind of wisdom though? Our wisdom is Messiah's life, death and resurrection. No other wisdom is needed.

[DeeLeeKay]

I am not sure I understand where you are coming from. Are we given the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Wisdom?

Is the "word of wisdom" given by the spirit of "of wisdom"?

It is getting complicated.

[BeachBeliever]

HannahRachel:

I have been reading (with keen interest) your threads here (both this one about the gender of Wisdom, and the one referencing the New Age past you have overcome).

First, I want to praise our Father G-d and Messiah Yeshua ben YHVH for you - and that you have the testimony of having been saved out of the New Age Movement, its Deception and Lies.

Second, I want to say how wonderful it is to see the excitement, energy and passion that so clearly jumps off the page in your posts.

From what little you have said about your background and upbringing - you have obviously overcome MUCH in your life to come to a Saving Grace in Yeshua (atheistic parents, being told the Bible is a 'fairy tale', becoming steeped in the occult and New Age Gnostic Wisdom and Ideals) - and your testimony can be such a strong source of Glory for the Father.

However, the Holy Spirit compelled me to post here - to bring something to your attention - so that you could continue to grow and learn in Yeshua and remain on the Narrow Path - through the Strait Gate - building your foundation on the Word (Yeshua) alone.

It may be a resonance left over from your New Age past (dust that should have been shaken off your feet after you left - and now must be done to be free and move on), or perhaps be misdirected passion - or a bit of each - but you are treading on DANGEROUS ground (especially for someone who came OUT of the very same dangers) by seeking after "new wisdom", "new revelations", Gnosis, "Hidden Manna/Hidden Meaning/Hidden Wisdom", 'feminizing' YHVH/Yeshua/Ruach HaKodesh, idolizing Wisdom or any of the properties of G-d, seeking the Spirit - when YHVH clearly tells us to seek HIM alone and the ONLY path to HIM is Yeshua - NOT the Spirit - Holy or otherwise, and anything else that consists of looking for what is "Hidden".

Searching to uncover what is "Hidden" is called "Gnosis" or "Gnostic Wisdom" and it is JUST as New Age, Evil and OCCULT as Witchcraft. It IS a Doctrine of Demons --- and an 'old' one at that.

Dearest HannahRachel .... don't allow the Enemy to pull you RIGHT BACK into the SAME Pit from which Yeshua just freed you. It just has a new 'label' - but it's the SAME bottomless PIT.

If you desire Wisdom, then that isn't evil or wrong - in and of itself. Solomon prayed for Wisdom and YHWH was pleased .... but the Wisdom came from YHWH - not 'hidden' things. YHWH gave us His Word - His LIVING WORD. We have the Bible (the WRITTEN WORD) and Yeshua, the LIVING WORD came and ILLUMINATED His Word and gave us His Holy Spirit to CONTINUE that process by RESIDING WITHIN US and ENABLING us to UNDERSTAND His Word when we read it.

We do not need ANYthing more --- the Lord gives to every man, woman and child EQUALLY. To believe anything less is to believe that YHWH is a "Respecter of Persons" (which the Word says He is NOT). To seek "Hidden Wisdom", "new revelations" or "Gnosis" is to believe that YHVH gives MORE to some than He does to others - or that some are more "special" than others - when the Truth is that YHVH has given His complete Revelation to ALL by giving us His Son, our Kinsman-Redeemer, our Messiah, the LIVING WORD - Yeshua ben YHVH.

PLEASE be careful, sweet HannahRachel ..... the enemy seeks to devour and kill - and to drag you right back from whence you came .... you are treading on DANGEROUS ground.

In the Love of Messiah Yeshua,
Beach

[tay]

[QUOTE=hannahrachel]No, G-d the father is never referred to as she, but wisdom is, you could read prov.4 to find out why she is important and a gift of wisdom is from the Holy Spirit.

Hi Hannah,

I am not following your logic here. Even if wisdom was feminine how does that make the giver female? If I were to give you a dress, it is a feminine gift, but nonetheless, I am still a male who gave it to you. Others have provided scripture to back up the fact that God is always referred to as "He" or "Father". Jesus was in the form of a "man" while on the earth. The Holy Spirit is referred to as "He" by John. No offense, but you are simply not backing anything up with scripture besides Proverbs, which is completely unrelated to whether or not the Holy Spirit is a man or woman.

Also, not to harp on this point, but Jesus was not created and did not come from the union of the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus has always been. He is God.

[hannahrachel]

HannahRachel:

I have been reading (with keen interest) your threads here (both this one about the gender of Wisdom, and the one referencing the New Age past you have overcome).

First, I want to praise our Father G-d and Messiah Yeshua ben YHVH for you - and that you have the testimony of having been saved out of the New Age Movement, its Deception and Lies.

Second, I want to say how wonderful it is to see the excitement, energy and passion that so clearly jumps off the page in your posts.

From what little you have said about your background and upbringing - you have obviously overcome MUCH in your life to come to a Saving Grace in Yeshua (atheistic parents, being told the Bible is a 'fairy tale', becoming steeped in the occult and New Age Gnostic Wisdom and Ideals) - and your testimony can be such a strong source of Glory for the Father.

However, the Holy Spirit compelled me to post here - to bring something to your attention - so that you could continue to grow and learn in Yeshua and remain on the Narrow Path - through the Strait Gate - building your foundation on the Word (Yeshua) alone.

It may be a resonance left over from your New Age past (dust that should have been shaken off your feet after you left - and now must be done to be free and move on), or perhaps be misdirected passion - or a bit of each - but you are treading on DANGEROUS ground (especially for someone who came OUT of the very same dangers) by seeking after "new wisdom", "new revelations", Gnosis, "Hidden Manna/Hidden Meaning/Hidden Wisdom", 'feminizing' YHVH/Yeshua/Ruach HaKodesh, idolizing Wisdom or any of the properties of G-d, seeking the Spirit - when YHVH clearly tells us to seek HIM alone and the ONLY path to HIM is Yeshua - NOT the Spirit - Holy or otherwise, and anything else that consists of looking for what is "Hidden".

Searching to uncover what is "Hidden" is called "Gnosis" or "Gnostic Wisdom" and it is JUST as New Age, Evil and OCCULT as Witchcraft. It IS a Doctrine of Demons --- and an 'old' one at that.

Dearest HannahRachel .... don't allow the Enemy to pull you RIGHT BACK into the SAME Pit from which Yeshua just freed you. It just has a new 'label' - but it's the SAME bottomless PIT.

If you desire Wisdom, then that isn't evil or wrong - in and of itself. Solomon prayed for Wisdom and YHWH was pleased .... but the Wisdom came from YHWH - not 'hidden' things. YHWH gave us His Word - His LIVING WORD. We have the Bible (the WRITTEN WORD) and Yeshua, the LIVING WORD came and ILLUMINATED His Word and gave us His Holy Spirit to CONTINUE that process by RESIDING WITHIN US and ENABLING us to UNDERSTAND His Word when we read it.

We do not need ANYthing more --- the Lord gives to every man, woman and child EQUALLY. To believe anything less is to believe that YHWH is a "Respecter of Persons" (which the Word says He is NOT). To seek "Hidden Wisdom", "new revelations" or "Gnosis" is to believe that YHVH gives MORE to some than He does to others - or that some are more "special" than others - when the Truth is that YHVH has given His complete Revelation to ALL by giving us His Son, our Kinsman-Redeemer, our Messiah, the LIVING WORD - Yeshua ben YHVH.

PLEASE be careful, sweet HannahRachel ..... the enemy seeks to devour and kill - and to drag you right back from whence you came .... you are treading on DANGEROUS ground.

In the Love of Messiah Yeshua,
Beach


Hi there,
Yes I do love the Lord our G-d with every fiber of my being. I am seeking wisdom from the Lord (no more , no less). In 1cor.vrses 12:7-11 and 1cor. 13:1:13 they all speak of love and hope and joy and all the good gifts G-d wants ua to have Paul says to us pray for wisdom, pray for knowledge and to get the gift of prophecy, he says this is 1cor. 14:1-5(all through same spirit), and I am just pulling three of the gifts out of the many. These are not hidden or secret as you will see in reading. I don't understand it all or I would be G-d. I believe Jesus is the truth, the life, the resurrection, the savior, and the only thing that does really matter.

I wouldn't mind a gift, wouldn't you, and most of all from the heavenly Father?
Paul says do not listen to any other doctrine except for the ressurected Christ, I am doing my best and always remembering the heart of the bible.

I may ask the public out there, do you know about spiritual gifts, given by the same spirit of G-d written in the bible that Paul asks us to pray for.

Here is a big one, I DO NOT WORSHIP WISDOM!!!! I just always, since the first time I read the bible I wondered why wisdom even had a pronoun, since it is a noun, and why not find he wisdom, instead of find she wisdom for in her is found the fear of the Lord. It was just a questions, not a debate. I would praise the Lord for even one drop of wisdom. I do already fear the Lord for I know what is capable of as a jew, our people have been through hell and back. That's it, that is still about it, I have had many thought and responses, and I do appriecate all the knowledge I can get but everyone, please don't worry I have just prayed for some wisdom, that I may have the best wisdom and knowledge of Him that I can get, this letter has brought me the prayers. Now I am praying for the gift of prophecy for Paul wanted us to also.

Thanks for the prayers everyone,
hannahrachel

[hannahrachel]

I am not sure I understand where you are coming from. Are we given the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Wisdom?

Is the "word of wisdom" given by the spirit of "of wisdom"?

It is getting complicated.

Hi DeeLeeKay,
We are all baptised into one spirit (Holy Spirit) to fill our souls, so no, not talking about that. The spirit of wisdom is a spiritual gift of G-d, which there are many gifts from the Lord if you read. Did you read the the scriptures in 1 cor. If you did, did you understand what Paul was saying? If you don't know about sprititual gifts you should probably ask your pastor. As I do know there are demoninations that don't believe in spiritual gifts.

In bible study we had over the years spent many hours talking about the gifts of G-d. I guess I have assumed too much when I just figured everyone has been taught the same things. Paul though does say praying for spirtual gifts from G-d is as necessary as breathing.

To all, the only important thing about the whole bible, which is mostly prophecy about the Lord with a little history thrown in. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO ACCEPT THE LORD AS YOUR SAVIOR AND TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and that is the good news, WE ARE SAVED BY HIS BLOOD!!! Nothing we can do can change each individuals walk with the Lord, so what is everyones problem, if you have faith and love you have it all. I don't worry about finding hidden manna(rev.2:17) if I find some in the bible, I think upon the heavenly things in the spirit and pray for answers from the Lord. Paul said to pray for the gift of prophecy. And to pray to love as Christ loved. And all of the gifts even grace and mercy are gifts. ( I assume Paul thought these gifts were important enough to write them down) so important their are almost three chapters in 1 cor. to let us know about gifts, they are available through prayer.

I am just one of the Lords many children, we probably are all probably giving G-d a good belly laugh with all of our theories!!!? including mine, I am no different than anybody else. with love, grace, peace and mercy....hannah

[hannahrachel]

HannahRachel:

I have been reading (with keen interest) your threads here (both this one about the gender of Wisdom, and the one referencing the New Age past you have overcome).

First, I want to praise our Father G-d and Messiah Yeshua ben YHVH for you - and that you have the testimony of having been saved out of the New Age Movement, its Deception and Lies.

Second, I want to say how wonderful it is to see the excitement, energy and passion that so clearly jumps off the page in your posts.

From what little you have said about your background and upbringing - you have obviously overcome MUCH in your life to come to a Saving Grace in Yeshua (atheistic parents, being told the Bible is a 'fairy tale', becoming steeped in the occult and New Age Gnostic Wisdom and Ideals) - and your testimony can be such a strong source of Glory for the Father.

However, the Holy Spirit compelled me to post here - to bring something to your attention - so that you could continue to grow and learn in Yeshua and remain on the Narrow Path - through the Strait Gate - building your foundation on the Word (Yeshua) alone.

It may be a resonance left over from your New Age past (dust that should have been shaken off your feet after you left - and now must be done to be free and move on), or perhaps be misdirected passion - or a bit of each - but you are treading on DANGEROUS ground (especially for someone who came OUT of the very same dangers) by seeking after "new wisdom", "new revelations", Gnosis, "Hidden Manna/Hidden Meaning/Hidden Wisdom", 'feminizing' YHVH/Yeshua/Ruach HaKodesh, idolizing Wisdom or any of the properties of G-d, seeking the Spirit - when YHVH clearly tells us to seek HIM alone and the ONLY path to HIM is Yeshua - NOT the Spirit - Holy or otherwise, and anything else that consists of looking for what is "Hidden".

Searching to uncover what is "Hidden" is called "Gnosis" or "Gnostic Wisdom" and it is JUST as New Age, Evil and OCCULT as Witchcraft. It IS a Doctrine of Demons --- and an 'old' one at that.

Dearest HannahRachel .... don't allow the Enemy to pull you RIGHT BACK into the SAME Pit from which Yeshua just freed you. It just has a new 'label' - but it's the SAME bottomless PIT.

If you desire Wisdom, then that isn't evil or wrong - in and of itself. Solomon prayed for Wisdom and YHWH was pleased .... but the Wisdom came from YHWH - not 'hidden' things. YHWH gave us His Word - His LIVING WORD. We have the Bible (the WRITTEN WORD) and Yeshua, the LIVING WORD came and ILLUMINATED His Word and gave us His Holy Spirit to CONTINUE that process by RESIDING WITHIN US and ENABLING us to UNDERSTAND His Word when we read it.

We do not need ANYthing more --- the Lord gives to every man, woman and child EQUALLY. To believe anything less is to believe that YHWH is a "Respecter of Persons" (which the Word says He is NOT). To seek "Hidden Wisdom", "new revelations" or "Gnosis" is to believe that YHVH gives MORE to some than He does to others - or that some are more "special" than others - when the Truth is that YHVH has given His complete Revelation to ALL by giving us His Son, our Kinsman-Redeemer, our Messiah, the LIVING WORD - Yeshua ben YHVH.

PLEASE be careful, sweet HannahRachel ..... the enemy seeks to devour and kill - and to drag you right back from whence you came .... you are treading on DANGEROUS ground.

In the Love of Messiah Yeshua,
Beach


Thank you for your imput, I do understand what you are telling me. I have a one scripture about hidden manna from G-d, rev.2:17. I am not even trying to convince anybody about anything else except to open eyes to the gifts of the spirit written about by Paul in 1cor. Wether there is or isn't a she involved in the trinity doesn't matter one lick.

The only thing that does matter is Christ and the Good News! Pretty much most of my time is spent talking to the Lord, I am lucky enough to have the time to spend with Him. I don't work full time, so I read alot of christian books(I am careful about which ones) and mostly I am always with my nose in the bible. Sometimes to the dismay to my family, I sometimes get the childrens voices yelling at me "Mom, why are you always reading the bible, don't I know it by now?" I just LOL when they ask, I tell them when or if they get older they will understand. Because this world is for a moment, and being in Him is eternal we have been to church and bible studies and as they are now older they are preaching the Gospel, so I hope I have given them a good solid Jesus foundation. He is my foundation and I am still a work in progress, aren't we all?

I once, because of the church I was in, I tried to live by the Law and I was working hard to build my vessel to perfection, when my vessel was done the walls collasped because our church didn't believe in the gift of grace, why I still don't know! When I found the gift of grace, I asked my pastor why we were all spending so much time on deeds and running around in circles(like a new commandment went into place, we were to spend 1 hour a day in prayer or we weren't to be in this pastors church). When I told the pastor the Lord said all of our good deeds were like unto filthy rags to Him, the pastor sent me packing. At that point I decided to just be the best me I could be and let the Lord build my vessel because mine was broken. The Lord even in scriptures says somewhere, that it was His job to perfect us, and when we try ourselves we not only fail, but we when we spend our time watching our own moves is slapping Jesus' sacrifice, making what He did null and void, He died so we could be with the Lord all day and night. Now my spirit is no longer mine but belongs to Christ, I died and was ressurected because of Him, and the rest of my time I will spend eveyday with Him. I thank the Lord with all of my heart for His wonderful gift of grace(bought by His blood).

I pray all should come to know the Lord and accept His freely given gifts. Sincerely Hannah

[DeeLeeKay]

Hannah,

I agree that we are all saved by the blood of the Lamb.
I know all about the gifts of the spirit. The difference here is that you are calling the Holy Spirit - a she as wisdom. There is a difference between wisdom being a gift of the Holy Spirit and wisdom being the Holy Spirit. Can you see the difference?

[hannahrachel]

Hannah,

I agree that we are all saved by the blood of the Lamb.
I know all about the gifts of the spirit. The difference here is that you are calling the Holy Spirit - a she as wisdom. There is a difference between wisdom being a gift of the Holy Spirit and wisdom being the Holy Spirit. Can you see the difference?

Hi,
Yes I can and do, thank you hannah