Should divorced ministers continue to preach?

[cameron222]

This thread is a carry over from another thread on end times chat that morphed into a discussion of Charles Stanley's divorce and whether or not he should continue to preach. I think perhaps its o.k. if his wife was the one who divorced him and if he remains single. He is one of the best teachers in the SBC and knows the Word of God.

I was also interested in the critics of Rick Warren and Bob Schuller weighing in on this and seeing if they had the same zeal for posting scripture concerning a divorced person being a pastor as they were when they were slicing and dicing Rick Warren and Schuller.

Charles Stanley also holds some of the same beliefs as Rick Warren and Schuller and I agree with them for the most part. This is not a bash Dr. Stanley thread. This is a "I agree with him" thread, for the most part, and
Bereans like to check the teachings of preachers and teacher to see if they are accurate.

So lets go.........

[blitzkreig]

I am wondering why he would WANT to preach. Is there no other trade which he could be trained for ... ?

[cameron222]

blitz...he is an excellent "teacher." We have divorced teachers in our church, but I don't believe we would ever call a divorced pastor.

Perhaps a teaching ministry would be better than heading the church.

[bopeep1909]

It all depends on the circumstances. <><

[Indiana Janz]

My dad resigned as pastor of his church after my mom left him. He said he didn't feel he could continue to preach after being divorced, but I think he just needed a break. He worked as a janitor for awhile, got remarried, and then went back to school and became a surgical technician. He's now getting his master's in theology and is considering re-entering the ministry.

[CountryBumpkin]

I have just done a study on 1Timothy 3 where Paul says "husband of one wife". I think that this is hard for us in today's society to grasp, but I get the impression that God means them to be an example to the members of the body of Christ and their children, even if they are the innocent victim in a divorce.
I love Charles Stanley and his ministry but I do feel uncomfortable with the situation. It is all very well to say that 85% of church members voted that he stays but what does God say in His word?
I think that many are divided on this issue, but I feel he should stand down.
We all agree that he is an excellent teacher and maybe he could be more involved in that field.

[liz67_1]

I attended a church where the pastor ran off with a young singer, Left his wife of 18 years :(.... He has since tried many times to restart his ministry to no avail. I believe that is the Lords hand in it not allowing him to grace the pulpit ever again.

Prior to his adulterous ways he was a very blessed preacher , his chruch was growing very fast and he was reaching the lost of the city. Well now he is a contruction worker still married to this woman and since has fathered 2 kids by her.. Its really quite sad..

[Live!]

Maybe Satan worked on his wife until she left him with Satan's express purpose being to ruin his ministry.

Dr. Stanley is awesome. It is hard for me to believe anything else could be true. Although he is just a man, but still.....

I believe, biblically that he should step down if he wanted to remarry. But the verse "husband of one wife" means he shouldn't remarry and should try to reconcile with his wife, right? So why should he step down unless he wanted to remarry?

Any thoughts?

[LeahIA]

I have the utmost respect for Dr. Stanley. As you stated, his wife divorced him and he has not remarried.

[Catwoman]

Continue Dr. Stanley! He's a wonderful Christian pastor with a blessed ministry. I don't think him being divorced should derail his ministry.

[Tominator]

This thread is a carry over from another thread on end times chat that morphed into a discussion of Charles Stanley's divorce and whether or not he should continue to preach. I think perhaps its o.k. if his wife was the one who divorced him and if he remains single. He is one of the best teachers in the SBC and knows the Word of God.

I was also interested in the critics of Rick Warren and Bob Schuller weighing in on this and seeing if they had the same zeal for posting scripture concerning a divorced person being a pastor as they were when they were slicing and dicing Rick Warren and Schuller.

Charles Stanley also holds some of the same beliefs as Rick Warren and Schuller and I agree with them for the most part. This is not a bash Dr. Stanley thread. This is a "I agree with him" thread, for the most part, and
Bereans like to check the teachings of preachers and teacher to see if they are accurate.

So lets go.........


So lets go...? :twitch What are you proposing?

I find your approach offensive and in the spirit of this message that you are trying to pick a fight. :sigh

We continuously ask you questions which you ignore. We repeatedly place scripture before you.

In fact, I will paste my response to you from the other thread...which you ignored.

No man gets a pass.

We could shine the light of truth upon Charles Stanley.
We could weigh his ministry, examining the fruit, the foundation, the message.
We could weigh his role as a leader with the light of 1 Timothy.


Will you accept the light of truth Cameron?

So far, scripture, the direct witness of believers, the overwhelming evidence of rotten fruit, the clear foundation of new age in their messages has had no effect on your consideratin of Warren, Schuler and Hinn.

My heart is telling me this very thread is wrong. Billiefan was sharing with us a great opportunity.

I feel like this has been turned wrongly into an attempt to bait those of us that have shown the light on Warren...and there is already a fabric of gossip set loose.

Open your new thread if you like Cameron. I will bring in any contribution that the Holy Spirit places on my heart.

I pray for Charles Stanley and his family, just as I have prayed for Warren.
I pray for RR-BB that we will be a useful witness to the Glory of God and righteous watchmen for His kingdom.
I pray that I will leave my own agenda and pride behind, because that is a great temptation and a terrible tool of the enemy for strife.

tom

What is your motive? To prove yourself right? :blabla

Or to really get to the truth?

I see no point in taking your bait any longer.

It only legitamizes your unsupportable rants and perpetuates a wrong spirit to cause strife.

[carmen]

I do believe there is restoration and hope in the Lord after divorce, just as with any sin--although whether Stanley actually sinned in this case isn't something I am privy to. Not knowing all the facts of the case, I am surprised that anyone would dare to sit in judgement on it :confused. Of course, I could be biased somewhat, since I find myself in the same position as Charles Stanley.

I will say this....if God doesn't want the man in ministry, He is more than able to remove him from that office. If God chooses not to, I am not sure I want the burden of making that judgement. I personally feel no leading whatsoever from the Holy Spirit against Charles Stanley or his ministry; if anything, I feel FOR him. If that changes, I will follow accordingly. For now, I leave this with God.

[nooneuno]

Is he producing FRUIT? HMM?

I think so......

[HeIsEnough]

Wow, didn't hear that he got a divorce. Anyone got anything else besides 'his wife left'?

If there is one preacher on TV which inspired very grounded scriptural knowledge, it is Dr. Stanley. I suppose I never looked too closely at his personal life, but man what an expounder on the scriptures...always
poking at my heart for things that ought not to be there. He always reminds me of the 'old school' preacher.

Anyhoo....any links/stories?

edit to add: I make no assesment as to his worthiness of teaching/leading/preaching. I would sit under his preaching anyday.

[Rinny-7]

I don't think any of us have a right to sit in judgment on whether or not Dr. Stanley should step down. This is between him and God. I have no doubts that Dr. Stanley has prayed without ceasing about his decision to stay in the pulpit. If he was convicted to step down, I believe he would have.

I agree with Carmen, 100%. If God didn't want him there, He could easily have him removed.

As far as being a husband of one wife, he was and still is.

[BHiles]

I don't think any of us have a right to sit in judgment on whether or not Dr. Stanley should step down. This is between him and God. I have no doubts that Dr. Stanley has prayed without ceasing about his decision to stay in the pulpit. If he was convicted to step down, I believe he would have.

I agree with Carmen, 100%. If God didn't want him there, He could easily have him removed.

As far as being a husband of one wife, he was and still is.

Actually this is a matter for his church. They must decide what they should do but they should not ignore scripture.

[carmen]

Actually this is a matter for his church. They must decide what they should do but they should not ignore scripture.Although I agree that if his local body feels God's leading to remove him as their pastor, they should do so, Stanley's ministry reaches far beyond that local congregation. That portion of his ministry, and whether to continue it, will have to rest with he and the Lord, IMHO, as well as those Christians that use and learn from his materials.

[BHiles]

Although I agree that if his local body feels God's leading to remove him as their pastor, they should do so, Stanley's ministry reaches far beyond that local congregation. That portion of his ministry, and whether to continue it, will have to rest with he and the Lord, IMHO, as well as those Christians that use and learn from his materials.

I would agree that His ministry outside the local church if he so chose to minister elsewhere is between He and God. However the local church as an institution must decide the status of elders, bishops and deacons among them and there is a level of authority and accountability that the local church provides. I personally feel that if he were not allowed to pastor that God would have for Him an even larger role for the kingdom sake. Even though the circumstances were not necessarily of his own fault we must trust God that in our obedience He will author our promotion and usefulness for the kingdoms sake.

[rosenherman]

Maybe Satan worked on his wife until she left him with Satan's express purpose being to ruin his ministry.

Dr. Stanley is awesome. It is hard for me to believe anything else could be true. Although he is just a man, but still.....

I believe, biblically that he should step down if he wanted to remarry. But the verse "husband of one wife" means he shouldn't remarry and should try to reconcile with his wife, right? So why should he step down unless he wanted to remarry?

Any thoughts?
That's just what I was thinking. As long has he doesn't remarry until she dies, he's still the husband of only one wife. He is blameless in this situation and I, for one would sorely missing his preaching. He's one amazingly annointed pastor, God has used him to speak directly to me on more than one occasion. He's as wonderful a pastor as Dr. McGee!

[carmen]

However the local church as an institution must decide the status of elders, bishops and deacons among them and there is a level of authority and accountability that the local church provides. :nod Solid, biblical accountability (which includes of course forgiveness, grace and restoration, as well as enforcement of His will and rule) among believers seems to be something that is sadly lacking in the Body of Christ today, IMHO.

[rosenherman]

Actually this is a matter for his church. They must decide what they should do but they should not ignore scripture.
According to scripture, Dr. Stanley is blameless and they voted, solidly, in favor of retaining him. (Smart church!)

[BHiles]

:nod Solid, biblical accountability (which includes of course forgiveness, grace and restoration, as well as enforcement of His will and rule) among believers seems to be something that is sadly lacking in the Body of Christ today, IMHO. You are correct. I am very irritated by the blatant disregard within my own ranks. If we don't God will.

[Caligirl]

To Answer Cameron Question,
No, I don't think he should remain the pastor.


I personally feel that if he were not allowed to pastor that God would have for Him an even larger role for the kingdom sake. Even though the circumstances were not necessarily of his own fault we must trust God that in our obedience He will author our promotion and usefulness for the kingdoms sake.

Exactly. If only People would trust God more in all that they do. Even if that means leaving something that you love so much. If they obey, God will use them even more powerful somewhere else.

I can't remember his name but he was a Pastor, a well know one. Been so long now. Anyway, he was a Pastor and his daugther ended up doing drugs as a teenager. Because of the scripture about a Pastor having to be able to run his household, his children.. keep control, he felt he had to step down because of what his daugther did.
NO one told him too but the Holy Spirit. 1 Tim 3

His daugther, she came around but he still felt he had to step down.
After he obeyed God, he wrote this book. This book had helped so many and he was in a whole different type of ministry now. One that the Lord used him in powerful ways.
God totally blessed him for his obediance.

Pastors have a huge job in guiding the flock. If they can't keep their own family together, then they are not meant to stay in that position according to scripture.

As far as the comments about if God doesn't want them in that position he can take them out. God doesn't always work that way as we can plainly see on TV. Just because someone is a Pastor and God doesn't take him out, does not mean that is a good thing!

[carmen]

As far as the comments about if God doesn't want them in that position he can take them out. God doesn't always work that way as we can plainly see on TV. Just because someone is a Pastor and God doesn't take him out, does not mean that is a good thing!Not sure about the others, but I said that because I don't feel God's guidance leading me to think he should resign (perhaps because it really isn't anything I personally have a need to know). In the absence of that leading, I will give my brother the benefit of the doubt and believe that if he felt God's leading to step down, he would have :):

Okay, I will :tape now on this topic :D:

[Caligirl]

Not sure about the others, but I said that because I don't feel God's guidance leading me to think he should resign (perhaps because it really isn't anything I personally have a need to know). In the absence of that leading, I will give my brother the benefit of the doubt and believe that if he felt God's leading to step down, he would have :):

Okay, I will :tape now on this topic :D:

The problem is, our flesh can really get in the way of what we feel is "leading" by the Holy Spirit. That is why we must always make sure that "leading" matches up to the bible.

I can't tell you how many unbelievers and believers that I know that will use these Pastor's that have divorced for there own excuse to divorce. Really is sad thing that the leader of the flock would be that kind of example.
AND, before anyone flames for holding marriage up so high....I do NOT believe it is a salvation issue, AND, I do believe that God forgives those that have divorced.

BUT, sure makes sense to me what the bible says in 1 Timothy.
If a pastor can't keep his own family together, for whatever reason, best to step down.

[carmen]

The problem is, our flesh can really get in the way of what we feel is "leading" by the Holy Spirit. That is why we must always make sure that "leading" matches up to the bible.I agree and I'm sorry if I left the impression that my "leading" means more to me than the Word. That is not my feeling at all and I don't want anyone to think so :):

[cathy1953]

Wow, didn't hear that he got a divorce. Anyone got anything else besides 'his wife left'?
Anyhoo....any links/stories?



I heard that she left him because he devoted too much time to the ministry and not enough time to her.
A friend of mine told me that, and I don't know where she heard it.
Maybe his wife was feeling left out of his life and alone.
A minisister's job can become consuming, I imagine. He has a very large church.
Does he not have "other" pastors to help him?

[Caligirl]

I agree and I'm sorry if I left the impression that my "leading" means more to me than the Word. That is not my feeling at all and I don't want anyone to think so :):
NO,I didnt think you meant that. I meant that maybe that is what happen to Stanley.
Pastor's love their churches, it is like there family. It would be really hard to step down I would think.

[cameron222]

Cathy posted:
I heard that she left him because he devoted too much time to the ministry and not enough time to her.
_____________________________

This brings up another good point. Is the pastor more responsible to his church family or his personal family? I would think the latter.

And pastor's wives can get the short end of the stick. After hearing people's problems and confessions all day long, the pastor goes home and the last thing he wants to hear about is another problem. So the wife loses her outlet to vent, and just when the two of them are about to establish communications....the phone rings, and off the pastor goes to address another issue.

We should insist that our pastors take frequent vacations and holidays to refresh and devote time to their spouses and children.

[BarbT]

Several years ago I was doing some research on Dr Stanley's ministry, trying to track down one of his sermons. I was saddened to read about his divorce at that time. The site {I have no idea which one now} refered to his wife having mental health problems. It was not said in a gossipy way but compassionately in order to shed some light on how painful the situation was for both husband and wife.

I have loved Charles Stanley even more since then. :):

[Benja32one]

I am wondering why he would WANT to preach. Is there no other trade which he could be trained for ... ?
:wave
I have learned not 'to judge another man's servant' in these matters. Some times God will use a cracked jar when He doesn''t have a whole one to fill, even if some of the contents are lost.
:thumb

[cameron222]

Benja can I use your "cracked jar" anaolgy sometime? I liked that. :):

[Elizabeth_S]

I have the utmost respect for Dr. Stanley. As you stated, his wife divorced him and he has not remarried.
I imagine he still considers himself the husband of one wife.

And I understand he tried to step down.

My Mom never remarried when my Dad divorced her, she just couldn't bring herself to, she had married Dad and that was it.

[Benja32one]

Benja can I use your "cracked jar" anaolgy sometime? I liked that. :):

:nod
Not original with me. It comes from the word 'adokimus' = unapproved, rejected. Used in the Egyptian papyri by a man inspecting pottery quality.
:pound

[HeIsEnough]

I heard that she left him because he devoted too much time to the ministry and not enough time to her.
A friend of mine told me that, and I don't know where she heard it.
Maybe his wife was feeling left out of his life and alone.
A minisister's job can become consuming, I imagine. He has a very large church.
Does he not have "other" pastors to help him?

Thats too bad. I believe Paul spoke to this, in that a man's devotions become divided when in the ministry and married. Hence probably the logic in the catholic tradition. It would not surprise me at all that many problems stemmed from this situation.

He should have elevated her to a higher station perhaps, and worked with her side by side everyday. I'm not exactly sure, but it seems like Van Impe works daily with his wife. Paul even suggested to not marry, and devote your whole life to His service. Seems a better way, but being never getting married would leave some life experience out as well.

From everyting posted here, it sounds like she left on her own.

[cathy1953]

Thats too bad. I believe Paul spoke to this, in that a man's devotions become divided when in the ministry and married. Hence probably the logic in the catholic tradition. It would not surprise me at all that many problems stemmed from this situation.

He should have elevated her to a higher station perhaps, and worked with her side by side everyday. I'm not exactly sure, but it seems like Van Impe works daily with his wife. Paul even suggested to not marry, and devote your whole life to His service. Seems a better way, but being never getting married would leave some life experience out as well.

From everyting posted here, it sounds like she left on her own.


Good points. Even tho Jack is putting out some teachings that I don't agree with nowadays, I will say that he does seem to show his love for his wife.

[Catwoman]

I've never listened to Dr. Stanley and thought "Oh my! He's divorced. I musn't listen to him!".

The man is an awesome teacher of the Word. One of the very best. That's he's divorced is a non-issue to me. His church didn't want him to stop preaching. Why anybody else would is over my head.

[Caligirl]

I've never listened to Dr. Stanley and thought "Oh my! He's divorced. I musn't listen to him!".

The man is an awesome teacher of the Word. One of the very best. That's he's divorced is a non-issue to me. His church didn't want him to stop preaching. Why anybody else would is over my head.

The question was, Do you believe that divorce Pastors should remain as Pastors and preach.

I believe that the bible says No, he shouldn't.
It is not a personal thing with me at all, I am sure he is very nice man and he is still saved, not a salvation issue. But, I can't go by my personal opinion, but try to by the word of God.

I had a Pastor years ago, he left our church because he felt God moved him to another church far away. He was sweetest nicest Pastor, very sound as well. But, for some reason, he and his wife divorced. I knew her as well...very nice woman. I was shocked and so were many others. He knew he had to step down and hasn't pastor since. Do I still love the guy and his wife, sure, but he did the right thing.

"He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgement as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devils trap" 1 Tim 3

It is just not having one wife, but being able to manage your whole family.
AND, having a good reputation with outsiders.
It is a shame that Christians are getting divorce as much as unbelievers now. I KNOW, some have to leave and it is bibical for them to do so, but still, if that does happen and you are a Pastor, he says to step down.

IF, my husband was a Pastor, he is not, but if he was. We had two of our foster children rebell when they got older. IF he was a pastor, he would of had to step down. Even though it probably wasn't even his fault for that rebellion, you still need to listen to God's word.

[hopehome]

AMEN Caligirl...AMEN!

[ATYCLB]

I could be way off here, and I'm sure someone will let me know that I am,:):
but there is a big difference between managing your family and controlling
your family. While we do have the ability to manage certain aspects of
our family lives, we do not have the ability to control every action of
our family members.

If every pastor with a wayward child were to step down, how many
would actually be left to lead the flock?

[Caligirl]

I could be way off here, and I'm sure someone will let me know that I am,:):
but there is a big difference between managing your family and controlling
your family. While we do have the ability to manage certain aspects of
our family lives, we do not have the ability to control every action of
our family members.

If every pastor with a wayward child were to step down, how many
would actually be left to lead the flock?

Actually, I think you would have quite a few. I am talking about Children, not when these children become adults and not living in the home anymore.

Stanley, He had it right the first time. Why do you think he told his congregation he was going to step down? He knows what the word of God says.

His congregation did him harm by begging him to stay. That is not love by encouraging someone to go against Gods word.
Stanley will pay the price for disobeying God's word. He is still saved, but all of us pay a price for disobediance. I don't know how, but he will. Just like we all do for going against his word.

These days are getting pretty scary as we can see the world changing God's truth into their own.

The only thing we have that we can depend on his God's word. His Holy Spirit to guide us and that means always going by scripture.
If you start changing that in the name of Love, it is going to hurt you in the long run. If you start changing his word saying, "but it wasn't his or her fault", it is going to hurt you in the long run.

My kids bio mom, before my daugther came to live with us, she was four. Her bio mom gave her everything she wanted. If she cried, she gave in. That meant she didn't have any childhood shots when she should have. Why? because she said it hurt. She never brushed her hair, Why? Because she said it hurt. She let her eat anything she wanted, Why? Out of love she said. Caused her to have many fat cells that came back to haunt her later.

When my daugther became 18, she went to see her bio mom. Her mom and her did drugs together. The mom said, Well, I didn't want to be mean and she wanted some!! :twitch
To us, that seems crazy, but to this mom, she really believed that what she was doing was out of love.

My daugther, no matter how much she rebelled in a party lifestyle, who does she call, who does she feel safe with? Us, she feels totally safe with us even now. Why, because we cared enough to say NO.

You may say that this example is to the extreme, but it really isn't. I am seeing this so much in the Christian world now. People defending leaders that are guiding others to dangerous doctrine. People defending sin saying.."Well, we all sin" !!
Same type of thinking if you ask me...just plain crazy...

[His4ever]

If the man had no control over his wife leaving him and she went whether he wanted her to or not, then why shouldn't he continue preaching? Why should he be set aside because of what his wife did. That just doesn't seem right to me.

[ATYCLB]

Actually, I think you would have quite a few. I am talking about Children, not when these children become adults and not living in the home anymore.I'm not talking about the kids who have moved on either. I'm talking about those between 13 and 18 (maybe older) who are still living at home. Should a pastor step down if one of those kids lie, steal, lust, experiment with drinking and smoking, etc.,?

[Catwoman]

[QUOTE=Caligirl]The question was, Do you believe that divorce Pastors should remain as Pastors and preach.

You know it doesn't bother me that Dr. Stanley is divorced. I don't know every nuance and facet of what happened in his marriage....All I know with this man is that he divorced, he apparently said he would step aside and his congregation I guess voted for him to stay or asked him to stay....anyway he stayed.

As with anything else there are 2 sides to every situation. I think it should be addressed by each church body.

I love Dr. Stanley. I think he's a marvelous preacher. I never fail to learn from him. He's beloved by many. I'm thinking about the many he leads to Christ every week thru his church and TV ministry. So we deny him the opportunity to preach because his marriage failed? I don't think that's right.

[Caligirl]

I didn't write the rules, God did. I guess you have to ask him when things don't seem fair, but I have to go by his word even when I don't understand things.

Everyone can have an excuse for things they do. Half the people in jail have a pretty good reason for being there.There parents taught them how to steal, lie, etc. Does that mean we don't hold the laws?

If you want to change God's word because you don't understand it, or it doesn't seem fair, so be it. I can't. Life is full of "unfair". That doesnt mean we change what is right in the eyes of the Lord.

[Caligirl]

[QUOTE=Caligirl]The question was, Do you believe that divorce Pastors should remain as Pastors and preach.

You know it doesn't bother me that Dr. Stanley is divorced. I don't know every nuance and facet of what happened in his marriage....All I know with this man is that he divorced, he apparently said he would step aside and his congregation I guess voted for him to stay or asked him to stay....anyway he stayed.

As with anything else there are 2 sides to every situation. I think it should be addressed by each church body.

I love Dr. Stanley. I think he's a marvelous preacher. I never fail to learn from him. He's beloved by many. I'm thinking about the many he leads to Christ every week thru his church and TV ministry. So we deny him the opportunity to preach because his marriage failed? I don't think that's right.


"sigh".
I never said no one should not love the man, but I still think he should listen to God.

I don't have a arguement for you guys if you don't go by the word of God. If you choose to ignore it, there really is nothing more for me to say.
We can agree to disagree.

[Catwoman]

Then we disagree...it happens.

[Caligirl]

Then we disagree...it happens.

And it will keep on hapening as the days get worse. All of us need to stay alert because it is going to get even more confusing.

We have to remember that they bible tells us that we are to judge one another as stated in Cor.
It says we are NOT to judge the world, they don't know any better. So for us to put down unbelievers, who do not know the truth yet, makes no sense. We tell them the truth, dont sway on the truth, but we can't expect much from them. But, we should from one another.
That is why he said we can judge those within the church, but not outside.

When I read alot of these posts, seems that so many judging on the unsaved, but not holding brothers and sister accountable. Really makes no sense to me and does not match up with scripture.

[ATYCLB]

I didn't write the rules, God did. I guess you have to ask him when things don't seem fair, but I have to go by his word even when I don't understand things.

Everyone can have an excuse for things they do. Half the people in jail have a pretty good reason for being there.There parents taught them how to steal, lie, etc. Does that mean we don't hold the laws?

If you want to change God's word because you don't understand it, or it doesn't seem fair, so be it. I can't. Life is full of "unfair". That doesnt mean we change what is right in the eyes of the Lord.But Caligirl, that doesn't mean we are to read more into the "rules"
than what was intended. You quoted but one part of 1 Timothy 3
as your reasons for Stanley to step down. Just because his wife
divorced him doesn't mean that he didn't manage his family well.

More importantly, 1 Timothy 3 states that the pastor (overseer)
must be "the husband of but one wife," which Dr. Stanley still is
unless he has remarried recently. To be the husband of but one
wife and being divorced by your wife are two different things.

[Caligirl]

But Caligirl, that doesn't mean we are to read more into the "rules"
than what was intended. You quoted but one part of 1 Timothy 3
as your reasons for Stanley to step down. Just because his wife
divorced him doesn't mean that he didn't manage his family well.

More importantly, 1 Timothy 3 states that the pastor (overseer)
must be "the husband of but one wife," which Dr. Stanley still is
unless he has remarried recently. To be the husband of but one
wife and being divorced by your wife are two different things.

I can't explain to you all the "Whys" of how God works. All I know that for some reason, Stanley couldn't manage his household well because his wife left. Plus there is more to that verse. It isn't a good example for a Pastor to be divorced. I can't see a wife leaving a man who has loved her as much as Christ loved the church, but I guess it can happen. I have seen children rebell and it didnt seem to be the parenting but personal choice.

I don't know why God allows the wife to leave or children to rebell in a Pastors life. All I know is that it says if it does happen, he must step down. Those verses seem very clear to me.

Life isn't fair. Did it seem fair what happen to Job? All that happened because satan came to God and said that Job only loved him because of his things. God knew that wasn't true but still let satan do all those things to Job to prove his point. It doesn't seem fair, but I know God is good even when I don't understand things. Job, he came through, but still, did it look fair?

I have learned that when I listen to God's word and obey it even when I don't understand, things always turn out better and for a reason. When I don't obey, I suffer for it. I won't use the excuse and say to him "I went against your word because my way sounded better". Doesn't work that way...

[ATYCLB]

All I know is that it says if it does happen, he must step down.Scripture?

[Caligirl]

Scripture?
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not give to drunkeness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgement as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devils trap" 1 Tim 3

As clear as ever!!

[CountryBumpkin]

Caligirl, I agree with all you have to say. I love Charles Stanley but if it means don’t have any divorced men in positions of leadership, then that is what it means and we cannot compromise the Word of God.
To me IMHO it is the same as this scenario: A man who is saved and then gets divorced, studies to become a preacher. Should he be allowed to then become a preacher of a congregation? It does not matter who divorced who. According to 1Timothy 3 he should not be allowed to.
From my studies I have found that "husband of one wife" is like a one woman man which to me means a man who is devoted to his wife and works at maintaining that relationship and fire in their marraige for all to see.

[Caligirl]

From my studies I have found that "husband of one wife" is like a one woman man which to me means a man who is devoted to his wife and works at maintaining that relationship and fire in their marraige for all to see.
Exactly.

People seem to have a hard time understanding that you can still love someone but yet hold them accountable to God's word. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I want people to hold me accountable as well and I will and have blown it.

It hit me today that a lot of people judge unbelievers and their attitudes more then they do Christians. It is suppose to be the other way around. I have been guilty of that as well and have to be careful. They really don't realize what they are doing and we should.

[Caligirl]

Well thanks for the convo all, it is always good to take a look at scriptures and see what God has to say..
:): I need to get out and walk my dogs. My Siberian is staring out the window so wanting to go run. It is quite a task walking all 3, A siberian, lab and shepherd. :twitch I am talking my two kids into going with me!!! :):

Have a good rest of the day...

[cameron222]

Cali I love Dr. Stanley and he is a mighty man of God. We have all slipped and fell and encountered rough road. But my point is one of example. If he as a major pastor can get divorced and not loose anything, then a couple under his ministry might decide they too can divorce without severe consequences because......Dr. Stanley did it.

It a matter of example.

But in the article he did say that God told him to stay and if God did tell him that, then I have to support him.

[Morningstarlet]

This matter is between Charles Stanley and God. God will remove him from the pulpit if he doesn't want him in that position. If the people voted him to stay on, and if God blesses his ministry then I say it's their business.

[Elizabeth_S]

This matter is between Charles Stanley and God. God will remove him from the pulpit if he doesn't want him in that position. If the people voted him to stay on, and if God blesses his ministry then I say it's their business.
And it is between Chanrles Stanley, God and his church.

As for me, he is not may Pastor, but a very learned biblical teacher and that is what I get from his teachings, learning God's word and as far as I know, there is no biblical mandate that I can't listen to a man who is divorced as he teaches God's word, and clearly is teaching very biblically.

[Caligirl]

Cali I love Dr. Stanley and he is a mighty man of God. We have all slipped and fell and encountered rough road. But my point is one of example. If he as a major pastor can get divorced and not loose anything, then a couple under his ministry might decide they too can divorce without severe consequences because......Dr. Stanley did it.

It a matter of example.

But in the article he did say that God told him to stay and if God did tell him that, then I have to support him.

Well I guess Stanley and I pray differently. If I pray and hear a voice, I match it up with scripture, it says to test all spirits. So, if that voice it telling me to go against what God teaches, I know it can't be from God because he doesn't go against his own word.

It would be a very scary day if I didn't care what scriptures say and only go by my feelings. I pray that day never happens.

[Caligirl]

And it is between Chanrles Stanley, God and his church.

As for me, he is not may Pastor, but a very learned biblical teacher and that is what I get from his teachings, learning God's word and as far as I know, there is no biblical mandate that I can't listen to a man who is divorced as he teaches God's word, and clearly is teaching very biblically.

That wasn't the issue here Elizabeth. The question was, should he remain a Pastor. No where did I state I could never listen to the man, but should he be a Pastor, I believe the word of God says no. It is talking about guiding the flock, if you can't do that with our own family, then how can you with a church.
I have no doubt that God could use him in very powerful ways if he obeyed God's word.

[Caligirl]

This matter is between Charles Stanley and God. God will remove him from the pulpit if he doesn't want him in that position. If the people voted him to stay on, and if God blesses his ministry then I say it's their business.

Yes, it is the churches business. I don't go there so I don't have a say in it. I am just answering Cameron question on what I feel God says about Pastors. If mine were to divorce, I could not stay there because of what the word of God says.

[Catwoman]

God is using him in a very powerful way Cali...he has a massive TV ministry and from all accounts by looking at his programs his church is fairly large. He also writes books and does the CD's and tape stuff too. So God has been using him. And in a most powerful way. He's reaching many, many people.

[Caligirl]

God is using him in a very powerful way Cali...he has a massive TV ministry and from all accounts by looking at his programs his church is fairly large. He also writes books and does the CD's and tape stuff too. So God has been using him. And in a most powerful way. He's reaching many, many people.


That is my point Catwoman. He will use him in powerful ways and that doesn't have to be in a church as a Pastor.

Why bother reading the bible if we are not going to listen to it?

[Catwoman]

It's not "will" He use him...He is using Pastor Stanley. Present tense. He is reaching people in need, changing lives, telling people about the Lord, saving souls. He is right now.

Were he not a pastor I don't think he'd have that opportunity. He would almost certainly lose his TV ministry. All the ones I see on Christian TV are pastors..at their churches...except for Billy Graham.

I thank the Lord everyday for people like Charles Stanley. Flaws and all.....like another poster said if he weren't meant to be doing what he's doing he wouldn't be.

We just disagree that's all.

[Caligirl]

It's not "will" He use him...He is using Pastor Stanley. Present tense. He is reaching people in need, changing lives, telling people about the Lord, saving souls. He is right now.

Were he not a pastor I don't think he'd have that opportunity. He would almost certainly lose his TV ministry. All the ones I see on Christian TV are pastors..at their churches...except for Billy Graham.

I thank the Lord everyday for people like Charles Stanley. Flaws and all.....like another poster said if he weren't meant to be doing what he's doing he wouldn't be.

We just disagree that's all.

So you think that it is okay to ignore Scripture?

[Caligirl]

This is exactly why the requirements of a pastors has to remain so high.

Right now, what I am seeing, many are thinking that because someone is a great teacher, it is okay to ignore scripture. What kind of example is that?

There is going to be a day when many of you will have to decide to either to follow God's word, or follow what you think is best. I hope and pray that you follow God's word because you will suffer if you follow yourself, instead of God.

That scripture is very clear. There is no way you can change the wording in those verses.

We are in the end times. Do you not see the way the world is going? You start making your own rules, you start following what you think is best instead of God...well, that is just plain scary to me....

There is nothing more I can say on this thread. Those that want to follow what they feel is right in their own eyes, nothing more I can say.
But for me, I will Follow what is right in the eyes of God, even when it doesn't make sense, even when it seems so harsh, even when the world calls it mean. I Pray I will trust God and his word and nothing else till the end...

[semperfidelis]

I do believe there is restoration and hope in the Lord after divorce, just as with any sin--although whether Stanley actually sinned in this case isn't something I am privy to. Not knowing all the facts of the case, I am surprised that anyone would dare to sit in judgement on it :confused. Of course, I could be biased somewhat, since I find myself in the same position as Charles Stanley.

I will say this....if God doesn't want the man in ministry, He is more than able to remove him from that office. If God chooses not to, I am not sure I want the burden of making that judgement. I personally feel no leading whatsoever from the Holy Spirit against Charles Stanley or his ministry; if anything, I feel FOR him. If that changes, I will follow accordingly. For now, I leave this with God.

I agree.

Let me ask you all this. We are all sinners. Are you removed from your office or calling from the Lord? Should you step down?


Moses murdered someone before he led the Israelites out of Egypt.
Saul murdered many Christians before becoming an apostle and the greatest evangelist to the Gentiles
Peter denied Christ three times before becoming the rock. (and he was the only apostle that had the courage to even show his face)
Abraham slept with Hagar and fathered a child out of marriage, while married before concieving Issac.
David slept with Bethsheba but was restored.

Under the standards set by some on this thread would Saul have been able to carry out his mission as an apostle? Would all of these men have been removed from the Ministry?

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Caligirl]

I agree.

Let me ask you all this. We are all sinners. Are you removed from your office or calling from the Lord? Should you step down?


Moses murdered someone before he led the Israelites out of Egypt.
Saul murdered many Christians before becoming an apostle and the greatest evangelist to the Gentiles
Peter denied Christ three times before becoming the rock. (and he was the only apostle that had the courage to even show his face)
Abraham slept with Hagar and fathered a child out of marriage, while married before concieving Issac.
David slept with Bethsheba but was restored.

Under the standards set by some on this thread would Saul have been able to carry out his mission as an apostle? Would all of these men have been removed from the Ministry?

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

Unbelievable!
What do you all do with scripture?

Well, this goes to show you what damage Warren, Schuller, Foster and the rest of them have done to so many. And you all think they are totally right on in their teaching...

I can't even watch this anymore. You all might as well throw out that bible of yours for as much as you listen to it..Unbelievable.... As for me, I am going to hold on to it tight!!

Admins,
You now can get me out of here and close my account.
I know you don't have a easy job so I thank you.., I just can't watch this anymore.

[Gary]

Well I guess Stanley and I pray differently. If I pray and hear a voice, I match it up with scripture, it says to test all spirits. So, if that voice it telling me to go against what God teaches, I know it can't be from God because he doesn't go against his own word.

It would be a very scary day if I didn't care what scriptures say and only go by my feelings. I pray that day never happens.

How can you claim to know what God is saying to Dr. Stanley???

Obviously your interpretation of "husband of one wife' is different from what many others here have posted.

She left him seemingly because he was deep into his ministry (looks to me like he's got his priorities straight..."seek ye first the kingdom of God") and his wife wasn't okay with that. Nothing he could do about it

He has not remarried, still the husband of one wife.

"manage his own family" - again, it seems to me he had his priorites straight, putting the Lord's work first. His wife probably knew that when they got married. A good pastor's wife, I think would accept that his first allegiance should be to God.

So far I have seen nothing in scripture that should prevent Dr. Stanley from continuing in his ministry. You seem bound and determined to judge not only him, but those of us who appreciate his teachings and support him.

Don't try to hide behind scripture when it's really your opinion that's being presented here.

[Gary]

Unbelievable!
What do you all do with scripture?

Well, this goes to show you what damage Warren, Schuller, Foster and the rest of them have done to so many. And you all think they are totally right on in their teaching...

I can't even watch this anymore. You all might as well throw out that bible of yours for as much as you listen to it..Unbelievable.... As for me, I am going to hold on to it tight!!

Admins,
You now can get me out of here and close my account.
I know you don't have a easy job so I thank you.., I just can't watch this anymore.

:freaked

:wave

[lookup]

Cathy posted:
I heard that she left him because he devoted too much time to the ministry and not enough time to her.
_____________________________

This brings up another good point. Is the pastor more responsible to his church family or his personal family? I would think the latter.


I agree with you, Cameron. Not only pastors, but all of us are to be first of all responsible for our own families.

At the same time, I think whether or not a pastor should step down because of the wrong choices of a member of his family should be considered on an individual basis, rather than applying the cookie-cutter mentality. By that, I mean what is God's will in that particular situation?

While, according to scripture, God desires his church leaders to be good managers of their households, I don't see that those scriptures indicate leaders should necessarily abandon their posts everytime their families have a crisis. (And guess what... being human beings, every family, even pastor's families, have their share of challenges.)

It may be God's will for that pastor to devote his full attention to his family during a crisis. It may be God's will that he remain a pastor and be an example to the congregation and the community as to how a child of God should react when crises come.

But the pastor and everyone else should seek God's will in the matter, even if it is contrary to their own will.

[Caligirl]

:freaked

:wave

We can agree to disagree on this one Gary. But God has put a strong burden in my heart to pray for you my friend....for the financial place you are in right now...

I pray things work out soon and will keep on praying.. :wave

[lookup]

Just one other comment on this topic,

Unlike most other "professions" or "occupations," it seems that the spouse of a pastor must also be somehow be called to the ministry, wouldn't you think? While that spouse is not the pastor (and must understand and appreciate this), that spouse has a ministry to both the pastor and his congregation.

I've witnessed some of the pain pastors and churches go through when the family of a pastor are not "on board" spiritually-speaking. It would almost seem like that pastor would be more effective if he were single. Yet I've also been blessed many times by pastor's wives who cared just as much for the church and the community as did the pastor, and faithfully exercised her particular gifts to encourage both the pastor and the congregation.

Young single people being called into the ministry need to very seriously seek God's will concerning a marriage partner ('course we all do, right?)

[billiefan2000]

blitz...he is an excellent "teacher." We have divorced teachers in our church, but I don't believe we would ever call a divorced pastor.

Perhaps a teaching ministry would be better than heading the church.


Cameron,why are only bringing up Charles Stanley being divorced from his wife when you arent bringing up

when Richard Roberts, who is in the process of taking over the ministry of his father, Oral, divorced his first wife and married a Oral Roberts University student.

or that

Clarence McClendon who is a preacher on TBN got divorced and re-married

or Clint Brown a mega-church preacher and singer from Florida who's WOF Teachings have made me richer than Warren Buffett

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/10970196.htm

The fact is divorce is rampant in the church and I think we need to not focus on Charles Stanley or Clint Brown or Richard Roberts but focus on the problem altogether.

I found a article at:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/divorceis.htm

that brings up that sadly

DIVORCE IS RAMPANT AMONG CHRISTIAN LEADERS

[rosenherman]

1 Timothy 3

1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So this means, you must be married. No single men shall be pastors. Interesting concept.
What a great way for satan to lead people away from an anointed pastor, cause a spouse to leave and bingo, gone is the pastor.

[Elizabeth_S]

That wasn't the issue here Elizabeth. The question was, should he remain a Pastor. No where did I state I could never listen to the man, but should he be a Pastor, I believe the word of God says no. It is talking about guiding the flock, if you can't do that with our own family, then how can you with a church.
I have no doubt that God could use him in very powerful ways if he obeyed God's word.
I believe I was addressing morningstarlet, so I am not sure what the issue for you is here?

Charles Stanley is a man of God and a very brutually honest man - even with himself, if yo have read any of his books (glimpse into his character). If he says that God has asked him to stay there over this church, then it is between God and him.

And if it is true that the issues with his wife and him were because of mental issues (not calling her crazy, just it was mentioned that it was brought up) on her part, then you cannot lay at his feet any illness she may have had or does have.

It is not a failure on his part if she is not well. And that is the biblical mandate, is if he cannot control his own house, how can he control God's, is it not?

However, I do not know anything other than what I have read, so I imagine we have to leave this issue up to God, now don't we.

It is just crossing over into gossip now, you do not know the situation any more than the rest of us.

Just as God will deal with people like Hinn and Schuller, so will God deal with anyone else who is or is not, in rebellion to him. At least IMHO.

[HeIsEnough]

Right now, what I am seeing, many are thinking that because someone is a great teacher, it is okay to ignore scripture. What kind of example is that?


Right now, I'm reading someone who probably is not in the ministry. I am fairly certain that very very few could pass the biblical tests in the way you would interpret them. Not everyone interprets them to the exacting standard that you seem to. For one, would you not at least need to talk to the man before you could make a righteous judgement?

[Gary]

Just one other comment on this topic,

Unlike most other "professions" or "occupations," it seems that the spouse of a pastor must also be somehow be called to the ministry, wouldn't you think? While that spouse is not the pastor (and must understand and appreciate this), that spouse has a ministry to both the pastor and his congregation.



I think this is a good point. A pastor's wife should also have responsibilities within the church. In every church I have ever attended, Mrs. Pastor held Bible studies, women's conferences, socials etc in support of her husband's calling. I think it's vital that both are on the same page spiritually when it comes to pastoring a church.

[Caligirl]

Right now, I'm reading someone who probably is not in the ministry. I am fairly certain that very very few could pass the biblical tests in the way you would interpret them. Not everyone interprets them to the exacting standard that you seem to. For one, would you not at least need to talk to the man before you could make a righteous judgement?

I am sure my time is short here and will be removed soon but I just want to say that it is very discouraging to see that not to many of you have much faith in God in living a godly life. It isn't by our power but his.

You really don't think any man can live by those standards? That is so sad to me.

We are not to ever give up trying to be like Jesus. I know that we are not perfect, and any good we do, it is God doing it through us, through his power, not ours. But to ignore scripture, I dont get it.

To just give up as some of you seem to have done, saying, "well, we all sin, so don't bother following the word of God"...that is really sad to me. To say, "let he who has never sin, cast the first stone". You really are taking that scripture out of context. That doesn't change the fact that we are punished for our disobediance, I assure you, we are.

I would rather have a brother and sister in Christ encourage me to not sin, then the attitude that so many seem to have here that think it is okay to sin because everyone sins at one time or another.. To not hold each other accountable when we see it so clearly in scripture, I really just don't get it.

I have been around many Pastors that have held up to those requirements. And for some reason if something happens where they don't anymore, most I think, would be more likely to obey God and step down if it does happen. I have seen some do that very thing.

As far as the comment as this being gossip, where in the world do you get that from?
AGAIN, the question on this thread was...do you think a divorce Pastor should continue to be a Pastor. If we bring up certain pastor that have divorced, I don't think that is gossip whatsoever considering what the question was.

[sracer]

I've seen a few references to "husband of one wife" in this thread, but I missed the exegesis of it.

Does "husband of one wife" mean... must be married, can only be married once, or married to only one woman (no polygamy) at a time?

[Gary]

I am sure my time is short here and will be removed soon but I just want to say that it is very discouraging to see that not to many of you have much faith in God in living a godly life. It isn't by our power but his.

Wow Cali, I love you and all, but this statement is soooo judgmental. You are right. If you keep up this Better Christian theme, you won't last long. Please tone down the accusations :):

You really don't think any man can live by those standards? That is so sad to me.

No one in perfect. No one is saying that it is okay to sin, we need to try AS BEST WE CAN to follow Jesus. For some of us, it's harder than others.

We are not to ever give up trying to be like Jesus. I know that we are not perfect, and any good we do, it is God doing it through us, through his power, not ours. But to ignore scripture, I dont get it.

Again, no one is advocating ignoring scripture. Your idea of what that scripture says doesn't seem tpo be in line with what many others here think and you are calling us "poor Christians" because we disagree with your opinion. Not nice.

To just give up as some of you seem to have done, saying, "well, we all sin, so don't bother following the word of God"...that is really sad to me. To say, "let he who has never sin, cast the first stone". You really are taking that scripture out of context. That doesn't change the fact that we are punished for our disobediance, I assure you, we are.

I haven't seen anyone "give up". I have seen anyone here capitulate and say that "sin is okay because everyone does it". I think it is YOU, my friend that is taking not only scripture, but the posts in this thread, out of context.

I would rather have a brother and sister in Christ encourage me to not sin, then the attitude that so many seem to have here that think it is okay to sin because everyone sins at one time or another.. To not hold each other accountable when we see it so clearly in scripture, I really just don't get it.

See above comment. This seems to be a recurring theme.

I have been around many Pastors that have held up to those requirements. And for some reason if something happens where they don't anymore, most I think, would be more likely to obey God and step down if it does happen. I have seen some do that very thing.

I have had many pastors as good friends over the years. I have known some who were strogn in scriptural learning, but weak in their ability to lead. I have known some who were able to guide a flock, strong in family support, but a little less knowldgeable in scripture. Pastors are people too, with various degrees of stregnth and weakness.

As far as the comment as this being gossip, where in the world do you get that from?
AGAIN, the question on this thread was...do you think a divorce Pastor should continue to be a Pastor. If we bring up certain pastor that have divorced, I don't think that is gossip whatsoever considering what the question was.

The gossip comment from Liz IN CONTEXT, was that YOU do not know the circumstances of Dr. Stanley's divorce, yet you are judging him, calling him a sinner and should step down from the ministry anyway. You are throwing stones when you don't even have a target. I really don't want to see you go, so please, tone down the accusations and name calling. :):

[Gary]

I've seen a few references to "husband of one wife" in this thread, but I missed the exegesis of it.

Does "husband of one wife" mean... must be married, can only be married once, or married to only one woman (no polygamy) at a time?

Married to only one woman....ever.....unless death them do part. No divorce, and remarriage.

[sracer]

Married to only one woman....ever.....unless death them do part. No divorce, and remarriage.

The Greek phrase "Of one wife" as found in 1 Tim 3:2 is mias gunaikos. The definition of that phrase indicates that it is at any given time... so it appears to be a statement against polygamy. But I'm interested in hearing additional study on the original Greek.

[Caligirl]

Well, I have tried in vain to try to explain where I was coming from. It is really no use anymore...If you try to stick by God's word, you get in trouble.


I will be praying for those that the Lord has laid on my heart....

Hopefully Jesus will come soon....I sure hope so...

Bye all... :wave

[Gary]

The Greek phrase "Of one wife" as found in 1 Tim 3:2 is mias gunaikos. The definition of that phrase indicates that it is at any given time... so it appears to be a statement against polygamy. But I'm interested in hearing additional study on the original Greek.

Then it will have to be with someone more knowledgeable than I. :): You could be right.

[Gary]

Well, I have tried in vain to try to explain where I was coming from. It is really no use anymore...If you try to stick by God's word, you get in trouble.


I will be praying for those that the Lord has laid on my heart....

Hopefully Jesus will come soon....I sure hope so...

Bye all... :wave

Sigh....:sigh

Your decision. You won't get in trouble by sticking to God's word.

You will get into trouble if you assert that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

See you around... :wave

[Catwoman]

Nobody here knows what went on with Dr. Stanley. All we can judge is what type of fruit does his ministry bear? What type of man is he? Does he speak truth? Does he preach the Word?

I say his fruit is good, he's a good man, he speaks the truth, and he preaches the Word. I LEARN from him. He teaches about Jesus.

If you don't think so fine Cali. I respect that. You feel he's done something so unbiblical that he cannot preach effectively anymore. I don't.....and life goes on.

Edited to add...Cali I hope you decide to stay. Opinion and discussion is always welcome on this board. While I may not agree with you as I said I respect your opinion. Nice people talk religion on RR...that's a hard combination to find on the internet.

[HeIsEnough]

I just want to say that it is very discouraging to see that not to many of you have much faith in God in living a godly life. It isn't by our power but his.

Statements like this don't help, Caligirl. Just because some may disagree with the way you interpret the passages in question, does not make us all 'faithless' Why don't you just call me a carnal fool standing on the edge of hell? Feel better? Besides, I never even told you how I interpreted those in question anyway, so your not helping this out any. Why not ask, in a normal manner, "Hey you, I don't get somethin, could you explain how you arrived at your reasoning on this?" Maybe some people will respond better.


You really don't think any man can live by those standards? That is so sad to me.

Didn't say that at all. What I did say was no one need live up to your standard. God's standard is a different matter, and from what I gather, there is a lot of blather here about Mr. Stanley, so its difficult to make a righteous judgement for me. You can all you want.


But to ignore scripture, I dont get it.


I know the scriptures, but I am fairly clueless as to the details of Mr. Stanley's situation. Since you know every detail, perhaps you can tell me how you arrived at this righteous judgement that you have made.


As far as the comment as this being gossip, where in the world do you get that from?


Get your rant in order please. I never said gossip.

[Elizabeth_S]

I am sure my time is short here and will be removed soon but I just want to say that it is very discouraging to see that not to many of you have much faith in God in living a godly life. It isn't by our power but his.

You really don't think any man can live by those standards? That is so sad to me.

We are not to ever give up trying to be like Jesus. I know that we are not perfect, and any good we do, it is God doing it through us, through his power, not ours. But to ignore scripture, I dont get it.

To just give up as some of you seem to have done, saying, "well, we all sin, so don't bother following the word of God"...that is really sad to me. To say, "let he who has never sin, cast the first stone". You really are taking that scripture out of context. That doesn't change the fact that we are punished for our disobediance, I assure you, we are.

I would rather have a brother and sister in Christ encourage me to not sin, then the attitude that so many seem to have here that think it is okay to sin because everyone sins at one time or another.. To not hold each other accountable when we see it so clearly in scripture, I really just don't get it.

It would appear so.

I have been around many Pastors that have held up to those requirements. And for some reason if something happens where they don't anymore, most I think, would be more likely to obey God and step down if it does happen. I have seen some do that very thing.

As far as the comment as this being gossip, where in the world do you get that from?
AGAIN, the question on this thread was...do you think a divorce Pastor should continue to be a Pastor. If we bring up certain pastor that have divorced, I don't think that is gossip whatsoever considering what the question was.
Gossip comment come from?

When we start discussing his or ANYONE's life, and we do not have all the facts, it becomes GOSSIP. He could very well be wrong, as I pointed out in a previous post, and God will deal with that, just as God will deal with anyone, like Benny Hinn or Robert Schulller, or CHARLES STANLEY as HE sees fit.


Charles Stanley is not my Pastor, he is the church in Atlanta's Pastor, and you should really take it up with THEM and find out all the facts, instead of rumor and gossip on the internet.

And that is biblical:
1 Peter 4:14-16 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters. 16Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
1 Thessalonians 4:10-12 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

10and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; 11that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, 12that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

If we don't know the facts, find out for yourself, or see the above, from Paul.

[ATYCLB]

To just give up as some of you seem to have done, saying, "well, we all sin, so don't bother following the word of God"...that is really sad to me.I think this sentence speaks volumes. At no point in this thread was this said. I fully admit that I have the ability to misinterpret scripture from time to time. I pray, Caligirl, that you don't misinterpret scripture as badly as you've misinterpreted what was said here.

[sracer]

I think this sentence speaks volumes. At no point in this thread was this said. I fully admit that I have the ability to misinterpret scripture from time to time. I pray, Caligirl, that you don't misinterpret scripture as badly as you've misinterpreted what was said here.
I'm new to this board (I love what I've seen so far!) and I'm not sure what precipitated her reactions. But at its root may be something that we all can forget from time to time....

...that, "it is sometimes more important to be loving than to prove ourselves correct." Something that I have to regularly remind myself of. :wave

[CountryBumpkin]

Wow, we have different time zones here so I have missed what has been going on, well I can't believe what is going on.
I happen to agree with Caligirl on this one, and I am not talking about just Stanley but all pastors. That is what I understand 1Timothy 3 to say.
But I am not going to allow myself to be flamed so I am out of this thread.
I al
The sad thing is that what most of you did was let emotions get in the way and did not present your side with any scripture. If you had this could have been a learning curve for many.
:(:

[semperfidelis]

Unbelievable!
What do you all do with scripture?

Well, this goes to show you what damage Warren, Schuller, Foster and the rest of them have done to so many. And you all think they are totally right on in their teaching...

I can't even watch this anymore. You all might as well throw out that bible of yours for as much as you listen to it..Unbelievable.... As for me, I am going to hold on to it tight!!

Admins,
You now can get me out of here and close my account.
I know you don't have a easy job so I thank you.., I just can't watch this anymore.

Since you quoted me on this I need to understand what your saying here. If you have something to say then say it, no reason to beat around the bush and then ask the moderators to kick you out.

My point was that some of the greatest men in the bible fell into what would be worse situations than a divorce and they went on to do great things.

it is not for us to decide who goes on and does what in Gods kingdom. Man does not sit in the judgement seat on Gods plan for humans.

We need to be careful how we approach these issues lest we also find ourselves incapable of carrying out Gods will because of our own sin, or lack of seeing our own sin and thinking we are high and mighty.

We are all totally bankrupt sinners with nothing to offer. Our good deeds and so called cleanliness are like dirty rags to the Lord. All we have is the ability to recognize it and allow Christ to cleanse us. Only through him can we produce any good work.

I repeat. Scripture indicates that we are all unworthy and fall far short. When we start viewing "other peoples sins" like this then we somehow start thinking we are better and they are the "broken ones".

[Morningstarlet]

To just give up as some of you seem to have done, saying, "well, we all sin, so don't bother following the word of God"...that is really sad to me. To say, "let he who has never sin, cast the first stone". You really are taking that scripture out of context. That doesn't change the fact that we are punished for our disobediance, I assure you, we are.

I can't even watch this anymore. You all might as well throw out that bible of yours for as much as you listen to it..Unbelievable.... As for me, I am going to hold on to it tight!!


Sheesh, take a breath and relax. :twitch What exactly do you want us to do, boycott Charles Stanley? Maybe picket his Headquarters and have him drawn and quartered? Okay, so you don't think he should be a pastor ... you made that point very clear. And the rest of us that happen to enjoy his teaching are a bunch of losers? So glad we have you to set us straight. :rolleyes

[HeIsEnough]

Wow, we have different time zones here so I have missed what has been going on, well I can't believe what is going on.
I happen to agree with Caligirl on this one, and I am not talking about just Stanley but all pastors. That is what I understand 1Timothy 3 to say.
But I am not going to allow myself to be flamed so I am out of this thread.
:(:

"But I will stay and get one final jab in though"

Look, everyones opinion must withstand what the scriptures teach, and many hear flat out disagree with Caligirls strict interpretation. Her only response was to flame out. You c a n n o t discuss things with someone that worked up about being correct, when in fact they are not, imo.


The sad thing is that what most of you did was let emotions get in the way and did not present your side with any scripture. If you had this could have been a learning curve for many.

The only emotion I read was caligirl. Who was so unemotional, she quit the board.

Really CB, I asked for some facts, do you have them please? Otherwise, Mr. Stanley's situation should not be brought up. We surely can go over the scriptures though, if you would like, but you will need to put down your tradition first.


1 Timothy 3
Overseers and Deacons
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11In the same way, their wives[b] are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[c] appeared in a body,[d]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.


I am sure you have read assorted commentaries on this scripture. But it does seem very likely that Paul is referring to multiple wives, and not divorce. It is not to say it is condoned elsewhere, but that it is not mentioned here, and arguments from silence are weak and do often go beyond what the scriptures teach. If you view this otherwise, we can discuss it in much more detail. Are there any other scriptures?

[Elizabeth_S]

I'm new to this board (I love what I've seen so far!) and I'm not sure what precipitated her reactions. But at its root may be something that we all can forget from time to time....

...that, "it is sometimes more important to be loving than to prove ourselves correct." Something that I have to regularly remind myself of. :wave
Me too............................ and :wave sracer

[Dear2HIM]

I can't speak for Caligirl...but I would guess that her frustrations come from more than this thread. Perhaps a little spill-over happened here.

Caligirl, I support you in taking a break....but you will be missed here. I hope you come back.

For what it's worth you have helped sharpen me with your encouragement, and passion for the truth.
In many heated threads, you've maintained civility and respect (I think even Cameron will agree ;): )

Sorry to see you go. :(:

[semperfidelis]

deleted.

[Benja32one]

I've seen a few references to "husband of one wife" in this thread, but I missed the exegesis of it.

Does "husband of one wife" mean... must be married, can only be married once, or married to only one woman (no polygamy) at a time?
:wave
According to A.T. Robertson's Greek Word studies, "mias gunaika andros" (the husband of one wife, as it is in the KJV) means "CLEARLY, ONE WIFE AT A TIME." It is my take that we in modern times are reading into the text our social standards of today if we say, 'never before married'. It was common practice in those times for a man to have multiple wives when he came into the church, having been a pagan. Just how a man resolved his responsibilities to those other wives is not clear, when he chose one to remain his wife. But there it is.
:nod

[CountryBumpkin]

I am sure you have read assorted commentaries on this scripture. But it does seem very likely that Paul is referring to multiple wives, and not divorce. It is not to say it is condoned elsewhere, but that it is not mentioned here, and arguments from silence are weak and do often go beyond what the scriptures teach. If you view this otherwise, we can discuss it in much more detail. Are there any other scriptures?

I am not sure what you mean by my tradition. I am also not sure why you would want other scriptures?
I would like to put forward why I have come to this understanding and ask that you bear with me as I have much to learn still.
Please be aware that I do love Charles Stanley, and I take this as pertaining to all preachers.
If you disagree with me, I am OK with that. As I have said I am still learning, and if I have got it all wrong then please forgive me.

Here goes.
I have chosen one commentary by Jamieson Fausset and Brown:

husband of one wife — confuting the celibacy of Rome’s priesthood. Though the Jews practiced polygamy, yet as he is writing as to a Gentile Church, and as polygamy was never allowed among even laymen in the Church, the ancient interpretation that the prohibition here is against polygamy in a candidate bishop is not correct. It must, therefore, mean that, though laymen might lawfully marry again, candidates for the episcopate or presbytery were better to have been married only once. As in 1Ti_5:9, “wife of one man,” implies a woman married but once; so “husband of one wife” here must mean the same. The feeling which prevailed among the Gentiles, as well as the Jews (compare as to Anna, Luk_2:36, Luk_2:37), against a second marriage would, on the ground of expediency and conciliation in matters indifferent and not involving compromise of principle, account for Paul’s prohibition here in the case of one in so prominent a sphere as a bishop or a deacon. Hence the stress that is laid in the context on the repute in which the candidate for orders is held among those over whom he is to preside (Tit_1:16). The Council of Laodicea and the apostolic canons discountenanced second marriages, especially in the case of candidates for ordination. Of course second marriage being lawful, the undesirableness of it holds good only under special circumstances. It is implied here also, that he who has a wife and virtuous family, is to be preferred to a bachelor; for he who is himself bound to discharge the domestic duties mentioned here, is likely to be more attractive to those who have similar ties, for he teaches them not only by precept, but also by example (1Ti_3:4, 1Ti_3:5). The Jews teach, a priest should be neither unmarried nor childless, lest he be unmerciful [Bengel]. So in the synagogue, “no one shall offer up prayer in public, unless he be married” [in Colbo, ch. 65; Vitringa, Synagogue and Temple].


An article written by Cooper Abrams:
The meaning of the phrase "husband of one wife" can only be determined when the whole of the New Testament teaching is consulted. The hermeneutical principle that is involved here is that we must interpret the word of God in the analogy of the faith meaning that all scripture is a unit or body of truth. All parts of the word of God are part of the whole and within the body of truth and there is no contradictions or conflicts within truth. All the parts of the word of God support the whole in perfect unity. With this in mind let us look at this passage in light what the New Testament teaches concerning marriage.

In light of the teaching of the New Testament this passage establishes several qualifications that must be met in order for one to serve as a pastor (bishop) or deacon:

1. He Must Be A Man. ...

2. He Must Not Be A Polygamist...

3. He Must Not Be Divorced.

The meaning of the phrase "husband of one wife" clears up the controversy of whether a pastor can be divorced or not. There is nothing mysterious about the Greek phrase which simply and literally means "one woman man."

In 1 Timothy 5:9 the same phrase is used in reference to a widow who has only been married once. There is no controversy of the interpretation of the phrase in this passage and there is no reason to give it a different meaning 1 Timothy 3:2. (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary of the Bible, Online Bible Millennium Edition, Winterbourne, Ontario, Canada, Ver. 1:2, March, 2001) The phrase in the normal use of the language means that a bishop must be the husband of only one women and is prohibiting a bishop or deacon from being divorced or remarried.

There are several New Testament principles which help us to understand that this is the correct interpretation. Divorce represents a failure in the home, so that even though a man may be forgiven for any sin involved, he remains permanently disqualified for leadership in the congregation (See verses 4-5; 1 Cor. 9:24-27). (Logos Bible Software, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Dallas: Dallas Theological Seminary, Ver. 2.0a, 1995)

The fifteenth qualification for a prospective bishops says, "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?" A man whose marriage failed certainly would be suspect of not ruling his house well.

We must understand that God is giving us the highest of standards for a man who would be Christ's "under shepherd" and pastor His congregation. Paul instructed in 1 Timothy 4:12, "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity." A man whose marriage fails regardless of who was at fault cannot present a proper example to other believers. He may be a godly man after his divorce but unfortunately the sigma of divorce will forever mark him and make his familial leadership abilities suspect and thereby disqualifying him for this responsibility.

We must understand that no one man is so important to God that He would set aside truth and righteous principles simply to use that man. The word of God applies equally to all and it is our acceptance of it and obedience to His truth that validates a person as qualified to serve the Lord. God's very nature makes it impossible for Him to bless error and put His approval on anything that is tainted or unpure.

The Bible always represents divorce as failure and presents it in a negative light. God hates divorce (Mal. 2:14-16). Although many condone divorce and remarriage my extensive studies cannot find any support in the Bible that God condones remarriage for divorced persons. God does allow separation under some situation for Christian, but not remarriage. (1 Cor. 7:1-17) But whether God allows divorce or not is not the point here.

Some reason that if it can be established that God will allow divorce and remarriage then a divorced man would technically and legally entitled to be a bishop. However, this is not sound reasoning and misses the point of God giving the qualifications of a pastor. We need to keep our focus on the subject being addressed by the passage and contextually the passage is addressing the minimum qualification of the highest position in a congregation that being the one who would "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28). God's pastor must be of the highest character as 1 Timothy 3:1-9 presents. The last stated qualification sums up the whole of fifteen previous stating he must be of good report of those both inside the church and outside in the community.

Conclusion: God is presenting the minimum qualifications that an individual or church should use in determining if a man is eligible to be considered for the position of a pastor or deacon. The normal grammatical use of the phrase and the analogy of the faith both clearly show this verse is saying God only calls men to be pastors and the man who practices polygamy or who is divorced is not qualified to be a pastor or deacon and subsequently is not called of God to that position. As God commended the "prophets" whom he had not sent, so these modern men and women should also be rebuked and counseled to turn from their sin (Jer. 23:21-22). God said to them, "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied"(Jer. 23:21).

Read the whole article here http://www.bible-truth.org/1Timothy3-2.html


There is also a good article on the link that Billiefan 2000 gave which I would like you to read, it is written by David Cloud.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/divorcedpastor.htm

[HeIsEnough]

I am not sure what you mean by my tradition. I am also not sure why you would want other scriptures?
I would like to put forward why I have come to this understanding and ask that you bear with me as I have much to learn still.
Please be aware that I do love Charles Stanley, and I take this as pertaining to all preachers.
If you disagree with me, I am OK with that. As I have said I am still learning, and if I have got it all wrong then please forgive me.

I say other scriptures because teachings are a whole, not in isolation. Paul's other teachings should be brought to bear here, not just taking the "husband of one wife" and running with it. Others do those sort of things, and I am not saying that you do. I will say that I am still learning as well, and I do not see that changing on this side of heaven. :D:

I also have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I certainly count on it from Baptists, thats for sure. :lol


Here goes.
I have chosen one commentary by Jamieson Fausset and Brown:

husband of one wife — confuting the celibacy of Rome’s priesthood. Though the Jews practiced polygamy, yet as he is writing as to a Gentile Church, and as polygamy was never allowed among even laymen in the Church, the ancient interpretation that the prohibition here is against polygamy in a candidate bishop is not correct. It must, therefore, mean that, though laymen might lawfully marry again, candidates for the episcopate or presbytery were better to have been married only once.


First off, I have no axe to grind, I am the husband of but one wife, and I am not, nor plan to be in an overseer. But a deacon is certainly a consideration, and has already been considered. :):

I'm not so sure about this commentaries logic or conclusions. Paul indeed does express his view on marriage in I Cor 7. His view was it is better for a man not to marry, because a married man has entanglements with the world, and the concerns of a wife. Whereas an unmarried man can devote his whole life to the Lord. Paul thought it better to not be married at all. In that, I must agree with Paul. But his view was a concession, not a command, as he indicated.

In the beginnings of the church, Paul was stepping into heavily pagan cultures, ones where sexual immorality was rampant. Considering all these teachings are to be held in light of the station we are in when we come to the Lord, I view them as more dynamic than static. What I mean is, we can all take the letter of the law, in this case "trustworthy sayings", and disqualify most. Don't forget, there are other qualifications which are given in I Timothy, not just marriage.

Many a pastor today who is on TV are bringing ill repute (respectable) into the church, and that I believe would make them unqualified as well. An overseer then, would be qualified where he has been since coming to the Lord, certainly with some years behind him to ensure his fidelity and prove out his qualifications. To take a different view would be nonsensical to me, since not all are pure from birth, and we could disqualify most by a strict legal view on these matters, despite whatever hubris others may bring up.


An article written by Cooper Abrams:
The meaning of the phrase "husband of one wife" can only be determined when the whole of the New Testament teaching is consulted. The hermeneutical principle that is involved here is that we must interpret the word of God in the analogy of the faith meaning that all scripture is a unit or body of truth. All parts of the word of God are part of the whole and within the body of truth and there is no contradictions or conflicts within truth. All the parts of the word of God support the whole in perfect unity. With this in mind let us look at this passage in light what the New Testament teaches concerning marriage.

In light of the teaching of the New Testament this passage establishes several qualifications that must be met in order for one to serve as a pastor (bishop) or deacon:

1. He Must Be A Man. ...

2. He Must Not Be A Polygamist...

3. He Must Not Be Divorced.

The meaning of the phrase "husband of one wife" clears up the controversy of whether a pastor can be divorced or not. There is nothing mysterious about the Greek phrase which simply and literally means "one woman man."


The sayings in question are certainly geared towards # 2, in my opinion. There are also other considerations which are not addressed in I Timothy. Primarily, if a wife serves a husband with divorce papers, does that truly disqualify him from being an overseer? Let's say he clearly did not want a divorce, and poured his life into reconcilliation to no avail? What righteous judgement would you give in this instance?

I cannot agree with the simplistic transposition to "one woman man." Because it does not take into consideration ones past, and when they came to the Lord. Nor the clear consolation of a believer having an unbelieving spouse who departs. Would this too cause an overseer to disqualify him from the ministry, if that unbelieving spouse leaves?

This particular scripture does not mention divorce, as I said. So to force divorce into this scripture, would take Paul's other teachings and confound them somewhat, in my opinion. And I am not attempting to force my own interpretaion here. But I am trying to show that it is not so simple to read into this what some would like to do.

~EDIT~

I will be off for two weeks or so CB, so I will not be able to respond further for a time. Don't y'all flame me too bad. :lol

[mrsppmrxky]

Wow, I am coming into this thread late. I read through all 5 pages before responding.

I agree with what Caligirl and Country Bumpkin have stated. (Not that I don't agree with some of the other statements here and there as well, but their's stuck out in my mind.

WE (collectively, not one person) the church have so adapted scripture to meet with what our society thinks, that we have stepped away from adhereing and not changing..........God's word is the same yesterday, today and forever. It isn't God has changed and okayed things that we do necessarily, but we have changed and made 'God more adaptable to our preceptions'.

Personally, I have over the years come to change my view of pastors and deacons......By that, I have known many because we moved a lot with my husband in the navy.....so I have seen short ones,tall ones, fat ones, thin ones, old ones, young ones and middle aged ones, white ones, black ones, and Hispanic ones. With that said, I have seen a wide variety.

I have come to the conclusion that we should not have pastors that have young children.........or deacons that have young children.

(I am sure that I will get flamed for that view, but please let me try to explain my view.)


If they have young children, then they are usually young.....

The young ones out of school do not have pastoring abilities. They have lots of head knowledge, but no time to 'rule' their own houses. Their leadership abilities have not been proven in how they 'rule their house'.

Their time is taken up with the ministry and their children are the ones that are basically raised by their mother only. Their father is called away from them when they need them because a pastor usually puts his 'church's needs' above his own family's needs.........(but really his children are 'his church' also.)

The children (most, not all) come to resent the pastor leaving and that is why they are many times rebellious and do things that lead them away from church. They do not respect their father because he was never there for them.

Is that saying that God can't and doesn't use young people? NO~! God can and does use them!!!

I honestly think that it would be better for these young men to be the SS teachers and other workers in the church until they are at a place in their lives to move into the office of bishop/deacon.

(I was a deacon's kid.....so I know some of the trials of being left, but not many because my father always held to God first, wife second, children third, the church fourth.)

As a deacon's kid, we spent a lot of time with the pastor's kids and believe me, some of them really hated the church and resented how their home lives were.

Our churches would be so much better off with men of God teaching in those positions instead of how some churches meet a new member of the church and offer them a teaching position when they join the church.

[mrsppmrxky]

Moses murdered someone before he led the Israelites out of Egypt.
Saul murdered many Christians before becoming an apostle and the greatest evangelist to the Gentiles
Peter denied Christ three times before becoming the rock. (and he was the only apostle that had the courage to even show his face)
Abraham slept with Hagar and fathered a child out of marriage, while married before concieving Issac.
David slept with Bethsheba but was restored.

Under the standards set by some on this thread would Saul have been able to carry out his mission as an apostle? Would all of these men have been removed from the Ministry?

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

In the cases stated above, Moses and Saul committed those things before their conversion.

Peter was a young Christian at that point and though he walked with Christ, the Holy Ghost had not come at Pentacost so he was not indwelt at that time.

Abraham walked with God, disobeyed God, and had to 'deal with the consequences of his sin for the rest of his life. In fact we are still dealing with the result of that sin to this day. (Abraham was a man of God, but was not a pastor of a congregation.)

David did sin and was restored to his relationship, but God did give judgement that David's kingdom would be divided and that his children would not be united in the kingdom. (His relationship was restored to great strength, but when we look at his children's lives, he wasn't so successful and they had horrible sins committed as a result of their falling into similiar situations.)


I am not without sin.......I am not accusing anyone of anything. I do hold to the standard that a pastor should step down if he is divorced.

Does that mean that I am against his preaching? NO! I think he can speak, teach, but not PASTOR a church. (There is a big difference between a pastor and a preacher.)



"manage his own family" - again, it seems to me he had his priorites straight, putting the Lord's work first. His wife probably knew that when they got married. A good pastor's wife, I think would accept that his first allegiance should be to God..

Yes, a good wife would know that a pastor or any man's first love and allegiance should be God. It doesn't mean that the church is to be first. God first, wife second, any children third and THEN his job (congregation).

[Benja32one]

I think this is a good point. A pastor's wife should also have responsibilities within the church. In every church I have ever attended, Mrs. Pastor held Bible studies, women's conferences, socials etc in support of her husband's calling. I think it's vital that both are on the same page spiritually when it comes to pastoring a church.
:rolleyes
Scripture for this, puhleeze!
:faint

[mrsppmrxky]

Benja,

I would think as his 'helpmate' the wife would have to meet certain obligations in leading the ladies of the church.

I would think is in Titus.......the elder women are to teach the younger to be modest, Godfearing, keepers of the home, to love their husbands and children' would be scripture that could back this position up.

[CountryBumpkin]

Many a pastor today who is on TV are bringing ill repute (respectable) into the church, and that I believe would make them unqualified as well. An overseer then, would be qualified where he has been since coming to the Lord, certainly with some years behind him to ensure his fidelity and prove out his qualifications. To take a different view would be nonsensical to me, since not all are pure from birth, and we could disqualify most by a strict legal view on these matters, despite whatever hubris others may bring up.






I agree with this. What they have done before they are saved does not count. It is what they do afterward, they are in a very responsible position and are to be an example.
I personally would find it very difficult to ask a pastor who is divorced while serving the congregation for advice on my marraige. It does not matter whether the wife was at fault or whether it was through neglect on the husband's part. If it was, for example, neglect, then how would he be able to advise a couple on that same issue if he was guilty of doing the same thing?

mrsppmrxky, thank you for your contribution and you have said it well.

:hug

[semperfidelis]

In the cases stated above, Moses and Saul committed those things before their conversion.

Peter was a young Christian at that point and though he walked with Christ, the Holy Ghost had not come at Pentacost so he was not indwelt at that time.

Abraham walked with God, disobeyed God, and had to 'deal with the consequences of his sin for the rest of his life. In fact we are still dealing with the result of that sin to this day. (Abraham was a man of God, but was not a pastor of a congregation.)

David did sin and was restored to his relationship, but God did give judgement that David's kingdom would be divided and that his children would not be united in the kingdom. (His relationship was restored to great strength, but when we look at his children's lives, he wasn't so successful and they had horrible sins committed as a result of their falling into similiar situations.)



I see alot of excuses with a slanted viewpoint here. No offense intended. I see alot of, well it happened before this and they were judged on that ect...

First you say Paul was not converted but then you say Peter was a young Christian. He absolutely was and I am trying to help those that "think" they are wise understand that people sin and make mistakes even when they are older Christians. It is a lifelong process. But as you pointed out the judgement was from God, not from the Church or people in the Church.

See here is the problem. The minute we start laying out guidelines for judgement and the "way things should be" we open ourselves up for judgement.

The next thing you know when everyone is under the miscroscope no one is worthy of carrying out anything in Gods kingdom. Generally you will find those that seem to be the "together Christians" do not fully have their life under the light for those to critique. If they did they also would have their feet to the flames.

We are all imperfect and in need of a savior. We all fall far short. Even those that consider themselves to be "together Christians" are the ones that are usually more messed up more than anyone simply because they are not aware of the fact that they also are broken and in need of Christ.

I love the scripture when Jesus dropped to the ground and starting writing the Pharisees trangressions in the dirt. They tucked tail and dissapeared. As it would be with us. Everyone of us.

Probably even after we became saved. If you do not believe that then you might have an issue.

Once again, no offense.


I am not without sin.......I am not accusing anyone of anything. I do hold to the standard that a pastor should step down if he is divorced.

Does that mean that I am against his preaching? NO! I think he can speak, teach, but not PASTOR a church. (There is a big difference between a pastor and a preacher.)


I think this is Gods decision. Obviously if God says otherwise your trumped here. Like it or not. You can either accept it or not, either way Gods way is the only way.

People could have been setting up for guidelines after Peters denial but it would not have made one bit of difference what they said. Jesus plan for Peters life was paramount and overrides all other human imput, even from those who think they are wise.

As it is here. Men do not make the rules. God does. Men just carry them out through his teachings and through the Holy Spirit.

Now, having said all that. If Gods word states that someone should step down then they should step down. ???? This has yet to be seen.

My point is this, if God is telling this man to repent and go on then he should follow Gods will. Whether we accept it or not. He is not working for our acceptance.

I am not going soft here. I think we should walk the straight and narrow. But, I also think that getting into judgement and consequences is dangerous ground for broken sinners that have absolutely nothing to offer that can do nothing more than fall to our knees and accept the gift of forgiveness that we are all so much in need of.

Its like a person with a mental illness calling people Crazy.