When did the church begin?

[Benja32one]

Let'er rip you replacement people!
Did it begin in the O.T.? Did it begin with the incarnation, begin with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Did it begin at Pentecost? Or was it in around 300 AD, when Constantine made it the state church?

[abkn]

Replacement people? What are you talking about?

I say the first CHRISTIAN church were in peoples homes. Paul started some organized churches in Corinth, Thesoloniaca, Israel, Galatia. Way before denominations like the RCC or lutherns new there was a G-d.

[Benja32one]

Replacement people? What are you talking about?

I say the first CHRISTIAN church were in peoples homes. Paul started some organized churches in Corinth, Thesoloniaca, Israel, Galatia. Way before denominations like the RCC or lutherns new there was a G-d.
:wave
I tagged it that way simply because there are those who believe the church began in the O.T., and are preaching such today in 'evangelical reformed' pulpits.
:nod

[Timothy]

Benja: I'm going to alter your question to be more specific - to whom was the church revealed? Being even more specific, I am defining the church as the body of Christ, where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. For example:

I Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The answer is that it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. It is through Paul that we learn about the falling of the "middle wall of partition."

[littleone]

Here is the beginning of the Church (corporate) which is the body of Christ both Jew and Gentile believers in J'shua HaMashiach Jesus the Messiah.

Acts 1:1-14 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 2:1-41 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

[abkn]

:wave
I tagged it that way simply because there are those who believe the church began in the O.T., and are preaching such today in 'evangelical reformed' pulpits.
:nod


I've never heard of this before! There were synagogs in the OT, but no Christian churches of course....

[Timothy]

The traditional view of Christendom is that the present dispensation began in Acts 2. I too, thought this, as it was what "I was taught." When I was presented an alternate viewpoint ("there's an alternative viewpoint?"), I genuinely listened and after some careful study on my own, I realized that the present "dispensation of grace" (Ephesians 3:2) did not begin in Acts 2, but with the Apostle Paul.

I believe the book of Acts is the account of the FALL OF ISRAEL, not a history of the founding of the church. It shows how Israel is excuseless, stumbled, and fell. Comparing the beginning and the end of Acts shows that a huge change took place:

Acts 1:6 Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

It far too common of an error that the revelation in Paul's epistles are "read" back "into" earlier books. It is assumed they had the same knowledge and information that was LATER revealed to the Apostle Paul. The distinctiveness of Paul's Apostleship becomes lost and goes unrecognized. The core of Paul's apostleship concerns the "mystery" which was revealed to him, which includes the body of Christ, and was "kept secret since the world began." (Romans 16:25, Ephesians 3:2-6, etc.).

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost actually proves that the present dispensation and the body of Christ did not begin in Acts 2.

Acts 2:16-18 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

It is clear that the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 ("this is that") was actually prophetic - it was no secret or mystery. Prophecy concerns Israel and the prophetic kingdom. There is nothing prophetic about the body of Christ. Acts 3:21 says that what was happening was "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." The prophetic program was still in place. Peter was quoting from Joel and says "this is that" which was spoken by Joel and clearly he indicated it concern the "last days."

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

We NOW know that those weren't the last days, as we are here today. So what happened? The prophetic program and Joel's prophecy was interrupted. According to Joel's prophecy, after the spirit is poured out, the next step in the prophecy is the coming of the day of the Lord.

Joel 2:31 & Acts 2:19-20 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

That part of the prophecy was never fulfilled. After the stoning of Stephen, God interrupted the prophetic program, saved Paul on the road to Damascus, and ushered in the dispensation of grace. It was to Paul that Christ revealed the "mystery kept secret since the world began." The dispensation of grace closes with the rapture, and the prophetic program will once again resume, and Israel will be saved (Romans 11).

Whereas Acts 2 concerns "this is that" which was "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," the mystery revealed to Paul concerns that which was "kept secret since the world began."

ACTS 2
1 - Prophecy
2 - "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began"
3 - "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"

PAUL
1 - Mystery
2 - "kept secret since the world began"
3 - "How that by revelation he made known unto me [Paul] the mystery"

Also of further interest is the Apostle Paul himself - he was both a Hebrew and a Roman. Paul, as the one apostle for the dispensation of grace, truly represents the body of Christ by being both Roman and a Hebrew.

[guitarrman45]

Maybe it started on the day of pentecost. When the Holy Spirit came like a mighty rushing wind. The Apostles were praying for 3 days. The room was full of people. And Peter full of the Holy Ghost stood up and started preaching.

[Harley]

...Or was it in around 300 AD, when Constantine made it the state church?
Technically, Constantine did not make Christianity the State religion. In A.D. 313 he issued a decree that allowed the free exercise of Christianity. It became the State church in the late Fourth Century under... Oh, I forget. But I'm being admittedly picky.

[BHiles]

Why Jesus Started Churches and Not a Church

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church. Hebrews 12:22, 23a

There is a very interesting play on words in this passage. There are two different words used, the word assembly which in the Greek is the word paneguris. meaning any kind of assembly, and the word church which in the Greek is ekklesia, meaning a called-out assembly.

I have made it very clear in previous chapters that the word church is the word ekklesia, and that is a called-out assembly. There is no church now other than the local church. Over and over again, in the Bible, it talks about the churches. Jesus did not start a church, He started churches. When He said, upon this rock I will build my church, in Matthew 16:18, He was referring to the church at Jerusalem.

There will be a day when all believers will be a church, but not now. All believers have not yet become a called-out assembly. There has never been a time in history when all Christians assembled, consequently there is no way that all believers could be called a church.

Mr. Scofield troubles me when he refers to two churches, but even more when he implies that the local church is not the true church! The true church is the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, or any

local assembly of called-out believers. There will be a day when believers will become a church. That is when all believers a assembled at the rapture. The word rapture simply means a calling out or a snatching away. When the rapture takes place, all believe will be called out into the air and will become the church.

I want to make an issue about something. We often hear people use the term the rapture of the church. There will not be a rapture the church except when we are all raptured and form a church in the sky. Most often it is used referring to the false idea that all believe already form the church, and that the rapture will be the church that already exists. That is not scriptural.

Ephesians 5 speaks of a glorious church without spot and wrinkle holy and sanctified. No matter how great a church may be, there is n church that qualifies to be described in this fashion. First Baptist Church in Hammond is not a holy church without a spot or wrinkle. We have some good people, but none of them is perfect. We will not be without spot or wrinkle until we are raptured and receive our glorified body Then we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. When it talks about Jesus presenting to Himself a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle holy and sanctified, it is referring to the time when all believers are called up in the air and given a glorified body. Then we will no longer have sin in our bodies, and we will be just like Jesus. At that time we will be glorious church, without a spot or wrinkle, holy and sanctified.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all ~e one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. Hebrews 2:11 & 12

The Bible says there will come a time when all believers will become a church, and in our glorified bodies will come back to the earth. Jesus said, I will sing in the midst of the church. Won't it be wonderful to hear Jesus sing? I believe that in the millennium Jesus will take the Lord supper with us because in the millennium all believers will be assembled. We will assemble in the sky and become a church, but we will live all over the world, during the millennium. It will not be any problem for us to assemble because we will have glorified bodies.

I was flying over a little town in Idaho. I looked down and saw a little airport. They have a computer in that little airport, and in a matter of seconds they can get the schedule of anybody, on any flight, in the world. I looked down and saw all of the houses. Almost every house down there had a television set and the people could see a picture of something happening on the other side of the world. That is man s technology.

I wonder how it will be when we have our glorified bodies. If Jesus decides to call a church meeting or gathering, all He will need to do is say it, and we will all be there in a matter of seconds. We will come from China, Africa and all over the world in just a matter of a few seconds. All believers will not become a church until that time.

Let me explain the philosophy behind the fact that Jesus has local churches and not one great church of all believers. God wants there to be a wall between us in every single human relationship. There needs to be some kind of a wall between every single human relationship.

Jesus started the local New Testament churches, and each church is autonomous and indigenous. No church has the right to tell another church what to do. The devil's most effective idea is union and unity, and that sounds good. God does not want churches uniting. God is a separation of authority God. God is a state's rights God. One of the saddest things in America is that the Federal Government is taking over things that the states ought to be running. God does not want that. -Dr. Jack Hyles

[blitzkreig]

littleone I think you ... for some reason ... you ... might actually be able to follow what Timothy is saying here ... read very carefully and thoughtfully ... http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=2474310#post2474310


.

[Benja32one]

Why Jesus Started Churches and Not a Church

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church. Hebrews 12:22, 23a

There is a very interesting play on words in this passage. There are two different words used, the word assembly which in the Greek is the word paneguris. meaning any kind of assembly, and the word church which in the Greek is ekklesia, meaning a called-out assembly.

I have made it very clear in previous chapters that the word church is the word ekklesia, and that is a called-out assembly. There is no church now other than the local church. Over and over again, in the Bible, it talks about the churches. Jesus did not start a church, He started churches. When He said, upon this rock I will build my church, in Matthew 16:18, He was referring to the church at Jerusalem.

There will be a day when all believers will be a church, but not now. All believers have not yet become a called-out assembly. There has never been a time in history when all Christians assembled, consequently there is no way that all believers could be called a church.

Mr. Scofield troubles me when he refers to two churches, but even more when he implies that the local church is not the true church! The true church is the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, or any

local assembly of called-out believers. There will be a day when believers will become a church. That is when all believers a assembled at the rapture. The word rapture simply means a calling out or a snatching away. When the rapture takes place, all believe will be called out into the air and will become the church.

I want to make an issue about something. We often hear people use the term the rapture of the church. There will not be a rapture the church except when we are all raptured and form a church in the sky. Most often it is used referring to the false idea that all believe already form the church, and that the rapture will be the church that already exists. That is not scriptural.

Ephesians 5 speaks of a glorious church without spot and wrinkle holy and sanctified. No matter how great a church may be, there is n church that qualifies to be described in this fashion. First Baptist Church in Hammond is not a holy church without a spot or wrinkle. We have some good people, but none of them is perfect. We will not be without spot or wrinkle until we are raptured and receive our glorified body Then we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. When it talks about Jesus presenting to Himself a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle holy and sanctified, it is referring to the time when all believers are called up in the air and given a glorified body. Then we will no longer have sin in our bodies, and we will be just like Jesus. At that time we will be glorious church, without a spot or wrinkle, holy and sanctified.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all ~e one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. Hebrews 2:11 & 12

The Bible says there will come a time when all believers will become a church, and in our glorified bodies will come back to the earth. Jesus said, I will sing in the midst of the church. Won't it be wonderful to hear Jesus sing? I believe that in the millennium Jesus will take the Lord supper with us because in the millennium all believers will be assembled. We will assemble in the sky and become a church, but we will live all over the world, during the millennium. It will not be any problem for us to assemble because we will have glorified bodies.

I was flying over a little town in Idaho. I looked down and saw a little airport. They have a computer in that little airport, and in a matter of seconds they can get the schedule of anybody, on any flight, in the world. I looked down and saw all of the houses. Almost every house down there had a television set and the people could see a picture of something happening on the other side of the world. That is man s technology.

I wonder how it will be when we have our glorified bodies. If Jesus decides to call a church meeting or gathering, all He will need to do is say it, and we will all be there in a matter of seconds. We will come from China, Africa and all over the world in just a matter of a few seconds. All believers will not become a church until that time.

Let me explain the philosophy behind the fact that Jesus has local churches and not one great church of all believers. God wants there to be a wall between us in every single human relationship. There needs to be some kind of a wall between every single human relationship.

Jesus started the local New Testament churches, and each church is autonomous and indigenous. No church has the right to tell another church what to do. The devil's most effective idea is union and unity, and that sounds good. God does not want churches uniting. God is a separation of authority God. God is a state's rights God. One of the saddest things in America is that the Federal Government is taking over things that the states ought to be running. God does not want that. -Dr. Jack Hyles

:wave
Since your quote above is from JACK HYLES.....DID HE REALLY CLAIM THAT ON MAY 3, 1998 HIS CHURCH BAPTISED MORE PEOPLE THAN AT PENTECOST?
:redface :nod

[Benja32one]

Benja: I'm going to alter your question to be more specific - to whom was the church revealed? Being even more specific, I am defining the church as the body of Christ, where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. For example:

I Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The answer is that it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. It is through Paul that we learn about the falling of the "middle wall of partition."
:wave :thumb
I agree, with one caveat....The Holy Spirit baptised the believers into one body at Pentecost and is continuing that work with every addition of a new believer throughout the age of grace.
:nod

[Benja32one]

:thumb
I basically agree with your take...later on when I have more time I WILL POST MY REASONS FOR BELIEVING THE CHURCH BEGAN AT PENTECOST.
:nod

[Benja32one]

The traditional view of Christendom is that the present dispensation began in Acts 2. I too, thought this, as it was what "I was taught." When I was presented an alternate viewpoint ("there's an alternative viewpoint?"), I genuinely listened and after some careful study on my own, I realized that the present "dispensation of grace" (Ephesians 3:2) did not begin in Acts 2, but with the Apostle Paul.

I believe the book of Acts is the account of the FALL OF ISRAEL, not a history of the founding of the church. It shows how Israel is excuseless, stumbled, and fell. Comparing the beginning and the end of Acts shows that a huge change took place:

Acts 1:6 Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

It far too common of an error that the revelation in Paul's epistles are "read" back "into" earlier books. It is assumed they had the same knowledge and information that was LATER revealed to the Apostle Paul. The distinctiveness of Paul's Apostleship becomes lost and goes unrecognized. The core of Paul's apostleship concerns the "mystery" which was revealed to him, which includes the body of Christ, and was "kept secret since the world began." (Romans 16:25, Ephesians 3:2-6, etc.).

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost actually proves that the present dispensation and the body of Christ did not begin in Acts 2.

Acts 2:16-18 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

It is clear that the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 ("this is that") was actually prophetic - it was no secret or mystery. Prophecy concerns Israel and the prophetic kingdom. There is nothing prophetic about the body of Christ. Acts 3:21 says that what was happening was "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." The prophetic program was still in place. Peter was quoting from Joel and says "this is that" which was spoken by Joel and clearly he indicated it concern the "last days."

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

We NOW know that those weren't the last days, as we are here today. So what happened? The prophetic program and Joel's prophecy was interrupted. According to Joel's prophecy, after the spirit is poured out, the next step in the prophecy is the coming of the day of the Lord.

Joel 2:31 & Acts 2:19-20 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

That part of the prophecy was never fulfilled. After the stoning of Stephen, God interrupted the prophetic program, saved Paul on the road to Damascus, and ushered in the dispensation of grace. It was to Paul that Christ revealed the "mystery kept secret since the world began." The dispensation of grace closes with the rapture, and the prophetic program will once again resume, and Israel will be saved (Romans 11).

Whereas Acts 2 concerns "this is that" which was "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," the mystery revealed to Paul concerns that which was "kept secret since the world began."

ACTS 2
1 - Prophecy
2 - "spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began"
3 - "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"

PAUL
1 - Mystery
2 - "kept secret since the world began"
3 - "How that by revelation he made known unto me [Paul] the mystery"

Also of further interest is the Apostle Paul himself - he was both a Hebrew and a Roman. Paul, as the one apostle for the dispensation of grace, truly represents the body of Christ by being both Roman and a Hebrew.
:wave
Timothy....While I agree that Paul DEVELOPED the doctrine, that was not my question....for example when the Holy Spirit baptised believers into the Body at Pentecost, is that the Body which is being spoken of in 1 Cor 12.13? What do you think? LATER ON IN THIS THREAD I WILL POST MY REASONS FOR BELIEVING THE CHURCH BEGAN AT PENTECOST.
:nod

[Benja32one]

Maybe it started on the day of pentecost. When the Holy Spirit came like a mighty rushing wind. The Apostles were praying for 3 days. The room was full of people. And Peter full of the Holy Ghost stood up and started preaching.
:thumb
LATER ON I WILL STATE MY REASONS WHY I THINK IT BEGAN ON PENTECOST. Thanks.
:wave

[Benja32one]

I've never heard of this before! There were synagogs in the OT, but no Christian churches of course....
:wave :wave
My question concerns the Body of Christ.
:nod

[Benja32one]

Technically, Constantine did not make Christianity the State religion. In A.D. 313 he issued a decree that allowed the free exercise of Christianity. It became the State church in the late Fourth Century under... Oh, I forget. But I'm being admittedly picky.
:wave
A little late kick-starting your bike. I think it was at Pentecost, I will state all my reasons this weekend!
Thanks.
:nod

[Benja32one]

littleone I think you ... for some reason ... you ... might actually be able to follow what Timothy is saying here ... read very carefully and thoughtfully ... http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=2474310#post2474310


.

:wave
GLAD TO HAVE YOU ALONG FOR THE RIDE! (In Harley's jargon)
:thumb

[BHiles]

:wave
Since your quote above is from JACK HYLES.....DID HE REALLY CLAIM THAT ON MAY 3, 1998 HIS CHURCH BAPTISED MORE PEOPLE THAN AT PENTECOST?
:redface :nod

I was there and there were more people baptized on that day than 3,000. It however was not from a preaching service. It was from people going out throughout the week and knocking on doors ad leading people to Jesus. We are not an evangelistic church. We are a soulwinning one. We believe that while we give an alter call it is mainly for believers to set their hearts right and an opportunity for those who have been born-again throughout the week to make a public profession/baptism. Most all are saved by the time they hit the door of the church. It helps cut down purely emotional decisions from an alter call.

[Patty T]

The very first time "church" is mentioned is in Matthew 16:18 by Jesus:

I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.


Greek word for "church" is: ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah}

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven


I am inclined to agree that the "church" began at Pentecost.

[semperfidelis]

:thumb
LATER ON I WILL STATE MY REASONS WHY I THINK IT BEGAN ON PENTECOST. Thanks.
:wave

Benja, you are correct that the Church began when the Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost. This is in line with the mission of the Church to take our the great commission in Matthew 28 to the ends of the earth.

Now, having said that the word Church is simply used for an organization of believers and was also referenced in the Old Testament. For arguments sake some people could say that a Church existed prior to Pentecost (organization of believers).

The Church as we know it today is also marked by the period of time that we are in. We are currently in a gap of time that was unseen by the Old Testament prophets referred to as the Church Age. You can call it whatever you want but it is a time that began with the crucifixion of Jesus and Pentecost and extends salvation to the Gentiles and Jews that choose to believe for an unkown period of time. Once this time is over I believe the Church as we know it today (believers in Christ) will be removed from the earth in the rapture and the tribulation period will begin.

So anyone can argue over the word "Church" but no one can argue the fact that Salvation was extended out to the Gentiles and Israel was broken off from the Olive Tree and we are in the period that was unseen by the Old Testament Prophets.

Call it what you want, that is what it is. I call it the Church Age.

[JLM-223]

Benja32one,

You asked when the Church began. I would answer by saying I think it all depends on how you define “church”. In Psalm 22:22, we read:
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
You might be interested to know (if you don’t already) that the Septuagint LXX (the Greek translation of the OT) uses the term “ekklesia” for “congregation”, from which we get the term “church”. In fact, this very verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:12!

It is true that the meaning of “church” has always referred to the congregation of God’s elect, but it is its mission that has changed over the centuries, and is now used to describe the Body of Christ, as you pointed out. In Ephesians 3:14-21, we read:

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
So the bottom line is, the church has been around since OT times and always will be, but its mission has changed. Before the first coming of Christ, its mission was to unite God’s elect into a congregation in order to encourage each other to uphold God’s commandments. Since the first coming of Christ, however, its mission has been to unite believers as the Body of Christ and proclaim the Gospel to a lost world. It is this mission that will remain in effect until His second coming when He establishes His kingdom here on earth and will be physically in our midst for eternity!

[BHiles]

The question more defined is "when did the New Testament Church start". We know that Israel was called the Church in the wilderness. Acts 7:38

[Benja32one]

The question more defined is "when did the New Testament Church start". We know that Israel was called the Church in the wilderness. Acts 7:38

THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH BEGAN WITH THE DESCENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST: For these reasons....

[/LEFT]1. There could be no church in the world until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, for her very existence depends on His finished work and purified by His blood.
2. There could be no church until Christ arose from the dead to provide her with resurrection life.
3. There could be no church until Christ ascended on high to become the Head of the Body of Christ.
4. There could be no church until the descent of the Holy Spirit, as she is the temple for God through the habitation of the Spirit.

[COLOR=Red]IF YOU THINK THE 'CHURCH' IS IN THE O.T......That is that these conditions existed before Pentecost, the scriptures declare that these conditions obtained AFTER Pentecost. (John 14.17) A church without the finished work of Christ on which to stand; without resurrection position or life; a church which is a NEW HUMANITY, but lacking a FEDERAL HEAD and a church without Pentecost with all it contributes, is only a figment of theological fancy, and extraneous to the N.T........................................Culled from Lewis Sperry Chafer's
"Systematic Theology"
Pps. 44-45

[Benja32one]

Benja32one,

You asked when the Church began. I would answer by saying I think it all depends on how you define “church”. In Psalm 22:22, we read:

You might be interested to know (if you don’t already) that the Septuagint LXX (the Greek translation of the OT) uses the term “ekklesia” for “congregation”, from which we get the term “church”. In fact, this very verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:12!

It is true that the meaning of “church” has always referred to the congregation of God’s elect, but it is its mission that has changed over the centuries, and is now used to describe the Body of Christ, as you pointed out. In Ephesians 3:14-21, we read:


So the bottom line is, the church has been around since OT times and always will be, but its mission has changed. Before the first coming of Christ, its mission was to unite God’s elect into a congregation in order to encourage each other to uphold God’s commandments. Since the first coming of Christ, however, its mission has been to unite believers as the Body of Christ and proclaim the Gospel to a lost world. It is this mission that will remain in effect until His second coming when He establishes His kingdom here on earth and will be physically in our midst for eternity!


:wave
I believe Psalm 22.22 refers to post resurrection appearances of Christ and
His declaring His name in the midst of His brethren, (John 20.17) also to the saints in heaven, as I believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5.8)
:thumb :nod

[matheteou]

...Culled from Lewis Sperry Chafer's
"Systematic Theology"
Pps. 44-45That would be volume 4?

[blitzkreig]

There are two points being discussed which is confusing the thread. When did the Body of Christ begin? and When was that doctrine revealed?

Second one first. When was that doctrine revealed?

It is clear that the Kingdom Gospel prevailed throughout the ministry of Jesus and up to the foot of the cross. It is clear that Peter continued to preach that message for quite some time. It is also clear that as late as Acts 10 Peter had no motivation to minister to Gentiles and it came as quite a surprise to him that Cornelius was even capable of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul received direct revelation from the Risen Glorified Lord Jesus and Paul makes quite point of explaining his Gospel came from no man (meaning the Apostles). Paul's revelation didn't have anything to do with the Kingdom as that had been rejected by Israel years before. Paul was revealed a Mystery not known by the prophets but NOW made known that Jews and Gentiles would be established in one Body. Paul became that Apostle to the Gentiles.

Now the first one ... When did the Body of Christ begin?

I have heard it argued as late as Acts 28 and I have heard it as early as Genesis. The replacement/covenant folks are simply wrong tossing out so much Scripture to make their case and so I wouldn't spend much time refuting their nonsense.

Even though the doctrine came to Paul it certainly caught fire and the 12 Apostles would have come to the knowledge of that Grace before their deaths. Only James is questionable as he was martyred very early.

But on the facts of Scripture alone it looks like the 12 Apostles were promised a number of things which would only be possible if they are a part of the Kingdom literally sitting on 12 thrones and not the Body. On that basis it appears to me that they may have a sort of "dualism" in their citizenship. The promises to those in the Old Testament and those to the Body of Christ are not the same. They are even resurrected at different times. But I digress ...

When it started is certainly not as relevant as to when it was revealed. Because it is the "revealed" question that we use to interpret what they were writing (context) of their contributions to Scriptures.

Which is the whole point of asking the question in the first place ...

.

[Benja32one]

That would be volume 4?
:nod
Another LSC fan?...yes, Vol. IV, pages 44-45.
:thumb

[Benja32one]

There are two points being discussed which is confusing the thread. When did the Body of Christ begin? and When was that doctrine revealed?

Second one first. When was that doctrine revealed?

It is clear that the Kingdom Gospel prevailed throughout the ministry of Jesus and up to the foot of the cross. It is clear that Peter continued to preach that message for quite some time. It is also clear that as late as Acts 10 Peter had no motivation to minister to Gentiles and it came as quite a surprise to him that Cornelius was even capable of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul received direct revelation from the Risen Glorified Lord Jesus and Paul makes quite point of explaining his Gospel came from no man (meaning the Apostles). Paul's revelation didn't have anything to do with the Kingdom as that had been rejected by Israel years before. Paul was revealed a Mystery not known by the prophets but NOW made known that Jews and Gentiles would be established in one Body. Paul became that Apostle to the Gentiles.

Now the first one ... When did the Body of Christ begin?

I have heard it argued as late as Acts 28 and I have heard it as early as Genesis. The replacement/covenant folks are simply wrong tossing out so much Scripture to make their case and so I wouldn't spend much time refuting their nonsense.

Even though the doctrine came to Paul it certainly caught fire and the 12 Apostles would have come to the knowledge of that Grace before their deaths. Only James is questionable as he was martyred very early.

But on the facts of Scripture alone it looks like the 12 Apostles were promised a number of things which would only be possible if they are a part of the Kingdom literally sitting on 12 thrones and not the Body. On that basis it appears to me that they may have a sort of "dualism" in their citizenship. The promises to those in the Old Testament and those to the Body of Christ are not the same. They are even resurrected at different times. But I digress ...

When it started is certainly not as relevant as to when it was revealed. Because it is the "revealed" question that we use to interpret what they were writing (context) of their contributions to Scriptures.

Which is the whole point of asking the question in the first place ...

.
Thanks for your input.
I did not get into the revelation of the mystery of the one Body of Jews and Gentiles, for just the reason you stated. I wanted to get opinions first.
Beside that fact, there is the other principle..one who does not understand the 'new creation' can never plumb the depths of Paul's writings. IMHO
ROLL ON, BROTHER!
:nod :thumb

[HillbillyWilli]

if each of us is a church, is it fair to say the church started at creation?

[Benja32one]

if each of us is a church, is it fair to say the church started at creation?
:wave
It is not possible because Jesus used the future tense in Matthew 16.18, when he said "....I will build My church." The church is bought with the blood of Jesus, therefore, could not have begun before the cross. IMO
:nod