Crucifixion Site

[prairiedog]

I heard recently that some experts believe that Christ's Crucifixion took place on the Mount of Olives.

I always thought it took place on the skull-shaped hill outside Jerusalem known as Golgotha during Christ's time. Don't know what it's called in modern times.

[antsinmypants]

One thing is for sure, it was near the Mt of olives, as the centurion was able to see the veil tear in the Holy Place. You cannot do that from the back side of the temple on the other side of the city!

[prairiedog]

Thanks Ants.

I didn't know that. Guess I don't know my Bible as well as I should. :redface

[Old 33]

It was on Golgotha.

But remember, Jesus was at the Mount of Olives earlier in the evening, after the Last Supper.

Matthew 26:26-30 (NIV)
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

30When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

[Hootmon]

http://www.icej.org/cgi-local/view.cgi?type=specials&artid=2002/10/28/279970520

[antsinmypants]

Here are some facts people don't know.

Golgatha, where the RCC and most congregations accept the place is, would not allow a "Bird's eye view" of the Holy place, but the back side of the Temple.

However, according to tradition, the "Place of the skull" Is the place where Adam was buried on the Mt of Olives (Notice a theme : first and last adam) Which not only allows the view of the Holy Place, but also allows the view of Y'shua on the tree, directly across from the altar, therefore making it appear from the Holy Place where YHVH's glory would be--- that Y'shua is the sacrifice.

:wave

[antsinmypants]

i have a picture i can scan in @ home.

[HeIsEnough]

Here are some facts people don't know.


Exactly what causes you to believe the Centurion 'needed' a 'birds eye view' of the Holy place, enough to exclaim it as factual. In the scriptures of course, not rabbinical tradition.

[antsinmypants]

The fact presented:

The centurion saw the Holy Place. Where they place Golgatha traditionally, is on the opposite side, and allows one to see only the back side of the Temple, and no Holy Place.

A little geography and scripture goes a long way. I'm not arguing it. Leave it at that.

[HeIsEnough]

The centurion saw the Holy Place.

No need to get testy now......

Ummm, ya. That was the fact I wanted to see 'presented' a little more clearly, with the scriptures please. Luke does not state this happened. Or, he does not say it in a clear manner. Or, my memory is failing me, which would not be the first time.........so, show me the interpretation please....is that too much to ask? :confused

[Ladybug]

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

[HeIsEnough]

Thank you LB, but my questions still remain. I can view this in different ways, not necessarily that those who were standing in front of the cross could see (actively) the curtain being torn.

[Hootmon]

Yeah. The 'Now when' in verse 54 would seem to indicate a shift in focus.

[Old 33]

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Thanks for posting the Scripture.

I don't think the writer of Matthew interviewed the centurion and got an account of exactly what he saw and didn't see before making his statement. So I'm not sure this is intended to be read as a factual account of what the centurian personally saw with his own eyes, but rather as an account of the centurion's reaction to the chaos unfolding around him.

There's an earthquake, there are dead people coming up out of the ground and walking around the city, the Temple is in chaos...that, I think, is what the centurion is reacting to, not necessarily that he personally saw the veil torn in two.

Look at verse 53: "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." How is the centurion, in his post near the cross, expected to be able to see the people who have come out of their graves and traveled into the city and appeared to people. Does this passage imply that he personally saw all of the dead people presenting themselves to the people of the city, that he was somehow able to see through buildings to see this?

I think that this passage is meant to convey that the chaos of the moment was correctly interpreted by the centurion as a series of acts of God, and that the centurion was moved by those acts and accepted the truth. I don't think the passage was intended to be a geography clue for later generations, and that the whole thing fails if the centurion can't be in a place to personally watch the veil be torn in two.

[blitzkreig]

Thanks for posting the Scripture.

I don't think the writer of Matthew interviewed the centurion and got an account of exactly what he saw and didn't see before making his statement. So I'm not sure this is intended to be read as a factual account of what the centurian personally saw with his own eyes, but rather as an account of the centurion's reaction to the chaos unfolding around him.

There's an earthquake, there are dead people coming up out of the ground and walking around the city, the Temple is in chaos...that, I think, is what the centurion is reacting to, not necessarily that he personally saw the veil torn in two.

Look at verse 53: "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." How is the centurion, in his post near the cross, expected to be able to see the people who have come out of their graves and traveled into the city and appeared to people. Does this passage imply that he personally saw all of the dead people presenting themselves to the people of the city, that he was somehow able to see through buildings to see this?

I think that this passage is meant to convey that the chaos of the moment was correctly interpreted by the centurion as a series of acts of God, and that the centurion was moved by those acts and accepted the truth. I don't think the passage was intended to be a geography clue for later generations, and that the whole thing fails if the centurion can't be in a place to personally watch the veil be torn in two. Le'me guess what you do for a living ... :B:


;):

[Old 33]

Le'me guess what you do for a living ... :B:


;):
Tour guide.

[greatestislove]

Tour guide.


okay - i nearly had to clean up the floor after that one :pound

[antsinmypants]

I'm gonna apologize for this image, because I had to try and put it together from two pages in a book..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/mishkan-temple/untitled.jpg

Here are the reasons why the traditionally held view cannot be held as truth, nor correct:

1. Outside the camp, has to be within a Sabbath Day's journey because one could be unclean on the sabbath, and even then it is a good mitzvah to help someone be cleansed on the Sabbath. To cleanse someone from ceremonial uncleanness- you need a red heifer. Y'shua-- says he is the Aleph and Tav, the Alpha and Omega-- the First and Last. What we don't understand without Hebrew and Greek- is that the symbolism of Aleph/Alpha is the Red Heifer... (Numbers 19)
2. The Pascal Lamb/Final Sin Sacrifice must be an unblemished lamb within a certain year of life. (Exodus 12, 24; Leviticus 23; Numbers 9, 28; Deuteronomy 16)
3. The traditionally held view holds that Y'shua was well over a Sabbath day's journey away from where he would go.
4. The Traditionally held Hebraic understanding has Y'shua in the right place, the right time - both Rabbinically and Scripturally, considering that Y'shua was to be led out like unto the Yom Kippur sacrifice by an unclean man. Y'shua's sacrifice is an amalgamation of three sacrifices in one: Yom Kippur, Red Heifer, Pascal Lamb. Unblemished, Unleavened, 33 years old (Heifer was to be 3 years old, Lamb was to be 1 year old and 14 days. The Connection is that he was ordained as High Preist 3 years earlier.. and signifying his place as a high preist after being ordained, ready to serve in the Temple- per the proscribed rules in Numbers 4, Lev 21. Not to mention accoring to the Talmud, one cannot serve as High Priest until they have trained under the current HP (their father/cousin/brother) for three years... The connection here is that the Readings the Torah/Prophets is a Triennial Cycle at this point... and He would be a well equipped man to serve after hearing all of scripture read and seeing it applied.)
5. Y'shua is the living Torah- and to be these sacrifices he must also follow another proscribed sacrificial picture- Abraham and Isaac. He carried his own wood, and He was the lamb. Notice- Isaac was also 33!
6. He had to be "on the altar" the view from the Holy Place to where He was on the wood was in the direct line of the offered Pascal Lamb- at the same time that lamb was killed; He died, on the tree.. and was seen as a literal lamb and literal sacrifice on the true altar in the Temple, and he was on Mt Moriah (just as the temple complex) ... just as Isaac was to be-- but the Ram was instead sacrificed.
7. Again, the back side of the temple complex, not the Holy place would be seen from the traditionally accepted view.
8. It is traditionally accepted in Hebrew/Aramaic and even the Hellenist traditons and early Believer's understanding that "The place of the skull" was where Adam was buried after the flood, at Moriah. This is a picture of the first and last Adam- not to mention-- that the burial was to be at/near the same place. Spiritual and physical reasons for this would be the Signs that must be seen for a Hebrew to Believe in Him.

FYI, A sabbath-day’s journey :
[John Gill] As far as might be lawfully traveled by a Jew on the Sabbath. This was 2,000 paces or cubits, or seven furlongs and a half - not quite one mile. See the notes On Mat_24:20. The distance of a lawful journey on the Sabbath was not fixed by the laws of Moses, but the Jewish teachers had fixed it at 2,000 paces. This measure was determined on because it was a tradition that in the camp of the Israelites, when coming from Egypt, no part of the camp was more than 2000 paces from the tabernacle, and over this space, therefore, they were permitted to travel for worship. Perhaps, also, some countenance was given to this from the fact that this was the extent of the suburbs of the Levitical cities, Num_35:5. Mount Olivet was only 5 furlongs from Jerusalem, and Bethany was 15 furlongs. But on the eastern declivity of the mountain the tract of country was called, for a considerable space, the region of Bethany; and it was from this place that the Lord Jesus ascended.

FYI, Support for First/Last Adam:
[John Gill] Genesis 5:5 - And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years...

The Arabic (g) writers relate, that Adam when he was near death called to him Seth, Enos, Kainan, and Mahalaleel, and ordered them by his will, when he was dead, to embalm his body with myrrh, frankincense, and cassia... they should take his body with them, and bury it in the middle or the earth. They are very particular as to the time of his death. They say (i) it was on ... the fourteenth of Nisan... in the ninth hour of that day...the primitive Christian fathers will have it that he was buried at Golgotha, on Mount Calvary, where Christ suffered.

(g) Patricides, p. 5. Elmacinus, p. 6. apud Hottinger. Smegma Oriental. l. 1. c. 8. p. 216, 217. (i) Patricides & Elamacinus, apud Hottinger. ib.

Mat 27:33 - And when they were come to a place called Golgotha... that is to say, a place of a skull: some say Adam's skull was found here, and from thence the place had its name...

Luk 23:33 - And when they were come to the place which was called Calvary,.... which signifies a skull; so called from the skulls of persons that lay about, who were executed. It is a tradition of the ancients (y), that Adam was buried in this place where Christ was crucified, and that his skull lay here.

Joh 19:17 - And he bearing his cross,.... Which was usual for malefactors to do, as Lipsius (i) shows out of Artemidorus, and Plutarch; the former says,

"the cross is like to death, and he that is to be fixed to it, first bears it;''

and the latter says,

"and everyone of the malefactors that are punished in body, "carries out his own cross".''

So Christ, when he first went out to be crucified, carried his cross himself, until the Jews, meeting with Simon the Cyrenian, obliged him to bear it after him; that is, one part of it; for still Christ continued to bear a part himself: of this Isaac was a type, in carrying the wood on his shoulders for the burnt offering; and this showed that Christ was made sin, and a curse for us, and that our sins, and the punishment which belonged to us, were laid on him, and bore by him; and in this he has left us an example to go forth without the camp, bearing his reproach:

went forth in a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew, Golgotha: and signifies a man's skull: it seems, that as they executed malefactors here, so they buried them here; and in process of time, their bones being dug up to make room for others, their skulls, with other bones, lay up and down in this place; from whence it had its name in the Syriac dialect, which the Jews then usually spake: here some say Adam's skull was found, and that it had its name from thence. This was an ancient tradition, as has been observed in the notes on See Gill on Mat_27:33, and See Gill on Luk_23:33 the Syriac writers have it (k), who say,

"when Noah went out of the ark there was made a distribution of the bones of Adam; to Shem, his head was given, and the place in which he was buried is called "Karkaphta": where likewise Christ was crucified;''

which word signifies a skull, as Golgotha does: and so likewise the Arabic writers (l); who affirm that Shem said these words to Melchizedek,

"Noah commanded that thou shouldst take the body of Adam, and bury it in the middle of the earth; therefore let us go, I and thou, and bury it; wherefore Shem and Melchizedek went to take the body of Adam, and the angel of the Lord appeared to them and went before them, till they came to the place Calvary, where they buried him, as the angel of the Lord commanded them:''

the same also had the ancient fathers of the Christian church; Cyprian (m) says, that it is a tradition of the ancients, that Adam was buried in Calvary under the place where the cross of Christ was fixed; and Jerom makes mention of it more than once; so Paula and Eustochium, in an epistle supposed to be dictated by him, or in which he was assisting, say (n), in this city, meaning Jerusalem, yea in this place, Adam is said to dwell, and to die; from whence the place where our Lord was crucified is called Calvary, because there the skull of the ancient man was buried: and in another place he himself says (o), that he heard one disputing in the church and explaining, Eph_5:14 of Adam buried in Calvary, where the Lord was crucified, and therefore was so called. Ambrose (p) also takes notice of it; the place of the cross, says he, is either in the midst of the land, that it might be conspicuous to all, or over the grave of Adam, as the Hebrews dispute: others say that the hill itself was in the form of a man's skull, and therefore was so called; it was situated, as Jerom says (q), on the north of Mount Zion, and is thought by some to be the same with the hill Gareb, in Jer_31:39. It was usual to crucify on high hills, so Polycrates was crucified upon the highest top of Mount Mycale (r).

(i) De Cruce, l. 2. c. 5. p. 76. (k) Bar Bahluli apud Castel. Lexic. Polyglot. col. 3466. (l) Elmacinus, p. 13. Patricides, p. 12. apud Hottinger. Smegma Oriental. l. 1. c. 8. p. 257. (m) De Resurrectione Christi, p. 479. (n) Epist. Marcellae, fol. 42. L. Tom. I. (o) Comment. in Eph. v. 14. (p) Comment. in Luc. xx. 33. (q) De locis Hebraicis, fol. 92. F. (r) Valer. Maxim. l. 6. c. ult.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/mishkan-temple/untitled1.jpg

Here's the view we'd have from the temple:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/mishkan-temple/diagramoftemple2.jpg

the Straight line to the end of Moriah, over the archway, and past the actual walkway one goes down during the feasts and even Yom Kippur- is a line of view that would allow from the Holy Place and the actual Altar, to see Y'shua as if He, Himself is on the altar, on the wood. Again, it's a Literal and Symbolic picture all at once.


Here are the scriptures:

Here are the scriptures that describe the death of Y'shua:

Mat 27:50 Yeshua cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
Mat 27:51 Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
Mat 27:54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Yeshua, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God."

Mar 15:37 Yeshua cried out with a loud voice, and gave up the spirit.
Mar 15:38 The veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom.
Mar 15:39 When the centurion, who stood by opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!"
Mar 15:40 There were also women watching from afar, among whom were both Miriam from Magdala, and Miriam the mother of Ya`akov the less and of Yosi, and Shalomit;
Mar 15:41 who, when he was in the Galil, followed him, and served him; and many other women who came up with him to Yerushalayim...

Luk 23:44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 The sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two.
Luk 23:46 Yeshua, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" Having said this, he breathed his last.
Luk 23:47 When the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this was a righteous man."
Luk 23:48 All the multitudes that came together to see this, when they saw the things that were done, returned home beating their breasts.
Luk 23:49 All his acquaintances, and the women who followed with him from the Galil, stood at a distance, watching these things.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the Torah;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God...
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 13:8 Yeshua our Messiah is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Yeshua also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

[Ladybug]

Thank you for posting that info, Antsy!

[littleone]

http://www.hopefortoday.org/ by David Hocking, in Articles Archives

As Israel moves closer towards the building of the Third Temple, only one thing is missing...the ashes of the Red Heifer, required by the Bible for purification.

What is the red heifer...and what is its mystery? Why is it so important? Is there a red heifer today...how close is Israel to finding one?

The renewal of the red heifer has captured the attention of millions, but reliable information has never before been available from an authentic Jewish standpoint. Now, The Mystery of the Red Heifer provides the answers to these questions and many others. For the first time, all of the background, stories, laws and wisdom relating to this unique Biblical commandment are presented in one authoritative volume. Also included: the exciting, unfolding drama of the red heifer for Israel's coming Third Temple. Rabbi Chaim Richman, author and translator, is an internationally acclaimed authority on the Holy Temple and the prophecies concerning the future of Israel and the world. He has been associated with the Temple Institute of Jerusalem for many years, and is the founder of Light to the Nations, an organization which seeks to build a bridge of understanding between Jews and Christians. His previously published works include The Odyssey of the Third Temple and The Temple Haggaddah (translated from the Hebrew), and The Holy Temple of Jerusalem. (from the back cover) 79 pages. Copyright 1997 by Rabbi Chaim Richman, Jerusalem, Israel

It was my understanding it was to purify the tabernacle and later the temple so the Shekinah Glory could dwell there.

[antsinmypants]

the ashes of the heifer are also to cleanse those who are unclean.

[Hootmon]

the ashes of the heifer are also to cleanse those who are unclean.I think that includes the implements as well.

The ashes are needed to 'bootstrap' the whole process of Temple Sacrifice.

[mama_bear]

I guess I don't understand the path that Jesus would have taken if Golgotha is in front of the temple.
I thought Jesus was sentenced at the praetorium (at Herod's palace?). If so wouldn't he have had to go through the temple to get to the Place of the Skull? Or maybe there are other exits?
It does seem like it would have been a more on display type of path right through the city (from the praetorium at the back) to infront of the temple?
I think i read somewhere that the exact location is thought to be either: the Holy Sepulchre or gordons Calvary?

[antsinmypants]

I guess I don't understand the path that Jesus would have taken if Golgotha is in front of the temple.

This is the path the red heifer would take. It's also got deep symbolism in the other feasts of going and fetching the water of Yeshua to take into the temple for the feast of Tabernacles, in which the water and wine libation is done (of which we are shown symbolism when Y'shua's side is peirced).

:wave

[allynnegirl]

While I am no scholar, I can read the Scriptures.

John 19:17-18 and he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: where they crucified him, and two others with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Golgotha is also referenced in: Matthew 27:33 and Mark 15:22, neither of which says that He was moved to another location before He was crucified.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[antsinmypants]

allynnegirl, to which are you making this comment?

Golgotha, the place of the skull is referenced in the above posts, at the foothills of Moriah.
It's said that is where Adam was buried... hence the reason for calling it "Golgotha" (Place of the skull) Whose skull? Adam's.

[allynnegirl]

Also, in the Scriptures cited:

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

The rending of the veil is mentioned first, then the earthquakes, rocks, graves, and awaking of the saints. The account of the centurion and they that were with him starts with the earthquakes, not the veil. I feel this is important too.

[allynnegirl]

allynnegirl, to which are you making this comment?

Golgotha, the place of the skull is referenced in the above posts, at the foothills of Moriah.
It's said that is where Adam was buried... hence the reason for calling it "Golgotha" (Place of the skull) Whose skull? Adam's.

Okay,

Like I said, I am not a scholar. :):

And in my second post, I just thought I would bring that up. But, of course, I don't read Hebrew or any other Biblical language, so my understanding of those passages could be skewed too. ;):

Really, I'm not arguing the point, just pointing out what struck me. I don't care where Jesus was crucified, but that He was crucified, died for the sins of the world, and was resurrected.

:wave