Headcoverings

[hapimom98]

I am opening this new thread about headcoverings since we were starting to discuss it in another thread. I feel this deserves it's own thread.

I am hoping that Pilgrimian, Ants and anyone else who has done in-depth studying on this will join me here to teach and share the conclusions they have come to. I am of a teachable spirit and wanting to learn more about this.

I have read bits and pieces here and there and came somewhat to a decision that my hair is given to me as my covering.....however, I will admit that I didn't do a very deep study on the subject.

I believe that I am my dh's help meet. I believe that my dh is the head of our house. I believe that the Lord is my dh's head. The Lord has taught me on this subject for this past year, so I feel as if I am a baby. But I thirst for His will in my life concerning these issues.

My intent is that this thread would be for learning and for teachable spirits. Anyone who would like to debate can open a thread in apologetics.

Let the teaching and sharing begin. :):

[Time2Sow]

1Co:11:15: But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering

that's the only scripture i am familiar with, myself, but i too am eager to learn more. Please bring on the learnin' :thumb

[hapimom98]

:Bump


We are hungry! :hungry


:becky

[toddlemom]

:popcorn

that help with the munchies?

[Pendragon]

We have women in our church that wear headcoverings for this very reason

[FollowTheLamb]

I came out of a church which practiced wearing the headcoverings. Many small churches are doing this now. Those who rpactice this say the larger churches which dont' wear headcoverings are catering to strong-willed females who would not put up with it. Here is why:

11:3 I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Women do not like the idea that their husbands are their heads. They prefer to think they are equal partners in marriage, and make the idea of the husband being the head demeaning. Nevertheless, the Scripture is clear, isn't it, that the man is to be the leader? The reason for the headcoverings, according to verse 7 was that the woman's hair is her glory. The headcovering symbolizes covering her glory to let her head, the husband, shine. This is a picture of the bride of Christ, the Church, walking in submission to her Head that Christ may have the glory in all things.

[Time2Sow]

1Co:11:1: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co:11:2: Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1Co:11:3: But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co:11:4: Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Co:11:5: But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co:11:6: For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co:11:7: For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co:11:8: For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co:11:9: Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co:11:10: For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
1Co:11:11: Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co:11:12: For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Co:11:13: Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
1Co:11:14: Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Co:11:15: But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
1Co:11:16: But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

and here's Matthew Henry's Commentary on these verses for a bonus
2-16 Here begin particulars respecting the public assemblies,
ch. #1Co 14. In the abundance of spiritual gifts bestowed on
the Corinthians, some abuses had crept in; but as Christ did the
will, and sought the honour of God, so the Christian should avow
his subjection to Christ, doing his will and seeking his glory.
We should, even in our dress and habit, avoid every thing that
may dishonour Christ. The woman was made subject to man, because
made for his help and comfort. And she should do nothing, in
Christian assemblies, which looked like a claim of being equal.
She ought to have "power," that is, a veil, on her head, because
of the angels. Their presence should keep Christians from all
that is wrong while in the worship of God. Nevertheless, the man
and the woman were made for one another. They were to be mutual
comforts and blessings, not one a slave, and the other a tyrant.
God has so settled matters, both in the kingdom of providence
and that of grace, that the authority and subjection of each
party should be for mutual help and benefit. It was the common
usage of the churches, for women to appear in public assemblies,
and join in public worship, veiled; and it was right that they
should do so. The Christian religion sanctions national customs
wherever these are not against the great principles of truth and
holiness; affected singularities receive no countenance from any
thing in the Bible.

so far, it looks like i better start thinking about going back to my hippie days, at least insofar as scarfing my head goes, at least in church... i dont suppose tie dyes are mentioned anywhere in the gospel? :hippie :):

[andy]

This may sound stupid, so here it goes. My only experience with this is the movies. Yeah I know, go ahead and laugh but I'm trying to be honest. In any movie about Jesus I have seen, the men covered their head with their shawl or some other type of garment when they prayed or read the scripture.

I have read the scriptures but I am still in the dark about this. :confused

Any help would be appreciated. :wave

[hapimom98]

Time2Sow~
Thanks for posting those verses. :):

Hmmmmmm......so what I'm understanding (through this thick skull) is that a woman should be veiled during prayer and worship to the Lord.....??

Is that the only time then?


I'm also wondering about the length of hair (not in a legalistic manner), but it sounds as if a woman's hair should not be "shorn" (shaven):

1Co:11:5: But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co:11:6: For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.


Also, this part makes me scratch my head:

1Co:11:10: For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.


What do you make of that? :confused

Sorry, this is a little confusing to me......hoping to get more input.


Andy~
I wouldn't go by what "movies" do or say..... :B: but it appears to me, at a glance, that God's word says for a man to NOT cover his head. :noidea



:bump
:):

[pilgrimian]

This may sound stupid, so here it goes. My only experience with this is the movies. Yeah I know, go ahead and laugh but I'm trying to be honest. In any movie about Jesus I have seen, the men covered their head with their shawl or some other type of garment when they prayed or read the scripture.

I have read the scriptures but I am still in the dark about this. :confused

Any help would be appreciated. :wave

This is something that Rabbinic Jews will do. But men are not to cover their heads, as Paul teaches. Don't be concerned, I'm not laughing. But this is a tradition in Judaism, and not one that Paul taught to the Church.

I attend a Messianic Congregation, and I must say that I am troubled when men where the yarmulke. First Corinthians is pretty clear...men are not to wear any covering.

Time2Sow~
Thanks for posting those verses. :):

Hmmmmmm......so what I'm understanding (through this thick skull) is that a woman should be veiled during prayer and worship to the Lord.....??

Is that the only time then?

I would say that women ought to be during the assembly of the saints--since that is the context of chapter 11. If a woman is driving and does not have her head covered I don't believe she's in the wrong. Likewise, if a man has a hat on and says a prayer he, too, is not wrong.

I'm also wondering about the length of hair (not in a legalistic manner), but it sounds as if a woman's hair should not be "shorn" (shaven):

1Co:11:5: But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co:11:6: For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

This is because her hair is a "glory to her" and is given to her as a covering in the natural realm. In the assembly of the saints she is to wear a covering over that glory.

I hope that this doesn't result in posts regarding women who lose their hair in cancer treatments. Awful things like this happen. But I would say that women ought not shave their heads of their own volition. If they do so then they surely ought not go into the assembly as such, but need a covering.

Also, this part makes me scratch my head:

1Co:11:10: For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.


What do you make of that? :confused

Sorry, this is a little confusing to me......hoping to get more input.

Interesting translation..."power"??? Hmmmm. I've seen it also translated as "authority." Gotta get back to work...more soon.

Shalom,
Matthew

[blitzkreig]

First Corinthians is pretty clear...men are not to wear any covering.
... on their head. ;):

Sorry to finsh your sentence here brother ... :lol

For what it's worth in the 1950s and 60s it would be quite uncommon, where I come from anyway, to find a mature woman who did not wear a hat in Church. The term "head covering" was never actually brought up but proper accoutrement included a hat.

Not "doilies" but a hat. :hat

.

[hapimom98]

I would say that women ought to be during the assembly of the saints--since that is the context of chapter 11. If a woman is driving and does not have her head covered I don't believe she's in the wrong. Likewise, if a man has a hat on and says a prayer he, too, is not wrong.



This is because her hair is a "glory to her" and is given to her as a covering in the natural realm. In the assembly of the saints she is to wear a covering over that glory.

I hope that this doesn't result in posts regarding women who lose their hair in cancer treatments. Awful things like this happen. But I would say that women ought not shave their heads of their own volition. If they do so then they surely ought not go into the assembly as such, but need a covering.



Interesting translation..."power"??? Hmmmm. I've seen it also translated as "authority." Gotta get back to work...more soon.

Shalom,
Matthew


Ok.....when you explain it, it seems pretty simple. Cover in the setting of church but out and about just use the hair as a covering.

I guess I've read up on it and some women have come to the conclusion that their hair is the covering all the time......so that's kind of the conclusion I came too because the verse that says:

1Co:11:14: Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Co:11:15: But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
1Co:11:16: But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


These verses are really confusing to me, the language they use is hard for me to get a grip on with my brain.

I am still curious about the verse that talks about the woman having power on her head because of the angels.......does that mean head as in husband? :confused

Sorry :laugh .....just really trying to understand and thinking "outloud", as they say.

Looking forward to more input from all. :):

[hapimom98]

I read this version last night and it seem much easier for me to grasp.

From this, it looks to me that a woman should wear a covering in her hair during the assembly of believers, during teaching, praying,....(see vs. 5), but that her hair can be her covering in the "natural world"......

I see that vs. 10 is a little more clear in this translation.

I thought vs. 16 was pretty clear too.....that there is no other custom in the churches (if one wants to argue and be contentious about this subject).

Thoughts?


1 Corinthians 11:1-16 (Amplified Bible)


1 Corinthians 11
1PATTERN YOURSELVES after me [follow my example], as I imitate and follow Christ (the Messiah).
2I appreciate and commend you because you always remember me in everything and keep firm possession of the traditions (the substance of my instructions), just as I have [verbally] passed them on to you.

3But I want you to know and realize that Christ is the Head of every man, the head of a woman is her husband, and the Head of Christ is God.

4Any man who prays or prophesies (teaches, refutes, reproves, admonishes, and comforts) with his head covered dishonors his Head (Christ).

5And any woman who [publicly] prays or prophesies (teaches, refutes, reproves, admonishes, or comforts) when she is bareheaded dishonors her head (her husband); it is the same as [if her head were] shaved.

6For if a woman will not wear [a head] covering, then she should cut off her hair too; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her head shorn or shaven, let her cover [her head].

7For a man ought not to wear anything on his head [in church], for he is the image and [reflected] glory of God [[a]his function of government reflects the majesty of the divine Rule]; but woman is [the expression of] man's glory (majesty, preeminence).(A)

8For man was not [created] from woman, but woman from man;(B)

9Neither was man created on account of or for the benefit of woman, but woman on account of and for the benefit of man.(C)

10[b]Therefore she should [be subject to his authority and should] have a covering on her head [as a token, a symbol, of her submission to authority, [c]that she may show reverence as do] the angels [and not displease them].

11Nevertheless, in [the plan of] the Lord and from His point of view woman is not apart from and independent of man, nor is man aloof from and independent of woman;

12For as woman was made from man, even so man is also born of woman; and all [whether male or female go forth] from God [as their Author].

13Consider for yourselves; is it proper and decent [according to your customs] for a woman to offer prayer to God [publicly] with her head uncovered?

14Does not [d]the native sense of propriety (experience, common sense, reason) itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is a dishonor [humiliating and degrading] to him,

15But if a woman has long hair, it is her ornament and glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

16Now if anyone is disposed to be argumentative and contentious about this, we hold to and recognize no other custom [in worship] than this, nor do the churches of God generally.

[pilgrimian]

Here's a good article on the subject:

The subject of the woman’s head covering (http://users.bigpond.net.au/joeflorence/heads.html) is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. There are two extreme views as to its validity. Some believe that it is a divine truth to be practiced by all Christian women everywhere while others believe it is irrelevant, and at best, and outmoded custom peculiar to Corinthian times. Our purpose in this study is to seek the mind of God as to the true meaning of the head covering, bearing in mind that Paul wrote with divine authority.

" If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I wrote unto you are the commandments of the Lord." 1Cor.14:37.

The Bible states that lawlessness would characterize the last days 2 Thess.2:7 and that there would be a breakdown in regard for law and order. This spirit pervades the spiritual real where, increasingly, professing Christians reject or "water-down" the plain, direct teaching of the Word of God. In considering the passages before us, may we avoid the spirit of the day and come to the Word with a desire to honestly know - "What saith the Lord?"

The simplest way to approach the subject is to note eighth outstanding facts:

THREE HEADS

THREE GLORIES

TWO COVERINGS

If we can see how these relate one to another, we shall be able to come to an understanding of some wondrous truths which, heretofore, may have been hidden from our eyes.

THREE HEADS (V.3-5)

The first is God; the second is Christ; and the third is Man. God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man and man is the head of the woman. This does not mean to imply "inferiority" as some might think. It is DIVINE ORDER that is in view here. Only as we recognize HEADSHIP will we be able to appreciate God’s order, Godward and manward. In the universe Satan, the usurper, failed to recognize the Headship of God and fell. In the garden, the woman failed to recognize the headship of Adam and fell, pulling the entire human race down with her, even as Satan drew a vast number of angels with him in the original fall.

THE THREE GLORIES (v.7-15)

1. MAN (v.7) Man is the glory of God.

2. WOMAN (v.7) Woman is the glory of the man.

3. WOMAN’S LONG HAIR (v.15) Her personal glory.


In scripture, a covering denotes "subjection". Thus, when Rebeccah saw Isaac, she "covered herself" (Gen.24:65) as much to say, "Isaac is my head." In Isaiah 6:2 we notice that the seraphim have six wings. With two they did fly and with four they did "cover" themselves before the presence of God. It took twice as much energy to cover themselves as it did to serve, seeing they covered themselves with four wings and flew with two.

(Like your avatar..."under the shadow of His wings"...Pilgrimian)

Keep in mind, then, that a covering or a "head-covering" denotes subjection and you will understand why the man wears no covering on his head. He represents the glory of God - therefore he wears no covering, for God is subject to no one. The woman, representing man’s glory, is covered. She teaches with her veiled head that man is in subjection to God, and that his glory is out of sight, veiled, hidden - only God’s glory is to be seen. At the same time, when the woman covers her head, she not only covers man’s glory but her own PERSONAL GLORY which is her hair. Thus, when the saints are come together for some purpose, we see the man uncovered, for he teaches by so doing that God’s glory alone is to be seen. The woman, with covered head, not only veils her own glory but, with her head covered, teaches that in this place, man’s glory is not to be seen.

The first woman, Eve, did not recognize headship. Satan caused her to be deceived into thinking she could raise herself by taking things into her own hands. Instead of lifting the man up, she pulled him down. The New Testament woman, on the contrary, with her head covered, teaches that she knows what Eve failed to regard - God’s order. She recognizes headship. Eve did not. She bows to God’s word. Eve transgressed. Eve took man out of his rightful place but the New Testament woman, under grace, is going to keep him there. What an object lesson for man to see, to be reminded of every time the saints come together!

"For this cause ought the woman have power (authority) on her head BECAUSE OF THE ANGELS." v.10. This is deeply significant for it reminds us that the angels of God are interested spectators of what goes on in the assembly. None know divine order and headship better than the angels. How they must watch in amazement, beholding the silent ministry of veiled head and the loving obedience of a devoted heart.

(See 1 Peter about this, too...Pilgrimian)


THE TWO COVERINGS (v.5-6;15)

The best commentators see two coverings - one which is put on the head over the hair, and the other being the hair itself. The woman’s long hair is her personal glory. But when the saints meet for some purpose, she then places a covering on her head, thus not only veiling man’s glory, which she represents, but also her own personal glory.

Personally, I don't hold up the authority beyond my responsibility. Many men view the "authority" without taking the other side of the coin. Adam is a good example. In Genesis 3:6 we see that Adam was with Eve when she took the fruit...and was irresponsible in keeping her from eating the fruit. I also see the covering of the woman, and the man being uncovered to show man's responsibility before God.

Blessings,
Matthew

[pilgrimian]

... on their head. ;):

Sorry to finsh your sentence here brother ... :lol

For what it's worth in the 1950s and 60s it would be quite uncommon, where I come from anyway, to find a mature woman who did not wear a hat in Church. The term "head covering" was never actually brought up but proper accoutrement included a hat.

Not "doilies" but a hat. :hat

My grandma was the same, and I'm afraid that there was a time when this became more of "what you do," as opposed to something taught and understood from Scripture. She would tell me that men simply weren't supposed to wear hats in church...that it was wrong. But she didn't tell me why. I'm not sure she even knew why she did it.

Thanks for finishing my sentence...you knew what I meant, brother! :lol Gotta watch out for you Canadians...!

Doilies are fine with me, though my wife has found that a hat works best for her because her hair is straight and the veil she used to wear would slip off during the sermon (not to mention she kind of looked like an Italian woman at a funeral...though it was a beautiful veil that her mother had made for her). The hat stays put, and is beautiful.

Blessings,
Matthew

[hapimom98]

Here's a good article on the subject:



Personally, I don't hold up the authority beyond my responsibility. Many men view the "authority" without taking the other side of the coin. Adam is a good example. In Genesis 3:6 we see that Adam was with Eve when she took the fruit...and was irresponsible in keeping her from eating the fruit. I also see the covering of the woman, and the man being uncovered to show man's responsibility before God.

Blessings,
Matthew

Thank you, Matthew, for that article. It is excellent and shows the "heart" of why to cover. I visited the site for a bit and read some other excellent teachings. I don't have time to share now but will later.

[toddlemom]

... on their head. ;):

Sorry to finsh your sentence here brother ... :lol

For what it's worth in the 1950s and 60s it would be quite uncommon, where I come from anyway, to find a mature woman who did not wear a hat in Church. The term "head covering" was never actually brought up but proper accoutrement included a hat.

Not "doilies" but a hat. :hat

.

From the "doily" wearing point of view -- hats indicate pride :drama. Bet you dind't know that!

Around here it's a cultural landmine! Sad to say, more cultural baggage than Biblical background goes into some of our decisions.

Our church separated from the Mennonites years ago. The original group is now conservative Mennonite (black cars, dresses, doilies, no TV or radio or internet or musical instruments or going to high school. Most of the men are dairy farmers or work in agri-biz and the women clerk in stores or baby-sit or whatever until they marry. That said, they have a strong close-knit community. Some do kick over the traces and take music lessons or go to high school but most are your basic evangelical Christians with fewer choices when they go car shopping.)

DH's family sort of embraced an "anti-Mennonite" view as far as women's dress. Especially since his grandparents had a major on-going family feud over prayer coverings adn sleeve lengths on dresses. So if someone such as myself were to show up in a prayer covering it would be viewed as playing the "I'm a better Christian" game.

It's not a big deal to DH either way.

So, to play it safe ... I"m shorn :lol

[hapimom98]

From the "doily" wearing point of view -- hats indicate pride :drama. Bet you dind't know that!

Around here it's a cultural landmine! Sad to say, more cultural baggage than Biblical background goes into some of our decisions.

Our church separated from the Mennonites years ago. The original group is now conservative Mennonite (black cars, dresses, doilies, no TV or radio or internet or musical instruments or going to high school. Most of the men are dairy farmers or work in agri-biz and the women clerk in stores or baby-sit or whatever until they marry. That said, they have a strong close-knit community. Some do kick over the traces and take music lessons or go to high school but most are your basic evangelical Christians with fewer choices when they go car shopping.)

DH's family sort of embraced an "anti-Mennonite" view as far as women's dress. Especially since his grandparents had a major on-going family feud over prayer coverings adn sleeve lengths on dresses. So if someone such as myself were to show up in a prayer covering it would be viewed as playing the "I'm a better Christian" game.

It's not a big deal to DH either way.

So, to play it safe ... I"m shorn :lol


I see what you're saying, toddlemom.....that's so sad. Sounds like everyone's comparing themselves with each other instead of to the Word of God. :(: It's sad when we take God's word and make it a legalistic thing instead of doing it with love and understanding of what the spirit of it means.

Around where I live, if I do start covering, they won't even recognize what I'm doing! Anyone around here who wears a scarf on her head is either an old lady or a biker babe (bandana) :laugh .

I just love studying about God's plan for women. Hope you continue to join us. :):

[blitzkreig]

toddlemom around here the Mennonite were pretty ordinary folk. Some dressed a little oddly but aside form that ...

There is a sect that are called "Hutterite" which for the most part fit your description. No female was to be educated. The males only go to grade 8 max. They are very very very good at farming. They for the most part are quite wealthy as a result.

But sadly they kept the community was so small it led to inbreeding problems.

.

[toddlemom]

At one point there were 26 different branches of Mennonites in our area. Some "cover" and some don't at all. There are black doilies, white doilies, white see-through caps ("sin sifters"), white opaque caps, white scarves, black scarves and one group allows the boys and girls to wear blue straw hats (boys) and blue bonnets (girls) some of the girls in the latter group will have floral-print bonnets and matching aprons (actually pretty cute ...)

The whole idea is to come out from among the world and be separate ... how each group chooses to do that (steel wheeled farm machinery? rubber tires? horse drawn only) is where they vary.

We "English" can just shake our heads over the idea of steel wheels vs. rubber tires -- I guess we all have to decide what hill we're going to die on so to speak. Is it a salvation issue? And walk in liberty adn charity.

I honestly think there is a very strong case for women "covering" but like I said around hre it's a cultural land mine and DH is not pushing for it.

YSIC
Ann

[hapimom98]

Is it a salvation issue? And walk in liberty adn charity.

YSIC
Ann


Ann,

I don't believe it is a salvation issue. For me, it is something I feel the Lord is teaching me on and I feel I am responsible for ME once I learn what He's teaching. He is doing something in my heart concerning this and if, in the end, I feel that this is something I should do, I will. But it is a matter of obedience, not of salvation.

Of course, I believe that you must do what your dh wants.....if he prefers you not to wear a covering then you should go with that. He is your head.
What good would it be to cover if your dh is completely against it? Would seem rather against the whole idea and heart of submission, to me.

I can see the contentiousness that would occur in the area in which you live. It is very sad that it has become a tradition of man rather than one doing it because they know the heart of the Father.

God bless you, sister.
:hug



(psssst......Hi, Ants! :wave Come out, come out wherever you are! :B: )

[pilgrimian]

From the "doily" wearing point of view -- hats indicate pride :drama. Bet you dind't know that!

Personally, that's of man...not of God. Perhaps women who wore hats had some degree of pride...but not my dear Marietita. Her hat is simple, and lovely...and most important it covers her head.

Around here it's a cultural landmine! Sad to say, more cultural baggage than Biblical background goes into some of our decisions.

That is unfortunate.

DH's family sort of embraced an "anti-Mennonite" view as far as women's dress. Especially since his grandparents had a major on-going family feud over prayer coverings adn sleeve lengths on dresses. So if someone such as myself were to show up in a prayer covering it would be viewed as playing the "I'm a better Christian" game.

It's not a big deal to DH either way.

So, to play it safe ... I"m shorn :lol

I don't understand why people allow such things to affect something Scriptural. All we need to do is wipe away how man has perverted things and go back to the foundation...Scripture. Where do we read about "sleeve lengths" in Scripture? Silliness, which has resulted is negativity about a Biblical command.

[rosenherman]

My grandma was the same, and I'm afraid that there was a time when this became more of "what you do," as opposed to something taught and understood from Scripture. She would tell me that men simply weren't supposed to wear hats in church...that it was wrong. But she didn't tell me why. I'm not sure she even knew why she did it.


It isn't just in church, men are supposed to take their hats off when they enter a building, and keep them off until they leave.

[pilgrimian]

It isn't just in church, men are supposed to take their hats off when they enter a building, and keep them off until they leave.

Where do we learn this in Scripture?

[rosenherman]

Where do we learn this in Scripture?
You should have learned it from your folks. It is considered polite. Like taking your gloves off before you shake hands.

[pilgrimian]

You should have learned it from your folks. It is considered polite. Like taking your gloves off before you shake hands.

Yes, I understand that some consider it being polite...but where do you believe this understanding came from?

For your information, I've never been a hat-wearer. Therefore, my folks never needed to reprimand me on the issue. My grandmother brought it up one time because there was a little boy who was wearing his baseball cap in the sanctuary. It infuriated her, which is fine.

Even though I was brough up in Michigan, and lived my first thirty years there...I was never much into wearing gloves. So that was never an issue for me.

So, do you wear a headcovering in the assembly?

[pilgrimian]

rosenherman?

Bueller? Bueller?

:Fish

[toddlemom]

Men taking their hats off comes from the idea of soldiers taking their helmets off, or so I've been told. Men are to take their hats off in church and in someone's home (or substitute home such as in an office), not necessarily in a public building such as a hotel lobby or train station. This according to my dad.

In Victorian times, a man would touch or lift his cap when greeting someone, but to a lady only if she acknowleged him. Otherwise he'd wear his arm out. In a home while calling (brief visit) he was to keep his hat with him, not fiddle with it or play with it or misplace it. The thinking was if a fellow couldn't take care of his hat, how was he supposed to take care of a wife! :lol

This is off the top of my head (pardon my pun) from items I've been reading about Victorian society and manners.

When MIL and I are away and DH and FIL and the boys are "batching it" they leave their hats on all the time in the house, even at the table. Because they can :lol

Honestly, folks, I think you all can make a real good case from Scripture about women's head covering. But for me, right here right now, I'll just have to let it go. As I said DH likes me to look modern and "English."

YSIC
Ann

[blitzkreig]

Some of these posts are about an arcane tradition called ... manners. Next thing you know someone will bring up ... chivalry ... :doh

[matheteou]

Some of these posts are about an arcane tradition called ... manors. Next thing you know someone will bring up ... chivalry ... :dohDon't people live in manors but display good/bad manners?

C'mon Blitz, you started old school before I did.

[blitzkreig]

Don't people live in manors but display good/bad manners?

C'mon Blitz, you started old school before I did.You caught me ... just as I was correcting it :B:

[antsinmypants]

Ah, but Chivalry, manners and Modesty go hand in glove...

[antsinmypants]

Hapimom98, since you asked, this is what I will do.

I'm going to post old threads so that everyone can be on the same page. I just ask that we don't bump these, but use them to learn & grow from, and if there are any questions about what Pilgrimian and I posted, I'd be happy to respond here. :):

Headcoverings for Women (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=96387)

1 Corinthians 11 (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=96886)

1Cor 11:5&13 Should women pray uncovered? (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=101703)

Help from women who do cover (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=102848)

headcoverings (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=121928)

Long Hair (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=133625)

Question about Female Pastor (http://http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=137599)

Should women wear veils in church? (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=138224)

How is Adultery Defined in the bible? (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=166765)

[hapimom98]

Thank you, Ants. I will be looking at all of those.

I am very pleased that this thread didn't unravel into arguments. Thanks to everyone....I have much to pray about and ponder.

God bless.

[Mommy2KandM]

First I want to say I have not read this thread. I received a PM asking me a question about my experiance and after sending it thought I maybe should post some of it here for others to read in case they are struggling with this decision also.

I am just posting my experience for others to see and take from it what they want. I am not pro or anti head covering. I don't think there is a set answer that fits each person actually. So if you are lead to cover then cover, there is a reason for being lead by the Lord to do so. And if you have been set free from needing to do that, then don't feel as though you are in sin. God knows what we need when we need it and the Holy Spirit in us will reveal to us what we are to do and when.

Here is my experience:
I am not wearing a head covering anymore. I did for about 1-2 months. My husband didn't see that it was needed, but supported me doing so if that is what I felt the Lord was asking me to do.

I can tell you this... I do think there is something to it in the way it brings us in our proper place with our husband. What I actual felt or saw change in me when I covered was that I respected my husband more and felt my place better. It is hard to explain. It made me stop and think.. should I speak this way to my husband, are my actions respectful or challenging? Because the head covering drew my attention to the fact that my husband is my head, over me and Christ is over him. And that I need to STOP overstepping him with my words or actions.

So why did I stop covering. Because it was a HUGE distraction for me and I felt that was not what God wanted. I was the ONLY person who covered in our church. So I found that I got so nervous prior to going to church because I knew I was going to look different than others. So my focus went from being on God to being on me. Then the whole time in church the back of my mind would be wondering if someone was looking at me... What are people thinking. How much am I standing out, etc... I found that I was leaving church and not even being able to remember what the service was about or fully partake in worship because I was distracted by my own head covering. And then I realized If I am this big if a distraction to myself.. I may also be one to others around me. I realized It was not going to serve the same purpose or benefit in this culture or area I lived in. It served more as a distraction and separation from my brothers and sisters in Christ for my culture and area then what it did in biblical times. I could better serve myself and my church by removing the physical covering and making sure I acted out and represented the eternal covering with my actions toward my husband for other women in the church to see. Honoring him as my head, and remembering him as my head, even with out a cloth on my head to remind me of it.

I feel confident in my decision to stop covering. I think for me the covering issues was a heart issue. I need to wear a covering on my head internally in my relationship to my husband. The covering is about our attitudes and actions and the actual physical covering helps remind us of that. But is it really necessary in order for us to get in check with our role and our husbands as our heads? For some it may be needed. For some for a short time, and others can get to that point a different way.

I don't regret doing it. I learned something and grew from it. The deeper respect for and honor for my husband as my head continues on today with out the physical covering being needed. It is an internal covering that I wear honoring him. And my wedding ring and my outward actions signifies to all that I am taken and under my husband.

[hapimom98]

First I want to say I have not read this thread. I received a PM asking me a question about my experiance and after sending it thought I maybe should post some of it here for others to read in case they are struggling with this decision also.

I am just posting my experience for others to see and take from it what they want. I am not pro or anti head covering. I don't think there is a set answer that fits each person actually. So if you are lead to cover then cover, there is a reason for being lead by the Lord to do so. And if you have been set free from needing to do that, then don't feel as though you are in sin. God knows what we need when we need it and the Holy Spirit in us will reveal to us what we are to do and when.

Here is my experience:

Thank you, Kristina. I can see how it would be easy to feel that way (like a distraction).

I wore a covering just here at home for a few days and it does give you a different perspective. I was very, very aware of being under the Lord's covering while I wore it.

I am torn. I have the spirit side arguing with the soul side and I'm not sure which way to go, yet.

(p.s. I did get your pm..... :wave )