Is my daughter still saved????

[Annieof5]

:(: I have a daughter who is 18. She accepted the Lord at age 5, and asked to be baptised at age 11. She was raised in Awana, Church, Christian school, etc. Through her Jr. High and Hi-school years she showed a lot of fruit spiritually. Liked church, youth group, journaled read her Bible etc.

At age 17 her older brother died (just 17 months ago). They were 16 months apart. From that time she won't really talk about his death. Has stopped going to church (except by force, because she still lives at home) and is becoming very worldly. She is 18, almost 19 now and just plain says church does nothing for her and tries to get out of going almost every Sunday. She is not on drugs, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, is sexually pure (so far), but has a lot of unsaved friends she is hanging around with and doesn't seem to be fruitful in anything right now and doesn't even feel badly about not going to church. She says Christ is in her heart, She knows it, and she doesn't need church or "organized religion". She has no other Christian fellowship coming from anywhere right now and doesn't desire it.

She attends a local community college here and is also taking a lot of real secular classes like human sexuality, women's studies, and of course psychology. She is getting her AA in humanities. We couldn't afford the Bible school she wanted to go to before our son died.

Well I am worried, because of her attitude lately about God. She seems mad at God right now, and I can't seem to reach her.....and I have this real fear that if she should die, I wouldn't be totally sure if she was saved. My heart tells me she is, but our church is starting to preach this "If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord AT ALL.....that scares the heck out me really.

I know my son who died was certainly saved, but he did some typical bad 19 year old stunts, but also confessed and felt badly about them.

My daughter just seems plan cold and distance.

My question is.....I know she was sincere as a child when she accepted the Lord and we saw fruit of that.

But now I wonder. I've always believed once saved always saved, even if one stumbles and falls away for a time....but now with this new teaching, it scares me.

I'm to emotional to look at this logical now, because I'm still grieving my son.

I was just wondering what some of your thought here are?

Anyone have teens that have "fallen away", yet you do believe they are truly saved?....or teens going thru a real "dry time".

....and what about this "If He is not Lord OF all, He is not Lord AT all" concept.

Is that really biblical? Some say it is. (biblically I can't argue that right now).

Please help me in this. I feel so vunerable and even spiritually attacked lately, because of this issue. She is oldest child now and I feel obsessed with having to know where she stands spiritually.

Annie.

[HeIsEnough]

I will pray for you and your daughter Annie.

He will never leave us nor forsake us, and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That is biblical Annie. I don't recognize that quote in the scriptures that is floating around your church.

Many have been angry with God in their past. I know I have, and He brought me through it. Keep encouraging her and proclaiming Gods love to her, and most of all pray for her. :hug

[70thWeek]

:(: I have a daughter who is 18. She accepted the Lord at age 5, and asked to be baptised at age 11. She was raised in Awana, Church, Christian school, etc. Through her Jr. High and Hi-school years she showed a lot of fruit spiritually. Liked church, youth group, journaled read her Bible etc.

At age 17 her older brother died (just 17 months ago). They were 16 months apart. From that time she won't really talk about his death. Has stopped going to church and is becoming very worldly. She is 18, almost 19 now and just plain says church does nothing for her. She is not on drugs, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, is sexually pure (so far), but has a lot of unsaved friends she is hanging around with and doesn't seem to be fruitful in anything right now and doesn't even feel badly about not going to church. She says Christ is in her heart, She knows it, and she doesn't need church or "organized religion". She has no other Christian fellowship coming from anywhere right now and doesn't desire it.

She attends a local community college here and is also taking a lot of real secular classes like human sexuality, women's studies, and of course psychology. She is getting her AA in humanities. We couldn't afford the Bible school she wanted to go to before our son died.

Well I am worried, because of her attitude lately about God. She seems mad at God right now, and I can't seem to reach her.....and I have this real fear that if she should die, I wouldn't be totally sure if she was saved. My heart tells me she is, but our church is starting to preach this "If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord AT ALL.....that scares the heck out me really.

I know my son who died was certainly saved, but he did some typical bad 19 year old stunts, but also confessed and felt badly about them.

My daughter just seems plan cold and distance.

My question is.....I know she was sincere as a child when she accepted the Lord and we saw fruit of that.

But now I wonder. I've always believed once saved always saved, even if one stumbles and falls away for a time....but now with this new teaching, it scares me.

I'm to emotional to look at this logical now, because I'm still grieving my son.

I was just wondering what some of your thought here are?

Anyone have teens that have "fallen away", yet you do believe they are truly saved?....or teens going thru a real "dry time".

....and what about this "If He is not Lord OF all, He is not Lord AT all" concept.

Is that really biblical? Some say it is. (biblically I can't argue that right now).

Please help me in this. I feel so vunerable and even spiritually attacked lately, because of this issue. She is oldest child now and I feel obsessed with having to know where she stands spiritually.

Annie.

I could offer a theological examination of the issue, but that is not what you need at the moment. The best thing that I can do is offer the story of my brother. He was raised in a Christian home etc., but as he got older, he turned from the Lord. There weren't any Christian fruits in his life, it was the opposite in fact. Of course, my parents were concerned. He painted houses for a living and one day he was painting an abortion clinic and he saw dead babies in the trash can. He fell on the floor and started crying. He called my Dad and said "I want to come back to Jesus." Today, he is an Army chaplain.

Not everyone's Christian walk is the same. Your daughter might very well be angry at God over the death of her brother. God is big enough to take it. I don't know what the status of your daughter's salvation is. Only God does. But, as for what your church is teaching, I see their point, but the Christian walk is dynamic, not static. We should all be moving closer to godliness, but sometimes, especially in circumstances like this, we might not. This does not mean that we have lost our salvation, we are simply being human.

Don't give up on your daughter, because God hasn't given up on her.

I'd suggest reading A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis for some brutally honest reflection upon death.

[msjagcat777]

You have nothing to worry about if she sincerely accepted him when she was a little girl.
We ALL fall short of the glory of God. We all backslide too. Some more times than others.
I was genuinely saved at 14, but lived in homosexual lifestyle from teenage years to 38 (i am 41 now).
My point is, we can be saved but deluded by satan into things that are not of God. We can still have strongholds such as alcoholism, cigarettes, drugs, pornography, homosexuality, anti-God thinking ,etc. and still be a child of God. God is faithful and will be with us through all the negative, unholy times in our lives.

We are all an unfinished product until we get to heaven. God is like a potter, and he is continually making and molding us into men and women that we should be.
Your daughter is going through a difficult in in her life, especially going to college, which is very influential place in promoting secularism. The young are the most influenced. Even Christians can be influenced into the things not of God... if they are not grounded in the Word and spiritually discerning.

Most definitely PRAY for her daily. Lift her up to the Lord daily and ask the Lord to show her the correct path in life...and her major.
I say that because MOST Humanities teachers are NOT Christians. If she does major in this, maybe someday she can be the light in the darkness at her college.

I would strike up a causal conversation with her and get around to mentioning the Lord. I would question her on where she thinks she stands with the Lord.
Ask her if she knows what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus, and if she is saved. If she hesitates on this, I would ask her if she would like to be sure and lead her into the sinners prayer.

If that is a failure, then she is most likely really not saved, or she has become hard-hearted. In any case, pray for her and have others pray for her too.

I am going through something similar with my daugher. My daughter is 23 and just got her AA.. Proud of her there, but she is involved in a cult. A 'Yahweh' cult, that thinks all Christians got God's and Jesus's name all wrong. I am seriously wondering if she was really ever saved. Then again, I was in delusion for years thinking that everybody was wrong...that you couldn't be in a monogamous homosexual relationship and be totally living for the Lord.
Believe me,
satan can send a delusional spirit to oppress christians!

[TomT]

I have prayed for you and your daughter - that God, thru the Holy Spirit will soften her heart and pull her back into fellowship with Christ Jesus -and with her family.

As the previous poster stated - assuming your daughter previously accepted Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior - while she may be currently outside the will of God for her life, her salvation is not taken away.

God promises that He will never forsake those who have trusted in Christ Jesus alone for salvation (John 10:27-29; Romans 8; Heb. 13: 5-6).

Our daily actions, (and we all sin daily), are not tied to our salvation - at least not in the sense you are concerned about.

[Writesinme]

Hello Annie--

The Bible teaches us that nothing will pluck us from the Lord's hands! His sheep know His voice.

Here's what stood out to me about your post--your daughter says Christ lives in her heart and she knows it. Praise God! :clap Your daughter is in college and at an age when many young people question their faith and experiment with other belief systems. Your daughter is holding onto Christ. Again, praise God!

As for her saying that she doesn't get anything out of going to church, well...there are other Christians who feel that way, too. Sadly, many churchs are slipping away from sound doctrine...that, plus the politics and other things that go on in the church, are making it harder for people to find God there.

Keep praying for your daughter...and keep communication open. I'd find ways to bring the Lord into conversations. I.E.--you see a shocking story on the news...shake your head and say, "What do you think God feels when He sees things like that?" You see a gorgeous sunset...sigh and say, "How can people look at that and say there's no God?"

Be casual, but be intentional...this will help you gauge where she is spiritually and will help keep her talking about the Lord.

You sound like a great and loving mom!

[Benja32one]

:(: I have a daughter who is 18. She accepted the Lord at age 5, and asked to be baptised at age 11. She was raised in Awana, Church, Christian school, etc. Through her Jr. High and Hi-school years she showed a lot of fruit spiritually. Liked church, youth group, journaled read her Bible etc.

At age 17 her older brother died (just 17 months ago). They were 16 months apart. From that time she won't really talk about his death. Has stopped going to church (except by force, because she still lives at home) and is becoming very worldly. She is 18, almost 19 now and just plain says church does nothing for her and tries to get out of going almost every Sunday. She is not on drugs, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, is sexually pure (so far), but has a lot of unsaved friends she is hanging around with and doesn't seem to be fruitful in anything right now and doesn't even feel badly about not going to church. She says Christ is in her heart, She knows it, and she doesn't need church or "organized religion". She has no other Christian fellowship coming from anywhere right now and doesn't desire it.

She attends a local community college here and is also taking a lot of real secular classes like human sexuality, women's studies, and of course psychology. She is getting her AA in humanities. We couldn't afford the Bible school she wanted to go to before our son died.

Well I am worried, because of her attitude lately about God. She seems mad at God right now, and I can't seem to reach her.....and I have this real fear that if she should die, I wouldn't be totally sure if she was saved. My heart tells me she is, but our church is starting to preach this "If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord AT ALL.....that scares the heck out me really.

I know my son who died was certainly saved, but he did some typical bad 19 year old stunts, but also confessed and felt badly about them.

My daughter just seems plan cold and distance.

My question is.....I know she was sincere as a child when she accepted the Lord and we saw fruit of that.

But now I wonder. I've always believed once saved always saved, even if one stumbles and falls away for a time....but now with this new teaching, it scares me.

I'm to emotional to look at this logical now, because I'm still grieving my son.

I was just wondering what some of your thought here are?

Anyone have teens that have "fallen away", yet you do believe they are truly saved?....or teens going thru a real "dry time".

....and what about this "If He is not Lord OF all, He is not Lord AT all" concept.

Is that really biblical? Some say it is. (biblically I can't argue that right now).

Please help me in this. I feel so vunerable and even spiritually attacked lately, because of this issue. She is oldest child now and I feel obsessed with having to know where she stands spiritually.

Annie. :wave
God give you His peace. Two years ago, we lost my 43 ry old stepson to the same cancer Lance Armstrong has/had. My wife is still nearly unconsolable, though she has two other children who are both christians. I had the pleasure of being there in the hospital and seeing Ricky gloriously saved before he went home shortly after. My wife was raised in the Nazarene church, and has a hard time believing in security of the believer. My mother's
Bible class began praying for me 28 years before I got back in fellowship with the Lord. Think of it! 28 years. I knew I was a child of God, but was in sin.
Thank Jesus that He knows the end from the beginning! Of course, I DID NOT HAVE REAL ASSURANCE during the time I was out of fellowship, but God was
onto me all over the world, literally...I was a transport pilot. The idea that you have to make Jesus the Lord is ludicrous. HE IS LORD NO MATTER WHAT HIS FOLLOWERS DO. Christians are either IN or OUT of fellowship, the last use of 'backsliding' is in the O.T. Many quote the John 14 mansions passage, but never read the context in the 13th chapter. try it and see just who the Lord was speaking to. Keep praying, praying and more praying! God is able. John 10.27-28. I will pray also. :nod

[goodboy]

Read the passeages below:

Luk 8:5 The sower went forth to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden under foot, and the birds of the heaven devoured it.
Luk 8:6 And other fell on the rock; and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture.
Luk 8:7 And other fell amidst the thorns; and the thorns grew with it, and choked it.
Luk 8:8 And other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit a hundredfold. As he said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him what this parable might be.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to the rest in parables; that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among the thorns, these are they that have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 And that in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The ONLY group (by the way side) that was not saved in the parable were the ones who did not beleive. The other groups (the rock, thorns and good ground) are all saved. The ONLY difference between the last three groups is how pleasent their life will be on earth and the rewards they will receive in Heaven.

Hope this helps.

Goodboy

[sixfingers]

Annie. :):


Bless you heart, I know the pain and concern you are going through. I have a word of encouragement as well as some insight for you.


I too was raised in a Christian home and came to know Christ as my personal Saviour early on. During my teen years, I too fell out of fellowship with God and into a lifestyle of sin. I cannot tell you whether or not my salvation was secure at that point, but this is not the word I want to get across to you.

For years I lived as I pleased. I did some pretty terrible things. And I know my parents were heartbroken. However, my parents never stopped loving me. They did not approve of my lifestyle but I KNEW they loved me. My mom carried an enormous burden for me and prayed over me continuously. One day she called me into her room and told me that the burden was too heavy for her to carry any longer. She told me that as much as she loved me and wanted me to come back to God, she knew that God Himself loved me more and desired it more than she ever could. She said she feared for me, but that she was turning me over to God and leaving that burden with Him.

In my mind I was thinking :freaked , but I tried to ignore it.

For years I continued down the path of my choosing, but in the back of my mind, I knew God was God I just resisted Him in my life. One night me and the friends in my band were sitting around discussing life, death, universe, God etc....and one of them says to me...."hey, your dad is a minister, lets go talk to him about this stuff" :): I resisted that notion because I didn't want to give them any false presumptions I might actually be considering God. Then another one said, "yeah! I want to hear what he's got to say about this too". Well, eventually I caved in and we went.

We went, and sat in the living room and my dad laid out the Gospel to us that I had believed in during my youth. There really was not any grand revelation to me, BUT what was different, was that I felt convicted for the first time in a long time.

My friends went home and I retreated to my room. I was troubled in mind and heart. I wrestled with God for hours about this, and finally yielded. I had been visited by the risen Saviour alone in my room, and knew I needed Him in my life. Peace came over me like never before, the burdens of my sin literally rolled away. Praise God!

The next morning there was much celebration when I told my parents. My friends called on the phone one by one over the course of the day, each telling the same story. Alone in their rooms, convicted by the Holy Spirit and being met by the risen Lord!


God loves your daughter Annie. He loves her with a love that is greater than any love you could muster. I think the course I took broke ME in a way that allowed God to be greater in my life. I don't know if I had died during that time if my salvation was secure, but I do know this. God is in control. He knows your burden for your daughter. He understands the concern of a Parent for a child. He knows what its like to loose a child to death. He carried your daughters sins to the cross with Him. He knows her heart and where she is, and what shes doing. Trust in your heavenly Father. He is familiar with all that you are going through :): Trust in His infinite wisdom and lay your burdens on Him. Surrender your daughter to Him. He is able to see you through, and He is able to bring your daughter back into fellowship with Himself in ways that only He can.


Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I am a living testimony to this truth. Don't give up, just simply trust that God is in control and will bring it about in His time. God has a way of making it easier to give in to Him, than it is to keep running. :):

I will be praying for you and your daughter Annie. :hug


Blessings!

[nooneuno]

You have nothing to worry about if she sincerely accepted him

:nod

[BHiles]

I could offer a theological examination of the issue, but that is not what you need at the moment. The best thing that I can do is offer the story of my brother. He was raised in a Christian home etc., but as he got older, he turned from the Lord. There weren't any Christian fruits in his life, it was the opposite in fact. Of course, my parents were concerned. He painted houses for a living and one day he was painting an abortion clinic and he saw dead babies in the trash can. He fell on the floor and started crying. He called my Dad and said "I want to come back to Jesus." Today, he is an Army chaplain.

Not everyone's Christian walk is the same. Your daughter might very well be angry at God over the death of her brother. God is big enough to take it. I don't know what the status of your daughter's salvation is. Only God does. But, as for what your church is teaching, I see their point, but the Christian walk is dynamic, not static. We should all be moving closer to godliness, but sometimes, especially in circumstances like this, we might not. This does not mean that we have lost our salvation, we are simply being human.

Don't give up on your daughter, because God hasn't given up on her.

I'd suggest reading A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis for some brutally honest reflection upon death.

Good advice. :thumb

[Patty T]

Annie. :):


Bless you heart, I know the pain and concern you are going through. I have a word of encouragement as well as some insight for you.


I too was raised in a Christian home and came to know Christ as my personal Saviour early on. During my teen years, I too fell out of fellowship with God and into a lifestyle of sin. I cannot tell you whether or not my salvation was secure at that point, but this is not the word I want to get across to you.

For years I lived as I pleased. I did some pretty terrible things. And I know my parents were heartbroken. However, my parents never stopped loving me. They did not approve of my lifestyle but I KNEW they loved me. My mom carried an enormous burden for me and prayed over me continuously. One day she called me into her room and told me that the burden was too heavy for her to carry any longer. She told me that as much as she loved me and wanted me to come back to God, she knew that God Himself loved me more and desired it more than she ever could. She said she feared for me, but that she was turning me over to God and leaving that burden with Him.

In my mind I was thinking :freaked , but I tried to ignore it.

For years I continued down the path of my choosing, but in the back of my mind, I knew God was God I just resisted Him in my life. One night me and the friends in my band were sitting around discussing life, death, universe, God etc....and one of them says to me...."hey, your dad is a minister, lets go talk to him about this stuff" :): I resisted that notion because I didn't want to give them any false presumptions I might actually be considering God. Then another one said, "yeah! I want to hear what he's got to say about this too". Well, eventually I caved in and we went.

We went, and sat in the living room and my dad laid out the Gospel to us that I had believed in during my youth. There really was not any grand revelation to me, BUT what was different, was that I felt convicted for the first time in a long time.

My friends went home and I retreated to my room. I was troubled in mind and heart. I wrestled with God for hours about this, and finally yielded. I had been visited by the risen Saviour alone in my room, and knew I needed Him in my life. Peace came over me like never before, the burdens of my sin literally rolled away. Praise God!

The next morning there was much celebration when I told my parents. My friends called on the phone one by one over the course of the day, each telling the same story. Alone in their rooms, convicted by the Holy Spirit and being met by the risen Lord!


God loves your daughter Annie. He loves her with a love that is greater than any love you could muster. I think the course I took broke ME in a way that allowed God to be greater in my life. I don't know if I had died during that time if my salvation was secure, but I do know this. God is in control. He knows your burden for your daughter. He understands the concern of a Parent for a child. He knows what its like to loose a child to death. He carried your daughters sins to the cross with Him. He knows her heart and where she is, and what shes doing. Trust in your heavenly Father. He is familiar with all that you are going through :): Trust in His infinite wisdom and lay your burdens on Him. Surrender your daughter to Him. He is able to see you through, and He is able to bring your daughter back into fellowship with Himself in ways that only He can.


Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I am a living testimony to this truth. Don't give up, just simply trust that God is in control and will bring it about in His time. God has a way of making it easier to give in to Him, than it is to keep running. :):

I will be praying for you and your daughter Annie. :hug


Blessings!

I know this was meant for the original poster, but I can't even begin to tell you how very blessed and enouraged I am right now - eyes filled with tears - as our 18 year old son is in a similar situation. God has spoken to me through your post and I am so very, very greatful. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and His faithfulness to you. He really is an amazing God and Father. May He richly bless you brother.

Patty

[carmen]

I am greiving with you, sister. It is so hard to see our children make choices we know will hurt them and/or draw them away from God. But let me echo the testimonies of others in this thread, and pray it gives you hope. I too accepted Christ young, turned to a life of sin for several years. God never let me rest, though; I never knew peace in those years. He called and drew and pulled me. I came back to Him, not without some stumbling along the way, but nonetheless I returned fully to Him.

Over and over I have heard testimonies similiar to mine with those that accepted Christ young. I'm not sure what causes that with so many, though not with all :confused. But it happens quite a bit, I think.

Anyway, one thing I believe beyond doubt, the prayers of my mother before she passed away when I 12, and the prayers of my grandmother that she continues to offer up for me, have played a major role in my life and love of God. The prayers of the righteous avails much; Luke 18 talks about the widow that wore out the judge with her petitions and so won her way. I have resolved to do that for my son, and you can do the same for your daughter. Call on every prayer resource you have--a prayer chain at church, the prayer forum here, family members, etc. God will move in your daughters life, even if it doesn't show for a while.

Praying for you and for her, sis :hug

[hapimom98]

:hug Annie,

Your precious daughter is grieving and needs to do so......I am sure, from the sounds of it, she IS mad at God. But you know what? God is big enough to handle it. :): He will get her through this. I don't know how long it will take.....but He is faithful.

I just wanted to add one more thing, I always struggled with wondering if the times I was backslidden in the past if that meant I "really wasn't saved"......not that long ago a pastor preached on something similar and he shared something that has really helped me. He shared that when we are born-again, we are born into two circles: the circle of relationship with the Father and the circle of fellowship with the Father.

Once we are born-again, we are His children. Just like with our earthly parents, we are ALWAYS their children, no matter what we do. It can't be undone. So, we are born into the position of being His child.

However, as His children, we can fall out of FELLOWSHIP with Him.....just like we can fall out of fellowship with our earthly parents. That is what is happening with your daughter........she is out of fellowship with you, and with the Father. Is she still your daughter?

Yes.

Just like Benja32one shared, we are either IN fellowship or OUT of fellowship with the Lord, but we are ALWAYS His children.

God bless you. :hug

[suz]

Thank you sixfingers,
I sit here tears flowing because your post spoke to my heart. My daughter is very much like you were and struggling so much. Away from church, fellowship with other believers, backslidden and so very unhappy. I believe she is saved, but she just seems like a little lost lamb, off the path and the future just seems hopeless to her.

I said to her last night, "Do you think it might be possible that God is waiting for you to turn back to Him and when you do , maybe He will bring about a change from your present circumstances. She said, "Turning back to God doesn't mean that I will be successful in life". I said, "No, but He will help you find happiness". She then shut down the conversation. (She is 22, has quit school for the second time and is now struggling from job to job. Wants to be a singer, and says that nothing else will work for her. If she cant be a singer she will just be a loser and bitter for the rest of her life.)
I have prayed for her for 5 years, have carried this burden for her and I too amy weary like your mother was. Sometimes I feel like giving up and sometimes I get mad at God, because things havent changed. This is the heartbreak of my life, yet I know that God is good and He loves her infinately more than I do and He wants what is best for her. We just need to hang on to God's promises and continue to pray.
Suz

[Jacob]

I believe in the eternal security of the believer, and that this is just as much as a gift of God’s grace as salvation itself. We are not saved by God’s grace and then kept by our good works.

None of us submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ flawlessly every day. The concept of “if Jesus is not Lord of all, he is not Lord at all…” was a way to counteract the teaching of "easy believeism" - which in essence teaches that anyone who makes a profession of faith is saved regardless of living a life that is contrary.

The apostle Paul wrote in Colossians: “And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven,...”

Those who were reconciled to God continued in the faith,...not shifting from the hope of the gospel. It does not mean that we keep our salvation through our faithfulness. It means that our faithfulness is evidence of salvation. What we now call eternal security, the church in earlier years would call the “perseverance of the saints.”

In Matthew 12, Jesus made distinctions between saved and unsaved people. Those who "produce good fruit" verses "those who produce bad fruit." He states that anyone who does God’s will “are my brother, sister, and mother.”

From there, He goes on to tell the parable of the sower in Chapter 13. He explains that the seed of the Gospel message sometimes “falls on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."

Thus, some people profess faith, seem to make a good start, but later they fizzle out...usually due to some adversity- from which they become bitter. In the following passage, Jesus talks about the wheat and the tares....to illustrate how unsaved people resemble saved people at times to the point where they can be hard to distinguish.

This is probably not the kind of information that you wanted to hear. However, I never want to assume that someone is saved simply because they prayed a prayer years ago. False professions do happen, and in my personal experience, it can happen frequently to children of Godly parents who were raised in good Christian homes and heard the Gospel all their lives while growing up. Why this happens is a mystery to me - and probably many others as well.

Not knowing your daughter, I would say that she could be saved but in rebellion, but she would come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit to bring her to confession of sin. Or, she might fall into the category of one where the seed fell on the rocky soil, and the death of your son is the "scorching of the sun" i.e., the adversity that causes her to fall away because she has no real root to sustain her. It could also the means whereby it is revealed that maybe her faith was not real and therefore it can be dealt with while there is still time.

I don't want to discourage anyone by assuming the worst. I just don't want to give anyone false assurance of salvation and then find themselves in a Christless eternity someday when God might be using the recent tragedy as a way to bring her to true faith if need be. Jesus gave a process of restoration to a sinning believer. In Matthew 18:15-20, a person living in disobedience to the Lord is to be confronted with their sin and the exhortation to repent. If they fail the process of confrontation and church discipline, Jesus said to regard them as unbelievers. Such a process has the potential of bringing them to conviction and repentance.

[sixfingers]

Patty, I am trusting God and praying with both You and Annie for God to restore your children to the Lord. If God can form worlds with the sound of His voice, He can render the hearts of our children into His palms of His mighty hands. How unspeakable is His name!!!!

I will be praying and believing with you both for this.

May His Grace and tender mercy comfort your hearts as we trust and believe in Him for great things!

[Annieof5]

I am so touched by all the replies.

Actually overwhelmed by the great encouragement and wise counsel. I need to read each post again, but don't have time at the moment.

I so appreciate all your prayers. We have a wonderful, Holy, Righteous, God whose Grace and Mercy is sufficient for all.......I just wish my emotions wouldn't be so entangled in this situation. My fears has gotten the best of me concerning this subject.

The Truths displayed here have blessed and comforted my aching heart.

I'll be back later.

Annie

[sixfingers]

Suz,

please dont give up! This past mothers day, I reminded my mom about that coverstation we had so many years ago, and thanked her for loving me enough to just trust God with my life. I believe that God is working in mothers, and fathers lives through these trials as well. I don't doubt that God was doing a work in my mothers life during that time. Teaching her to fully trust in God with something she cared for dearly, me. Things may not happen over night. I was away from God for over 13 years, but God brought me back to the fold.

Don't give up Suz, take hold of His hand and trust and lean on Him. He wants to carry that burden for you.


I sense that there are many others reading who may have children who have gone astray. Don't give up moms, dads. God is a God of miracles. He is in the business of changing hearts and lives. Hang in there. He's with you, and desires your full trust as much as He does your kids.

Blessings!

[Pendragon]

I would talk to the pastor and maybe even see if there is someone that is christian and works or is experiencing the process of mortality like a Christian nurse or doctor or even a cancer patient that is strong in faith and could maybe meet for coffee or dinner one evening with you and her and could bring up the subject. We all know that it is G-d's will and that what ever purpose even if it was for him to die so you daughters faith would be tested as was JOB to let her build her faith stronger. G-d knows our heart and knows what she is going through. For me as a personal experience I when I was 15 lost my Grandfather then 5 months later my father and then another 6 months later my uncle whom I was very close to. The girl I was dating which was the only person in my life outside my mother left that I could even talk to found me to beome very angry so much so when we talked I found that I needed helpt that I wasn't and couldn't get help for in church. You see I was born into a jewish family one month before my grandfather died I decided that I was going to be a christian and would be baptised. My father and I aruged and he said if I did so I was no son of his and he and my family would disown me. My mother was more understanding and allowed me to do so. My father from that point would no longer talk to me even upon the day of his death He blamed me openly for my grandfathers death that because i turned from the jewish faith I was to be blamed for his broken heart resulting in his death. He never said it directly to me always to other family memebers around me which many acted as if I was dead also and talked about me in past tense or just as if I was not in the room. My mother and uncle were more understanding along with my girlfriend at the time whom encouraged me to come to christ. My uncle was though the only one besides my girlfriend I felt even comfortable talking with. My Grandfather died and I felt the guilt for that when My dad died he was in open heart surgery it was 10 days before my 16th birthday I said Dad I love you we need to talk he looked me in the eye and said He had nothing to say to me and get out of his room he went to surgery and 18 hours later died in the surgery. Again I felt the guilt as though it was my fault and began to question G-d why he would do this to me. Later down the roadsome months my uncle was killed by gunfire. I was then again totally devestated and was running out of people to talk to all the while asking G-d why and not getting any answers I became mad.. Mad at G-d the world everything around me. I would bursrt out in anger whioch scared my girlfriend and my mother for little things like a missing button on a jacket. I went to get help for this and while there my best guy friend who was also friends with me and my girlfriend well you guessed it the 2 found that the temtation was too great so after 3 yrs of dating and 5 yrs of freindship I further lost those relationships. Now many here will say suck it up and deal with it for an adult that is onething but for a 16 yr old kid that had never expereinced anything dieing other then one pet dog it was devestating. I retaliated very openly drinking drugs,even the occult you name it I did it. I was bound and determined I would get even with G-d and the world. Guess what through all the anger and the pain I found that G-d still loved me and I could be forgiven I found this out oddly enough after getting married and then divorced by the time I was 24. I became a single father and relizing that I loved my daughter and could never stop no matter what she ever did and vowing I would never allow what happened to me happen to her. Upon the divorce I went to my family's grave for the first time since thier deaths I screamed out and cried and even pounded the grave stones till my hands were bloody. I amde some peace with G-d that day but was still too ashamed to go back to church for some reason or another. I just couldn't go. I was the prodical son still and yet. In my case and very oddly enough as my daughter was in the bookstore I noticed on an endcap the book called Left Behind. I read it and everything else I could get my hands on about it I went through10 books in 2 weeks. I was totally consumed by it shortly after I was involved in reading this 9-11 happened I had been dreaming about some kind of war coming before then and seeing it happening before my eyes i knew G-d was working through me for this purpose he gave me a sign so to speak. Since I rededicated my life on hands and knees and repented for all I had done I have never lost the hunger for study and couldn't even imagine ever going back to my prodical life before. I found that for me maybe I didn't handle my anger the right way but through it all I wasn't killed or taken over by drugs or the occult nor was i arrested or jailed. G-d had his angles there for me and i guess in my heart I knew they were there. I don't take them for granted as i did before and have a sense of guidence always from G-d. My point is she has some choices she is and will be making through it all G-d will always be there and what ever I can do to glorify G-d now I do. I guess speaking from my own tesemony I hope it will give insite into her heart and mind to what she is maybe going through. I pray for her and for you that she doesn't go as deeply astray as I did I broke probly about every comandmnet during my period of anger I am just so glad we have a loving G-d that can forgive even me and if he can forgive me I know he can her too. May G-d bless you and yours and may she find peace by giving her pain to him to do something positive with

[Patty T]

Patty, I am trusting God and praying with both You and Annie for God to restore your children to the Lord. If God can form worlds with the sound of His voice, He can render the hearts of our children into His palms of His mighty hands. How unspeakable is His name!!!!

I will be praying and believing with you both for this.

May His Grace and tender mercy comfort your hearts as we trust and believe in Him for great things!


Amen and thank you brother for your prayers and encouraging words. I know God is teaching me (us) as well as we walk through this season with our son. I know He is well able - He is not a man that He should lie. He is a faithful God and I will trust Him.

Thank you again :hug

Patty

[LeahIA]

I'm living proof. I walked away when I was in my early 20's and it wasn't until I was almost 50 that I had a wake-up call and came back. My mother didn't live to see me turn around and God keeps bringing Proverbs 22:6 to my mind for myself and for my wayward son.


Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

When we're born of God, his adopted child, we cannot be "unborn".



Praying for peace for you and God's hand on your daughter.

[Annieof5]

I could offer a theological examination of the issue, but that is not what you need at the moment. The best thing that I can do is offer the story of my brother. He was raised in a Christian home etc., but as he got older, he turned from the Lord. There weren't any Christian fruits in his life, it was the opposite in fact. Of course, my parents were concerned. He painted houses for a living and one day he was painting an abortion clinic and he saw dead babies in the trash can. He fell on the floor and started crying. He called my Dad and said "I want to come back to Jesus." Today, he is an Army chaplain.


Praise God 70weeks, God is indeed patient.

I have the book "A Grief Observed" on hold this moment at the library.

Thank you.


Goodboy, Amazing scripture. I've heard that parable so often but never applied it to this situation. Yes, the scripture did bless me, thanks.



sixfingers, that was an amazing story. I cried through it. SOunds like there are many here who have had (or have) wayward children.

ALl thats been said is so comforting. I have told my daughter that I have given her over to God, I know I can't bear this burden alone....especially while I'm still grieving my son.


None of us submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ flawlessly every day. The concept of “if Jesus is not Lord of all, he is not Lord at all…” was a way to counteract the teaching of "easy believeism" - which in essence teaches that anyone who makes a profession of faith is saved regardless of living a life that is contrary.

Jacob, so true...I need to figure out why and how this Lord of all or not Lord at all, came about. It seems so cut and dry and black and white. I know God is not like that. The Scripture you posted was so helpful......and I'm well aware of those who "profess" yet don't believe. That is my burden right now, because I'm unsure of where she really stands with God.

[sandy111]

yep, God is big enough to take it!

maybe she feels she cant let loose on Him and tell God the truth.
(like being angry at him) its ok to cry, rage, and wail.
If she really loved her bro deeply, the pain will be deeper. she needs to get all that out, cause its all there.

and she needs to. God is not going to turn his back on her, he totatly understands her feelings and grief.

sounds like shes all locked up inside...

Bhiles you posted something in end times chat about honesty.
could you post that here ....its to do with that brutal honesty.
telling God everything. but you wrote it out and it made a real connection with me.
maybe it will help annie.

[pigdog]

and fell into terrible debauchery. But, I too was pulled back to the Lord.

[Bethshaya]

Jesus questioned God on what he needed to do and why....

Zachariah questioned God as well, so did Jonah..he even ran for it.

It is human to question God after something so hurtful.

The bible says that the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the Spirit. As long as she doesnt outright say that Christ was not the savior and deny's that God even exists, God will still understand her need to heal and understand His plan.

Give her time, she will be OK.

[coltrek]

Remember the prodigal son or I should say Remember the prodigal daughter............................in Luke 15:11-32

[Annieof5]

Give her time, she will be OK.

I feel that too, thanks so much.

yep, God is big enough to take it!

maybe she feels she cant let loose on Him and tell God the truth.
(like being angry at him) its ok to cry, rage, and wail.
If she really loved her bro deeply, the pain will be deeper. she needs to get all that out, cause its all there.

and she needs to. God is not going to turn his back on her, he totatly understands her feelings and grief.

sounds like shes all locked up inside...

Thanks Sandy. I think you are right. I have felt shes been all locked up too.

Everyones insights have been so helpful.

I feel more at peace right now and I feel more postitive. I know God doesn't want me living in fear of my daughters spiritual destiny. Another step of trust I guess.

Thanks all.

[Jacob]

Jacob, so true...I need to figure out why and how this Lord of all or not Lord at all, came about. It seems so cut and dry and black and white. I know God is not like that. The Scripture you posted was so helpful......and I'm well aware of those who "profess" yet don't believe. That is my burden right now, because I'm unsure of where she really stands with God.
I believe that true saving faith involves "turning from sin and turning to God." (Acts 26:19-20; 1 Thessalonians 1:9)

Paul wrote that the grace of God that brings salvation also "instructs us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly..." (Titus 2).

Thus, salvation does change our lives, and we are "new creatures in Christ."

I do not believe that Christians can be, or are required to be sinlessly perfect. But, I also believe that Christians cannot be comfortable and without conviction when they persist in any known sin. The Holy Spirit will do His work.

John knew that Christians would sin, that is why he wrote "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. My little children, I write these things that you do not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous." (1 John).

I understand your position of not knowing where she stands. My two went through the teen years also.

[Harley]

My question is.....I know she was sincere as a child when she accepted the Lord and we saw fruit of that.

But now I wonder. I've always believed once saved always saved, even if one stumbles and falls away for a time....but now with this new teaching, it scares me.

I'm to emotional to look at this logical now, because I'm still grieving my son.

I was just wondering what some of your thought here are?
Well, I hold to the once saved always saved... but beyond that, I'd say not to base your belief, your doctrine, your theology on andecdotal stories or experience.

Let Scripture dictate how you view reality and experiences... not the contrary.

[HillbillyWilli]

Annieof5
Love, for what is so different that you dont see your own past .

love, yours will see the love

hate=lost

[Harley]

HillbillyWilly,

At least you are consistent - I didn't understand your other posts either.