Is the ability to forgive essential for salvation?

[Jiggy37]

Matthew 6
14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.Matthew 18
21Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28"But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!' 29So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."We were having a discussion about this in chat this morning, and while I didn't go in thinking that it was a salvation matter, now I'm unsure. You know how I'm inquisitive and everything, so I tried to look at it from the other side, and I thought of this...

We hold that faith and repentance are the two necessary things we need for salvation, right? But repentance involves asking God to forgive us, and if we don't forgive others, then I almost have to believe that we don't at all understand the significance of God's forgiveness of our own sins--and if we don't even understand what we're asking for, how can we be asking for it?
Isn't it because we're Christians that we hold forgiveness up as so highly important (and rightfully so)? Right before salvation (for those of us who weren't saved at an extremely early age), we felt burdened by sin, and then felt that burden removed after starting a new life in Christ.

I think that forgiveness should be something that every last Christian in existence should know and understand, and so what I'm asking this:

Is it even possible to repent and ask forgiveness and be given it when we ourselves don't forgive others?

[frisian1970]

Are we saved through our forgiveness of sins? I don't see how.

[Patty T]

From a scriptural standpoint, I see forgiveness as a requirement, but also see the Holy Spirit as the One who helps or enables us to do it.

[Jiggy37]

Are we saved through our forgiveness of sins? I don't see how.What I mean is that in order for us to actually ask for forgiveness, we have to understand what we're asking for.

For example, a 1-year-old kid can't accept that Christ died for our sins on the cross because that kid doesn't know what it means to die, what sins are, what a cross is, etc.

So I have to understand what forgiveness is when I ask for it, or else I might as well be asking God for gluckentripometimaliselawsazees or some other made-up word.

But how can I understand what forgiveness is if I've never practiced it myself?

[Hootmon]

But how can I understand what forgiveness is if I've never practiced it myself? Forgiveness it giving up your right for revenge over a perceived wrong done to you.

You dont do it for THEM. You do it for YOU.

[Jiggy37]

Forgiveness it giving up your right for revenge over a perceived wrong done to you.

You dont do it for THEM. You do it for YOU.:confused
I'm not sure that the question of who it's being done for should matter in regards to whether it's essential for salvation.
Either way, though, it certainly does a lot for the one forgiving, but also for the one being forgiven... I know too much about that.

[frisian1970]

What I mean is that in order for us to actually ask for forgiveness, we have to understand what we're asking for.

For example, a 1-year-old kid can't accept that Christ died for our sins on the cross because that kid doesn't know what it means to die, what sins are, what a cross is, etc.

So I have to understand what forgiveness is when I ask for it, or else I might as well be asking God for gluckentripometimaliselawsazees or some other made-up word.

But how can I understand what forgiveness is if I've never practiced it myself?Sounds as though salvation is a comprehension matter?

[Jiggy37]

Sounds as though salvation is a comprehension matter?Well, yes, to some extent I think so. :confused
I seem to recall you either saying or sigging one time that while faith directs understanding, understanding also has to direct faith.

[frisian1970]

Well, yes, to some extent I think so. :confused
I seem to recall you either saying or sigging one time that while faith directs understanding, understanding also has to direct faith.


:tape Oops, yeah that was my great-grand Uncle's quote.

:doh


Will have to think on it.


Perhaps I disagree with him to an extent.

[Jiggy37]

Okay. :lol I was just surprised to see it coming from you.

[Benja32one]

[QUOTE=Jiggy37]We were having a discussion about this in chat this morning, and while I didn't go in thinking that it was a salvation matter, now I'm unsure. You know how I'm inquisitive and everything, so I tried to look at it from the other side, and I thought of this...

We hold that faith and repentance are the two necessary things we need for salvation, right? But repentance involves asking God to forgive us, and if we don't forgive others, then I almost have to believe that we don't at all understand the significance of God's forgiveness of our own sins--and if we don't even understand what we're asking for, how can we be asking for it?
Isn't it because we're Christians that we hold forgiveness up as so highly important (and rightfully so)? Right before salvation (for those of us who weren't saved at an extremely early age), we felt burdened by sin, and then felt that burden removed after starting a new life in Christ.

I think that forgiveness should be something that every last Christian in existence should know and understand, and so what I'm asking this:

Is it even possible to repent and ask forgiveness and be given it when we ourselves don't forgive others?[/QUOT
Jiggy37 :):
Matt. 6.12-15, is legal ground, that is forgiveness then was conditional upon a like spirit in us, however, the believer's ground of forgiveness is grace: on the basis of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, Ephesians 4.32 says we are to forgive others because we are forgiven. In the Sermon on the Mount the hearers were exhorted to forgive to become righteous, but Christians are righteousness in Christ, not resting on our own merits. :thumb :nod

[lookup]

I think that the ability to forgive is part of the Christ-like nature that God wants us to develop in ever-increasing measures as we grow to maturity in Him. There are many things in our lives that are just part of our "flesh," or of our "natural man," that we should be increasingly willing to put to death in order to take on characteristics associated with the spirit of God.

I do think one's salvation is at risk should they absolutely refuse to forgive someone, after the Holy Spirit has convicted them of God's desire that they do so. I also think that one's salvation is at risk if the Holy Spirit convicts them of a number of other behaviors that are not Christ-like, and that person refuses to repent.

We could debate at what point one would lose their salvation, and I would admit that I don't know when that would be. It's between the individual and God. But scriptures repeatedly warn us about the dangers of "hardening" one's heart to the voice of God. And those scriptures are not just directed to the sinner who has never asked forgiveness for their sins.

Hey, I want to be more like Jesus, don't you? This old human nature of mine needs to be crucified daily if I expect to take on any of our Lord's wonderful qualities.

If anybody would like some scripture by which I'm basing the above, let me know and I'll follow up in another post.

Edited to add the following observation:

Jiggy asked if the ABILITY to forgive is essential for salvation. I'd like to stress that the "ability" is not the same thing as the "willingness" to forgive. I believe it is Jesus who gives us the ability to overcome, as long as we are truly willing to seek and receive. It is someone's willingness to be obedient that I have addressed in my comments above. Sorry for any confusion.

[HeIsEnough]

Interesting question Jiggy. We are told we must forgive, in order for our heavenly Father to forgive us. That would be the direct answer. But it is also an answer that will take a path, and every christian must walk it. So yes, every christian must forgive, and every christian will forgive, even if they hold out for a period of time, it's just a matter of time.

[andy]

I think we are forgetting something. We are saved by grace, the grace of God through and by the blood of His Son Jesus. The act of forgiveness is a act of a person who has made Jesus their Lord and Savior. The growth of a person in Jesus takes time, it is a walk or journey, so to speak. A person is saved by their faith in Christ, then as they grow and mature in Him and God's word, they are convicted by the Holy Spirit and by God's word to forgive, love others, etc.

Imho, it is a process, a maturing, if you will. I do, however believe that a christian will forgive those who do wrong against them, but, and again I stress, it is a learning and maturing process....a growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. As we grow, we want to be like Him to do as Jesus commands us.

Anyway, this is my opinion. :wave

edited for spelling :doh

[MrJim]

Matthew 6
14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

When you are saved, all your sins are forgiven, past, present and future. I don't think that Jesus was saying that your salvation would be erased if you didn't forgive someone, salvation isn't mentioned in this verse. I think what it means is that your unforgiveness toward your brother interfers with your relationship with God. The only way to fix the situation would be to forgive your tresspasser, and restore your relationship with the Father.

[guitarrman45]

Imho, it is a process, a maturing, if you will. I do, however believe that a christian will forgive those who do wrong against them, but, and again I stress, it is a learning and maturing process....a growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. As we grow, we want to be like Him to do as Jesus commands us.

Anyway, this is my opinion.

___________________________________________________________________

I agree with you. Through the maturing, learning and growing process, of being Christlike, we aquire the gift of having unconditional love that enables us to freely forgive. Its the love and then the grace.

[Jiggy37]

Okay, it seems that most here are saying that it's not essential for salvation... which strikes me as odd considering how many here say they're Bible literalists. :confused


You know, in chat sometimes I joke around and nickname myself "More Literal Than Thou" (like holier-than-thou) for fun :lol, but to me that makes me think as well. If Matthew 6:14-15 isn't completely 100% literal in the sense that someone who refuses to forgive others will not be forgiven by the Father, then how do we know just which passages in the Bible are 100% literal? :confused

[HeIsEnough]

If Matthew 6:14-15 isn't completely 100% literal in the sense that someone who refuses to forgive others will not be forgiven by the Father


We are told we must forgive, in order for our heavenly Father to forgive us. That would be the direct answer.

Jiggy,

I may not be listed as a requirment, but it is clearly a commandment to me. I kind of view it as everything else that comes from the Holy Spirit. If you do not forgive, God will let you know and will proceed to convict you with all He can bring. That will bring forgiveness.

[blitzkreig]

Okay, it seems that most here are saying that it's not essential for salvation... which strikes me as odd considering how many here say they're Bible literalists. :confused Your understanding of what is and what isn't "literal" for this era needs to be honed ...

This has little to do with the topic at hand but addressing only your question of "literalists".

Do we sacrifice animals in a Temple today? That was literally in Scripture but is not for this our era (dispensation) is it? ... it was "Old Testament".

So a question for you Jiggy ... is Matthew 6:14-15 before or after the cross (the proper delineation of Old and New testament)?

That type of precision is required if one is "literal".

.

[RobinB]

Jiggy,

I may not be listed as a requirment, but it is clearly a commandment to me. I kind of view it as everything else that comes from the Holy Spirit. If you do not forgive, God will let you know and will proceed to convict you with all He can bring. That will bring forgiveness.


Sounds right to me. :nod

[blitzkreig]

Okay, it seems that most here are saying that it's not essential for salvation... which strikes me as odd ... More to the point of your observation. A quote I recently encountered in my study of the Book of Galations (from a book by C.R. Stam called Galatians vs. The Law).

Christ had died for them to justify them fully. Now they wanted to add to that,
and Paul called them foolish. They wanted to add law to grace - the dispensation of
the law of Moses to the dispensation of the unadulterated grace of God. That is
why their situation was so serious; it was deceptive.


You have heard people say, "Yes, salvation is by grace, but we must do our
part." What is our part? We have sinned every day of our lives. We have sinned in
thought and word and deed. Do you suppose that by doing a few good deeds
(which we ought to do anyway) we would add something to the mighty redemptive
work of the Lord Jesus Christ in paying for our sins? Good is what we ought to do;
do we expect credit for it?

.

[blitzkreig]

I may not be listed as a requirement, but it is clearly a commandment to me. I kind of view it as everything else that comes from the Holy Spirit. If you do not forgive, God will let you know and will proceed to convict you with all He can bring. That will bring forgiveness.I want to agree very strongly with your comment. That kind of conviction is sometimes "life defining"... Not something one wants to "invite" head on.

Do a simple word search in an on line version of the Bible for the word "chasten" or "chastens" ... I speak with David who in the Psalms said Psa 118:18 Jehovah has sorely chastened me; but He has not given me over to death.

.

[CountryBumpkin]

I do believe that it a sign of growth. In the beginning I found it very hard to forgive anyone that hurt me, but as I have spiritually matured, I have found it easier and easier to forgive. To me it is like as I have come to know God's character and as I am being conformed to Christ's image, He has taught me how to forgive so that it comes natually now. I also believe that if we have unforgiveness in our hearts, God will not hear our prayers. I am sure that there is a scripture that says something like that. Now when someone hurts me I straight away give it to the Lord and forgive that person and pray for that person, and I can testify that it is liberating, for it allows me to focus on God and not have something niggling me. I hope you know what I mean.

[Pagal]

Jiggy actually was talking to me about this in chat. I told him of a situation I have in my family.

We are all christian ( i hope). My grandfather died and left the house to one of his 3 children who was single and didn't have a family. His son was wealthy (has a house, a summer home, a boat and 2 cadillac's) and his other daughter had a home and family. Their parents made arrangements to leave the house to their single daughter since she agreed to care for them in their old age and sickness. They did not want to be in a nursing home. She did with the upmost care and adoration for her parents.

Originally this was done many years ago. Years later, while both parents were still alive (but ailing) my mother who is the other daughter, lost her husband. My mother (and two children , one is me!) all went to live with my grandparents since we were in a hardship with the loss of our father. We all loved and cared for them. My grandmother was very ill, bedridden for years with a terminal illness. We all cared for her. Meanwhile, my grandfather asked my mother to stay permentaly to help him care for my grandmother. It was too much for him. My mother decided to stay there with us (2 kids) so She SOLD her house and built an addition onto her fathers small home to accomidate us. I'd say over 50,000 worth.

So we all cared and lived together for almost 17 years. The single daughter eventually moved in also. My grandfather never told his son about the arrangment becuase he was a bit "touchy" and they had a few instances where he didn't come around for years over some small differences of opinion so I think my grandfather hoped he'd just settle down about it when the time came. My grandfather always offered Love and an open door. No questions asked.

So my mom, my brother and I, and my Aunt all lived there taking care of my grandfather which we all ADORED. He was the most wonderful Christlike man . Well he died 3 years ago and boy, my uncle was SHOCKED he didn't get a 1/3 and was furious. There was alot of words exchanged between him and his sisters and he accused them of "sucking their dad dry" and all sorts of ludicrist accusations. He was ROBBED of his inheritance. The house was still in my Aunts name even though my mother had invested so much $$ into the house. It was never an issue. My aunt and mother both lived their now and probably always would. His sisters LOVED their parents and were literal full time nurses for their mom who sufferred from Huntington's disease (bro never really helped ) and then their Dad was ill for 2 years and they were ROUND the clock nurses. Never complained. They loved him.

So, the Brother has not spoken to them in 3 years. In the meantime, my mother and her sister were diagnosed with Huntington's disease. They are dying. Same sickness their mother had. They have reached out to their brother and told them they love him, forgive him........

I wrote a letter to everyone in the family telling them this is TOTALLY displeasing to the lord and copied the article of Forgivness from the PDL. Pleading with them to see this is not the heart of the Lord but the workings of the enemy and we are all in disobedience to what his word says is CLEAR to LOVE.......forgive. Apparently they see that have done nothing wrong.

So, despite everything my Aunt called her brother last week and said Perhaps we can talk this out. I want you to know I love you.

His reply? knowing his sisters are BOTH dying?

No..........I dont' think their's anything that needs to be said. Enough was said arelady. Goodbye

Now............what concerns me and grieves me........is HOW HOW Could this man know Jesus YET HATE HIS OWN SISTERS?

The bible says clearly..........you can not?? :confused

I love my uncle dearly. I'm shocked at these events. I've written a letter but no result. I worry about his soul honestly

[CountryBumpkin]

When we allow our emotions and bitterness to rule our minds, we are capable of the most awful things. My MIL never accepted me and through a argument did not speak to us for two years before she died all alone in her apartment. She was only 57. Sorting our her things I discovered that she did not have one photo of my kids, only her other grandchildren, plus she left what money she had to her other son and the guide dogs. I was backslidden and I did not feel much sadness over her passing.
Well, in the last few years, my husband and I have separated. The Lord has been dealing with me and changing me and one night I was on the patio watching the sunset and all these memories started filtering through of my MIL and how I treated her. I could have tried harder to be pleasant, or include her more in our family etc. I was no light in the darkness, no witness. I also still had a lot of unforgiveness in my heart towards her.
The tears started rolling as I felt so unworthy and repented of my unforgiveness and asked God to forgive me the grief that I had caused. It was an incredibly cleansing experience as I entered into His rest.
I am forever thankful for His grace and mercy.
What I am saying is that no matter how bitter we may feel, we need to give it to the Lord for His yoke is light, and He will work it out.

[Benja32one]

Okay, it seems that most here are saying that it's not essential for salvation... which strikes me as odd considering how many here say they're Bible literalists. :confused


You know, in chat sometimes I joke around and nickname myself "More Literal Than Thou" (like holier-than-thou) for fun :lol, but to me that makes me think as well. If Matthew 6:14-15 isn't completely 100% literal in the sense that someone who refuses to forgive others will not be forgiven by the Father, then how do we know just which passages in the Bible are 100% literal? :confused
"When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, take every word at its primary, ordinary literal meaning UNLESS the context, studied in light of RELATED PASSAGES, axiomatic or fundamental truths indicate clearly otherwise." :thumb

When you ask a doctrinal question on this verse, you must go to the rest of the N.T. to find out what it says on forgiveness. The question is impossible to answer as a literalist when confined to this verse. (2 Peter 1.20-21 Your isolation of the verse, if it alone decides your belief, contravenes this.) The other principle is the time period. This verse makes perfect sense under law, but Ephesians 4.32 places the emphasis on AFTER WE ARE SAVED. In the Sermon on the Mount a person does something in order that "ye may be the children of God, or enter the kingdom" therefore it does not apply to a believer under the rule of GRACE. This sermon is KINGDOM LAW, perfectly reasonable in that context, (and Christians should strive to live godly) remembering that Romans 8.4 says the law is fulfilled in the Christian who walks after the Holy Spirit. Matthew 11.28 is the turning point from Jesus' message of law to one of discipleship. This is where "rightly dividing the truth" (2 Tim 2.2) needs to be observed.
:thumb :nod

[Candi]

I've been wondering about this too.

I thought I had forgiven others in my past, but once I came face to face with them again, realized that I didn't forgive them. :sigh

Not sure if it's a wall I've put up to protect myself, or bitterness that has set in. We can forgive, but it's awfully hard to forget. Especially when it has caused us great pain and effects our lives today.

Does forgiveness mean we go on as if nothing ever happened, and enter into the relationship again? What if the person doesn't nor ever wanted a relationship?

I'm going through a similar situation like Country bumpkin described with her mil. I found the only way I can have a "family life" and forgive is to just stay away. If for any reason, to keep myself from abuse and being mistreated.

Is'nt forgiveness and reconsiliation two different things? What if the other doesn't want a relationship in the first place, let alone restored?

Does true forgiveness mean it no longer hurts?

[CountryBumpkin]

Candi, I don't think that we as humans can forget or that the hurt ever really goes away, but I have found that the more you seek God and the more he changes you, you begin to see things as He does.
Another thing that has happened to me is that seven years ago I got onto an argument with my youngest brother who is gay and lives with my elderly mother, and after that my mom said that she just wants live in peace and I must not visit again, She cut me off and my heart was torn in two. Even now speaking of it hurts me, but I have forgiven her completely. It is hard to explain but God shows me my attitudes which I need to repent of and after that it is easier to forgive someone.
Maybe it is easier for me because I now live overseas and have not seen my mother for 6 years. Actually, it is not really because I have made it a point to phone her periodically and it still hurts.
I do believe that separation is sometimes necessary and essential.
If you feel that you need to stay away, then do so.
Take it to God in prayer.
:hug

[Medic911]

My opinion:

Like many other aspects of the Christian's life, the ability to forgive is essential to our own spiritual well-being and contentment, and is a sort of outward reflection of our salvation.

That said, we are imperfect creatures, even after accepting Christ. We may be set free of the bondage of sin, but we continue to struggle against it for all our lives.

When Jesus informed His disciples that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven, we are told that they were astonished, and asked Him how anyone could then be saved!
He replied, "with God, all things are possible." (I can almost imagine Him giving a sly wink and a smile, as He said this)

I believe He was hinting at the Grace which would soon be offered as a result of His death on the cross.

Jesus knew that we are all sinners, and that it was only by His blood that we could be saved.

The Bible lists many people who will never enter the gates of Heaven. Adulterers, drunkards, fornicators, thieves, et cetera. Yet (just to use one example) Jesus also told us that anyone who lusts is an adulterer, having already committed it in his heart!

Who then can be saved?!

With God, all things are possible.

Is Grace then, an excuse for us to freely sin?
Paul addressed this in the book of Romans:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. "
Rom 6:1-6

[Heavensent]

After I came back to Christ a few years ago I know I had been forgiven. However, I still had unforgiveness in my heart for my mother. The Holy Spirit worked on me for that one. He showed me that my unforgiveness was keeping me away from all the blessings that God wanted for me.

I sat there and cried out to the Lord. I knew that He had forgiven so much in me. Who did I think I was that I couldn't forgive my mother? I felt that if I couldn't forgive her that I had no right to ask for forgiveness. The day I forgave her I felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. A weight I had carried for over 30 years.

While my relationship with my mother is still rocky sometimes. I don't have all the hatred in my heart anymore. I truly forgave her for all I felt she had done to me. I feel that my relationship with God is much better for it.

[HeIsEnough]

The day I forgave her I felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. A weight I had carried for over 30 years.



John 8:36
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


:hug

[Heavensent]

Thanks HeIsEnough.

[JoelH]

We were having a discussion about this in chat this morning, and while I didn't go in thinking that it was a salvation matter, now I'm unsure. You know how I'm inquisitive and everything, so I tried to look at it from the other side, and I thought of this...

We hold that faith and repentance are the two necessary things we need for salvation, right? But repentance involves asking God to forgive us, and if we don't forgive others, then I almost have to believe that we don't at all understand the significance of God's forgiveness of our own sins--and if we don't even understand what we're asking for, how can we be asking for it?
Isn't it because we're Christians that we hold forgiveness up as so highly important (and rightfully so)? Right before salvation (for those of us who weren't saved at an extremely early age), we felt burdened by sin, and then felt that burden removed after starting a new life in Christ.

I think that forgiveness should be something that every last Christian in existence should know and understand, and so what I'm asking this:

Is it even possible to repent and ask forgiveness and be given it when we ourselves don't forgive others?


Hi Jiggy,

Sorry for butting up this late - a month after the most recent reply to this thread, but you may be interested to see what Dr Charles Stanley explains this message of forgiveness.

Access it through this link (there is an hour-long video sermon and he explains the key to the passages you are having problems with):

The Landmine of Unforgiveness (http://www.intouch.org/intouch/site.show_page?p_id=77546&p_id_from=36079899&p_current_date=02%2F20%2F2005)

YBIC,

Joel