Do you know anyone who claimed to be "saved" but now claims not to be?

[BigDave]

I'm not at all looking to start a OSAS debate ... there is an OSAS debate going in apologetics for anyone so inclined to debate that issue ...

But there is something I was thinking about ... my brother was asking me about OSAS and I shared with him the scriptures used by both sides of the debate and explained to him why I firmly believe that we cannot lose our salvation ...

That got me thinking ...

I know plenty of people who claim that they were "Christian" and who now claim not to believe in anything ... but when I ask, "well, did you ever ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior", the answer is "no". Ok, you were never saved to begin with ... next question.

Well, there is one friend who says, "well, of course I did - numerous times". He was raised in a solid, fundamental church. There's no question that he would have understood salvation, who Jesus is, etc. The optimist in me says that he really is saved and like the prodigal son, is going to one day get sick and tired of living in that pig pen and will say, "I will arise and go to my father". The pessimist (but still hopelessly OSAS) says that he was never saved to begin with. He's a dear friend and one for whom I pray, though not nearly as often as I ought to.

So my question for fellow OSASers, what would be your opinion on someone in this state? If someone is denying Christ, does that mean they were never saved? If so, then I guess Peter is out of luck - he denied Christ three times.

Do you know anyone who professes not to be a Christian but who claims to have asked Jesus into their heart?

That's kindof the one chink in the armor of OSAS ... the question of how does it fly with a person who claims to have received Christ and then claims to be an unbeliever ...

[His4ever]

It's hard to call, really. I think there are people who say they were once Christian and now aren't who don't really know what a Christian really is. Or, yes, they never really were one. In today's society, it's best to ask someone what they mean by the term Christian. Also, it's possible that there are people who really are Christian but they're extremely angry at God about something and they say they're not a Christian anymore but in reality they really are, they're just angry and rebellious for a time. Don't know if that makes sense or not. But I do believe in OSAS.

[seachelle76]

My take on OSAS: Ultimately, it doesn't matter. I can use myself as an example. I was truly saved, I fell away, I came back. However, I'm firmly convinced that if I had died during the time I wasn't considering myself a believer that I would have been no different from anyone who had never been saved. God knows our hearts. He knows us better than we do as to if our faith is true and will persevere.

[LisaAnn]

My take on OSAS: Ultimately, it doesn't matter. I can use myself as an example. I was truly saved, I fell away, I came back. However, I'm firmly convinced that if I had died during the time I wasn't considering myself a believer that I would have been no different from anyone who had never been saved. God knows our hearts. He knows us better than we do as to if our faith is true and will persevere.

This was my experiance also. I was truely saved but got messed up and untimately, willfully turned my back on the Lord for a time. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have gone to hell if I had died during that time. Praise the Lord He didnt give up on me and wooed me back and showed me the truth and error of my ways.

I really think the bottom line is: Dont play with fire! If there is sin in your life then take it to Him and get yourself right! It isnt worth the consequenses to play around with doctronial disagreements.

[Bryton]

Junior Bible Quiz Question:

Is it possible to stop being a Christian?

Yes, we must continue in faith and God's grace to remain God's children
(Matthew 13:21; Luke 8:13; Colossians 1:23; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 1:6-7)

[Bryton]

I don't want to debate the OSAS issue. I realized as I posted, I didn't answer the OP's question. (sorry). Based on my above response, I do believe that people who were once saved can denounce that salvation. The Great Falling Away????

Like the above poster, I was truly saved and left the church and left my faith (my grandparents would say black slid). I, too, have no doubt that hell would have been my final destination, looking back on that time. Praise the Lord, He didn't give up on me.

[Rebecki]

I had a friend who was a Christian, she is now a Jehovah's Witness. My conclusion, she was never saved to begin with.

I'm OSAS... and I'm out of here before I open a can of worms. :D: :tape

[HeIsEnough]

My experience was a coming to the Lord, "falling/ignoring" away, and then drawing close. In other words, the same as seashelle and LisaAnn in a way.

However, I do not believe that I was never saved during any of that time. I believe the Lord knew what would happen, and it all happened, for His glory, in His timing. Not to get Calvinistic here, :rolleyes, but Jesus did say He would come after us, and He did for me.

I have known a couple who made the confession of faith, who later cursed God and Jesus. I do not believe they ever tasted His goodness, were partakers of His Spirit. So no, I do not believe they were ever saved, they had rocky soil.

[antsinmypants]

I have a friend that claimed to be a believer, she is now married to a Druid... she says she does not believe in G-d as she was taught to before (possibly is a druid herself now) - and had a pagan wedding ceremony.

I do not know her beliefs, but if she is practising witchcraft (and believes in these gods as her salvation) (We have lost contact since she told me all this) ....

I'm OSAS...

In the words of one of my friends, and my new understanding of scriptures in the light of Hebraic Understanding:

The Christian world is EXTREMELY SALVATION oriented. So, they
often discuss who is saved and if you are saved if you are always
saved and whether you can lose your salvation. Some of the issues
and arguments about "once saved always saved" are arguments
based upon a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of Bridal concepts,
characteristics and attributes because of this EXCLUSIVE
SALVATION oriented mentality. In doing so, they fail to make a
distinction and understand the DIFFERENCE between making
Yeshua/Jesus your SAVIOR and making Him your LORD over
your LIFE.

Making Yeshua/Jesus your SAVIOR is a SALVATION issue. Making
Yeshua/Jesus LORD is a BRIDAL issue. Christians fail to understand
this Biblical teaching and begin to JUDGE other Christians regarding
what they believe or how they live against THEIR DOCTRINE and if it
doesn't line up then they are "not saved". They then begin to make
DOCTRINE issues SALVATION issues. THIS is UNBIBLICAL.

Most accept that SALVATION is by GRACE and NOT by what we
DO (works) (Ephesians 2:8-10). Then, they try to make the argument
that if you don't BELIEVE a certain way that you are "deceived" and a
part of the "false church". So, they say in this that you are SAVED
by GRACE but keeping your salvation is based upon WORKS and
DOCTRINAL beliefs.

Then they also say that if you struggle to overcome some
weak areas in the flesh that you are then "not saved". Once again
they begin by saying that salvation is by GRACE and then keeping
salvation is based upon if we can overcome fleshly weak area
ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY JUDGE as being "ungodly".

So, let begin seeing the Biblical requirement for
SALVATION. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it is written:

"For by GRACE (UNMERITED FAVOR) are ye SAVED through
faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast"

THIS is the Biblical REQUIREMENT for SALVATION. This is
making Yeshua/Jesus your SAVIOR.

THEN, look at the NEXT verse as a RESULT of being saved by
GRACE and it is a FREE gift. In Ephesians 2:10 it is written:

"For we are his workmanship CREATED in Jesus Christ unto GOOD WORKS,
which God has ORDAINED that we should WALK IN THEM"

But, notice in Ephesians 2:8-9 that WORKS DO NOT SAVE us
THEN we are commanded to DO GOOD WORKS.

DOING GOOD WORKS is making Yeshua/Jesus LORD over our LIVES.
IF we DO GOOD WORKS AFTER we are SAVED (by a FREE GIFT) then we will
have REWARD in heaven. If we do NOT do good works AFTER we are saved
then we will have NO REWARDS. Christians confuse NO REWARDS with
"losing your salvation".

This is explained in (I Corinthians 3:12-14 as it is
written:

"Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare
it, because IT (your WORKS) shall be revealed by fire, and the fire
shall try every man's WORK of sort it is. If any man's WORK ABIDE
(they did GOOD WORKS) which he hath built thereupon (HIS SALVATION),
he shall receive a REWARD. If any man's WORK shall be BURNED, he
shall suffer LOSS (OF REWARD): BUT he himself shall be SAVED yet so
as by fire"

Therefore, there shall be SAVED believers with NO REWARD
and SAVED believers with GREAT REWARDS. Those believers who are SAVED
with GREAT REWARDS will be the BRIDE of Christ and she will be a
royal NATION of people. Those believers who are SAVED with NO REWARDS
are members of the other NATIONS because there are CATEGORIES and
LEVELS of REWARD in heaven. Each CATEGORY and LEVEL is seen as
a NATION of people.

Those SAVED believers with NO REWARDS will WEEP when they
see what they have MISSED compared to what they COULD have had.
In Revelation 21:3 it is written:

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the
tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they
shall be his people and God himself shall be with them and be their
God"

The SUBJECT of this verse is BELIEVERS who will be
living and dwelling with God for ALL ETERNITY (and they shall be his
people and God himself shall be with them and be their God).

THEN in the NEXT verse it says in Revelation 21:4:

"And God shall wipe away all TEARS from their EYES ..."

Since the SUBJECT of Revelation 21:3 is BELIEVERS who
are living in dwelling with God for all eternity, those whose eyes are
being wiped away are BELIEVERS who missed NOT SALVATION but
missed out on ETERNAL REWARDS.

Because God doesn't want BELIEVERS do live in an eternal
state of sadness because of the REWARDS that they missed, God will
take away the former things "for the former things are passed away".

In Isaiah 65:17 it is written:

"For, behold, I CREATE NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH: and the
FORMER shall NOT BE REMEMBERED NOR COME TO MIND"

After initially realizing the REWARDS that he lost, the
BELIEVER who is saved will WEAP but God will then WIPE all tears from
their eyes and the former life (on this earth) will no longer come
into remembrance (that some believers lived foolishly and lost
ETERNAL REWARDS).

So, SALVATION is a FREE GIFT given by GRACE. In
I Peter 1:23 it is written:

"Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of INCORRUPTIBLE
SEED by the WORD OF GOD which lives and abides forever"

We become BORN AGAIN from INCORRUPTIBLE SEED
which lives and abides FOREVER.

So, SALVATION is FREE but REWARDS requires OBEDIENCE to
God and HIS commandments and making Him LORD over EVERY AREA of our
lives. When believers fail to make Yeshua/Jesus LORD over EVERY area
of our lives, other believers JUDGE their SALVATION but in fact this
is a REWARD issue NOT a SALVATION issue.

Let me give you an example. There are some who are
teaching that we need to return to our "Hebraic Roots" and those who
practice Christmas and Easter (which are of pagan origin) are members
of the FALSE CHURCH and are NOT SAVED. Some also say that
if a Christian has no interest in their Hebraic Roots that they are
members of the FALSE CHURCH. So, just because THEY have been
enlighted to the truth of our Hebraic Roots and the Biblical
Festivals (BY THE HOLY SPIRIT) they then begin to JUDGE another's
SALVATION if they have not yet come to the truth of Hebraic Roots.

To do this, is ...a FAILURE to UNDERSTAND
(Christianity 101) and what the Bible describes as SALVATION.

-E.C.

I don't think i can make a judgement on my friend. YHVH knows her heart and her state.

I once was backslidden and fell into the traps and claws of the RCC teachings about mary as well as some of the hitches of wicca before I really realized what I was doing. I got out fast and came back harder than ever to YHVH and made Y'shua L-rd over my life... whereas before I looked at it as a co-pilot deal.


In other words- in Hebraic understanding- once G-d possesses you in His fold, even if you escape the fold, Y'shua, the Good Shepherd will look for you, find you and return you to the fold... no loss of being G-d's... just return to the fold.

[blitzkreig]

I believe there are plenty who think they are saved ... but are not. Sort of a "complementary" question to think of while digesting the BigDave question in the Opening Post.

They haven't "left" because they were never Saved. If they do leave they would not be leaving Salvation as they never had it in the first place.


Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

.

[Mailman Dan]

I know several, and those who've been here long remember several. One came to the Tulsa conference a few years back as a believer, then became an athesit. Its very common, and the bible mentions those that believe for awhile, but in time they fall away.


I stopped plugging the true and false conversion audio, but it hit the nail on the head.


Dan~~~>gave out several copies

[frisian1970]

So no one was able to discern that this person wasn't a Christian at Tulsa?

:confused

[Jiggy37]

I know several, and those who've been here long remember several. One came to the Tulsa conference a few years back as a believer, then became an athesit. Its very common, and the bible mentions those that believe for awhile, but in time they fall away.:sad
So no one was able to discern that this person wasn't a Christian at Tulsa?

:confusedI think Dan meant that the person became an atheist after Tulsa.



I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in this thread yet since I know I've seen it around the board before, but there's an interesting thought that goes that while the good shepherd won't lose any of His sheep from His hand, there's nothing to say that the sheep can't jump straight out on their own. :noidea

But personally I'm an OSAS and/or "once saved, God won't let you die while you're not in the fold, even if you fall away for a time and then come back later" type of person. Just thought I'd throw the other side out there for consideration--testing all things, and such.

[Mailman Dan]

Firs, we had a member of the message board that came to one of the conferences a few years ago, and she came to learn more about prophecy and scripture. (A very nice and sweet person btw)

A few months later, she changed her mind and became a strong athesit. So do you think she was a christian to begin with?


Dan~~~>knows only God can read the truth (or lack thereof) in a persons heart

[antsinmypants]

...I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in this thread yet since I know I've seen it around the board before, but there's an interesting thought that goes that while the good shepherd won't lose any of His sheep from His hand, there's nothing to say that the sheep can't jump straight out on their own. :noidea


Psa 119:169 TAV. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
Psa 119:170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
Psa 119:171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.
Psa 119:173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
Psa 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law [is] my delight.
Psa 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.




Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Jer 50:7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers


Jer 50:45 Therefore hear ye the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Babylon; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make [their] habitation desolate with them.


Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.




Luk 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Luk 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
Luk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[Jiggy37]

I'm not sure whether that was in agreement or disagreement with the idea that a sheep can leave on its own, but I think agreement. :wacko
Either way, though, no disagreement from me that God certainly seeks the lost sheep.

[frisian1970]

Firs, we had a member of the message board that came to one of the conferences a few years ago, and she came to learn more about prophecy and scripture. (A very nice and sweet person btw)

A few months later, she changed her mind and became a strong athesit. So do you think she was a christian to begin with?


Dan~~~>knows only God can read the truth (or lack thereof) in a persons heartSo being a Christian is a matter of mind? It is a nay or yay intellectual assent? And I do know who we speak of.

;):

[Mailman Dan]

Fris man, seriously, I like you and all, but some of these things you say and your response with questions that go off topic is really annoying. Its often hard to tell if you really don't know, or you just want to try to spur out an arguement.

The topic is, "Do you know anyone who claimed to be "saved" but now claims not to be? " and in fact we all know several. The person I speak of was here long before you, but there are many just like him, or her that have come and gone.

It is nothing more than showing the true nature of ones heart. I've often stated I believe exactly what scripture says....By their fruit, you will know them.

I'm not sure if you, or others here, are aware of what that means. It means (before you ask in the very next post) that many people will over time show the vadility of their "conversion" to Christianity. If they did truely convert, in time they will be productive in some way. If they just "tried" christianity for awhile and never turned toward the things of God, they will fall away.


Dan~~~>suspects more post with off topic questions

[Writesinme]

Doesn't the Bible say something about..."those who leave us were never with us." ??

I think when a person is truly saved, they can not turn their backs. I don't mean slip up and backslide...I mean, literally turn away. If they're able to do this, they need to evaluate whether they were ever saved to begin with.

I got really angry at God once...told Him He was asking too much of me and that I couldn't do things His way for awhile. I told Him I wasn't denying Him...I just wanted to try a different appraoch to handling a problem.

My "little breather" from God lasted all of 20 seconds. I could almost hear Him laughing, :pound , saying, "Go ahead--just try it without me."

What I discovered is that...mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically, it was impossible for me to leave my Lord! Impossible. Do I mess up and fall short? More than I care to admit...but I belong to Him. :clap

[Chronus]

Well, I was one of those people who knew the Gospel and asked Jesus into my heart at a young age. I then "fell away from the Lord" and did my own thing until I was 23 and then started really following the Lord.

And now . . . here's what REALLY happened. I thought I became a Christian at a young age. I knew the Gospel, I said the prayer, I had a type of zeal. I also wasn't saved. Why? Because the Holy Spirit simply had not regenerated my spirit . . . period. No real repentance . . . no good fruit . . . just a fascade (sp?)

The Holy Spirit crashed into my life during college. The terror of going to hell and crying out to God for salvation and mercy finally was a reality in my life. In many ways, it was painful. But I'm so glad it happened . . . and I don't want to go back to what I was. You see, my life changed because the Holy Spirit does that. [DISCLAIMER: I'm not claiming perfection!] Praise God for His Holy work!

I'm sorry to appear judgmental but I often cringe about those kinds of testimonies where a person "received Christ but fell away" and are now living like the Devil. I guess it's because it sounds all too similar to my story. Some then "come back and start following the Lord". Perhaps it was at this point that they really became a Christian? Well, I can't say for certain . . . but I do sometimes wonder.

[Rebecki]

Doesn't the Bible say something about..."those who leave us were never with us." ??

I think when a person is truly saved, they can not turn their backs. I don't mean slip up and backslide...I mean, literally turn away. If they're able to do this, they need to evaluate whether they were ever saved to begin with.

I got really angry at God once...told Him He was asking too much of me and that I couldn't do things His way for awhile. I told Him I wasn't denying Him...I just wanted to try a different appraoch to handling a problem.

My "little breather" from God lasted all of 20 seconds. I could almost hear Him laughing, :pound , saying, "Go ahead--just try it without me."

What I discovered is that...mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically, it was impossible for me to leave my Lord! Impossible. Do I mess up and fall short? More than I care to admit...but I belong to Him. :clap

You have summed up exactly how I've been feeling. For the last 3 years or so I have felt like I was in a very deep valley. I was spiritually abused at our old church, left that church, and was then wandering and only recently found a bible teaching church (that was hard too in this day of "seeker friendly" churches). Now the hard part is trying to get back in the habit of going regularly.

During this dry spell I have questioned my own salvation many, many, times. Sometimes the only lifeline to God that I had was this message board. But recently I realized that if I wasn't His, then it wouldn't bother me. But it did bother me. I thought about it all the time. I thought about how much I missed the "old days" with Him, and I reminised over how he has taken care of me. Even though I was not faithful in my bible reading, or church attendance, or in my attitude or speech (I began swearing again), I was mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically connected to Jesus. That was/is very, very, comforting to me, because now I know that even though I am prone to wander, I am still tied by a life-line to Him.

I think that a person who is truly saved would feel the same way. I don't believe they can just "shake Him off" and go on about their life as if nothing happened.

[Jiggy37]

Fris man, seriously, I like you and all, but some of these things you say and your response with questions that go off topic is really annoying. Its often hard to tell if you really don't know, or you just want to try to spur out an arguement.

The topic is, "Do you know anyone who claimed to be "saved" but now claims not to be? " and in fact we all know several. The person I speak of was here long before you, but there are many just like him, or her that have come and gone.

It is nothing more than showing the true nature of ones heart. I've often stated I believe exactly what scripture says....By their fruit, you will know them.

I'm not sure if you, or others here, are aware of what that means. It means (before you ask in the very next post) that many people will over time show the vadility of their "conversion" to Christianity. If they did truely convert, in time they will be productive in some way. If they just "tried" christianity for awhile and never turned toward the things of God, they will fall away.


Dan~~~>suspects more post with off topic questionsHow is it off-topic to ask, in a thread about whether anyone knows "anyone who claimed to be saved but now claims not to be," what it means to be a Christian? :confused

[HeIsEnough]

It is nothing more than showing the true nature of ones heart. I've often stated I believe exactly what scripture says....By their fruit, you will know them.

:nod


I'm not sure if you, or others here, are aware of what that means. It means that many people will over time show the vadility of their "conversion" to Christianity. If they did truely convert, in time they will be productive in some way. If they just "tried" christianity for awhile and never turned toward the things of God, they will fall away.

Yes Dan, that is how I have seen it, with my own eyes. And that is how the scriptures say it will happen.

[HeIsEnough]

I think that a person who is truly saved would feel the same way. I don't believe they can just "shake Him off" and go on about their life as if nothing happened.

Ya know, I have seen those who have tried. Did the "stomp my feet to get my way" kind of thing, or even the "I'm so mad at you God for what happened" kinda thing. What a miserable existance they live! You can just see the pain, the suffering in their heart, yet you also can hear the rebellion in their attitude as well. I even know a guy who had virtually everything taken away, left with nothing but anger. He is now coming around, but it took a lot for it to happen. The Lord has His ways, and we are no match for Him. It takes a lot to break a rebel heart, sadly I know, but He is faithful, and will do it!

[frisian1970]

Fris man, seriously, I like you and all, but some of these things you say and your response with questions that go off topic is really annoying. Its often hard to tell if you really don't know, or you just want to try to spur out an arguement.It is a method used to ascertain the logic employed in making a statement, portrayed as factual. Rather than simplistic assertions that one may miss the meat of an implication, I attempt to understand the root of an assertion.

It is nothing more than showing the true nature of ones heart. I've often stated I believe exactly what scripture says....By their fruit, you will know them.Which I have always wondered to what extent is such merited as an acknowledged attribute and to whom? And what is the duration of inspection? Obviously monitoring someone over a short period of time, or infrequently doesn't expose someone's heart.

I'm not sure if you, or others here, are aware of what that means. It means (before you ask in the very next post) that many people will over time show the vadility of their "conversion" to Christianity. If they did truely convert, in time they will be productive in some way. If they just "tried" christianity for awhile and never turned toward the things of God, they will fall away.Ok, that makes sense.


Dan~~~>suspects more post with off topic questionsOr the appearance of such, most definitely.