Sickness and healing...

[ginnae]

Ok, I know there have been many discussions on these topics, but for right now I need some head clearing and making sure I am on the right track once again.
I go to a bible study on christian counciling. So far I have not read anything there that has set up alarms. What has been setting off alarms is somethings my pastor's wife says that is off topic (she and I are the only ones at the bible study from out church).
Anyway, the last bible study she mentioned some guy (a tv guy, I am sure, but I can't remember which) Anyway, she goes on to tell about the testimony that this guy had about reading the scripture "by His stripes we are healed". This man read that scripture and believed it to mean that because Jesus died, we are healed (sicknesses included) not just healed from sicknesses, but that we never have to be sick again. He believed on that and he never got sick for 20 yrs, until he went against the Holy Spirit telling him not to eat a certain food because it was rotton, but he did it anyway and got sick.
Now my pastor's wife really believes that God wants us all to be healed we don't have to be sick. She really gets mad at herself for not believing enough to claim victory over her lost of perfect eyesight and that she needs reading glasses.
Now I believe God can and does heal, but that doesn't mean we don't ever get sick.
I am just currently getting back to reading my bible so I am not well versed in it, but I brought it up to her, that some believe the thorn in Paul's flesh was his eyesight. Big mistake because that was never proven and they just said that it was probably all the pursecution that Paul suffered.
Anyway after the bible study, I have been reading in the new testement and come across Timothy having stomach problems and not feeling well. Paul tells him to drink some wine. Wouldn't Paul have corrected Timothy and tell him that we don't have to be sick because "by his stripes we are healed"? But Paul never did. Plus in 2 Timothy4:20 it states that Paul left Trophimus sick in Miletus. Again Paul did not mention anything about Christians do not need to be sick because we were healed.
Also why would the bible tell us if there are any sick among us to call the elders to be anointed with oil and prayed for? (I hope I got that right)
That teaching that we NEVER have to get sick again just doesn't lay right with me because there are examples that Chrsitians do get sick.

Pastor has even said that we get sick because Satan has taken our health from us and we need to claim it back. He said that he will not die of some disease, just naturally from old age. While I know a lot of diseases come from our sins (from unsafe sex, over indulgenance in food or liquo, etc) but there are illnesses we get just because we are born in a sinfilled world.
I don't know... I think I am just confusing myself more by just trying to figure all of this out.

[sara_bug]

I heard a lady preach one time and explained it like this.

The devil can send you a fed ex package of an illness... and only if you receive it do you keep it. But by Jesus' stripes we are healed.... so we are supposed to tell the devil to take his package back to hell where it came from.

When Jesus died he took all disease to hell and left it there. The devil will try and give the sickness to you.... but you don't have to keep it!!! Because by his stripes we ARE healed.

I believe God does not want us to get sick... but the devil is real too.... and plays his little nasty tricks. That is why Jesus had to take the stripes... so we can be healed.

[Blessed2B]

This topic has made it's rounds here umpteen times.
I will not argue the topic, but only say this:
The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.
I haven't been sick in YEARS, and its not by luck, or by chance, or by sitting in an air filtered bubble.
It's only by HIS stripes.

[Livin4Jesus]

I am in agreement with the other posters, and it is very refreshing to see some others on this board stand up for what the Word truly says about healing and our full redemption (the FULL Gospel), which is the back side of the cross. I won't argue all the points of healing right now as it is getting late and I know these discussions, sadly, tend to get heated, but there is much good teaching out there on healing. I would highly recommend F.F. Bosworth's Christ the Healer. Our Lord and Savior never changes. He never refused anyone when He physically walked the earth, and He never refuses anyone now, when He is also still walking the earth through His Body. It is not a question of will He, but that He already did. Every bit of His redemption was won for us in the spirit realm at Calvary, but we play a part in bringing those promises to pass in the physical realm. It's like the electric company--the power is always present, but we must turn on the light.

God bless,

Pam

[blitzkreig]

This topic has made it's rounds here umpteen times.
I will not argue the topic, but only say this:
The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.
I haven't been sick in YEARS, and its not by luck, or by chance, or by sitting in an air filtered bubble. Gee. Even if the Lord were to tarry then, you could live forever. :B:

[blitzkreig]

It's like the electric company--the power is always present, but we must turn on the light. How come that Paul lacked the "juice" then... ? Hmmm. Paul should have been "tighter" with God and had more faith ... ?

2Co 12:8-10
(8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

[Writesinme]

When my nephew was sick, we did it all--stood on scripture, rebuked Satan, called in the elders, annointed with oil...thousands of prayers went up. There was enough faith to rearrange the Ozarks much less move a mountain. He still died. It was God's will. NOW my nephew IS healed. He just had to go to Heaven to receive it.

[Patty T]

My understanding (and belief) is that the stripes our Lord and Savior took on His back were for our spiritual healing. He was beaten and bruised for our iniquities. The precious blood He shed was to pay the price for us to be reconciled back to the Father. Thank You Jesus for Your blood which cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

I don't find anywhere in scripture that guarantees we will be completely healthy in our physical bodies. If no one was ever supposed to get or be sick after salvation, why would we be instructed to annoint the sick with oil? Why would be admonished to pray for those who are sick? Doesn't the Potter have control over the clay? His ways are higher than ours; His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Paul said he took pleasure in his infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when he is weak, then he is strong (2 Corin 12:10).

[andy]

Jesus will always heal the worst sickness, disease, blight and scars that we face. That awfull malady is SIN! Sin always kills, steals, and destroys, but Jesus will heal it every time. Whats more He gives us eternal protection from this horrible sickness. This healing is always 100 % and for eternity. And guess what, when the sickness (sin) comes back on us, He is always there to cleanse us and make us well and whole again. He never fails, praise the name of Jesus. Jesus is truly Lord!! :wave

[HeIsEnough]

How come that Paul lacked the "juice" then... ? Hmmm. Paul should have been "tighter" with God and had more faith ... ?

I believe Timothy lacked the "juice" too, if I recall.

Btw, If those of you who never get sick, get sick, go to your elders for anointing with oil, like the scriptures teach us. And come back here to, and I/we will gladly pray for you.

[antsinmypants]

I don't find anywhere in scripture that guarantees we will be completely healthy in our physical bodies. If no one was ever supposed to get or be sick after salvation, why would we be instructed to annoint the sick with oil? Why would be admonished to pray for those who are sick? Doesn't the Potter have control over the clay? His ways are higher than ours; His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Paul said he took pleasure in his infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when he is weak, then he is strong (2 Corin 12:10).

Bingo! :thumb

There are those whose sins cause them infirmity (according to scripture), and there are those by whose sickness G-d is glorified (according to scripture).

Paul speaks of his infirmity... and we also find that Timothy had infirmity and was told to take a little wine for his stomach's sake.

I know many believers, had they not been ill, that people wouldn't have been touched by their lives and seen Messiah manifested in them.

I myself have been touched with infirmity in my life, and had I not been, I couldn't be as compassionate towards others with these problems, let alone help others who experience the same problems as myself.

[joy4Him2day]

ginnae: I think you have your head on straight on this one......you have a very good look at it all, and it is balanced nicely-----we do have mortal bodies on this side of life........they break down, its the fallen world syndrome.......

[Writesinme]

Joni Erikson Tada has said that she prayed and prayed for physical healing, but that it never came. She also says that God has used her paralysis in many ways to minister. I've heard Helen Keller used as an amazing example of God's power to work through infirmities--Helen Keller actually said she was glad of her circumstances.

[gaburke]

Bingo! :thumb


I know many believers, had they not been ill, that people wouldn't have been touched by their lives and seen Messiah manifested in them.


How true this is!

A lady in our church died of cancer about 6 weeks ago. For three weeks before her passing she was visited by secular and Christian friends. The week prior to her death, her Christian friends set up a 24-hour watch so that she would not be alone for one moment. One of her secular friends was present on and off during this time, and every time she would walk in the room she would find a Christian friend holding her hand and praying with her, or just reading Scripture to her. This didn't stop even when she dropped out of consciousness. About 2 hours before she passed she raised up in bed and reached toward heaven like a child does when they want to be picked up. She passed later and had the most peaceful smile on her face. I wasn't there to see it all, but I'm told that's how it happened.

Anyhow, back to the story. The secular friend was a non-religious Jew (her description). Well, the Sunday before Easter she and her sister showed up to our church. Both accepted the Lord that day!!! On Easter Sunday her sister's husband showed up and really liked the service as well. Now we're praying for her husband to come (a non-religious Methodist, I'm told).

The point is this. Had that lady not suffered what she did, her friend might never have come to know the Lord. I have nothing against praying for healing, and sometimes wonder what most churches would do if someone did get healed. Indeed, I often think the last thing a lot of Christians expect is a miracle, and some might even sadly call it a work of the enemy. But there I do believe there is such a thing as redemptive suffering. In this case it turned out that the redemption happened to someone other than the sufferer.

Jerry

[Benja32one]

Ok, I know there have been many discussions on these topics, but for right now I need some head clearing and making sure I am on the right track once again.
I go to a bible study on christian counciling. So far I have not read anything there that has set up alarms. What has been setting off alarms is somethings my pastor's wife says that is off topic (she and I are the only ones at the bible study from out church).
Anyway, the last bible study she mentioned some guy (a tv guy, I am sure, but I can't remember which) Anyway, she goes on to tell about the testimony that this guy had about reading the scripture "by His stripes we are healed". This man read that scripture and believed it to mean that because Jesus died, we are healed (sicknesses included) not just healed from sicknesses, but that we never have to be sick again. He believed on that and he never got sick for 20 yrs, until he went against the Holy Spirit telling him not to eat a certain food because it was rotton, but he did it anyway and got sick.
Now my pastor's wife really believes that God wants us all to be healed we don't have to be sick. She really gets mad at herself for not believing enough to claim victory over her lost of perfect eyesight and that she needs reading glasses.
Now I believe God can and does heal, but that doesn't mean we don't ever get sick.
I am just currently getting back to reading my bible so I am not well versed in it, but I brought it up to her, that some believe the thorn in Paul's flesh was his eyesight. Big mistake because that was never proven and they just said that it was probably all the pursecution that Paul suffered.
Anyway after the bible study, I have been reading in the new testement and come across Timothy having stomach problems and not feeling well. Paul tells him to drink some wine. Wouldn't Paul have corrected Timothy and tell him that we don't have to be sick because "by his stripes we are healed"? But Paul never did. Plus in 2 Timothy4:20 it states that Paul left Trophimus sick in Miletus. Again Paul did not mention anything about Christians do not need to be sick because we were healed.
Also why would the bible tell us if there are any sick among us to call the elders to be anointed with oil and prayed for? (I hope I got that right)
That teaching that we NEVER have to get sick again just doesn't lay right with me because there are examples that Chrsitians do get sick.

Pastor has even said that we get sick because Satan has taken our health from us and we need to claim it back. He said that he will not die of some disease, just naturally from old age. While I know a lot of diseases come from our sins (from unsafe sex, over indulgenance in food or liquo, etc) but there are illnesses we get just because we are born in a sinfilled world.
I don't know... I think I am just confusing myself more by just trying to figure all of this out.
1 Timothy 4.20, 2 Cor. 12.8, Since Paul 'had the gift' of healing, why could he not heal Trophimus? Or himself for that matter? For starters, some of the MOST FAITHFUL AND SPIRITUAL CHRISTIANS I HAVE KNOWN IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS HAVE BEEN SICK, CHRONICALLY IN SOME CASES AND NOT HEALED. Sickness and death are results of the inherited fallen nature, why do you think that the farther you go back to near the time of Adam, longevity was so great? It was because they did not have the 6000 years of the outworking of sin in the human race. Healing is done by God, at His choosing and good pleasure. Many times in answer to prayer....James 5.14-15 :nod :):

[antsinmypants]

For starters, some of the MOST FAITHFUL AND SPIRITUAL CHRISTIANS I HAVE KNOWN IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS HAVE BEEN SICK, CHRONICALLY IN SOME CASES AND NOT HEALED...

Though I haven't been around for 50 years, (not quite half that time).. I have seen the same evidence in my life and that of other believers with critical and even fatal illnesses and cancers.

[Timothy]

"The net": In the Dispenation of Grace, God has never promised to shield us or protect us from poverty, pain or sickness. God is doing something better than that with us....

:):

[Benja32one]

Though I haven't been around for 50 years, (not quite half that time).. I have seen the same evidence in my life and that of other believers with critical and even fatal illnesses and cancers.
I've only spoken of my christian years, I'm 66 last Feb., and boy, let me tell you, I can sure feel the wear and tear. We need a balanced approach to sickness, believing our Father that He knows best for us. The poor Schiavo girl who was just starved to death by a remorseless, adulterous 'husband' may yet redound to the glory of God. Jesus said speaking of Lazarus, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby." (John 11.4) In every sickness, it must be remembered "Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?" as Abraham asked when arguing with God about sparing Lot. (Gen. 18.25) Too often we assume that IT'S ALL ABOUT US, don't you think? Perhaps it is about our testimony and bearing up under the burden of adversity that shows forth the praises of Him Who bought us with His life's blood. :thumb :nod

[Ciscokid]

"The net": In the Dispenation of Grace, God has never promised to shield us or protect us from poverty, pain or sickness. God is doing something better than that with us....

:):


Amen. There are people out there who have denied thier sick child medical attention. Only to watch their child die. Sickness is apart of life....it doesn't matter how tight you are with God.

[sandy111]

how would God try us??? if there was no suffering?

how would we enter into the sufferings of Jesus??
without suffering?

[dman]

The True suffering of Jesus was persecution and disbeleif...

If they persecuted and hated him they will do the same to them who follow This is how we are tested and tried in our faith..

It was the cancer of hate and rejection that killed Christ not afliction in his body or sickness. if was the disbeleif of the world and aflition from that world on his body that he die of..

as believers following christ These are the ways our faith is tried god does not give us cancer sickness and handy caps as a test to try our faith..

He allowed satan to do this with Job to prove BUt we are no longer under the Law we are under Christ and his reserection..

he took the sins of this world on his shoulders and told us when we choose to follow him to be prepard to do the same if the world hated him it will hate us the same..

though sickness does test our faith in many ways as we are to pray the Lord heal our sickness and believe in faith hoping even though we can not see the healing..

many in the Lord can be healed the same as they are saved they are saved because they believe christ to be risen from death even though they can not see him or see him rise. many are sick needlesly because they believe in the sickness they can feel and see in them self and others more then they believe the healing they pray for is already their's..

seeing is not believeing but rather believeing is hope in that which we can't see.

people say word of faith is wrong word of faith is bad, how ever I believe they are right on we are not sick and aflicted because the Lord makes us ill to try us Sickness Remains in us because though we pray to be healed with yet our mouth we confirm and confess with our mouth the sickness we see and feel rather then then the healing we already have ..

The words I am not feeling well is a confession of being sick Not a confession that in Christ Jesus I am healed. WIth our mouth we speak both blessings and curses sickness is not a blessing ..

even though many say doctors are given knowlege to heal From the Lord When we go to a doctor what is it they do before they decided to find medicine to make you better They confirm and agree you are sick.

is this what Jesus would do No it is not if you went to Jesus he would say Your faith has healed (saved you) as christains we are saying we are Christ like shouldn't we be doing the same..

Yes the words we speak can hold us down , The words we speak will and can hold us in bondage to many things including sickness and afliction.

will GOd use them handycaped as a strong witness yes he sure will use any one who believes. he has a plan to use each and every person whois saved to saved souls and spead the word. though its doubtfull that it is by his choosing they remain this way his word tells us differently ..

[dman]

SOme will say well paul was aflicted and he was very strong in his beleif in the Lord, why wasn't he healed BUt if you look you will see that even though the Lord used him paul called him self the cheif of sinners and felt him self not worthy of Mercy he was used but aflicted by his own Choosing Not the Lords..

[dman]

Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

Where in this statement Christ made does it say that he came to Bring sickness and afliction to test and try us ???

The Good Shepard Gives his life for his sheep takes afliction on him self he does not Do such to his Sheep this is what the thieif does..

[sandy111]

Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

Where in this statement Christ made does it say that he came to Bring sickness and afliction to test and try us ???

The Good Shepard Gives his life for his sheep takes afliction on him self he does not Do such to his Sheep this is what the thieif does..


God did not bring sickness but rather uses it sometimes for our good.
They life that God is speaking about haveing more abundantly,
is spiritual when looked at in the context.

I believe it was Paul who said trial and tribultations produce
certain things in us. I'll try to get that scripture tomarrow.

If Jesus took all affliction, then why was paul beaten (his back would have been raw) scripture tells us that a jailer was attending to their wounds.

from what I'm gathering from your posts is that if people had enough faith
they would'nt have a sickness or affliction. Is that what you are saying?
cause thats not biblical.

[sandy111]

The True suffering of Jesus was persecution and disbeleif...

If they persecuted and hated him they will do the same to them who follow This is how we are tested and tried in our faith..

It was the cancer of hate and rejection that killed Christ not afliction in his body or sickness. if was the disbeleif of the world and aflition from that world on his body that he die of..

as believers following christ These are the ways our faith is tried god does not give us cancer sickness and handy caps as a test to try our faith..

He allowed satan to do this with Job to prove BUt we are no longer under the Law we are under Christ and his reserection..

he took the sins of this world on his shoulders and told us when we choose to follow him to be prepard to do the same if the world hated him it will hate us the same..

though sickness does test our faith in many ways as we are to pray the Lord heal our sickness and believe in faith hoping even though we can not see the healing..

many in the Lord can be healed the same as they are saved they are saved because they believe christ to be risen from death even though they can not see him or see him rise. many are sick needlesly because they believe in the sickness they can feel and see in them self and others more then they believe the healing they pray for is already their's..

seeing is not believeing but rather believeing is hope in that which we can't see.

people say word of faith is wrong word of faith is bad, how ever I believe they are right on we are not sick and aflicted because the Lord makes us ill to try us Sickness Remains in us because though we pray to be healed with yet our mouth we confirm and confess with our mouth the sickness we see and feel rather then then the healing we already have ..

The words I am not feeling well is a confession of being sick Not a confession that in Christ Jesus I am healed. WIth our mouth we speak both blessings and curses sickness is not a blessing ..

even though many say doctors are given knowlege to heal From the Lord When we go to a doctor what is it they do before they decided to find medicine to make you better They confirm and agree you are sick.

is this what Jesus would do No it is not if you went to Jesus he would say Your faith has healed (saved you) as christains we are saying we are Christ like shouldn't we be doing the same..

Yes the words we speak can hold us down , The words we speak will and can hold us in bondage to many things including sickness and afliction.

will GOd use them handycaped as a strong witness yes he sure will use any one who believes. he has a plan to use each and every person whois saved to saved souls and spead the word. though its doubtfull that it is by his choosing they remain this way his word tells us differently ..

you said the words we speak can hold us down, the words we speak will and can hold us in bondage to many things including sickness and affliction.

I disagree, because wof takes that and says we can "speak" things into
excistence, we can "create" with our words.....
I say no, only God has the power to create with his spoken word.

now I do believe that our tongues can destroy others,
in the sense of tearing a person down.
I know people who confess freedom from sickness and affliction,
yet are very cruel with their tongues which is what I believe scripture is referring to.