Jesus' conception

[ginnae]

Ok, I grew up believing that God placed the baby in Mary's womb. No sperm from Joseph (obvious), but also the egg of Mary was not used either, just her womb.
Is this the correct understanding or did I miss something here or there?
I feel so dumb sometimes, but I am trying to root out all my wrongful teachings and it is a slow process at times. I tried looking in the bible but from my understanding (which isn't much) I didn't read anything one way or another in the gospels. Old Testement, I would be lost in finding it.

[Hootmon]

Ok, I grew up believing that God placed the baby in Mary's womb. No sperm from Joseph (obvious), but also the egg of Mary was not used either, just her womb.
Is this the correct understanding or did I miss something here or there? All indications are that Mary was 'impregnated' by the Holy Spirit, which resulted in a 'normal' pregnancy.

Jesus was the result of being both a 'normal' man so that His sacrifice would be efficatious for mankind, and the Son of God so that His perfect obedience to the Father was possible.

[Beth]

Ok, I grew up believing that God placed the baby in Mary's womb. No sperm from Joseph (obvious), but also the egg of Mary was not used either, just her womb.
Is this the correct understanding or did I miss something here or there?
I feel so dumb sometimes, but I am trying to root out all my wrongful teachings and it is a slow process at times. I tried looking in the bible but from my understanding (which isn't much) I didn't read anything one way or another in the gospels. Old Testement, I would be lost in finding it.

Based on the theology of salvation (soteriology), I think Jesus MUST be truly linked to us (ie to Adam's race), or He could not vicariously take our place as our Kinsman-Redeemer. He could not stand in the stead of the whole race of mankind.
So, I think God did use the ovum of Mary (the seed of the woman), but bypassed the seed of a man, and thus the miracle of the Incarnation, which if you think about it, is more that Jesus was miraculously conceived, while the actual subsequent process of the gestation and birth (passage through canal) were perfectly normal, just like other babies grow from conception and are born.
Thus, Jesus Christ is REALLY human, and also really divine. A sham or superficial connection to us in our mode of being, would not do.

[Hootmon]

Based on the theology of salvation (soteriology), I think Jesus MUST be truly linked to us (ie to Adam's race), or He could not vicariously take our place as our Kinsman-Redeemer. He could not stand in the stead of the whole race of mankind.
So, I think God did use the ovum of Mary (the seed of the woman), but bypassed the seed of a man, and thus the miracle of the Incarnation, which if you think about it, is more that Jesus was miraculously conceived, while the actual subsequent process of the gestation and birth (passage through canal) were perfectly normal, just like other babies grow from conception and are born.
Thus, Jesus Christ is REALLY human, and also really divine. A sham or superficial connection to us in our mode of being, would not do.I like your answer better. :thumb

[treboom]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong here. In the old testament, fallen angels(demons) saw that women were beautiful and took on the form of men and had sex with the women and the Nephilim were born.

Satan and/or demons can only counterfiet the real thing. Based on this biblical fact it does not seem impossible at all that God would use the "seed of the woman" along with His PERFECTION to allow Jesus to be born a perfect human man to take back what Adam lost for the human race.

[antsinmypants]

Based on the theology of salvation (soteriology), I think Jesus MUST be truly linked to us (ie to Adam's race), or He could not vicariously take our place as our Kinsman-Redeemer. He could not stand in the stead of the whole race of mankind.
So, I think God did use the ovum of Mary (the seed of the woman), but bypassed the seed of a man, and thus the miracle of the Incarnation, which if you think about it, is more that Jesus was miraculously conceived, while the actual subsequent process of the gestation and birth (passage through canal) were perfectly normal, just like other babies grow from conception and are born.
Thus, Jesus Christ is REALLY human, and also really divine. A sham or superficial connection to us in our mode of being, would not do.


:nod :thumb

The whole reason for stressing in prophesy and in the Gospels that she was a virgin and did not know a man- was that her ovum was used. He was fully human and fully divine.

[ginnae]

Thanks for answering. Like I said, I have a lot of studying to do to make sure all that I was taught or grew up believing is actually biblical.

[UNeverEverNo]

Thanks for answering. Like I said, I have a lot of studying to do to make sure all that I was taught or grew up believing is actually biblical.Don't sweat it. We ALL have a lot of studying to do. :):

[nooneuno]

So, I think God did use the ovum of Mary (the seed of the woman), but bypassed the seed of a man, and thus the miracle of the Incarnation,

I don't agree with this. I believe Jesus was created solely by God, was God and Mary's womb was where he was placed.
Jesus--the second Adam.

1Corinthians 15:45 -And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (JESUS)

The first man is of the earth-- the second man is the Lord from heaven.

4. He illustrates this by a comparison of the first and second Adam: There is an animal body, says he, and there is a spiritual body; and then goes into the comparison in several instances. (1.) As we have our natural body, the animal body we have in this world, from the first Adam, we expect our spiritual body from the second. This is implied in the whole comparison. (2.) This is but consonant to the different characters these two persons bear: The first Adam was made a living soul, such a being as ourselves, and with a power of propagating such beings as himself, and conveying to them a nature and animal body like his own, but none other, nor better. The second Adam is a quickening Spirit; he is the resurrection and the life, Jn. 11:25. He hath life in himself, and quickeneth whom he will, Jn. 5:20, 21. The first man was of the earth, made out of the earth, and was earthy; his body was fitted to the region of his abode: but the second Adam is the Lord from heaven; he who came down from heaven, and giveth life to the world (Jn. 6:33); he who came down from heaven and was in heaven at the same time (Jn. 3:13); the Lord of heaven and earth. If the first Adam could communicate to us natural and animal bodies, cannot the second Adam make our bodies spiritual ones? If the deputed lord of this lower creation could do the one, cannot the Lord from heaven, the Lord of heaven and earth, do the other? (3.) We must first have natural bodies from the first Adam before we can have spiritual bodies from the second (v. 49); we must bear the image of the earthy before we can bear the image of the heavenly. Such is the established order of Providence. We must have weak, frail, mortal bodies by descent from the first Adam, before we can have lively, spiritual, and immortal ones by the quickening power of the second. We must die before we can live to die no more. (4.) Yet if we are Christ’s, true believers in him (for this whole discourse relates to the resurrection of the saints), it is as certain that we shall have spiritual bodies as it is now that we have natural or animal ones. By these we are as the first Adam, earthy, we bear his image; by those we shall be as the second Adam, have bodies like his own, heavenly, and so bear him image. And we are as certainly intended to bear the one as we have borne the other. As surely therefore as we have had natural bodies, we shall have spiritual ones. The dead in Christ shall not only rise, but shall rise thus gloriously changed. ---Matthew Henry

I do not believe there would be any DNA of Mary's found in Jesus.

Truly human by God, truly divine-God.

[ipjones6000]

Couldn't God have just made the egg develop into Jesus? It seems to me God likes to make things out of something rather than just thin air. I think it would be more like God to use the egg to make Jesus like he used the dust to make Adam, and used his power as God to make it into a human.

[nooneuno]

God's dust, God's egg, God's only son as man, God did it somehow. Maybe he used an egg and sperm? I do not believe it was Mary's in any sense. I believe Mary was a vessel. ;):

[Hootmon]

How do you account for the 'seed of a woman' prophecy in Genesis then?

Jesus had to be a blood decendent of David to claim David's throne 'legally', but He could not be from the line of Coniah (Jeconiah) due to its 'curse'. Mary was decended from David, but not of the line of Coniah.

Clearly a woman of the correct bloodline was 'required' in order to fullfill prophecy...

[nooneuno]

Good question Hootmon! :D:

Born "OF" Mary.

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. (HER? :confused )
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (YOUR child?)

Ok...I am researching this..

This is what I have found-
Most scripture says a child is born "UNTO" someone, with Jesus it reads born "OF".

THEN...JESUS was born WITHOUT SIN. Man is conceived IN sin.

I really feel this verse about "The second Adam" clinches it.

God certainly can form "God's only begotten, sinless son-God Himself" and place Him in the womb of this "Handmaiden", Mary-
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

[CountryBumpkin]

God's dust, God's egg, God's only son as man, God did it somehow. Maybe he used an egg and sperm? I do not believe it was Mary's in any sense. I believe Mary was a vessel. ;):

I have been doing research on this topic because I have a friend who is a follower of William Branham, and they believe that Mary was just a "incubator", and that Jesus was created in her womb. However they also don't believe that Jesus was God. :(:

What I have learnt and believe is that Jesus had to be fully man and fully God to redeem us. Special protection has been given to the woman's seed for generations until such a time that God chose to by-pass the male seed and by virgin conception, let His Son come into the world. That is why He was sinless and why He did not have to die on the cross for He was immortal, but He chose to die for our sins.

During my studies I have come to realise what an awsome God we have. His plan of redemption is perfect in every way, down to the smallest detail.

[Beth]

snip


What I have learnt and believe is that Jesus had to be fully man and fully God to redeem us. Special protection has been given to the woman's seed for generations until such a time that God chose to by-pass the male seed and by virgin conception, let His Son come into the world. That is why He was sinless and why He did not have to die on the cross for He was immortal, but He chose to die for our sins.

Yes I agree. I don't know if you have read his work, but Dr. Arthur Custance wrote about this in his book, The Seed of the Woman. And, he explains in fascinating detail the basic biological distinctions in the way the female ova are generated down through time, as opposed to the male gametes - it's very interesting to read this, specially if one has any science background. Dr. Custance was a physiologist and a Bible believing Christian - his primary study was the physiology of human respiration and sweating and such but he clearly had a keen interest in understanding God's created world.

Here is a link if anyone would like to grab his online E-book:
http://custance.org/Library/SOTW/Index.html

He comments on quite a range of interesting bits, including a well reasoned explanation about the longevity of the antediluvian patriarchs, biological immortality of cells etc.

During my studies I have come to realise what an awsome God we have. His plan of redemption is perfect in every way, down to the smallest detail.

Oh yes indeed! Fearfully and wonderfully are we made!
:D:

[Beth]

snip

God certainly can form "God's only begotten, sinless son-God Himself" and place Him in the womb of this "Handmaiden", Mary-
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


Yes, God certainly could have created a body entirely distinct from the line of Adam, but then, not only would Jesus not be 'the son of David', but He could not be the 'Son of Man'. There is only one humankind, and we, poor stained wretches that we are, are it. If Jesus' body were an entirely separate creation from us, He would essentially be a different species, and not able to be our vicarious substitute. Did you ever wonder why Eve was taken out from Adam, rather than made a completely separate creation?
Humanity is all connected one to the other. At one point, we were ALL in Adam, even Eve. :):
And so, to really be a man, albeit a perfect one like Adam was before the fall, Jesus must be born from the seed of the woman.

[CountryBumpkin]

Yes, God certainly could have created a body entirely distinct from the line of Adam, but then, not only would Jesus not be 'the son of David', but He could not be the 'Son of Man'. There is only one humankind, and we, poor stained wretches that we are, are it. If Jesus' body were an entirely separate creation from us, He would essentially be a different species, and not able to be our vicarious substitute. Did you ever wonder why Eve was taken out from Adam, rather than made a completely separate creation?
Humanity is all connected one to the other. At one point, we were ALL in Adam, even Eve. :):
And so, to really be a man, albeit a perfect one like Adam was before the fall, Jesus must be born from the seed of the woman.

Beth, you have said it so much better and yes, I have learnt so much from Arthur Custance. I believe that he was gifted in that sense. Do you know that I printed out the whole of "The Seed of the Woman" to read at my liesure. A lot of paper and a lot of ink. :D: I am so glad to meet someone else that reads his works. He has made many scriptures more clear to me and caused to to dig deep into my Bible.

:wave

[Hootmon]

THEN...JESUS was born WITHOUT SIN. Man is conceived IN sin. The 'corruptable seed' follows the Male line. Everyone except Jesus was considered to be of 'Adam's Seed'.


I really feel this verse about "The second Adam" clinches it. Jesus and Adam were the only people ever 'born' that did not have a 'natural' Father, and that is the comparison being drawn.


God certainly can form "God's only begotten, sinless son-God Himself" and place Him in the womb of this "Handmaiden", Mary-
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.Jesus wasnt simply a 'Son-God' as you put it. He was also fully Human...

If God didnt need Mary's flesh to be part of the process, then why not simply put Jesus on Earth 'fully formed' like Adam? Why the pretense of a 'birth'?

Sorry, but Mary must have contributed something to the fleshy component of Jesus.

[Hootmon]

Yes, God certainly could have created a body entirely distinct from the line of Adam, but then, not only would Jesus not be 'the son of David', but He could not be the 'Son of Man'. There is only one humankind, and we, poor stained wretches that we are, are it.

If Jesus' body were an entirely separate creation from us, He would essentially be a different species, and not able to be our vicarious substitute. Did you ever wonder why Eve was taken out from Adam, rather than made a completely separate creation? Well said. :thumb

[antsinmypants]

The 'corruptable seed' follows the Male line. Everyone except Jesus was considered to be of 'Adam's Seed'.


Jesus and Adam were the only people ever 'born' that did not have a 'natural' Father, and that is the comparison being drawn.


Jesus wasnt simply a 'Son-God' as you put it. He was also fully Human...

If God didnt need Mary's flesh to be part of the process, then why not simply put Jesus on Earth 'fully formed' like Adam? Why the pretense of a 'birth'?

Sorry, but Mary must have contributed something to the fleshy component of Jesus.


EXACTLY!

Biblically- to be "the seed (btw this means sperm/ova) of woman" Literally means that it has FEMALE OVUM involved. :lol

You cannot be "the seed of" something without SEED (sperm/ovum or plant seed which is sperm and ovum) involved.

BTW- the literal greek for "seed" is sperma. Can't get more literal than that.

[nooneuno]

The 'corruptable seed' follows the Male line. Everyone except Jesus was considered to be of 'Adam's Seed'.

Mary was of Adam's seed.

Truly..I thank you for all your responses here. I am looking into this further as it is very perplexing to me. Right now I am reading parts of Ryrie's Theology to see if there is more info on this.

I do NOT question Jesus being God and human at all. He IS GOd.

Jesus and Adam were the only people ever 'born' that did not have a 'natural' Father, and that is the comparison being drawn.

Jesus was without sin, yet fully man. Sinless. Adam was created without sin, yet "will" that fell to sin.

If Jesus' body were an entirely separate creation from us, He would essentially be a different species, and not able to be our vicarious substitute

Can God create human Adam and also create human Jesus/God? Incarnate, from the line of whom he was born of? The vessel he was born of? :confused

Please do not think I am debating this issue, as I am researching it as all you have written here has helped me immensely.

I do not know what to think of this at this point. :confused It is quite deep theology.
I'm still going to read into this more.

Thanks! :hug fascinating......

[Hootmon]

Mary was of Adam's seed. Yes. She was, and that is why the Catholic have it wrong when they claim that Mary was 'sinless'. However, Jesus was not born of Adam's seed. He was from the 'seed of a Woman', and that seed was given life from the Father.


I do NOT question Jesus being God and human at all. He IS GOd. :confused You seem to be contradicting yourself here...


Jesus was without sin, yet fully man. Sinless. Adam was created without sin, yet "will" that fell to sin. Adam didnt have the 'God' component in him the way Jesus did. Their flesh is similar, but their will is entirely different.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Something like eighty times, Jesus is recorded referring to Himself as the "Son of Man".

[nooneuno]

Originally Posted by nooneuno
Mary was of Adam's seed.

Yes. She was, and that is why the Catholic have it wrong when they claim that Mary was 'sinless'. However, Jesus was not born of Adam's seed. He was from the 'seed of a Woman', and that seed was given life from the Father.[/QUOTE]

YES!! I AM AWARE OF THAT!! IF Jesus was born of Mary's SEED, what I am implying is that Mary's SEED was of Adam..who was sinful! see??!!



[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuno
I do NOT question Jesus being God and human at all. He IS GOd.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here...

There is NO contradiction here. Jesus was fully human and fully God. I do not know if God created the human aspect of Jesus FROM MARY'S SEED OR Whether our omnipotent God created the human aspect of Jesus from God's forming a human BODY for Jesus that WAS GOD..see??? get it?

I acknowlege Jesus was fully human and yet God.. clear enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuno
Jesus was without sin, yet fully man. Sinless. Adam was created without sin, yet "will" that fell to sin.

Adam didnt have the 'God' component in him the way Jesus did. Their flesh is similar, but their will is entirely different.

OF COURSE IT WAS.You are not reading what I wrote here.

Adam was not God. Jesus IS God.
Flesh similar as they both were human. Jesus is God, Adam nor anyone else is/was not.


Something like eighty times, Jesus is recorded referring to Himself as the "Son of Man".

Yes..Jesus was Son of Man..why can not this Son of man be born of man, still God, but NOT the SEED of Mary?

Can not God created a fully HUMAN IN Mary that is not the DNA of Mary?

The SEED Of Mary was with Sin.

[Hootmon]

The SEED Of Mary was with Sin.THat is not correct.

The 'corruption' follows the Male line, as does the 'life'.

That is why the 'seed of a Woman' was required, and why the 'male' component could not be 'human'.

[nooneuno]

O.k....now this is sounding a bit Catholic?

Mary was without sin you are saying??

Originally Posted by nooneuno
The SEED Of Mary was with Sin.

THat is not correct.

The 'corruption' follows the Male line, as does the 'life'.

That is why the 'seed of a Woman' was required, and why the 'male' component could not be 'human'.

Mary was a sinner as much a AdamAND Eve were. Both were sinners. Mary's seed was with sin.

Luke 1:46 My spirit Rejoices in God MY Savior...

[Hootmon]

O.k....now this is sounding a bit Catholic?

Mary was without sin you are saying?? I never said any such thing. I said that its the Male 'seed' that carries the 'corruption'.


Mary was a sinner as much a AdamAND Eve were. Both were sinners. I agree.


Mary's seed was with sin.No. It wasnt. That's just the point.

Is the following verse prophetic of Jesus or not...? Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel. If it is, then the 'seed of a woman' cannot be 'corrupt'...

[nooneuno]

The female seed being human is corrupted also.

Mary was with sin as much a Adam and Eve were.

[Hootmon]

The female seed being human is corrupted also. Can you back up that opinion with Scripture?


Mary was with sin as much a Adam and Eve were.I have already agreed with this statement. Its your conclusion that I disagree with.

[nooneuno]

Originally Posted by nooneuno
Mary was a sinner as much a AdamAND Eve were. Both were sinners.

I agree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuno
Mary's seed was with sin.

No. It wasnt. That's just the point.

Is the following verse prophetic of Jesus or not...?
Quote:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.

If it is, then the 'seed of a woman' cannot be 'corrupt'...

So..if Mary was a sinner needing the salvation of the Savior, Jesus as anyone else does, then Mary's seed was with sin...

so...

This is why I believe that Jesus was not of the seed/DNA of Mary. He was created fully HUMAN, yet God, BY GOD within the "vessel" Mary who is "Called" his mother ( as an adopted child calls their mother, mother)

[Hootmon]

So..if Mary was a sinner needing the salvation of the Savior, Jesus as anyone else does, then Mary's seed was with sin... As I asked before, can you back up that opinion with Scripture?

Also, you didnt answer my question about that Genesis verse...



This is why I believe that Jesus was not of the seed/DNA of Mary. He was created fully HUMAN, yet God, BY GOD within the "vessel" Mary who is "Called" his mother ( as an adopted child calls their mother, mother) Ever hear of the concept of 'Kinsman Redeemer'?

Jesus had to be our 'kin' in order to 'redeem' us. Being a 'adopted son' of Mary would not have been sufficient

You may want to study the book of Ruth a bit...

[nooneuno]

Originally Posted by nooneuno
The female seed being human is corrupted also.

Can you back up that opinion with Scripture

Romans 3 23--For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God!


Luke2:22-- Here she presented an offering to the Jewish priest out of her sinful nature!

[nooneuno]

YOu don't need to tell me what book of the Bible I have to read here.

Nextly..what scripture in Genesis did you ask me about?

Kinsman???? what in the world are you talking about??

Is this an exemption from sin for Mary? so Mary was sinless in your opnion?

[nooneuno]

God no longer counts the sins against those who have trusted Jesus as their substitute--SAVIOR Rom. 4:8; 2 Cor. 5:21. God laid all our sins, past and future, on Jesus (Isaiah 53:6).

Our kinsman redeemer if that is what you'd refer Jesus as --“bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness”
1 Pet. 2:24
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Where is this word "Kinsman" found in the Bible in application to Jesus our SAvior?

Num 5:8 But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the LORD, [even] to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him.

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Num 27:11 And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family, and he shall possess it: and it shall be unto the children of Israel a statute of judgment, as the LORD commanded Moses.

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Rth 2:1 And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name [was] Boaz.

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Rth 3:9 And he said, Who [art] thou? And she answered, I [am] Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou [art] a near kinsman.

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Rth 3:12 And now it is true that I [am thy] near kinsman: howbeit there is a kinsman nearer than I.

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Rth 3:13 Tarry this night, and it shall be in the morning, [that] if he will perform unto thee the part of a kinsman, well; let him do the kinsman's part: but if he will not do the part of a kinsman to thee, then will I do the part of a kinsman to thee, [as] the LORD liveth: lie down until the morning.

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Rth 4:1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.

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Rth 4:3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which [was] our brother Elimelech's:

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Rth 4:6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem [it] for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance: redeem thou my right to thyself; for I cannot redeem [it].

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Rth 4:8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy [it] for thee. So he drew off his shoe.

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Rth 4:14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed [be] the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.

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Jhn 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being [his] kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?

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Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.


What does this have to do with Mary?

[nooneuno]

Last note here:

Mary was a sinner like the rest of us, in need for redemption from the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Romans 3 23--For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

From Adam,Eve--->> to present. We are ALL in need of the Savior, Jesus.

This is where I will stand that Jesus did not have the "seed of Mary" in his human being. God created the fully human, yet God, Jesus, and was PLACED within virgin Mary--- born without sin, took upon our sins on the cross, bled and died for us so that we might have eternal life. Jesus did this also for Mary.

[antsinmypants]

Romans 3 23--For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God!


Luke2:22-- Here she presented an offering to the Jewish priest out of her sinful nature!

1. The offering was not for sin- it was for purification after childbirth!
there are more offerings for other things than sin!

2. Mary's "Sperma" was needed for Y'shua to be born according to the LXX. Since women don't have "Sperma" what do they have? OVUM

[antsinmypants]

Our kinsman redeemer if that is what you'd refer Jesus as --“bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness”
1 Pet. 2:24
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Where is this word "Kinsman" found in the Bible in application to Jesus our SAvior?



Kinsman Redeemer / Kinsman Redemption is needed for someone who is a slave to be redeemed before the jubilee year, or for someone who is widowed to be "championed" and saved from poverty and given children.

The "SOD Level" teaching of the Kinsman Redeemer is part and parcel a picture of Messiah's redemption of mankind. For Hebraic writers to say "Y'shua is our Kinsman Redeemer"- means more than anyone who doesn't know what that means- can ever know without research.

[antsinmypants]

Last note here:

Mary was a sinner like the rest of us, in need for redemption from the Savior, Jesus Christ.


DUH! Did anyone on this thread say that? NO.
Even Mary says that He is/was her Saviour!

This is where I will stand that Jesus did not have the "seed of Mary" in his human being. God created the fully human, yet God, Jesus, and was PLACED within virgin Mary--- born without sin, took upon our sins on the cross, bled and died for us so that we might have eternal life. Jesus did this also for Mary.

Hello, again - "Seed of woman" Means SPERMA- SEED literal, FLESH.. BORN... OVUM.. Seed literal, FLESH... BORN.


There is no "Spiritual seed" besides Messiah or HaSatan. One cannot be born of the spiritual without the PHYSICAL birth of the "G-d~Man".

The designation at first about the "Seed of woman" starts in Genesis 3 and works throughout the prophets. Isaiah has a passage that speaks of the virgin birth of Messiah. This means a woman who never ever (EVER!!) had sexual relations with a man, who NEVER had "breach" there- was "inseminated" (if you want to used that word) by the Ruach HaKodesh (HS) so that Messiah would be born.

Ever since Eve, every Hebrew woman looked forward to that birth and hoped and prayed they would be that one righteous virgin that would usher in that birth.


IF (big if here, which would negate scripture and it's meanings) the virgin who gave birth did not donate an egg... and was just a "pot" for the "food" that was inside- the "Food" that is borne of the "pot" would not be human at all.

We are told repeatedly he is the Son of Man and the Son of G-d.

You can't be "the Son of Man" without being born of an Ova.

[HeIsEnough]

This is where I will stand that Jesus did not have the "seed of Mary" in his human being. God created the fully human, yet God, Jesus, and was PLACED within virgin Mary

I do not believe that is biblically sustainable.

The scriptures record genealogies for a reason.

[antsinmypants]

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


And I will put [07896] shiyth
enmity [0342] 'eybah
between thee and the woman, [0802] 'ishshah
and between thy seed [02233] zera`
and her seed; [02233] zera`
it shall bruise [07779] shuwph
thy head, [07218] ro'sh
and thou shalt bruise [07779] shuwph
his heel. [06119] `aqeb


Note- Zera in Hebrew- it's equivalent is Sperma in Greek.


Hebrew for 02233

Pronunciation Guide
zera` {zeh'-rah}
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) seed, sowing, offspring
a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
e) of moral quality
1) a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
f) sowing time (by meton)

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 229
AV - seed 221, child 2, carnally + 07902 2, carnally 1, fruitful 1,
seedtime 1, sowing time 1; 229
zera` (Strong's 02233) occurs 229 times in 205 verses



Here's a GREAT example of "Promised Seed" aka Promised ovum/sperm

Gen 17:19 And God said , Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed02233 after him.


Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen , the seed02233 of Abraham my friend.

Isa 45:25 In YHVH shall all the seed02233 of Israel be made righteous, and shall glory.


After Y'shua, we are told- his seed (Sperma/zera) will be *spiritual*. Before Him, we see no indication of "spiritual zera/sperma".


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YHVH to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed02233, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of YHVH shall prosper in his hand.




Here is reference to Mary's sacrifice for her PURIFICATION (not from sin, but the birth of Y'shua):

Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Lev 12:4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.


She is unclean and declared clean for one day to have her son circumcised, and then in her uncleanness for 33 days.
This is also a picture of the things that MUST be made full of meaning by the coming of Messiah.



We find in Revelation the "Seed of woman" that the Beast is "wroth" (angered/making war with) with:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Messiah Y'shua.


And [2532] kai
the dragon [1404] drakon
was wroth [3710] orgizo
with [1909] epi
the woman, [1135] gune
and [2532] kai
went [565] aperchomai
to make [4160] poieo
war [4171] polemos
with [3326] meta
the remnant [3062] loipoy
of her [846] autos
seed, [4690] sperma
which [3588] ho
keep [5083] tereo
the commandments [1785] entole
of God, [2316] theos
and [2532] kai
have [2192] echo
the testimony [3141] marturia
of Y'shua [2424] Iesous
Messiah. [5547] Christos


Greek for 4690
sperma {sper'-mah}
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) from which a plant germinates
a) the seed i.e. the grain or kernel which contains within itself the germ of the future plants
1) of the grains or kernels sown
b) metaph. a seed i.e. a residue, or a few survivors reserved as the germ of the next generation (just as seed is kept from the harvest for the sowing)
2) the semen virile
a) the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny
b) family, tribe, posterity
c) whatever possesses vital force or life giving power
1) of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 44
AV - seed 43, issue 1; 44

sperma (Strong's 4690) occurs 44 times in 41 verses in the New Testament.

[Hootmon]

Romans 3 23--For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God! You cant be serious.


Luke2:22-- Here she presented an offering to the Jewish priest out of her sinful nature!:confused Luk 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were fulfilled, they brought Him to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord

[Hootmon]

You don't need to tell me what book of the Bible I have to read here. There is no need to get angry...


Nextly..what scripture in Genesis did you ask me about? Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.

I asked you if you agree that it it prophetic of Jesus...


Kinsman???? what in the world are you talking about?? 'Kinsman Redeemer'. The book of Ruth explains the concept from a practical perspective, and it was most definately prominant among the things that Jesus was sent to accomplish.

{Edit: The clearest Scriptural accounts of the Kinsman Redeemer can be found in Leviticus 25 and Ruth 1-4}


Is this an exemption from sin for Mary? so Mary was sinless in your opnion? I have said No to that question twice already. Here it is again... Mary was NOT sinless... The 'seed of a Woman', any woman, IS 'uncorrupted' by sin. Its the Male seed that carries the corruption, and that is why everyone ever born with the exception of Jesus is called the 'seed of Adam', and not 'Eve'...

[Hootmon]

The scriptures record genealogies for a reason.Another good point.

[Hootmon]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Messiah Y'shua. Almost forgot about that one.

[Hootmon]

I created a new thread to more fully discuss the concept of a Kinsman Redeemer.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=2386295

[antsinmypants]

This is where PaRDeS and Dynamic Studies *must* be done - lest we fall into cultic/unbiblical teachings:


Again:

G4690
sperma {sper'-mah}

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) from which a plant germinates
a) the seed i.e. the grain or kernel which contains within itself the germ of the future plants
1) of the grains or kernels sown
b) metaph. a seed i.e. a residue, or a few survivors reserved as the germ of the next generation (just as seed is kept from the harvest for the sowing)
2) the semen virile
a) the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny
b) family, tribe, posterity
c) whatever possesses vital force or life giving power
1) of divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated


Mat 13:24 ...seed 4690 in his field:

Mat 13:27...seed 4690 in thy field?

Mat 13:32 ...least of all seeds 4690...

Mat 13:37 ...soweth the good seed 4690 is the Son of man...

Mat 13:38... the good seed 4690 are the children of the kingdom...

Mat 22:24 ... If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed 4690 unto his brother...

Mat 22:25 ...when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue 4690,...

Mar 4:31 ...less than all the seeds 4690 that be in the earth...


Mar 12:19 ...raise up seed 4690 unto his brother...

Mar 12:20 ...dying left no seed 4690...

Mar 12:21...any seed 4690...

Mar 12:22 ...left no seed 4690...

Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed 4690 for ever.

Luk 20:28 ...take his wife, and raise up seed 4690 ...

John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Messiah cometh of the seed 4690 of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem ...?

Jhn 8:33 ...We be Abraham'sseed 4690...

Jhn 8:37 ...ye are Abraham's seed 4690...

Act 3:25 ...Abraham, And in thy seed 4690 shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Act 7:5 ...to his seed 4690 after him...

Act 7:6 ... That his seed 4690 should sojourn in a strange land...

Act 13:23 Of this man's seed 4690 hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Y'shua:


Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Messiah Y'shua our Lord, which was made of the seed 4690 of David according to the flesh 4561;


Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed 4690...


Rom 4:16 ...the promise might be sure to all the seed 4690..


Rom 4:18 ...So shall thy seed be...

Rom 9:7 ...they are the seed 4690 of Abraham... In Isaac shall thy seed 4690 be called.

Rom 9:8 ...the children of the promise are counted for the seed 4690.

Rom 9:29 ...YHVH Sabaoth had left us a seed...

Rom 11:1 ...I also am an Israelite, of the seed 4690 of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin .

1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed 4690 his own body.


2Cr 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed 4690 to the sower both minister bread for [your] food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness...

2Cr 11:22 ... Are they the seed4690 of Abraham? so [am] I.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed 4690 were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds 4690, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed 4690, which is Messiah.

Gal 3:19 ...till the seed 4690 should come to whom the promise was made ...

Gal 3:29 And if ye Messiah's, then are ye Abraham's seed 4690...

[b]2Ti 2:8 Remember that Messiah Y'shua of the seed 4690 of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel..

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed 4690 of Abraham.

Hbr 11:11 ..Sara herself received strength to conceive seed 4690...

Hbr 11:18 ...in Isaac shall thy seed 4690 be called...

1Jo 3:9...his seed 4690 remaineth...

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed 4690..

[nooneuno]

I do not believe from what I read in the Bible that Jesus had the human seed of Mary.
God called Mary to be the one to carry the Son of God.


Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord {is} with you." But she was very perplexed at {this} statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."
Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God

If Mary's human "egg" were involved in this "conception" then you are saying it had to be God's sperm??

I do not think so. God is God is God. What God placed in her womb was Jesus formed by God but not chromosomally RELATED to Mary. Jesus was/Is DIVINE.

16. And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus--From this it is clear that the genealogy here given is not that of Mary, but of Joseph; nor has this ever been questioned. And yet it is here studiously proclaimed that Joseph was not the natural, but only the legal father of our Lord. His birth of a virgin was known only to a few; but the acknowledged descent of his legal father from David secured that the descent of Jesus Himself from David should never be questioned. See on JF & B for Mt 1:20.-Jamieson, Fausett & Brown
35. Holy Ghost--(See on JF & B for Mt 1:18).
power of the highest--the immediate energy of the Godhead conveyed by the Holy Ghost.
overshadow--a word suggesting how gentle, while yet efficacious, would be this Power ; and its mysterious secrecy, withdrawn, as if by a cloud, from human scrutiny [CALVIN].
that holy thing born of thee--that holy Offspring of thine.
therefore . . . Son of God--That Christ is the Son of God in His[B] divine and eternal nature is clear from all the New Testament; yet here we see that Sonship efflorescing into human and palpable manifestation by His being born, through "the power of the Highest," an Infant of days. We must neither think of a double Sonship, as some do, harshly and without all ground, nor deny what is here plainly expressed, the connection between His human birth and His proper personal Sonship.Jamieson, Fausett & Brown

16. And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus--From this it is clear that the genealogy here given is not that of Mary, but of Joseph; nor has this ever been questioned. And yet it is here studiously proclaimed that Joseph was not the natural, but only the legal father of our Lord. His birth of a virgin was known only to a few; but the acknowledged descent of his legal father from David secured that the descent of Jesus Himself from David should never be questioned. See on JF & B for Mt 1:20

22, 24. her purification--Though the most and best copies read "their," it was the mother only who needed purifying from the legal uncleanness of childbearing. "The days" of this purification for a male child were forty in all ( Lev 12:2, 4 ), on the expiry of which the mother was required to offer a lamb for a burnt offering, and a turtle dove or a young pigeon for a sin offering. If she could not afford a lamb, the mother had to bring another turtle dove or young pigeon; and, if even this was beyond her means, then a portion of fine flour, but without the usual fragrant accompaniments of oil and frankincense, as it represented a sin offering ( Lev 12:6-8 5:7-11 ). From the intermediate offering of "a pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons," we gather that Joseph and the Virgin were in poor circumstances ( 2Cr 8:9 ), though not in abject poverty. Being a first-born male, they "bring him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord." All such had been claimed as "holy to the Lord," or set apart to sacred uses, in memory of the deliverance of the first-born of Israel from destruction in Egypt, through the sprinkling of blood ( Exd 13:2 ). In lieu of these, however, one whole tribe, that of Levi, was accepted, and set apart to occupations exclusively sacred ( Num 3:11-38 ); and whereas there were two hundred seventy-three fewer Levites than first-born of all Israel on the first reckoning, each of these first-born was to be redeemed by the payment of five shekels, yet not without being "presented (or brought) unto the Lord," in token of His rightful claim to them and their service ( Num 3:44-47 18:15, 16 ). It was in obedience to this "law of Moses," that the Virgin presented her babe unto the Lord, "in the east gate of the court called Nicanor's Gate, where she herself would be sprinkled by the priest with the blood of her sacrifice" [LIGHTFOOT]. By that Babe, in due time, we were to be redeemed, "not with corruptible things as silver and gold, but with the precious blood of Christ" ( 1Pe 1:18, 19 ), and the consuming of the mother's burnt offering, and the sprinkling of her with the blood of her sin offering, were to find their abiding realization in the "living sacrifice" of the Christian mother herself, in the fulness of a "heart sprinkled from an evil conscience," by "the blood which cleanseth from all sin."

WHO Mary carried in her womb was all God, not part Mary.
Jesus was ALL GOD.

Holy Mary, Mother of God?What a statement! Is it true? Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Bible clearly teaches that the only HOLY one is God. Mary in what is known as her Magnificat, rejoices in God HER SAVIOR (Lk.1: 47). Holiness does not need saving. Mary, after the birth of Jesus, offers a sacrifice for HER SINS. Holiness need not offer a sacrifice for sins. Mary, as any believer, received her righteousness as a gift from the Father. There was nothing inherently holy about Mary. Even Thomas Aquinas denies the "immaculate conception" of Mary. Regarding the "Mother of God" statement much not need be said. God was not born nor was He created. Mary gave birth to the "humanity" of Jesus. Jesus was God, because He is God! The statement "Mother of God" developed out of a reaction to the denial of the Deity of Jesus by some. That overreaction has resulted in the tail wagging the dog so to speak. Mary was the vessel by which the incarnation took place but she was not the supplier of Divine chromosomes.http://www.reachingcatholics.org/hailmarymd.html

This is my OPINION as you have YOUR opinion..so I let this stand.

If I find more info on this I will post it.

[nooneuno]

HYPOSTATICAL UNION

"This concept of the hypostatic union or one-person union of the divine and human natures in one Person is probably one of the most difficult concepts to comprehend in theology. Not one of us has ever seen Deity except as the Scriptures reveal God, and not one of us has ever seen perfect humanity except as the Scriptures reveal pre-fallen Adam and our Lord. To try to relate these two concepts to the person of Christ adds complexities to ideas that are in themselves difficult to comprehend" (Ryrie, Systematic Theology, p. 250).

Two questions, therefore, must be answered before the doctrine of the incarnation can be correctly understood: (1) What is meant by the term "nature," and (2) What is meant by "person."

Nature as used of the humanity of Christ includes all that belongs to His humanity. As applied to the deity of Christ it includes everything that belongs to His Deity. "Nature and person are not synonymous. Persons have natures, yet personhood involves more than a nature. Person includes nature plus independent subsistence or reality embracing intellect, emotion, and will. The Son of God, who was one in person and nature (divine), became two in nature (divine and human) while remaining one in person through the incarnation, The eternal Son of God did not join himself with a human person, it must be remembered, but with a human nature" (Lightner 82). "The concept of nature refers to 'the sum-total of all the essential qualities of a thing, that which makes it what it is. The term person means 'a complete substance endowed with reason, and consequently, a responsible subject of its own actions'.. . . Thus, God is a person with a divine nature. An angel is person with an angelic nature. A man is a person with a human nature" (Gromaki 107.)

Charles Hodge gives the following principles in his discussion on the Hypostatical Union:

"(1) It is intuitively certain that attributes, properties, and power or force, necessarily imply a substance of which they are manifestations. Of nothing, nothing can be predicated. That of which we can predicate the attributes either of matter or mind, must of necessity be a reality. (2) It is no less certain that where the attributes are incompatible, the substances must be different and distinct. That which is extended cannot be unextended. That which is divisible cannot be indivisible, That which is incapable of thought cannot think. That which is finite cannot be infinite, (3) Equally certain is that attributes cannot exist distinct and separate from substance. . . .otherwise there might be extension without anything extended, and thought without anything that thinks. (4) Again, it is intuitively certain that the attributes of one substance cannot be transferred to another. Matter cannot be endowed with the attributes of mind; for then it would cease to be matter, Mind cannot be invested with the properties of matter, for then it would cease to be mind; neither can humanity be possessed of the attributes of divinity, for then it would cease to be humanity. This is only saying that the finite cannot be infinite. Speaking in general terms, in the whole of human thought, these principles have been recognized as axiomatic; and their denial puts an end to discussion" (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, vol. 2 p.387).

In light of these universal principles, Hodge goes on to say that when the Scriptures speak of Jesus Christ as sorrowful, joyful, increasing in wisdom or being ignorant of things, it can only mean that God intends us to understand that Jesus was a real man. Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of Jesus possessing attributes of deity such as omniscient, power, and eternity (to name but a few), it is because God intends us to understand that Jesus is very God. Since God intends us to understand that Jesus is both God and man, possessing divine and human nature, then also we must understand that these two natures are distinct in the one person Jesus Christ, meaning, the two natures are "unchanged, without mixture or confusion;" for attributes cannot exist apart from substance, and incapatable attributes cannot be mingled together and must remain distinct. The gospels never give any indication that even remotely suggest that He was anything but one person. In all His actions, and attributes, the gospels present to us one person who is called Jesus Christ. Yet of this one person, Divine and human attributes are predicted.

Jesus Christ, then, is one Person, co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of time Jesus Christ took to Himself a human nature, being born of the Virgin Mary. As a result, this One Person has two natures--one Divine, one human.

Although the Scriptures teach that Christ is both God and man, fully human and fully Divine, Jesus Christ is not two persons. The person who from eternity existed with the glorious Godhead, the second Person of the Trinity, is the same person who has manifested in the flesh at the virgin birth. He did not assume a human person, making Him two persons, but He assumed human nature. In the gospels Jesus Christ always referred to Himself with the personal pronouns "I" and "Me," and never suggest duality of persons. We find also in the Scriptures that in some passages both natures are referred to, but clearly one person is intended. Philippians 2:6-11 is one such example. (See also Gal. 4:4-5; Rom. 1:3-4).

Jesus' Divinity and humanity are not mingled or combined together, but each remains distinct from the other. Can the visible also be invisible, or the infinite finite? Neither can Christ's two natures be so mingled together that one over shadows the other nor combine together forming a separate entity. If it were possible, then Jesus would be neither God nor man. But the Scripture teaches that Jesus is both God and man, therefore His two natures are and will ever be distinct. He is God-man.

Without question "We have arrived at the edge of the deepest mystery-- as man, Christ was born of Mary (Luke 2:7), as God, He had no father or mother (Heb. 7:3); as man, He grew up (Luke 2:52), as God, He does not change (Heb. 13:8); as man, He slept in a boat (Matt. 8:24), as God, He upholds the universe by His power (Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3); as man, He died (Luke 23:46), as God, He lives forever (Heb. 7:3, 22-25)" (Barnes, The Milk of the Word, p. 45).

These truths are difficult to understand. But as B. B. Warfield remarked,

"No doubt it is difficult to conceive of two complete and perfect natures united in one person; but that once conceived, all that the Scriptures say about Jesus follows as a -matter of course"(Warfield "The Human Development of Jesus."A most valuable article on Christ's humanity and union of the two natures.)

It is the failure to recognize and understand this doctrine that has resulted in the many cultic attacks and denial of the Deity of Jesus Christ. Because the Scripture presents to the reader a very real and very human Christ, it is denied that He is truly God. But the Scripture presents to use not merely a man, or merely Deity, but Jesus Christ, the God-man, who is the only object of true saving faith. :thumb :nod
http://www.mbrem.com/jesus_Christ/incarnat.htm

[nooneuno]

The hypostatic union is the term used to described how God the Son, Jesus Christ took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God, but at the incarnation, Jesus took on human flesh - He became a human being. The result of the combination of the divine and human nature is Jesus, the God-man.



Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one person or personality.



The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine that we are incapable to fully understanding. In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person.
The Moody Handbook of Theology--Paul Enns

[nooneuno]

"Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered. He is not merely a man who 'had God within Him' nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. 'The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word,' (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not 'mixed together,' nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union." [1] (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm)

Table of contents [showhide]
1 Hypostasis and ousia

2 Council of Chalcedon, A.D. 451

3 See also

4 External

[edit]Hypostasis and ousia
"Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation... Previous to the Council of Nicea (325) hypostasis was synonymous with ousia, and even St. Augustine (De Trin., V, 8) avers that he sees no difference between them. The distinction in fact was brought about gradually in the course of the controversies to which the Christological heresies gave rise, and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person... They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united." [2] (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm)

[AnotherOldGuy]

Jesus took on human flesh - He became a human being.

Which was it? You give two different scenarios there. Taking on flesh and becoming human are two different things. Which did Jesus do?



Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person.

Where in scripture do you see that Jesus, while on earth, had two distinct natures?

Jesus said that His will and the Father's will didn't always co-incide. BUT, He always chose to do the Father's will.

(John 5:30) "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

(Mat 26:39) He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."




other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21).

(John 11:41) Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.

(John 11:42) "And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me."

(John 11:43) Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"


If you note, Lazarus came to life as a result of Jesus' prayer.



(Mat 14:18) He said, "Bring them here to Me."

(Mat 14:19) Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes.

(Mat 14:20) So they all ate and were filled, and they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments that remained.

Can you know what He prayed as He looked to heaven?

Were the apostles demonstrating their deity when they healed people?



The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time.
And from what I've seen, it does an erroneous job of it.



a doctrine that we are incapable to fully understanding.
Why?

Jesus came as a human being to do what Adam had the ability of doing, but didn't. He gave up His equality with God to do that, but was restored after His work was done.

[Hootmon]

overshadow youThis is a euphamism for a man coming together with his wife...

I dont want to be overly graphic, but I assume you get the idea.

The very terminology used implies a 'normal' conception. Im sorry that you refuse to see this, nooneuno...

If Mary's human "egg" were involved in this "conception" then you are saying it had to be God's sperm?? God 'quickened' Mary's egg. Since the 'life' comes from the Man, its the same 'thing' but in a different 'form'. No need to be overly physical when picturing what happened. Mary remained a virgin throughout the entire process...

This is my OPINION as you have YOUR opinion..so I let this stand.Your 'opinion' seems o be largely based on Catholic appologetics, if your post is any indication...

As far as the next few posts are concerned, Im not in the mood for cross cut-and-pasting.

Unless I missed it, I still havent seen you respond to my twice asked question... Mary's seed was with sin.No. It wasnt. That's just the point.

Is the following verse prophetic of Jesus or not...? Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel. If it is, then the 'seed of a woman' cannot be 'corrupt'...

[CountryBumpkin]

The Lord did not contravene
the design of the natural order
in bringing the Redeemer into the world.

He put nature to a higher service,
a service for which it was designed
in the first place.

written by Arthur Custance.

Luke1:31 And behold, you shall conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,and shall call His name Jesus.

Definition of "conceive":
to sow, scatter seed
(Qal)
to sow
producing, yielding seed
(Niphal)
to be sown
to become pregnant, be made pregnant
(Pual) to be sown
(Hiphil) to produce seed, yield seed

[antsinmypants]

...overshadow you....

This is a euphamism for a man coming together with his wife...

:nod :redface

Same as "cover you"/"covered" does.. :redface ;):


To be fully human AND fully divine, one MUST have human DNA. Impossible to do without Sperm OR Ovum.

AND AGAIN, I mention how imperitive it is to look at the Greek & hebrew here. It says SEED (Sperma) -- which I mean LITERALLY is where we get the word SPERM as the medical term of how a child is born of a man and woman.

Not to mention that both the Greek and Hebrew carry the meaning of Sperm and or Ovum-- and SEED from plants.. Seeds from plants have *both* to reproduce.

Are we humans any different? Was Y'shua? NO.

[Benja32one]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong here. In the old testament, fallen angels(demons) saw that women were beautiful and took on the form of men and had sex with the women and the Nephilim were born.

Satan and/or demons can only counterfiet the real thing. Based on this biblical fact it does not seem impossible at all that God would use the "seed of the woman" along with His PERFECTION to allow Jesus to be born a perfect human man to take back what Adam lost for the human race.
HE WAS THE SEED, 'seed' was used in other places as referring to a descendant. Galatians 3.16 &19. :): :nod

[nooneuno]

I do not believe the same way as you..so I'm off this thread.

I believe Jesus was solely God created human within Mary.

As far as seed is concerned..this was out of her womb.
overshadowed was an act of GOD, not man..so who knows how this occured.

It is ALL speculative.

Bye.

[Hootmon]

I do not believe the same way as you..so I'm off this thread.

I believe Jesus was solely God created human within Mary. When you first joined this thread you said you hadnt made your mind up yet. That doesnt appear to be the case...


As far as seed is concerned..this was out of her womb.
overshadowed was an act of GOD, not man..so who knows how this occured.

It is ALL speculative. There are some clear indications as to exactly what happened. There are numerous examples posted above. You just seem to have chosen to ignore them...


Bye.I guess that means I dont get an answer to my question...

Just in case you change your mind, here it is again... Is the following verse prophetic of Jesus or not...?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel. If this verse isnt prophetic of Jesus, then who exactly is the 'He' referred to as 'her Seed'?