Suppose

[Timothy]

SUPPOSE
by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam
Appeared in The Berean Searchlight - February 1999 Issue


Suppose it were true that a person once saved could be lost again.

Suppose such a person, to gain heaven, would then have to be saved all over again.

But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second time and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire — after having once been “saved”?

In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire. Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence of sin. None this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.

What was he saved from then? The answer is: Nothing at all.

He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.

Salvation, to be anything more than a mere term, must be everlasting. Any person who has been saved has been eternally saved. No one is saved until he is eternally saved. Anyone who dies in a lost condition never was saved at all.

Does this mean we must wait until after this life is over to find out? No. We may be saved now and know it. This is evident from such passages as I Corinthians 1:18, where the Apostle Paul refers to “us which are saved.”

How can we be saved?

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”—that’s what to do.

“And thou shalt be saved”—that’s when you get it (Acts 16:31).

And “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”— that’s how long it lasts (Rom. 6:23).

[HeIsEnough]

:bump

[zealous4zion]

Thanks Timothy! :wave

[kenneth]

Allow me to rephrase the article in a different context and see how it sounds. Suppose a person was given a gift, one which would save his life from a future illness. Let us say that person carelessly left that gift on a bus, and it was never seen again. That person soon afterwards got ill and died. In what sense did this person ever have a gift? Did that gift ever save him from anything? If not, was that gift ever worth anything in the first place? Shall we say, "Why certainly not"? Is the fault of gift giver that the person who received it did not give it the reasonable care it deserved?

"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:5)
"And do not grumble, as some of them did--and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:10-12)
"if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:12)
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Eze 18:24 )

[holyspiritvesse]

Beautiful, Timothy.

Kenneth:

#1 - those that believed not were destroyed.

#2 - The person is 'THINKING' they are standing firm ON THEIR ON STRENGTH, not God's.

#3 - It is referring to 'A PERSON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS' which they have done, which is not saving Grace. A person's righteousness WILL ALWAYS FAIL, WILL NEVER ENDURE TO THE END.

Remember, Jesus didn't come for the Righteous, but for the sick. The Righteous do not see their wretchedness.

Either Jesus has saved you or He hasn't. Either He is your Savior or what you do to stay saved by your own power is your savior, which will not save you at all because you have not truly trusted in Christ and Christ ALONE for salvation.

Been there, done that, threw away the T-shirt.

[sara_bug]

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I believe these scriptures point out that if you are once saved you can turn cold.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

**********************************

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man [shall be satisfied] from himself.

What is a backslider?
Don't you have to once be saved to backslide?

[Danimus]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a very difficult verse to get around.

I am in full agreement with Kenneth.

I have a question for anyone OSAS. What role did you play in coming to accept Christ as Lord and Savior?

[B A N E]

Adjustment to the *gift* argument.
What if that gift is your very heart?
Can you tear it out?
Can you forget it somewhere?
Can you?

Make it one step more difficult.
What if that gift is: The heart, mind and spirit of God.
Can you tear it out?
Can you forget it?
Can you leave it somewhere?
Does your hand reach so far?

Those that believe in OSnAS, can you buy that which has been dedicated
to the Lord. Search the Law to find out the cost of repurchasing from God
that which has been given to God.

Consider that the purchase price for you was God's own son.

Consider that you are a slave to God. (you were bought for a price).
Look up the definition of slave.

As for *role played*, the answer lies in the difference between volition and freewill.

[Hootmon]

I have a question for anyone OSAS. What role did you play in coming to accept Christ as Lord and Savior?There is a sequence of events that lead to Salvation...Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Preaching leads to Hearing leads to Believing leads to 'calling on Him'.

The 'role' that anyone has in their Salvation is in the 'hearing' step. Those that actually 'listen attentively', then proceed to the next steps.

[HeIsEnough]

There is a sequence of events that lead to Salvation... Preaching leads to Hearing leads to Believing leads to 'calling on Him'.

:thumb

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

[Timothy]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a very difficult verse to get around.

Actually, the reverse is true for objectors to eternal security. For the sake of argument, let's assume that this passage is about losing salvation, as you imply. What does the passage say, in this assumed context?

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In that assumed context, the passage says that it is impossible to get "re-saved" - there's no coming back.

I have a question for anyone OSAS. What role did you play in coming to accept Christ as Lord and Savior?

Other than having faith, that's the only role I played. We are saved by grace through faith. Our personal righteousness is not an issue. The moment someone is saved, over 30 different things happen to that person. As salvation is totally the work of Christ, our God given position in Christ is that we have been made "dead to sin," "free from sin," "dead to the law," etc.

[Danimus]

So you are saying that you had no role whatsoever in your accepting of Christ as Lord and Savior?

And yeah, I understand what you're saying about that Hebrews verse...I believe what is covered here is someone like Karl Marx, who not only fell away but was at enmity with God. My point was not that you can accept, reject, accept again, reject again, then acept again for the big finale. All I am saying is that you can turn down Gods grace. Of course then the question may be...why would you?

[Benja32one]

Allow me to rephrase the article in a different context and see how it sounds. Suppose a person was given a gift, one which would save his life from a future illness. Let us say that person carelessly left that gift on a bus, and it was never seen again. That person soon afterwards got ill and died. In what sense did this person ever have a gift? Did that gift ever save him from anything? If not, was that gift ever worth anything in the first place? Shall we say, "Why certainly not"? Is the fault of gift giver that the person who received it did not give it the reasonable care it deserved?

"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:5)
"And do not grumble, as some of them did--and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:10-12)
"if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:12)
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Eze 18:24 )
That sir, is not what the Greek text states. 'upomevo' means to bear up under suffering, used many other places in the text to so designate a sufferer. It in no general usage means 'to endure' as to salvation. If you think differently....show me. :faint :nod

[Timothy]

So you are saying that you had no role whatsoever in your accepting of Christ as Lord and Savior?

And yeah, I understand what you're saying about that Hebrews verse...I believe what is covered here is someone like Karl Marx, who not only fell away but was at enmity with God. My point was not that you can accept, reject, accept again, reject again, then acept again for the big finale. All I am saying is that you can turn down Gods grace. Of course then the question may be...why would you?

I'm not sure what you exactly mean by role, but the only role that we have is making a decision (faith), either trusting or rejection. Salvation is entirely the work of God and is by grace alone. The only response that grace can accept is faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The moment someone is saved, God's work of salvation becomes unconditional. From that point forward, there are two separate aspects in the remainder of the earthly life of that individual: their position (who they are in Christ) and their practice (their experience, what they do). Some Christians easily forget this, and confuse or mix the two. The Apostle Paul clearly outlines what our position is in Christ.

1 - Our position via the cross is that we are made "dead to sin" in the eyes of God through Christ.

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 - Our position via the cross is that we are made "free from sin" in the eyes of God through Christ.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

The Apostle Paul outlines approximately 30 different items that happen when someone that is saved. The position of the individual is unchangable, as it is totally the work of Christ.

The practice or experience of the individual is entirely different. Though our position in Christ is that we are made dead to sin and free from sin, we obviously still sin (contrast Romans 6 and our position, vs. Romans 7 our practice). One's post-salvation practice (experience) will be addressed at the bema or judgement seat of Christ. In regards to righteousness, the content of our position is that we are clothed with his righteousness, while at the bema seat we stand naked and are judged for what we did post-salvation.

[kenneth]

If we disown him, he will also disown us" This is rather clear cut, and should be taken into account when interpeting the phrase "if we endure" which occurs before it. There would be no warnings about falling away from the faith, if it was impossible for a true believer to do so.

[blitzkreig]

One must "endure" to enter the "Kingdom" which is ... the end... but today we are Members of the Body of Christ. To confuse the two is to confuse yourself to a great deal of Scripture ...

[blitzkreig]

One most interesting challenge today is to not add works to Salvation ... as to do so "undoes" Grace ... which can not by any measure be a good thing. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Question: Without Grace how does one "acquire" Salvation? Righteousness? Hope?

That can't be a "good thing" ...

But so many want to "at least contribute somehow".... What a challenge, to rest in the Lord's Faith and finished work alone ...

.

[Danimus]

But we are told to do something throughout Scripture. Why was Abraham told to sacrifice Issac? And what was God's response to Abrahams obedience? Why was Abraham accredited as righteous by God? His faith...which Timothy has already established as a decision we make. So if we decide to have that faith why can't we decide not to have it later? What seperates us from the Angels? Why are we considered greater than the Angels? They do what they were created to do while we are not confined to the same rules as they are. Why was God angry with Adam and Eve if He created them to do what they did? And why did the Israelites wander the desert for 40 years?
Now I realize these arguements do not pertain to salvation...which I agree is a work accomplished in full by God. But we do have to accept it...don't we? Why preach the Gospel to all nations baptising in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit? Why would God send His Spirit to council and guide us when there is no risk of falling away? What would be the point?
Whats more, please tell me that you do not expect me to believe that God could have possibly created one of my children for damnation? Granted the way they act sometimes I believe that very thing. :D:

This is my first debate so be gentle with me. :):

God bless

[blitzkreig]

This is my first debate so be gentle with me. :):

God bless This is not a "debate" ... we are told to do "something". That "something" is "nothing". Perhaps the hardest thing of all to do.

James raised the bar. He said Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Ouch!

We are to rest in the finished work of the Lord Jesus.

.

[Danimus]

John 15:5-8
Doesn't sound like nothing.

And goodness, you are gonna debate whether this is a debate? One side is making their point while another side offeres a different point of view...or...a debate. :):

[kenneth]

One must "endure" to enter the "Kingdom" which is ... the end... but today we are Members of the Body of Christ. And if a Member of the Body of Christ does not endure to the end, looks back or worse yet, disowns Christ, does he enter the Kingdom?

[blitzkreig]

And if a Member of the Body of Christ does not endure to the end, looks back or worse yet, disowns Christ, does he enter the Kingdom? The Kingdom on Earth is a promise to Israel. The promise to the Body of Christ is to be seated in Jesus next to the Father in Heaven.

One needs to understand the difference between the Kingdom (long promised in prophecy) and the Body of Christ (a Mystery Hid in God since the foundation of the world) positionally in Heaven ...

[Timothy]

But we are told to do something throughout Scripture. Why was Abraham told to sacrifice Issac? And what was God's response to Abrahams obedience? Why was Abraham accredited as righteous by God? His faith...

Yes, you and I have the benefit of having the completed revelation of God, and we know that in every age and dispensation that man was saved soley on the response of faith (i.e. Hebrews 11). But it needs to be noted that the command to which faith responds has varied throughout scripture. Someone may have been told to do ABC, and someone else XYZ. Their faith based response is what saved them (not the work itself). In our present dispensation of grace, the Apostle Paul instructs that we are told only to believe in order to be saved (no work is involved under grace).

...Why would God send His Spirit to council and guide us when there is no risk of falling away? What would be the point?..

Each and every time we sin (daily), we are living from the flesh, which is an abomination to God. When we live from the flesh or what Paul calls the "old man," it is contrary to what our position is in Christ. But our position position via the spirit remains, and we can put on the "new man" and stand as who we are in Christ.

If someone could be unsaved, it would be absolutely pointless that the Holy Spirit seals us in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

When a saved person sins, they grieve the Holy Spirit, but they remained sealed.

Ephesian 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Besides being sealed, our Godly created position is as adopted full-grown sons of God. Adoption in Roman times was an unrevokable covenant.

[Indiana Janz]

He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.

Then what on earth would lead him to think he was saved, feel saved, act like he was saved, convince others that he was saved? The term "saved" in itself is usually used by those who believe and have had a conversion experience.

[Timothy]

Then what on earth would lead him to think he was saved, feel saved, act like he was saved, convince others that he was saved? The term "saved" in itself is usually used by those who believe and have had a conversion experience.

I.J. - I didn't obviously write the article. At first glance, I read that sentence the same way as you just did, but after re-reading it, I saw that Stam is speaking "abstractly" from the OSnAS viewpoint in that sentence, not matter of fact. He is building on the prior argument. That sentence is not worded the best, I agree....

[holyspiritvesse]

Then what on earth would lead him to think he was saved, feel saved, act like he was saved, convince others that he was saved? The term "saved" in itself is usually used by those who believe and have had a conversion experience.


I TOTALLY DISAGREE!

I THOUGHT I was saved because I said the prayer and I 'believed' in Jesus.

My New Age SIL 'Says' she is saved because they use their own terminology.

'Saved' is a cliche that proves nothing.

[Hootmon]

I THOUGHT I was saved because I said the prayer and I 'believed' in Jesus. Unfortunately, that isnt quite enough, at least not as you just stated it...

[holyspiritvesse]

HOOT, exactly!

[Indiana Janz]

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!

I THOUGHT I was saved because I said the prayer and I 'believed' in Jesus.

My New Age SIL 'Says' she is saved because they use their own terminology.

'Saved' is a cliche that proves nothing.

I said usually used by those who've had a conversion experience. The article didn't elaborate on why the man thought he was saved, just that he thought he was, felt he was, acted like was and was thought to be.

[pilgrimian]

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!

I THOUGHT I was saved because I said the prayer and I 'believed' in Jesus.

My New Age SIL 'Says' she is saved because they use their own terminology.

'Saved' is a cliche that proves nothing.

Very true. "Saved" must be used IN CONTEXT with what Messiah did for us. I know some folks who say they're saved...but actually have a Buddhist belief system and regard Yeshua as only a prophet. For this group I would say that they're simply not saved in the first place.