RC church turns away lesbian couple

[ShoutToTheLord]

Church turns away lesbian couple

Warren woman says priest called them 'sinners'
PUBLISHED: March 29, 2005

By Tom Watts
Macomb Daily Staff Writer

A lesbian couple turned away from St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church in St. Clair Shores and later accepted as members at St. Basil the Great Catholic Church in Eastpointe say the experience has left them sour.
"We chose this church because the sign said, 'All are welcomed,'" said Mary Horon of Warren. "We figured St. Joan of Arc was a church where we could grow."

Instead, Horon and civil partner Cheryl Mathers were denied membership into St. Joan of Arc last month because they are "openly gay."

"It's blatantly about us being gay and the church condemning homosexuality," Horon said Monday. "If this Catholic church is now saying gay and lesbians aren't welcomed inside it'll be interesting to see if they continue to head in that direction."

Horon said the Rev. Michael Bugarin of St. Joan of Arc told her two weeks after they applied for membership that the church would not accept the lesbian couple as members. St. Joan of Arc was closed Monday and Bugarin was unavailable for comment.

"The priest said he couldn't have any gay people in his church," Horon recalled. "He called us, 'sinners.'"

Ned McGrath, director of Communication for the Archdiocese of Detroit, issued a statement in response to the couple's claim of discrimination.

"The Catholic Church is committed to the support of -- and a belief in -- the marriage of one man and one woman, and does not recognize so-called same-sex unions, whether civil or otherwise, period," McGrath said. "And, to register in a parish as 'gay couple,' provides, in fact, a recognition the Church cannot concede. At the same time, any individual who embraces the teachings of the Catholic Church is welcomed in the parishes of the Detroit Archdiocese."

The Triangle Foundation, a Detroit-based gay and lesbian advocacy group, issued a statement denouncing the church's decision. McGrath called the statement "misinformed and misguided."

"More importantly, it ignores the Church's rejection of unjust discrimination against homosexuals, or to be accepted as individuals with respect, compassion and sensitivity," McGrath wrote.

Mathers and Horon, who have a civil marriage from a service performed in Vermont in 2000, said they registered as a couple.

"But we're all the same people," Mathers, 46, said. "There's no difference. It's just blatant discrimination. They teach hate at that church."

Mathers said the couple talked about filing a discrimination lawsuit.

"Protesting the church is on the agenda," Horon said. "You can't have a church that says, 'All Are Welcomed,' but then reject us because of what we do in our own home. That's not for man to decide, it's for God to judge."

St. Joan of Arc parishioner Linda O'Donnell said the church is "a very open and loving parish."

"Is the conservative Catholic Church the place where you want to express your lifestyle in the first place?" O'Donnell asked. "There are a lot of other religions out there. It seems like they're doing it for publicity."

But Mathers disagreed, saying they want to raise a family in Warren and bring up their child in a Catholic church.

"Who would want this kind of publicity for themselves?" Mathers asked. "This is about us wanting to join a church where all people are welcome. Obviously, this wasn't true. We called 20 other churches and they all said they would welcome us. St. Basil told us they did not have a problem with us being gay."
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I think the message that the RC church was trying to make was that they are against same sex marriages and since this "couple" insisted on registering as a couple they could not allow them in. I agree for once with the RC on this issue. NOW if they had agree to join the church as singles and accepted the teaching of the church and worked on this area of sin in their lives then the church would have been wrong in saying no to membership.

[CarolAnn]

Good. They are living a life of sin. Trying to flaunt it in a church.

[Kyrie Eleison]

And so it begins. :pout :tsk

[angelarwyn]

I'm not sure what I think about this. I can see why the rejected them membership, because they are openly homosexuals. But homosexuality is just another sin and we all sin, whether we lay with the same sex, commit adultery, curse, disrepect our mother or father, etc...

[Patty T]

A refresher of the book of Jude may shed some light on this. It's a rather short read, but full of wisdom and guidance. Notice to whom it is written - those who are the "called".



Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Jud 1:2 May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.

Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Jud 1:10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Jud 1:12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;

Jud 1:13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

Jud 1:14 {It was} also about these men {that} Enoch, {in} the seventh {generation} from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

Jud 1:15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Jud 1:16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their {own} lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of {gaining an} advantage.

Jud 1:17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Jud 1:18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

Jud 1:19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Jud 1:22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

Jud 1:23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Jud 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, {be} glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

[greatestislove]

angelarwyn,

Most homosexuals that call themselves "Christian" do not see the act itself as a sin against God. That is where the chasm lies.

[Hootmon]

I'm not sure what I think about this. I can see why the rejected them membership, because they are openly homosexuals. But homosexuality is just another sin and we all sin, whether we lay with the same sex, commit adultery, curse, disrepect our mother or father, etc...Its a matter of Repentence...

[Kyrie Eleison]

I'm not sure what I think about this. I can see why the rejected them membership, because they are openly homosexuals. But homosexuality is just another sin and we all sin, whether we lay with the same sex, commit adultery, curse, disrepect our mother or father, etc...


Yes, but I feel the same way, that all sin is bad, and I also see the ramifications, as you do.

We need to consider the possible effects on Christianity if a person lives in open rebellion and does not want to turn from sin. Not only that, but these homosexual activists want to call sin a good & healthy lifestyle, so that person can corrupt a church. They want to corrupt the church and infiltrate it from within.

There is an agenda here. These are activists who hope to call negative attention on churches and lawsuits will follow to try to force churches to accpet sin as normal, or else face losing their tax exempt status.

[col311]

angelarwyn,

Most homosexuals that call themselves "Christian" do not see the act itself as a sin against God. That is where the chasm lies.


Exactly. I know a lot of christians who are homosexuals. including a pastor. And they swear that they are not living thier life in sin.

[Kyrie Eleison]

Exactly. I know a lot of christians who are homosexuals. including a pastor. And they swear that they are not living thier life in sin.


Yes, and I would be willing to bet that many Christians struggle with what to say to these fellow Christians who call homosexuality an alternative lifestyle. Perhaps some would not even bring up the issue here on this board? I know I struggle to find the right words when talking to any homosexual, let alone when speaking to a practicing homosexual who is a self-avowed Christian. It's hard to know what to say that will be loving and helpful, yet won't compromise the truth. :twitch

[Charity4Ever]

It seemed like the article said the church had a problem with them registering as a "gay couple." In which case, it was just their "marriage" that was the issue, not the fact that they're sinners.

[fefeh]

I don't know if these particular people did it just to be rejected so they can cry foul, but it is being planned all over.

Infiltrate the churches from within...

It's getting harder and harder to find good churches, because of their caving in to pressure.

[Jael]

Yes, but I feel the same way, that all sin is bad, and I also see the ramifications, as you do.

We need to consider the possible effects on Christianity if a person lives in open rebellion and does not want to turn from sin. Not only that, but these homosexual activists want to call sin a good & healthy lifestyle, so that person can corrupt a church. They want to corrupt the church and infiltrate it from within.

There is an agenda here. These are activists who hope to call negative attention on churches and lawsuits will follow to try to force churches to accpet sin as normal, or else face losing their tax exempt status.

Exactly...this couple would not have been able to join my church either. We practice church discipline as laid out in the Bible, and we would not fellowship someone in, just to have to disfellowship them soon afterward. Instead, they would be counseled and once they expressed repentance and a desire to turn from that sin...THEN they would be welcomed into fellowship. It would be no different for an unmarried heterosexual couple who were living together...

[Jesus died4u]

these people are so selfish- all the kids would ask if they are gay? is that normal? can we ask them stuff? etc... not good example for kids,let alone in a church!

[ILJ]

I agree with ShoutToTheLord in that this is one instance where I back the CC's decision 100%. Go, bishops, go! :):

[cenimo]

Catholic doctrine says that Holy Matrimony is one of seven sacraments, and the defintion of Holy Matrimony is a Holy union between a man and a woman.

The acceptance of an openly gay unrepentent (as Hootman implied) couple violates that.

[SuzyJ27]

I'm not sure what I think about this. I can see why the rejected them membership, because they are openly homosexuals. But homosexuality is just another sin and we all sin, whether we lay with the same sex, commit adultery, curse, disrepect our mother or father, etc...

My exact thoughts.
Also how are people going to hear the Word if they are refused it?Jesus preached to all and had compassion for all no matter what sin they committed.Those type of sinners are the ones who should be in church.

[fefeh]

Jesus also said "Go and sin no more"

You actually think He would accept someone who is completely unrepentant? I don't.

[guitarrman45]

It was Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve. Everyone knows that in God's eyes, it is wrong. There is enough scripture to prove this. I realize that we are all sinners. But if Lesbians should be able to come to Christ's church as a practicing homosexual couple. Then drinkers will want to come to church drunk. Thieves will steal from the offering. Insted of testimony, you will hear lies. Sermons will no longer contain scripture. There will be no order. No wisdom. No truth. No church!

Gal. 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

[upanddown]

I realize that we are all sinners. But.....

The use of "but" following a statement, just takes away what you previously stated. Ex: "I know I am wrong, but in this instance...." Obviously I would be stating that I was wrong, but thought that I was actually right in this instance, and making it seem that I am above or better than the situation that afflicts others.

I see nothing that says for us not to interact with and to shun non-christians. I do see passages that specifically say how to deal, within the church, with Christians that are unrepentant.

I would love to invite thiefs, gays, alcoholics, unmarried heterosexuals living together, ect... to come to church with me. If they give their life to Christ, rejoice because their names where just written into the Lambs Book of Life. If from this point they are unrepentant they should be dealt with according to what the Bible has as guidlines. This goes without saying that I would expect some form of counseling letting the people know of what the Bible has to say about their lifestyle and what they should expect if they continue to live unrepentantly.

Spelled out, this shouldnt be something that the minister or church leaders should fear. It may be more work on their part, but they are workig for God who seeks to know everyone personally. If there is reprisal from any person/group/sorce, have scripture written out in big bold letters, so that you can say, "its not my rules for the church, but Gods. If you have a problem, please consult the Bible."

[Jael]

No one turned this couple away at the door...no one is saying they should not be welcome to come and hear the word of God...according to the article, they were denied MEMBERSHIP:

Instead, Horon and civil partner Cheryl Mathers were denied membership into St. Joan of Arc last month because they are "openly gay."

Anyone can visit a church...the word of God is free and available to all. And the saints should treat everyone who comes through the door with love and compassion. But MEMBERSHIP is for believers. This couple calls themselves believers, yet they are practicing open rebellion against God's word and have no intention of repenting. According to 1Cr 5:11, the church was absolutely correct not to extend membership.

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This couple is openly practicing fornication, yet they want to be called "brothers" (sisters in this case).

Kudos to this church for obeying what the Bible says, even at the cost of being politically incorrect. Believers who are openly living a sinful lifestyle should NOT be accepted into the local assembly...can they come and receive Biblical counseling? Yes. Can they come and listen to solid Biblical teaching? Yes. Should they be treated with love? Yes. Should they be welcomed as members of the church? No. Not until they come to repentance.

[guitarrman45]

and making it seem that I am above or better than the situation that afflicts others.

___________________________________________________________________
These are your words. Not mine. Perhaps I should have worded this differently. "You should not flaunt your sin in church". Thank you for the lesson in American English.

[Bethshaya]

I'm not sure what I think about this. I can see why the rejected them membership, because they are openly homosexuals. But homosexuality is just another sin and we all sin, whether we lay with the same sex, commit adultery, curse, disrepect our mother or father, etc...


Under the Roman Catholic Church, even a divorcee is not allowed to receive communion. So they are not being singled out. If you divorce for any other reason than adultery, then you are committing a sin. In the case of adultery, you would receive an annulment and again be allowed into the church.

The other sins are temporal, in that you ask for forgiveness and turn from doing it again. However, in homosexuality, fornication and adultery, they are continual states of sin. When you leave church, you go home to your lover and are sinning again as soon as you step into the doorway. Until the person turns from wanting to keep committing that sin and change their ways, then they are not able to participate in church.

[upanddown]

Perhaps I should have worded this differently. "You should not flaunt your sin in church". Thank you for the lesson in American English.

Yes they are my words. You can say the same thing more than one way though. To me, I took it as there was a possibility that you may have thought that you were above them or better than them.

This is a real problem with Christians, thinking that they are better than those awful awful sinners (watch the movie Saved, it is a great example of how some "Christians" act). Everybody has moments of this, including myself, at some point in life and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out if it is the case or appears to be case (I would rather say something and be proven wrong than say nothing at all and letting it pass. Besides, in a open forum like this were TONS of people lurk, it could be reaching people outside of you and me).

There are many that think that they are better than someone else for a number of reason. You may not be that way and I sincerly hope not. From your words I thought that it could have been a possibility.

I promise, there was no venom or harm pointed to you in my posts that quoted you.

A loving brother in Christ,
Jon

[guitarrman45]

There are many that think that they are better than someone else for a number of reason. You may not be that way and I sincerly hope not. From your words I thought that it could have been a possibility.

I promise, there was no venom or harm pointed to you in my posts that quoted you.

A loving brother in Christ,
Jon
[Reply With Quote]

Now that I have reread my post, I can see how it could look that way. I dont see myself any better than anyone else. And I still say that nobody should flaunt their sin in church.
________________________________________________________________
(I would rather say something and be proven wrong than say nothing at all and letting it pass. Besides, in a open forum like this were TONS of people lurk, it could be reaching people outside of you and me).
_________________________________________________________________

This is true. And there are times when we all need to humble ourselves and allow admonishment.

[antitox]

This is where I give the RCC a pat on the back. It's a rare moment in these days for anyone to stand up for what's right, especially in agreement with scripture, when society is getting hateful toward Christian beliefs. I don't see very many churches today taking a tough stand for God over the homo invasion. Personally I hate political correctness, media manipulation, and ACLU dogma with a pit bull's passion.

[Redmow]

If a church turned away all sinners, there'd only be room for perfect people.

[TonyLee]

If a church turned away all sinners, there'd only be room for perfect people.

Did you read this post?

No one turned this couple away at the door...no one is saying they should not be welcome to come and hear the word of God...according to the article, they were denied MEMBERSHIP:



Anyone can visit a church...the word of God is free and available to all. And the saints should treat everyone who comes through the door with love and compassion. But MEMBERSHIP is for believers. This couple calls themselves believers, yet they are practicing open rebellion against God's word and have no intention of repenting. According to 1Cr 5:11, the church was absolutely correct not to extend membership.

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This couple is openly practicing fornication, yet they want to be called "brothers" (sisters in this case).

Kudos to this church for obeying what the Bible says, even at the cost of being politically incorrect. Believers who are openly living a sinful lifestyle should NOT be accepted into the local assembly...can they come and receive Biblical counseling? Yes. Can they come and listen to solid Biblical teaching? Yes. Should they be treated with love? Yes. Should they be welcomed as members of the church? No. Not until they come to repentance.