Baptism

[ipjones6000]

I posted this elsewhere, but did I get it right? I'm interested in other people's ideas.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Compare the scriptures with scriptures. Sure, in many places the Bible does say things that on the surface appear to speak of baptism and works, but everything must agree. Romans 10:9-13 lays out how to be saved. It is a very narrow window; it says all you have to do is (basically) accept Jesus' sacrifice to be saved. What Jesus says sound a lot like a doctrine of works and baptism, but then some of his statements seem inconsistant with that idea, not to mention everything after the gospels to Revelation would be wrong.

The Bible says in many places all that is necessary for salvation is to accept Jesus. So if you must be baptised (works), doesn't that invalidate acceptance? My understanding is that by truely accepting Jesus, one becomes saved and baptism is a confirmation of that, and being brought into the body of Christ. I don't think that there is a distinction between baptism of the HS and water. The Holy Spirit is present in both, and from my understanding, the effect is the same.

Now don't take this as gospel. I'm just putting out my best ideas. Feel free to correct me or put out your opinions.

[ipjones6000]

Anybody have any ideas?

[Timothy]

If I understand your questions correctly, the answer is found by recognizing God's progressive relvelation and taking a dispensational approach to scripture. God completed his revelation with the apostle Paul, and with Paul's gospel we know that salvation is solely by grace through faith and nothing else. At one time, baptism was required for salvation (i.e. as a response to faith), but now it is not.

There most certainly is a distinction between water baptism and spirit baptism. Often unrecognized, there are multiple different types of baptism mentioned in scripture, only one of which has anything to do with water.

Hope this helps...

[Bible]

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."

(Ephesians 4:5)

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..."

(Mark 16:16)

"...baptism doth also now save us..."

(1 Peter 3:21)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized
into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into
death: that like as Christ was raised up from the
dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also
should walk in newness of life. For if we have been
planted together in the likeness of his death, we
shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection..."

(Romans 6:3-5)

"Buried with him in baptism..."

(Colossians 2:12)

"...by works a man is justified, and not by faith
only . . .

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so
faith without works is dead also."

(James 2:24,26)

[ipjones6000]

Uh, Bible. I think you are ignoring a lot of other verses as well as the context. Care to justify your views?

[Timothy]

Bible: Unfortunately, you have fallen into the easy trap where you are "reading" (pouring) water into any verse where you see the word baptism (which means identified, to dip, immerse, to place into, etc.). As I briefly mentioned in my post, "often unrecognized, there are multiple different types of baptism mentioned in scripture, only one of which has anything to do with water." There are many different types of baptism mentioned in scripture, and water is only one type.

In passages such as Ephesians 4:5, Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:12, I Peter 3:21, you have lost and changed the entire meaning of the verse by thinking those verses concern water baptism.

Just one quick example, Christ surely is not talking about water baptism in this passge:

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

[Hootmon]

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!What a fascinating verse. I did a Comparisn and the results are quite interesting.... Luk 12:50

(ALT) "But I have a baptism to be baptized [with], and how distressed I am until it is completed!

(ASV) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

(CEV) I am going to be put to a hard test. And I will have to suffer a lot of pain until it is over.

(GNB) I have a baptism to receive, and how distressed I am until it is over!

(GW) I have a baptism to go through, and I will suffer until it is over.

(ISV) I have a baptism to be baptized with, and what stress I am under until it is completed!

(KJV) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

(KJV-1611) But I haue a baptisme to be baptized with, and how am I straitned till it be accomplished?

(LITV) But I have a baptism to be immersed in, and how am I pressed until it is done!

(MKJV) But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am pressed down until it is accomplished!

(MSG) I've come to change everything, turn everything rightside up--how I long for it to be finished!

(NASB) "But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

(YLT) but I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I pressed till it may be completed! Does this mean that the Crucifixion is the culmination of a 'type' of Baptism? It would seem to be the case...

{Edit: After thinking about it some more, it would seem to be THE 'type' of Baptism...}

[Timothy]

At least three time Christ refers to his forthcoming death on the cross as a baptism, and this baptism has absolutely nothing to do with water.

Matthew 20:22-23 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mark 10:39-40 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

This baptism is referred as the "death baptism," or baptism by his death. With his death on the cross, we are identified (placed into) in his death, with him. This is exactly what Romans 6 is about, and when water is inserted in Romans 6, the entire context is lost. With that in mind, Romans should read something like this:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized [i.e. by the Holy Spirit] into Jesus Christ [i.e. the body of Christ] were baptized [i.e. placed or identified] into his death [i.e. we and our sin died with him on the cross]?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him [i.e. our sin was placed or identified on him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

[Hootmon]

This baptism is referred as the "death baptism," or baptism by his death. With his death on the cross, we are identified (placed into) in his death, with him. This is exactly what Romans 6 is about, and when water is inserted in Romans 6, the entire context is lost. With that in mind, Romans should read something like this:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized [i.e. by the Holy Spirit] into Jesus Christ [i.e. the body of Christ] were baptized [i.e. placed or identified] into his death [i.e. we and our sin died with him on the cross]?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him [i.e. our sin was placed or identified on him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.:nod :thumb

[Selah]

From another one of my posts:

There are 3 different Greek terms used when referring to the Holy Spirit: para, en, and epi. One means that the Holy Spirit is "beside" or "alongside" you, which is used when referring to the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin to non-believers. The second means that the Holy Spirit is literally in you, when someone becomes a believer. The last is when the Spirit comes "upon" you--an empowering to abide in Christ and serve Him.

Calvary Chapel distinctives can explain it way better than I can, so please check out this link. It doesn't take very long to read:
http://www.calvarychapel.com/redbarn/ccd3.htm

So the Holy Spirit lives in you. You are saved if He is. But if you are not empowered by Him and walk in the Spirit, then the actions we do are simply in our flesh.

I hope you will read about this; it's very interesting.

Examples of each:

Beside:
8And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16)

Indwelling:
21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20)

Filling:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The apostles received the Holy Spirit after Jesus was glorified and returned to them in His glorified body (John 20), and then told them to wait for the Spirit:

4And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 6Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1)

which is when they were filled in Acts 2. :):

[from thread: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=2373634#post2373634


:):

I fully believe in a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit--so did many of our former Christian teachers--and I believe that lack of belief in it, while that obviously does not mean someone is not saved (since you can be saved, but not experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit), has caused a serious weakness in today's church. We are attempting to operate within our own power, and refusing to look at this in the Greek has harmed the very backbone of the Church. :(:

[Bible]

"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard
whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto
them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they
said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John
verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,
saying unto the people, that they should believe on
him which should come after him, that is, on Christ
Jesus.When they heard this, they were baptized in
the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid
his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;
and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

(Acts 19:2-6)

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Ghost..."

(Matthew 28:19)

[jegs2]

Okay, so now let's look at that in its entire context, and in a language currently spoken:

Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John's baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

8Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.

11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demonpossessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

17When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[d] 20In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.

21After all this had happened, Paul decided to go to Jerusalem, passing through Macedonia and Achaia. “After I have been there,” he said, “I must visit Rome also.” 22He sent two of his helpers, Timothy and Erastus, to Macedonia, while he stayed in the province of Asia a little longer.
(NIV)

Looks like when taken in context, baptisim by itself is shown to be useless, while baptism with faith in Christ is shown to be an act of obedience. Nowhere does the passage suggest that the absence of water baptism denies Salvation, although baptism, accompanied by belief in Jesus, brings on the Holy Spirit in this case. That being said, there are many other places wherein Salvation takes place in the absence of water Baptism.

[Jacob]

I posted this elsewhere, but did I get it right? I'm interested in other people's ideas.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Compare the scriptures with scriptures. Sure, in many places the Bible does say things that on the surface appear to speak of baptism and works, but everything must agree. Romans 10:9-13 lays out how to be saved. It is a very narrow window; it says all you have to do is (basically) accept Jesus' sacrifice to be saved. What Jesus says sound a lot like a doctrine of works and baptism, but then some of his statements seem inconsistant with that idea, not to mention everything after the gospels to Revelation would be wrong.

The Bible says in many places all that is necessary for salvation is to accept Jesus. So if you must be baptised (works), doesn't that invalidate acceptance? My understanding is that by truely accepting Jesus, one becomes saved and baptism is a confirmation of that, and being brought into the body of Christ. I don't think that there is a distinction between baptism of the HS and water. The Holy Spirit is present in both, and from my understanding, the effect is the same.

Now don't take this as gospel. I'm just putting out my best ideas. Feel free to correct me or put out your opinions.

Romans 5:1
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The verb "having been justified" signifies that they received justification at some point in the past. It also signifies that they are not continuing to work towards it.

They were justified by faith. No other condition is stated.

As a result of justification by faith, they are at peace with God.

There is no record that the apostles were ever baptized. Yet Jesus declared them cleansed of their sin (John 13:10).

In Luke 18:11-14, Jesus said that the tax collector received justification based upon his repentant heart, not because he was baptized.

The thief on the cross (Luke's Gospel) was never baptized, yet Jesus promised him that he would be in paradise.

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius...for Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel."

Paul showed that salvation is not obtained through baptism, otherwise why would he thank God that he did not baptize anyone if he was sent out to preach the gospel?

[Bible]

"...what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

(Acts 8:36)

"...be baptized every one of you in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

(Acts 2:38)

[Pendragon]

I posted this elsewhere, but did I get it right? I'm interested in other people's ideas.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Compare the scriptures with scriptures. Sure, in many places the Bible does say things that on the surface appear to speak of baptism and works, but everything must agree. Romans 10:9-13 lays out how to be saved. It is a very narrow window; it says all you have to do is (basically) accept Jesus' sacrifice to be saved. What Jesus says sound a lot like a doctrine of works and baptism, but then some of his statements seem inconsistant with that idea, not to mention everything after the gospels to Revelation would be wrong.

The Bible says in many places all that is necessary for salvation is to accept Jesus. So if you must be baptised (works), doesn't that invalidate acceptance? My understanding is that by truely accepting Jesus, one becomes saved and baptism is a confirmation of that, and being brought into the body of Christ. I don't think that there is a distinction between baptism of the HS and water. The Holy Spirit is present in both, and from my understanding, the effect is the same.

Now don't take this as gospel. I'm just putting out my best ideas. Feel free to correct me or put out your opinions.



Jam 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your* works, and I will show you my faith by my* works.
Jam 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
Jam 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?*
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Jam 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."* And he was called the friend of God.
Jam 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Imputed]

Pendragon.
JAMES, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greetings.
Peter also write's to a royal nation of priests, and the doctrine is Christ's kingdom instructions to this nation, and has to do with what Christ taught in is earthly ministery about life in the kingdom, and Peter tells them that Christs earthly walk is their example, and that they should follow his steps. 1Peter 2:21.

The RISEN CHRIST is were we (were not a nation) the NEW CREATURE gets its doctrine! and thats Pauls letter's! He tells us, He's the pattern (1Tim 1:16) for those that should believe hereafter, seeing Israel stumbled and the kingdom was postponed till this dispensation of GRACE! (Ehpesians 3) runs its coarse, and is not to found in the prophetic writings, if you claim all the bible as doctrine for yourself, your in for some serious denial of some things that do contradict if not divided.

JAMES is the Wrong Mail for this age of grace.
We can learn from all scripture, BUT NOW! like Paul likes to say, something has changed from the BUT THEN,
Like it would be wrong to start building an Ark, its wrong to get your doctrine from the prophetic program that as been set aside till this Grace dispensation has run it coarse,
Then its back to the kingdom doctrine that Jesus said (pre cross) will be preached to all nations and the end shall come.




Grace and peace, Imputed.

[ipjones6000]

James 2:18-26 "But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Verse 18 is saying that a believer's faith will be known by his works. James 2 is talking about a believer's faith being proven to others by deeds; not salvation by deeds. James addressed his book to Jewish Christians who were in danger of only professing faith in Jesus, not actually believing in him. James is distinguishing between insincere faith and real faith, saying that those will real faith will reflect that in their deeds and actions. This is where the idea of Christian behavior comes from; doing Christlike things as a result of our salvation, not a requirement for salvation. Verse 18, "I will show you my faith by what I do," indicates that faith is verified (justified) by actions; not faith is obtained by deeds.
In verse 26, the body without spirit analogy is used because the body would be an empty shell, not a person. An claim about salvation is nothing unless the person means it, and their actions should be an indicator of their salvation.

People don't necessarily turn around and do good deeds once they are saved, but at the very least, they will feel the desire to do so and be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit, wheras they were oblivious before.

I leave you with these verses:
“Therefore, by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:20
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” Ephesians 2:8
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21
“When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.” Colossians 2:13-14
“Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 10:1-4
“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” Romans 10:9

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” Ephesians 2:8

[Pendragon]

By grace I am saved through Grace I desire to preform those works to glorify G-d

[Bible]

...JAMES is the Wrong Mail for this age of grace... "...he giveth more grace..."

(James 4:6)

"They profess that they know God; but in works they
deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and
unto every good work reprobate."

(Titus 1:16)

"...work out your own salvation with fear and
trembling."

(Philippians 2:12)

...its wrong to get your doctrine from the prophetic program... "...the revelation of the mystery, which was kept
secret since the world began, But now is made
manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets..."

(Romans 16:25-26)

"...witnessing both to small and great, saying none
other things than those which the prophets and
Moses did say should come: That Christ should
suffer, and that he should be the first that should
rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the
people, and to the Gentiles."

(Acts 26:22-23)

...Then its back to the kingdom doctrine... "I have gone preaching the kingdom of God..."

(Acts 20:25; 28:31)

"That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called
you unto his kingdom..."

(1 Thessalonians 2:12)

"...that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of
God, for which ye also suffer..."

(2 Thessalonians 1:5)

"...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of
God..."

(1 Corinthians 15:50)

...Grace and peace... "Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. . .

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you . . ."

(1 Peter 1:2,10)

[Hootmon]

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=194179