The benefits of being lukewarm?

[PlentyGroovy]

A lot of church going folks truly believe that all religions lead to God, that homosexuality is no big whoop, abortion is a choice that women should have, have no clue about end times, rapture and prophecy...but they do look to Jesus as their savior. They will get into heaven, right? I'm just chewing on the thought that they aren't going through the prunings and tribulations that more committed Christians might go through. I'm thinking life for lukewarms is easier somehow. Somebody prove me wrong...please! :):

[ace]

Actually I thought it was just the opposite! Seriously had that thought today. :):

I'd have to wonder though, if any professing Christian believes all religions lead to God is really just lukewarm. I mean, that fits more the description of an unbeliever I'd of thought.

[GAB]

The 'benefits' of being lukewarm are cancelled out by the paucity of rewards at the Bema Seat.

[Timothy]

The 'benefits' of being lukewarm are cancelled out by the paucity of rewards at the Bema Seat.

Bingo.

I Corinthians 3:13-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[bopeep1909]

Is lukewarm another word for unbeliever or just having a said faith?

[PlentyGroovy]

So since we are not saved by works, but by faith alone, it comes down to rewards. When we study the word and try to live by His commands, when we pray for others, by spreading the gospel, etc. by our fruits we build up treasures in heaven. I know this but sometimes the things he asks us to do are so hard.

Maybe lukewarm is not the correct term, I was thinking about those that accept Jesus as their savior but still think things like abortion, premarital sex, homosexual sin and the like are ok. Or the believers that think all religions lead to God.

[lookup]

You might want to take another look at the Laodecian church (Rev 3) to see how Jesus views being lukewarm.

[greatestislove]

Maybe lukewarm is not the correct term, I was thinking about those that accept Jesus as their savior but still think things like abortion, premarital sex, homosexual sin and the like are ok. Or the believers that think all religions lead to God.



You are right in correcting the terminology. Being "lukewarm" is more a matter of faith, rather than one's interpretation of whether something is a sin.

The two may cross paths, but "lukewarm" generally refers to one's faith. At least that is my understanding of it. :noidea

[LDinthewoods]

So since we are not saved by works, but by faith alone, it comes down to rewards. When we study the word and try to live by His commands, when we pray for others, by spreading the gospel, etc. by our fruits we build up treasures in heaven. I know this but sometimes the things he asks us to do are so hard.

Maybe lukewarm is not the correct term, I was thinking about those that accept Jesus as their savior but still think things like abortion, premarital sex, homosexual sin and the like are ok. Or the believers that think all religions lead to God. Being saved does not happen by works...but being saved means you love JESUS and will seek His word in order to please Him. This does take time to learn & test the Word. But, as a mature Christian learns more about CHRIST, how can they truly love their Savior but not hate the things that He hates? Most Christians know that the LORD expects us to love our brother; love our enemy; love the poor & the sick….because that is what He did. The LORD hates murder, premarital sex, homosexuality, etc. – why would a Christian embrace these things?

[PlentyGroovy]

Maybe because they go to a Methodist church which is tolerant towards these sins?

[backslider]

God is building a kingdom that is going to start here on this earth and expand out into the universe for all of eternity.

If we are faithful in our service to our Lord Jesus then he will give us positions of authority in that kingdom.

Rev. 2
[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
[28] And I will give him the morning star.

I heard a preacher once describe it as being like all of our cups will be full, but our cups won't be the same size. Just like a baby can be happy banging pots and pans, but that same baby would be unable to take over the oval office and rule the US as president.

We will all be happy and full of joy, but our capacity to serve God for all of eternity depends on our faithfulness now.

.

[Mailman Dan]

Dr. Kennedy said that the vast majority of church goers today are NOT christians. They've gone through a religious formality, accepted Jesus, but never repent from their sin, and many "confessing" believers don't believe the bible is really Gods word. (63% believe it's not all truth)

I agree with what he said. The majority of confessing church goers are not saved. I can base it on what I hear other confessing believers say, such as all religions go to God, or abortion isn't murder, or there is no absolute truth...ect..

There are, false converts, as scripture refers to time and again.
http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch2.shtml


Dan~~~>teaching that audio lesson next Thursday

[frisian1970]

Dr. Kennedy said that the vast majority of church goers today are NOT christians. They've gone through a religious formality, accepted Jesus, but never repent from their sin, and many "confessing" believers don't believe the bible is really Gods word. (63% believe it's not all truth)I heard a similiar assertion today on the radio. What they called it were dead works, in that it was mere church attendance or righteousness gatherings or the attempt of such anyway. Today, I must admit, I think I have finally learned something about repentance. Hopefully I will act upon such.

[HeIsEnough]

Dr. Kennedy said that the vast majority of church goers today are NOT christians. They've gone through a religious formality, accepted Jesus, but never repent from their sin, and many "confessing" believers don't believe the bible is really Gods word. (63% believe it's not all truth)

I agree with what he said. The majority of confessing church goers are not saved. I can base it on what I hear other confessing believers say, such as all religions go to God, or abortion isn't murder, or there is no absolute truth...ect..


So, just how many real christians do you think there are, Dan?

[joy4Him2day]

oops
:doh
I thought I was starting a new thread...... :B:

[Mailman Dan]

So, just how many real christians do you think there are, Dan?

Jesus said the day would come when HE would seperate the sheep from the goats. Jesus said not to pull out the tares from the wheat, or you might uproot a wheat.

Matthew 13: 27-30

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

However, scripture itself varfies that false converts do exist in great numbers, and Jesus was very clear on the subject, and stated by their fruit we would know them.

Dan~~~>could only guess at what God knows for sure

[LDinthewoods]

Jesus said the day would come when HE would seperate the sheep from the goats. Jesus said not to pull out the tares from the wheat, or you might uproot a wheat.

Matthew 13: 27-30

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

However, scripture itself varfies that false converts do exist in great numbers, and Jesus was very clear on the subject, and stated by their fruit we would know them.

Dan~~~>could only guess at what God knows for sure
Also, here:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[HeIsEnough]

Jesus said the day would come when HE would seperate the sheep from the goats. Jesus said not to pull out the tares from the wheat, or you might uproot a wheat.

However, scripture itself varfies that false converts do exist in great numbers, and Jesus was very clear on the subject, and stated by their fruit we would know them.

There are many things said in the scriptures. What fruit was Jesus referring to?

You are the one who agreed the 'vast' majority are not saved. I am in a little bewilderment how you know this. Lets see these scriptures your referencing about Christ saying specifically that the 'vast' majority are not saved.


Dan~~~>could only guess at what God knows for sure

Didn't sound like guessing to me, more of a proclamation.

[Mailman Dan]

Didn't sound like guessing to me, more of a proclamation.

You know, I can see a baited question and statement when I see it, just like I saw the last one.

The proclamation is in scripture, and I believe exactly what it says.

Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When the bible uses the word many, it doesn't lie. It directly speaks of false converts who hear the word, but don't follow.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Also prior to that...

13-14

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus was clear, that many would try, and few would find it. It makes no difference if you believe what I say, but you should at least check it against scripture. I wouldn't expect anything less.

You might also try listening to the audio lesson....


Dan~~~>understands the fruit difference between sheep and goats

[HeIsEnough]

You know, I can see a baited question and statement when I see it, just like I saw the last one.

Well, I don't really feel its all that useful to walk around claiming the vast majority of people I meet in churches are unsaved. Who are you? Or Comfort for that matter, to act as if you know how many are saved? I recall Elijah did the same thing. and it wasn't the wisest thing he ever did.


The proclamation is in scripture, and I believe exactly what it says.

So do I. Your characterization is incorrect, in my opinion. I believe people who claim that they know the 'vast' majority 'in the church' are unsaved, will need challenged. And that you would do a better job in backing that statement up.


Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is His will, Dan?
I have no doubt if someone does not know the Lord, He will say I never knew you. Makes sense. And those things described, are not the kind of things it takes to know Him. However its viewed, it still does not lead me to characterize it as you do.


Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Yes, all those who enter through Jesus. The few would be those who find Jesus. Considering the population of this world through the ages, christians are the few. Well, that is except the 'multitude too numerous to count, from every tribe and tongue' They will be the bride of Christ.


Jesus was clear, that many would try, and few would find it. It makes no difference if you believe what I say, but you should at least check it against scripture. I wouldn't expect anything less.

What Jesus did not say, is that eight out of ten you rub elbows with in the church are unsaved. You are reading that into the text. I don't mean to disrespect you in any way Dan, I just don't feel it is the best way to view the situation. It is good to remind all the people of God to test our faith, just as the scriptures tell us too. Some ways to do that, are better than others.

[PlentyGroovy]

I agree with you both, I think that there are many church goers just going through the motions and that it's not up to us to judge who that might be.

Last night the pastor talked about lukewarm. Yay!

He said On a scale of 1-10 are you a 8 or 9, trying to always put the Lord first and follow His commands or are you about a 5, a lukewarm Christian where sometimes you think about the Lord and follow His commands when you feel like it?

I would say I'm a seven, know darn well when I am being disobedient and wishing I could STOP, talking to the Lord all the time, trying to go to Him first with decisions.

He also spoke on trials and tribulations (like any of us have to go through those!! Ha!) How the Lord prunes us so we can bare more fruit, how He cuts off the dead branches because they can take over the whole tree and how we should find joy in the pruning via James 1, chapter 1.

[Mailman Dan]

Who are you? Or Comfort for that matter, to act as if you know how many are saved?

So did you listen to it? Did you notice where, who, and why other preachers of the past made that statement? Did you here what fruit (listed in scripture) was spoke of?

Your characterization is incorrect, in my opinion. I believe people who claim that they know the 'vast' majority 'in the church' are unsaved, will need challenged. And that you would do a better job in backing that statement up.

Its based on scripture, and if you opt to not believe that the church contains both true and false converts, false prophets, and people who deny the majority of their faith, then I would have to say you have to deny alot of scripture and overlook whats happening in the church today.

I have no doubt if someone does not know the Lord, He will say I never knew you. Makes sense. And those things described, are not the kind of things it takes to know Him. However its viewed, it still does not lead me to characterize it as you do.

Of course they didn't know they Lord, but they "confessed" to. They scripture is from "many" that say they did works in Gods name, however, Jesus made it clear that despite their claims while on earth, they didn't know Him. Thats what a false convert is...someone who claims to be something they are not.

Yes, all those who enter through Jesus. The few would be those who find Jesus. Considering the population of this world through the ages, christians are the few. Well, that is except the 'multitude too numerous to count, from every tribe and tongue' They will be the bride of Christ.

Again, look at the difference. I know Christ is the only way, but Jesus clearly warned about those who did NOT follow up on their "conversion."

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

What Jesus did not say, is that eight out of ten you rub elbows with in the church are unsaved. You are reading that into the text. I don't mean to disrespect you in any way Dan, I just don't feel it is the best way to view the situation. It is good to remind all the people of God to test our faith, just as the scriptures tell us too. Some ways to do that, are better than others.

Jesus did warned, and so did Paul, of numerous false converts and prophets within the church. I suggest reading up on Matthew 7 for starters. Scripture warns clearly against falling away, and says to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. God already stated He would sort out the sheep and goats, the wheat and tares, and He will.

Dan~~~>believes false conversion explains why 50% of confessing christians don't believe Satan exist

[frisian1970]

To what extent shall ones conversion be followed up for it to be true? I would say to a true extent, which can be viewed by others manifesting itself in a myriad of manners. Of course God sees through it all, and KNOWS.

[PlentyGroovy]

I was deadzoned in my own post!! :cry

I saw that satan thing on Barna group, pretty surprising!

[frisian1970]

I was deadzoned in my own post!! :cry

I saw that satan thing on Barna group, pretty surprising!
:confused

[PlentyGroovy]

Post, thread, whatever!! I never claimed to be smart, just forgiven. :):

[frisian1970]

:confused Still not following, I was referring to Mailman Dan in my post...if that is what you are referring to...

[HeIsEnough]

So did you listen to it? Did you notice where, who, and why other preachers of the past made that statement? Did you here what fruit (listed in scripture) was spoke of?

Its based on scripture, and if you opt to not believe that the church contains both true and false converts, false prophets, and people who deny the majority of their faith, then I would have to say you have to deny alot of scripture and overlook whats happening in the church today.

Now Dan, thats not what I said. What I said was the use of the trems 'vast majority', or statistics proclaiming 60, or even as high as 95 percent being false converts. With that, I do have a problem. Truthfully, I have been to many churches, and have wondered about some here and there, but it never led me to those same amounts. I see many bemoaning PDL, but I still do not see anyone capable of making those kinds of judgements. I have actually read quite a few of the pasts great teachers, so in that way I may have heard it before.

Why don't you lay out the scriptural case, so I can discern these 'vast numbers' they claim. And yes, I have studied very deeply what the fruit of the Spirit is, and what it will bring about in a persons life. I suspect you are referring to fruits of repentance, but were you called to look for those in someones life? Or were you called to look for the fruit of the Spirit?


Of course they didn't know they Lord, but they "confessed" to. They scripture is from "many" that say they did works in Gods name, however, Jesus made it clear that despite their claims while on earth, they didn't know Him. Thats what a false convert is...someone who claims to be something they are not.


And if you study those works identified, they have nothing to do with the heart, so its no surprise. I am not saying there are no false converts, and false converts are not wholly captured in just those things identified in that scripture either, in my opinion.

I'm all for encouraging everyone to examine themselves, to see if they are in Christ. I'm not for walking around throwing false statistics around.


Again, look at the difference. I know Christ is the only way, but Jesus clearly warned about those who did NOT follow up on their "conversion."

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Ok, but still, where does this say that what these other teachers implied as far as vast numbers? I did remind you of a very enormous contigent of those washed by the blood of the lamb, in the Revelation. I also reminded you of the story of Elijah, who thought the number of God's people were even less, and God was not pleased at all with his attitude. I am trying to get at the attitude behind the message, and I am not conveying my thoughts very well. Needless to say, there are false converts, but we are talking about two different subjects.

I'm trying not to diverge into who, what and where a false convert is. It is not the sole issue of my point. It is in the attitude behind proclaiming the 'vast majority' to be hellbound.


Jesus did warned, and so did Paul, of numerous false converts and prophets within the church. I suggest reading up on Matthew 7 for starters. Scripture warns clearly against falling away, and says to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. God already stated He would sort out the sheep and goats, the wheat and tares, and He will.

Dan, I have studied scripture for over two decades, and it has not lead me to the same opinions that these men your quoting are exclaming. I have studied and read these scriptures over and over, so I am quite familiar with the concepts here. What I am not familiar with, is someone thinking they know that the vast majority of people I meet at churches are actually on their way to hell. THAT is what I am discussing here. And that is not what the Lord has called anyone to do.


Dan~~~>believes false conversion explains why 50% of confessing christians don't believe Satan exist

For one, christianity is not governed by polls. And if you walk around thinking these numbers to be correct, it can lead you into an attitude that is not christian. Have you walked by someone and felt in your heart, "hmmm, that one probably hasn't repented, and probably ain't saved" If so, then my suggestion is to study the scriptures more.

So, again. Build you case in the scriptures. It may edify us both. Or do you feel you can take these men's polls and research as gospel truth? It does you no good to point to another for explanation. You must develop your own doctrine, otherwise you short change your own witness, in my opinion.

[HeIsEnough]

He also spoke on trials and tribulations (like any of us have to go through those!! Ha!) How the Lord prunes us so we can bare more fruit, how He cuts off the dead branches because they can take over the whole tree and how we should find joy in the pruning via James 1, chapter 1.

And here is where someone may not see what they believe they should see in someone else's life.

Sanctification being a process through this life, otherwise we would see a bunch of true christians walking around amongst a bunch of false converts.

I for one have been pruned enough to know my pruning is not complete. I start to fear for the one who 'thinks' they are done being pruned. Those are the ones who are the hardest to reach.

[Mailman Dan]

First off, you seem to believe this is just my opinion and a few others, when in fact I only agree with many of todays Christian leaders and those of the past...

It is my opinion that tens of thousands, if not millions have be brought into some kind of religious experience by accepting Jesus, but they have not been saved.
A.W. Tozer


The vast majority of people in the church today are not Christians. I say that without the slightest fear of contradiction. It’s based on 24 years of examining thousands of people.
D. James Kennedy


Charles Spurgon, D.L. Moody, and numerous others also held this view. Charles Spurgon even once stated in a sermon that those confessing believers that didn't desire to read the bible were not Christians.

Why don't you lay out the scriptural case, so I can discern these 'vast numbers' they claim.

You've already selected what to believe, and to ignore the direct statements Jesus made in to relation of the many trying to enter heaven, and few going. Those making this claim and using both experience and scripture to make such statements, must also be ignored.

And yes, I have studied very deeply what the fruit of the Spirit is, and what it will bring about in a persons life. I suspect you are referring to fruits of repentance, but were you called to look for those in someones life? Or were you called to look for the fruit of the Spirit?

There are numerous different fruits, all listed in scripture. If you want to know exactly where, I suggest listening to the audio. Jesus also warned about those without the good fruit.

I'm not for walking around throwing false statistics around.

What false statistics are you saying? The Barna group http://www.barna.org/ is a very well respected christian group, used by both christian and secular groups. Your claming them to be false because you don't agree with what they say, when in fact their materials are proven and used by many.

Ok, but still, where does this say that what these other teachers implied as far as vast numbers? I did remind you of a very enormous contigent of those washed by the blood of the lamb, in the Revelation.

Throughout history, how many people do you believe saved? Obviously, countless. I am well aware there are many christians around today as well, but I can tell you of numerous people who have fallen away from the faith. Even here on RR, we have had people go from professing believer to atheist.

And if you walk around thinking these numbers to be correct, it can lead you into an attitude that is not christian. Have you walked by someone and felt in your heart, "hmmm, that one probably hasn't repented, and probably ain't saved" If so, then my suggestion is to study the scriptures more.

And if you walk around thinking everyone who once went to church is a Christian, you'd be wrong. Plus, you'd probably not witness to those who did not live a lifestyle and produced bad fruit, because they once went to church. In doing so, you'd allow them to dive into hell head first without warning. Scripture tells us to not only examine our own lives, but to correct our brothers if they do wrong. If they continue, the we are told to have nothing to do with them.

If I suspect a confessing believer might not really be saved, YOU BET i'd still witnesses to them. I've talked to several people who were once confessing believers who "fell away." Some even decided that they were not really christians in the first place. Are you to tell me i'm wrong for doing such a thing?

BTW, on a related side note...

Since i'm a mailman, I see things many do not usually see. An example would be pastors and regular church goers getting porn in their mail. Usually Playboy comes on the same day their Baptist Standard does. While i'm aware we all sin, even as believers, you think they would at some point be convicted enough to cancel their membership, rather than to renew with the 2 year subscription deals...



Dan~~~>has opinions based on faith in scripture, not on polls or people

[Mailman Dan]

BTW, Barna has a number of interesting stats. (if you opt to believe this christian group)

* 43% of American adults attend church in a typical weekend. (2004)

43% of adults nationwide have attended a church service, not including a special event such as a wedding or a funeral, in the past seven days.(2004) 2002-43% 2001-42% 2000-40% 1997-43% 1996-37% 1992-47% 1991-49%
* From the mid-eighties to the mid-nineties, church attendance was on a roller coaster ride. In 1986, 42% of adults attended a church service during a typical week in January. Attendance rose steadily, reaching a peak of 49% in 1991, before beginning a very slow but steady descent back to 43% in January, 2004.
* 58% of Republicans attended church in a typical weekend compared to 46% of Democrats. (2004)
* 39% of men nationwide compared with 47% of women have attended a church service, not including a special event such as a wedding or a funeral, in the past seven days. (2004)
* Married people are more likely than singles to attend church in a typical weekend: 53% versus 33% respectively. (2004)
* Blacks (48%) are the ethnic group most likely to have attended a religious service in the past week, followed by whites (41%), Hispanics (38%), and Asians (23%). (2004)
*

Catholics and Protestants had virtually the same likelihood of attending church in 2004. Catholics: 2004 51% 2002 46% 2000 49% Protestants: 2004 52% 2002 53% 2000 47%
* Baby Busters are least likely to attend church in a typical weekend (only 30%) versus Baby Boomers (49%), Mosaics (35%), and Elders 54%. (2004)
* Attendance levels are still higher in the “Bible belt” areas – the South and Midwest – than in the Northeast and West. 48% of those in the South and 47% of those in the Midwest attend church in a typical week, compared to 41% of those in the West and 35% of those in the Northeast. (2004)

Average Church Service Size

* The median adult attendance per church service in 1999 was 90 people, which is slightly below the 1998 average of 95 adult attenders.
* The 1999 median of 90 adult attenders is down 10% from the 1997 average of 100 attenders, and down 12% from 1992 (102 adult attenders).

Lasting Impact of Attending Church as a Child

* Adults who attended church regularly as a child are nearly three times as likely to be attending a church today as are their peers who avoided the church during childhood (61% to 22%, respectively). (2001)
* Roughly seven out of ten Americans adults (71%) had a period of time during their childhood when they regularly attended a Christian church. (2001)
* 63% of those who were churched as children take their own children to a church, which is double the proportion among adults who were not churched and who now take their own kids to church (33%). (2001)
* adults who attended church as a child are nearly 50% more likely to pray to God during a typical week than are those who did not attend church as children. (2001)

This one is interesting...

Heaven

* There is a tendency to believe that all good people will live in heaven after they die on earth. In 2004 the public decided on the matter: 50% agree, 39% disagree. This represents little change since 2002 when 55% agreed and 38% disagreed; 1996 when 54% agreed and 38% disagreed; or 1993, when 56% agreed with this notion. (2004)
* Half of all adults (54%) believe that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others during their life, they will earn a place in Heaven. (2004).

Hell

* Three in ten adults (31%) see hell as an actual location: "a place of physical torment where people may be sent." (1996)
* Four in ten adults (37%), say "hell is not a place, but it represents a state of permanent separation from the presence of God." (1996)
* Describing hell as merely a symbolic term, not referring to a physical place was true for two in ten Americans (19%). (1996)

Life After Death: General

Of those who have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ: (2004)

* Of those who have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ: 60% believe they will go to Heaven because they have confessed their sins, and accepted Jesus as their savior.
* 10% believe that they will go to heaven because basically they are a good person.
* 11% don’t know what will happen when they die.
* 7% believe that they will go to Heaven because God loves all people and will not let them perish.
* 7% believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they have tried to obey the 10 commandments.
* 2% believe that when they die they will not go to Heaven.

Wow...

Dan~~~>thought those last few were very interesting...

[frisian1970]

Since i'm a mailman, I see things many do not usually see. An example would be pastors and regular church goers getting porn in their mail. Usually Playboy comes on the same day their Baptist Standard does. While i'm aware we all sin, even as believers, you think they would at some point be convicted enough to cancel their membership, rather than to renew with the 2 year subscription deals...



Dan~~~>has opinions based on faith in scripture, not on polls or peopleImagine all the sin you don't see. I would have thought that David wouldn't have had Bathsheba's husband killed either. Or that Jonah wouldn't have needed to had the fish experience. Or that Israel would have learned after deliverance from Egypt, etc. ad nauseum.

[frisian1970]

Frisian~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Found the thread below linked to be spot on in regards to some of these issues.

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=188224

[Jiggy37]

Life After Death: General

Of those who have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ: (2004)

* Of those who have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ: 60% believe they will go to Heaven because they have confessed their sins, and accepted Jesus as their savior.
* 10% believe that they will go to heaven because basically they are a good person.
* 11% don’t know what will happen when they die.
* 7% believe that they will go to Heaven because God loves all people and will not let them perish.
* 7% believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they have tried to obey the 10 commandments.
* 2% believe that when they die they will not go to Heaven.

Wow...

Dan~~~>thought those last few were very interesting...Other than the "God loves all people" one, I don't. :noidea It's varying terminology and nitpicking to an extent; for example, a person saying that "I believe that I'll go to heaven because I've tried to obey the ten commandments" may actually mean "I believe that I'll go to heaven because Jesus said that if we loved Him, we'd follow His commandments" and simply not be putting that in the exact term as others.

[HeIsEnough]

The vast majority of people in the church today are not Christians. I say that without the slightest fear of contradiction.


Believe what you want, it is your right. Just don't claim scripture agrees with you.


Dan~~~>has opinions based on faith in scripture, not on polls or people

That is a strange statement, considering what you just posted. Post scripture that backs up your statement, and we can discuss.

[PlentyGroovy]

Why would people believe that all people or if your good go to heaven? I often wonder where this belief comes from, doesn't seem to have any backup anywhere. How do people come up with this all on their own?

[HeIsEnough]

I missed this.

Are you to tell me i'm wrong for doing such a thing?

Not at all Dan. What you are led to say to those in your congregation, by all means say it. But knowing how things usually are, your not gonna find too many sitting in the pew next to you for this. Perhaps the problem lies there, when you put faces on these things, it becomes a whole different thing.

[DeeLeeKay]

Lukewarm to me means that they know Jesus, but they remain sidelined in the battle of Good and evil. Those who say things like, "It is not my job to judge wether or not something is a sin" etc... etal. Or they say thing like, "Jesus was a prophet, but not God". In other words they are not willing to put their lives on the line for the faith and Jesus. They are not willing to stand up to evil. They are not cold, in that they do confess Jesus as their savior, but not on fire for him either.

As to who is a Christian and not? Jesus told us we would know one another by OUR FRUIT, not how we obey the OT law.

Fruit of the Spirit is;

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.



If we are in the tree, then WE WILL bear good fruit. It is that simple.

It is not about works, but about learning how to live in the spirit.

[PlentyGroovy]

With your definition of lukewarm, will those have salvation?

[PlentyGroovy]

I have a problem loving people who sin and are unbelievers. It seems the lukewarm have an easier time with that since they have more of live and let live attitude. I love the people who are in Christ more than the people who aren't. Anyone else have this problem? Any advice?

[LDinthewoods]

I have a problem loving people who sin and are unbelievers. It seems the lukewarm have an easier time with that since they have more of live and let live attitude. I love the people who are in Christ more than the people who aren't. Anyone else have this problem? Any advice? I do not have so much of a problem with people that sin...unless it is directed at me. Then, of course, I have to rely on the LORD to change my heart towards them. I am pretty far from having a live & let live attitude, but I truly do not direct it towards the sinner, but sin itself. I know from when I was not saved just how hard it is to see the error of your own sin & I do not hold that against people.

I have the hardest time with professing believers that do not read the Bible or make any effort to change and/or are not even open to the idea that they may need to change some of their behavior. People that always have an "I'm okay, you're okay" mentality....because, often they make it tempting to do things myself that I have already been convicted of & repented.

[Big Daddy]

Why would people believe that all people or if your good go to heaven? I often wonder where this belief comes from, doesn't seem to have any backup anywhere. How do people come up with this all on their own?

I think this comes form a huministic attempt at answering the philisofical question of "Is everything come from nothing (just random chance that anything exists at all) or was their a Creator?

Seems they have concluded that there is a Creator, but never make the rest of the journey in trying to find out what He wants from us.

If they keep searching for the Truth, it will lead to God and His Word.

He is not silent.

[Big Daddy]

With your definition of lukewarm, will those have salvation?
I don't agree with that definition of lukewarm posted above, and would look here to see if they have salvation:
Rev.3
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
You really want this white robe.
Rev6.
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Think of your water faucet. There is a cold and a hot handle. Mix them together to get warm.
Now think of your heart. It is either going to cold (rebelious) against God or hot for Him and doing His will.
Rev3.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I see this as saying someone is doing what they feel is God's Will and justifing their actions by the blessings they see themselves recieving. Their hearts are turned to the rewards they feel they are getting for doing "God's Will".

Their hearts have been turned from moving in the Spirit to being moved by the blessing they see themselves receiving.
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich
Rich with the rewards we will recieve for the works that survive the fire.

I think it's bad to be spewed out of God's mouth.
Do you want to be in God's spitoon? Rejected by God?

Word's come out of His mouth, and I want to be mixed in there with His Word ;):

Read Rev 1-3 and think of it as Jesus showing us the visible church.

Try to place yourself and examine your heart in relation to all seven of those churches.

True Christians are the invisible church.

All of the visible church are not saved.
All of the invisible church are saved.

Only way one can tell where one stands is by examining ones heart.

Only God can see in our hearts, and only he can tell a state of a persons salvation.

He gave us these warnings here in Rev to help us examine ourselves and our hearts.

Pray for help and guidance from the Holy Spirit in this matter.

[PlentyGroovy]

I guess it's rather silly to be annoyed by someone else's sin, it's not like I don't have my own to contend with, at least a plank in the eye. I need to work on loving the sinner and hate the sin. Sometimes I feel I need to remove myself from the relationship when the sin is just too much for me to disregard. I would rather remove myself than say anything about the sin or why it bothers me. This is in regard to unbelievers. I don't seem to have that problem with believers, they have the holy spirit convicting them and so do I, on our sins.

[PlentyGroovy]

Bid Daddy - would you consider that humistic view as a sort of humanity religion? I want to label it, humanist? Sort of a warm, fuzzy view of the universe with nothing other than evolution and the conviction of the spirit that God writes on all hearts?

[PlentyGroovy]

BD - How funny, I was weeping last night and my 7 yr old daughter finds me and says we need to read the bible right now. She gets her children's bible and says very forcefully, we need to read Revelations right now. And we take turns reading aloud through Revelations. It's wonderful and strange to have a little prophetess in the house. God is amazing.

[Big Daddy]

I guess it's rather silly to be annoyed by someone else's sin, it's not like I don't have my own to contend with, at least a plank in the eye. I need to work on loving the sinner and hate the sin. Sometimes I feel I need to remove myself from the relationship when the sin is just too much for me to disregard. I would rather remove myself than say anything about the sin or why it bothers me. This is in regard to unbelievers. I don't seem to have that problem with believers, they have the holy spirit convicting them and so do I, on our sins.
I feel your pain here.
I have friends that are unbelievers, and when I see something that is really troublesome to me, I just simply call a spade a spade. I say something like," that's a sin, and you'll be accountable for that"

The response varies, but I look at it like a seed planted.

If there is any light in their heart, they will ponder it God take care of the rest.

Maybe they would ask what I mean by my comment, and I can give an acceptable answer why I believe what I do, and back up my statement.

[Big Daddy]

Bid Daddy - would you consider that humistic view as a sort of humanity religion? I want to label it, humanist? Sort of a warm, fuzzy view of the universe with nothing other than evolution and the conviction of the spirit that God writes on all hearts?
Sure, I do.
I feel that ones over all world view dictates all they do and feel in life.

The person that at least believes in a Devine Creator would be more open to the Truth.

The other type could take a lifetime just to come to the acceptance of God.
Then one would hope they come to Jesus.

There was a guy in the news recently, in the past year.
A outspoken athiest, who after a lifetme of debate on the subject of "is there a God?" he has finally come to admit that maybe there was room for a god in his view of the universe.

Well, that's a start I guess.

I like this verse to explain the mindset of those that believe that there is a devine creator, but never take that beief to the logical end and find Jesus:
Acts17
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
[28] For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The humanistic view puts man at his own center instead of God.

Try CS Lewis, "Mere Christianity"
Or Francise A. Schaeffer, "How Should We Then Live?"
for an understanding of the humanistice view point and how it leads to nothing.

[LDinthewoods]

I guess it's rather silly to be annoyed by someone else's sin, it's not like I don't have my own to contend with, at least a plank in the eye. I need to work on loving the sinner and hate the sin. Sometimes I feel I need to remove myself from the relationship when the sin is just too much for me to disregard. I would rather remove myself than say anything about the sin or why it bothers me. This is in regard to unbelievers. I don't seem to have that problem with believers, they have the holy spirit convicting them and so do I, on our sins.
IMHO, we as believers should ONLY use a non-believers sin to point out to them how they have broken GOD's laws....ONLY if necessary when witnessing to them. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter what kind of sin it is because everyone's sin is the same in GOD's eyes. I will not be held accountable for someone else's particular sins, but I will be held accountable for at least telling them about CHRIST & showing them by example who JESUS is.

[Big Daddy]

BD - How funny, I was weeping last night and my 7 yr old daughter finds me and says we need to read the bible right now. She gets her children's bible and says very forcefully, we need to read Revelations right now. And we take turns reading aloud through Revelations. It's wonderful and strange to have a little prophetess in the house. God is amazing.
Out of the mouths of babes!
My 7 yr old son does the SAME thing to me.

[Big Daddy]

IMHO, we as believers should ONLY use a non-believers sin to point out to them how they have broken GOD's laws....ONLY if necessary when witnessing to them. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter what kind of sin it is because everyone's sin is the same in GOD's eyes. I will not be held accountable for someone else's particular sins, but I will be held accountable for at least telling them about CHRIST & showing them by example who JESUS is.
:thumb
Yes, when my buddy brags on the fact he is going out tonight and will probably hit on some broad he knows (he is married), I plainly tell him that is a sin against God. If he wants to debate it, I will, but I won't beat him up with a bible.

That guy Ray Comfort seems to evangelicize by using the law to convict those that listen to him. Some walk away, and it seems at least one will take him on and debate his views.

So even if the debater never comes around to Jesus and Ray's message, maybe someone else observing and listening does, and goes on to find the Truth.

[PlentyGroovy]

Good stuff! I am looking for books to read, thank you for the suggestions.

When you tell someone that is a sin, do they ever come back with saying 'and oh you are so perfect'? How do you handle a personal attack of the other accusing you of being 'holier-than-thou'? That's what I'm afraid of in those circumstances.

My very best friend tells me she is not good enough for God, that He'll reject her. I've tried and tried to tell her how much He loves her. She has this image of God-folk that look like the perfect dressed up families she sees going into churches and says I'm just not one of them. :doh

[Jiggy37]

When you tell someone that is a sin, do they ever come back with saying 'and oh you are so perfect'? How do you handle a personal attack of the other accusing you of being 'holier-than-thou'?Go to the political forum and express some opinions of yours that you know beforehand are more liberal than what most here believe and build up a tougher skin. That's what I do. :noidea :lol I figure that if I can't take the criticism of friends whose side I'm already on and whose side I think I'm guaranteed to be by eternally, just whose criticism can I take?

[Big Daddy]

Good stuff! I am looking for books to read, thank you for the suggestions.

When you tell someone that is a sin, do they ever come back with saying 'and oh you are so perfect'? How do you handle a personal attack of the other accusing you of being 'holier-than-thou'? That's what I'm afraid of in those circumstances.

My very best friend tells me she is not good enough for God, that He'll reject her. I've tried and tried to tell her how much He loves her. She has this image of God-folk that look like the perfect dressed up families she sees going into churches and says I'm just not one of them. :doh
Here is an awsome book to pick up.
It will really open up your understanding on the times we are living in and alot of God's Word in general.
"The Footsteps of the Messiah (http://ariel.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?)", by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

His site is pretty good too. Ariel Ministries (http://www.ariel.org/)

I do not go around convicting my friends as sinners all the time :laugh
Don't want to give that impression.

But I do call'em as I see'em.
When my buddy says or does something that needs to be called out, I just shake my head and tell him that what he is saying or doing is "so bad". That it is a sin.

He knows it is, and I think doesn't want to defend his actions.

I have seen a change in him the last year or so.
I would welcome him cahllenging me, or questioning where I get off, I have could give him an acceptable answer.

Him and I have very similar backrounds and history.
We go back forever.

I like the Jiggulators suggestion too!!
Those conservative right peeps will skin ya alive! :laugh

[Jiggy37]

I like the Jiggulators suggestion too!!
Those conservative right peeps will skin ya alive! :laughNew nickname's attributed to you! :thumb

[LDinthewoods]

Those conservative right peeps will skin ya alive! :laugh


Oh, please....the libs on this site can be pretty vicious too. Just not as many of them as there are uptight conservatives....that's all. Doesn't make them any less mean! :lol

:whip

:fencing (http://misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)

[Jiggy37]

Oh, please....the libs on this site can be pretty vicious too. Just not as many of them as there are uptight conservatives....that's all.That's the point. ;): :lol

[Big Daddy]

New nickname's attributed to you! :thumb
YES!!!
I was shooting for that.

[PlentyGroovy]

Ewww, yuck, ewww.

I found a site for humanists, www.secularhumanisn.org. Pure evil. They have a library of past articles and the couple I clicked on are taking the word of God and twisting it into unbelievable stretches...how Paul speaks of love and the love of homosexuals would be approved because God is about love but Christians are hateful beings who hate and despise homosexuals therefore hypocrites, etc. The old excuse, hey we aren't sacrificing animals anymore so the laws of Leviticus are null and void. The usual.

I can write their motto for them. "We don't want to be held accountable".

What do you suppose Jesus would say to them?

[Jiggy37]

Ewww, yuck, ewww.

I found a site for humanists, www.secularhumanisn.org. Pure evil. They have a library of past articles and the couple I clicked on are taking the word of God and twisting it into unbelievable stretches...how Paul speaks of love and the love of homosexuals would be approved because God is about love but Christians are hateful beings who hate and despise homosexuals therefore hypocrites, etc. The old excuse, hey we aren't sacrificing animals anymore so the laws of Leviticus are null and void. The usual.

I can write their motto for them. "We don't want to be held accountable".

What do you suppose Jesus would say to them?He'd probably do the same thing as with so many other hypocrites: show them their hypocrisy. In this case, it's that they believe themselves intellectually superior, but then they don't even take the time to understand the arguments they're looking at before they go ahead and pretend to understand them and attack them in strawman fashion. :noidea
It's the same old John 9:41 Pharisees story, except this time coming from those without any kind of faith: (paraphrasing off the top of my head) "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin, but since you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

[PlentyGroovy]

Explain more to me on their hypocrisy...I'm not sure I understand, but I like it!

They said that God destroyed Lot's wife because God was ashamed of her seeing what he did. These people scare me.

[Jiggy37]

Explain more to me on their hypocrisy...I'm not sure I understand, but I like it!Their belief: that Christianity is stupid and they're smart.
Their idea: to prove that that's true by showing the hypocrisy of the Bible.
Their problem: they don't actually understand the Bible.

It would be like me saying that I'm smarter than everyone and then trying to prove that the sun rotates around the earth because 8 = 7 and 2 = 5 and a multiplication symbol really means "this comes last in the order of operations" and therefore all current mathematical calculations are wrong. :noidea Unless you're being hypothetical, you can't just start making up stuff any time you want to just to prove a point.

[PlentyGroovy]

It is rejecting without understanding what they are rejecting.

Secular humanism has taken over this country in leaps and bounds. It is truly dangerous, it will lead many astray. If Jesus would point out their hipocrisy to them...would that be the best way to witness? Hell doesn't scare them since they reason a God of love would never send them, they think they are tolerant/loving and their understanding is above a simple message of salvation through Christ.