Slammed by My Church

[Jenny]

I have a unique situation. I put in an offering plate an anonymous message several weeks ago to my church. I stated that I would like to hear more hard-nose topics addressed like abortion, gay marriage, bible prophecy, etc. I stated that I felt the church was being too "politically correct" and vague in it's messages.

Well the pastor (who is leaving in a few weeks after 2 years) stated that he got the message and practically slammed the person for being "anonymous". And went onto a whole message on how we are to focus on God and loving others rather than pointing fingers at people and focusing on "social issues". He stated that the church doesn't go deep into these topics since everyone has differing opinions and that they don't want to turn people off (gee how bold of them!)

He then at the end practically stated that the person who wrote this was "judgemental and critical" and must look at themselve b/f making judgments on others. Grrrr..... I try and do what I felt led to do for the good of the church and this is what i get. I definetly think I'm gonna try out another church near me that actually addressed the topic of abortion on their sign and is the church that alot of people have moved to since leaving this church. (my church has had problems)

Anyway I'm confused but I still think I was right in that the churches need to be less vague and bold and worried about offending people. This is what I call being in the age of "politically correct christians". I don't think Jesus would have us be this way would he? This to me is a sign of being in the last days.... :yell

[OscarTheOnion]

I have a unique situation. I put in an offering plate an anonymous message several weeks ago to my church. I stated that I would like to hear more hard-nose topics addressed like abortion, gay marriage, bible prophecy, etc. I stated that I felt the church was being too "politically correct" and vague in it's messages.

Well the pastor (who is leaving in a few weeks after 2 years) stated that he got the message and practically slammed the person for being "anonymous". And went onto a whole message on how we are to focus on God and loving others rather than pointing fingers at people and focusing on "social issues". He stated that the church doesn't go deep into these topics since everyone has differing opinions and that they don't want to turn people off (gee how bold of them!)

He then at the end practically stated that the person who wrote this was "judgemental and critical" and must look at themselve b/f making judgments on others. Grrrr..... I try and do what I felt led to do for the good of the church and this is what i get. I definetly think I'm gonna try out another church near me that actually addressed the topic of abortion on their sign and is the church that alot of people have moved to since leaving this church. (my church has had problems)

Anyway I'm confused but I still think I was right in that the churches need to be less vague and bold and worried about offending people. This is what I call being in the age of "politically correct christians". I don't think Jesus would have us be this way would he? This to me is a sign of being in the last days.... :yell

Know what I think? I think you rock. :thumb

[jjkn]

Me too!:hug

[Proudmommy]

You did good. I think this pastor needs to take a good look at himself, instead of judging you. I wonder if your boldness at addressing what you see 'wrong' with the church would embolden other members to stand up and speak out. :thumb

[Bystillwaters]

Great move. I think you're brave and right on!!!

[Jenny]

hey thanks all for your encouraging words!!! I was feeling pretty poopy ... lol But I know in my heart that I did the right thing and I wonder why he's suddenly leaving the church. I heard it was because of family problems and that he has to leave the state but the timing of it is odd. I just couldn't believe the power one little person (me) could have on a church. I guess it shows us that we do have power if only we take that step. I hope that more people will follow though in changing this church for the better- :)

[Proudmommy]

Ok I just wanted to comment on this:

He stated that the church doesn't go deep into these topics since everyone has differing opinions and that they don't want to turn people off

Who cares if it turns people off? What about what God says? It shouldn't matter what a person's opinion is, if you are teaching exactly what the Bible says. :doh

[RobinB]

I think you did great too! :clap

My dh and I were just talking about our own church and wondering when the "accepting gays" sermon is coming. . . we haven't been attending after hearing that possibility exists. (It's Lutheran, so we know the issue is out there at the higher levels)

My church is so small and since I'm one of the few members under 65, I think the pastor would have a good idea who would write such a note.

[magnolia]

That fact that he talked about it at length proves it really affected him and hopefully convicted him. They don't preach on social issues because it might offend people? Okay welcome to the world of Christianity. If he doesn't want to offend people he shouldn't be a Christian, period.

[Chahta]

hey thanks all for your encouraging words!!! I was feeling pretty poopy ... lol But I know in my heart that I did the right thing and I wonder why he's suddenly leaving the church. I heard it was because of family problems and that he has to leave the state but the timing of it is odd. I just couldn't believe the power one little person (me) could have on a church. I guess it shows us that we do have power if only we take that step. I hope that more people will follow though in changing this church for the better- :)

You should not feel bad at all. You should be commended. Look how many others heard his reponse and see what they do.

Seek and yea shall find..... You sought an answer to your qustions. You are being blessed with an answer. Though it appears you were being personally ripped I believe the entire scenario was out of your hands. You were simply the messenger IMHO....... Bless you!

[joy4Him2day]

I am gonna be odd man out here.....
but, I think what the Pastor preaches on is in God's hands.....
I think Miriam had a similar problem with Moses, and ended up with leprosy........

the guy who claimed to have killed Saul (which he did because he thought David was going to be happy to have him out of the way) was sentenced to death because David said no one is to touch the ones God puts into office........

I think we are slowly being mesmerized by all the abuse to quit believing that God is the one who gives men leadership and not man, and in talking against who is in leadership, we are judging the law and bringing condemnation on ourselves.......

the fact that you recognize that the pastor is lacking in some areas may be testing you to see if you remain loyal to your pastor....you have not said that he was preaching error, just that he wasn't preaching on subjects that you thought he should be.......

in no way am I condemning you for this.....I am just discovering how much I have been drawn in with the world's unhappiness with leadership=====equaling the lawlessness that is to abound in the end times.......

I think you were wrong in sending the note in the offering plate---I think that satan could use it to discourage, and destroy, rather than build and encourage.......we are to lift the weary hands, and help the Pastor's load......

I can only repeat these words as I have just been through this discipline myself.....I grieve seriously over negative thoughts I have had over my church, rather, than recognizing God trusting me with "eyes" for intercession......

I feel saddened by my falling into the Israelite's camp of complaints against leadership......lately, I have had to fight it a lot....I think it is pure warfare, plain and simple, against a church that God is calling together.......

it is interesting that you were offended by his comments, but mentioned that he was unwilling to offend others' by words you thought he should say.....
these are things I am discovering about my own life, too......

[Mommy2KandM]

WOW Joy! That was an though provoking post. Much to chew on in your words. Being in Christ is such a long and growing process isn't it! :thumb:

[Jenny]

I am gonna be odd man out here.....
but, I think what the Pastor preaches on is in God's hands.....
I think Miriam had a similar problem with Moses, and ended up with leprosy........

the guy who claimed to have killed Saul (which he did because he thought David was going to be happy to have him out of the way) was sentenced to death because David said no one is to touch the ones God puts into office........

I think we are slowly being mesmerized by all the abuse to quit believing that God is the one who gives men leadership and not man, and in talking against who is in leadership, we are judging the law and bringing condemnation on ourselves.......

the fact that you recognize that the pastor is lacking in some areas may be testing you to see if you remain loyal to your pastor....you have not said that he was preaching error, just that he wasn't preaching on subjects that you thought he should be.......

in no way am I condemning you for this.....I am just discovering how much I have been drawn in with the world's unhappiness with leadership=====equaling the lawlessness that is to abound in the end times.......

I think you were wrong in sending the note in the offering plate---I think that satan could use it to discourage, and destroy, rather than build and encourage.......we are to lift the weary hands, and help the Pastor's load......

I can only repeat these words as I have just been through this discipline myself.....I grieve seriously over negative thoughts I have had over my church, rather, than recognizing God trusting me with "eyes" for intercession......

I feel saddened by my falling into the Israelite's camp of complaints against leadership......lately, I have had to fight it a lot....I think it is pure warfare, plain and simple, against a church that God is calling together.......

it is interesting that you were offended by his comments, but mentioned that he was unwilling to offend others' by words you thought he should say.....
these are things I am discovering about my own life, too......

I wasn't offended really i just was surprised that he was that upset with it. I think sometimes we have to take that chance to strength an already falling church. This church has been having problems and I think that it might have been part of the problem the passiveness of it.

[Jenny]

That fact that he talked about it at length proves it really affected him and hopefully convicted him. They don't preach on social issues because it might offend people? Okay welcome to the world of Christianity. If he doesn't want to offend people he shouldn't be a Christian, period.


I fully agree with that and that is a problem with christians today. We don't take the stand that we should all in the name of "tolerance" and afraid to stir up dissension. That is what satan wants us to do -- in other words "do nothing". and be passive....

[Jenny]

You should not feel bad at all. You should be commended. Look how many others heard his reponse and see what they do.

Seek and yea shall find..... You sought an answer to your qustions. You are being blessed with an answer. Though it appears you were being personally ripped I believe the entire scenario was out of your hands. You were simply the messenger IMHO....... Bless you!

Thank you!!! I feel blessed already... :clap

[Cricket55]

Our pastor just started doing a series on those controversial issues. Today he did evolution and about it being taught in the schools. I think he did a good job handling it and covering all points well. He is eventually going to do one on endtimes but is taking his time with that one, thinks maybe this summer sometime.

[joy4Him2day]

.... and I wonder why he's suddenly leaving the church. I just couldn't believe the power one little person (me) could have on a church. I guess it shows us that we do have power if only we take that step.



Jenny: seriously. you need to listen to your words.........

this is indeed perilous times........we are going to have a hard time coming under leadership because we think we know what is best for us....well, God appoints leadership for a reason.........

this is satan's way of bringing division----and you have already stated you see people leaving the church already.......we must show some loyalty to the people God puts in place for leadership, even if it appears they might be making some decisions that are different than ours........God is looking for loyalty in His army in these last days....ones that will not be thrown by everything that throws the world.......

another church will not meet your demands because that is not the problem........
look at this carefully......this is part of the soldier manual.......:pray

[AnyDayNow]

Keep up the great work, Jenny! :): You know what my pastor told us 3 sunday nights ago? He said if we didn't want to help make disciples, we might as well close our doors! I LOVE the guy! :nod

[Jenny]

Jenny: seriously. you need to listen to your words.........

this is indeed perilous times........we are going to have a hard time coming under leadership because we think we know what is best for us....well, God appoints leadership for a reason.........

this is satan's way of bringing division----and you have already stated you see people leaving the church already.......we must show some loyalty to the people God puts in place for leadership, even if it appears they might be making some decisions that are different than ours........God is looking for loyalty in His army in these last days....ones that will not be thrown by everything that throws the world.......

another church will not meet your demands because that is not the problem........
look at this carefully......this is part of the soldier manual.......:pray

i'm sorry i don't agree with you--- i think the problem is too many passive christians and churches. If I adopt your viewpoint then nothing is going to change- (and satan btw...wants us to adopt a PASSIVE attitude and do nothing) Which I refuse to do-

[Jenny]

Our pastor just started doing a series on those controversial issues. Today he did evolution and about it being taught in the schools. I think he did a good job handling it and covering all points well. He is eventually going to do one on endtimes but is taking his time with that one, thinks maybe this summer sometime.

that is awesome! That is what should be happening - and I was very sad that my church hasn't addressed the rapture or bible prophecy ONCE! not good---they are leaving out some of the most important parts of our message to people today especially in these end time!!!

[Proudmommy]

I don't understand, Joy, what is wrong with what she did? She wasn't trying to cause dissension. Is it right to allow 'leaders' to ignore the Word for fear of upseting someone? They are there to feed the Christians, not to appease church goers.

[Jenny]

Keep up the great work, Jenny! :): You know what my pastor told us 3 sunday nights ago? He said if we didn't want to help make disciples, we might as well close our doors! I LOVE the guy! :nod

Right on--that is great~! We need that kind of boldness-

[joy4Him2day]

:cry :cry

Jenny and Proudmommy:

Passivity is a tool of satan....I agree---I being one of the largest passive christian's: including my role as daughter, wife, mother, soldier for Christ......

it pains me to continue in this thread.....in my old ways, I would not have entered conflict, and, as someone who caused strife, contention, and murmurings in my church by my passive "anonymous" comments, I am speaking from very regretful, painful, but forgiven, experience......

Inasmuch, as your chief complaint is that your pastor is not "preaching or teaching" what YOU think he should, I feel compelled to speak up in "boldness", which I must tell you I am doing in much fear and trembling......

Because your Pastor is not teaching error, I think that you are challenging his leadership, which puts you in danger of challenging God's choice of leader, which puts you directly in challenging God as final authority----He did not give you that role, He gave that role to your Pastor.....He is working with your Pastor, and you are to be the helpmeet and encourager---

What I see you doing is causing dissention, because it is not building, but tearing down.....Building would be going to his office, and talking face to face to him and talking about the issues that are bothering you.....While you judged him for not being "bold" in talking to the people---you, yourself were not "bold" in confronting him with what was bothering you......

Instead, you saw yourself as powerful, because now, one person (me),(your words) had such power in the church by one anonymous note.......

I think that you are currently blind to what God is showing you.......
yes, we are to be "bold"---but, I would not be "bold" in this case, by challenging God in this manner.......

[StinkerBell]

:thumb

[Mommy2KandM]

Can I ask why you brought these issues to a brother in Christ in secret, hidden on a piece of paper in the offering, anonymously? (which is a place you put your offerings to God. Not make complaints.) I understand you are frustrated with what you see as passiveness in your church... but isn't it also passive to send a note of this type in the offering plate with out a name?

I would guess that part of your pastors anger (if that is the proper word for it) came from the way he was approached. I think we can more easily accept and digest criticism from a brother or sister in Christ if it is delivered constructively, in person, and in Love.


Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he does not listen {to you,} take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


Edit to add: sorry Joy I just read your last post. Didn't realize you had already said something similar. :doh

[Jenny]

:cry :cry

Jenny and Proudmommy:

Passivity is a tool of satan....I agree---I being one of the largest passive christian's: including my role as daughter, wife, mother, soldier for Christ......

it pains me to continue in this thread.....in my old ways, I would not have entered conflict, and, as someone who caused strife, contention, and murmurings in my church by my passive "anonymous" comments, I am speaking from very regretful, painful, but forgiven, experience......

Inasmuch, as your chief complaint is that your pastor is not "preaching or teaching" what YOU think he should, I feel compelled to speak up in "boldness", which I must tell you I am doing in much fear and trembling......

Because your Pastor is not teaching error, I think that you are challenging his leadership, which puts you in danger of challenging God's choice of leader, which puts you directly in challenging God as final authority----He did not give you that role, He gave that role to your Pastor.....He is working with your Pastor, and you are to be the helpmeet and encourager---

What I see you doing is causing dissention, because it is not building, but tearing down.....Building would be going to his office, and talking face to face to him and talking about the issues that are bothering you.....While you judged him for not being "bold" in talking to the people---you, yourself were not "bold" in confronting him with what was bothering you......

Instead, you saw yourself as powerful, because now, one person (me),(your words) had such power in the church by one anonymous note.......

I think that you are currently blind to what God is showing you.......
yes, we are to be "bold"---but, I would not be "bold" in this case, by challenging God in this manner.......

Joy,


but, I would not be "bold" in this case, by challenging God in this manner.......[/QUOTE]

Joy- you have a right to have your opinion and there is always gonna be someone on this board that disagrees with our points of view. But I don't think I challenged God - I challenged the church to take a stand and tackle some important topics in these end times that people so desperately need to hear.

I'm sorry but I don't regret what I did and I would do it again. The Holy Spirit within me gives me peace about this matter. Praise God!!!

[StinkerBell]

Can I ask why you brought these issues to a brother in Christ in secret, hidden on a piece of paper in the offering, anonymously? (which is a place you put your offerings to God. Not make complaints.) I understand you are frustrated with what you see as passiveness in your church... but isn't it also passive to send a note of this type in the offering plate with out a name?

I would have never consider this myself, until now. Our offering baskets we are encouraged to drop in personal prayer requst if needed, or even a change of address......

:noidea

[Jenny]

friendly, not tolerant. Jesus will be returning soon and He'll want his rainbow back.

btw....that statement rocks and is so TRUE! PRaise God!!! :) Thumb

[StinkerBell]

I would like to add two more pennies......:heh

The pastor IMHO handed her over this sense of power. He could have just took the note as a member making a requst. He did not need to go off about the details of the note and in sense give Jenny the empowerment he gave.. His speech IMHO about what her note would create the divide. Now with the pastor telling the whole church what was said, he himself maybe the one to cause the divide. Especially if others agree with her.....


She (jenny) may have started a little fire, but IMHO he added a whole lot of fuel.

Just what I think.....

[Mommy2KandM]

I would have never consider this myself, until now. Our offering baskets we are encouraged to drop in personal prayer request if needed, or even a change of address......

:noidea


Good point. I don't know how things are done at Jenny's church. Perhaps they are encouraged to use the offering plate for other things as well. :noidea

At the Church we attend the offering is included as part of our time of worship. It is separate from time to turn in change of address, prayer request, etc... We have a box near the door for those things. Our offerings are one of the ways we worship the Lord.

So my post is coming from the point of view of an overing plate or overing bag being just a place for offerings, not other things.

[joy4Him2day]

Mommy2KM:

the verse that you quoted about going to a brother in private:

l. is a Pastor not preaching what a parishoner wishes him to preach, a sin?

2. is a Pastor answerable to the parishener for his sermon topics? or to God?

that is my question.....
I see churches divided over parishoners wanting to have authority over the pastor......or, leadership over the pastor.......

what are the rules exactly here, concerning this?
what do the letters say?
we are not talking about sin.........

[Jenny]

nice...now i'm getting all the "negative comments" lol oh well I guess I can just stand on my own knowing what I did was right. PRaise HIm!!!!!!!

[4everHis]

I think the note was given in private via the offering plate. I don't see a problem.
Some people are not confrontational and it was a bold move to even write the note.

You're missing the point here. The sermons were apparently vanilla in nature as so many are in so many churches these days. Feel good preaching...I call it.

On the other hand, who wants to hear a 30 minute sermon slamming some social issue.
We get so much of that in every day life.

[StinkerBell]

I am the first to admit..I have put Hershey Kisses in the plate....(knwing that the people who do the deposit will have a little treat for their work)....

[Jenny]

no it's a comments page we can drop in the plate--- which encourages us to do so and says we can be anonymous or what not-- That is what it is for and christians should take a stand in their church when they see the message isn't being preached for fear of not "being politically correct". I know I did the right thing....you can slam me too but it won't change my conviction on what I know is right- May God bless you for thinking this issue over~!

[joy4Him2day]

I would like to add two more pennies......:heh

The pastor IMHO handed her over this sense of power. He could have just took the note as a member making a requst. He did not need to go off about the details of the note and in sense give Jenny the empowerment he gave.. His speech IMHO about what her note would create the divide. Now with the pastor telling the whole church what was said, he himself maybe the one to cause the divide. Especially if others agree with her.....


AHe (jenny) may have started a little fire, but IMHO he added a whole lot of fuel.

Just what I think.....

Yes, I agree with this. I think the Pastor should not have addressed this from the pulpit in the manner that he did......it is obvious that this church is in a great deal of trouble......
it is obvious that this Pastor is in need of a great deal of christian prayers.....
the lesson being for both of them, I think, and indeed, myself. Thank you.....
:hug Jenny

[Proudmommy]

I would like to add two more pennies......:heh

The pastor IMHO handed her over this sense of power. He could have just took the note as a member making a requst. He did not need to go off about the details of the note and in sense give Jenny the empowerment he gave.. His speech IMHO about what her note would create the divide. Now with the pastor telling the whole church what was said, he himself maybe the one to cause the divide. Especially if others agree with her.....

Just what I think.....
Good point. No one else would have known about the note had the pastor not brought it up. He could have hadled it better by saying, "I received a note a couple of weeks ago about the direction of the church, I'd like to speak with the author of that note, if you'd be so kind to see me about it." Maybe Jenny could have handled differently by going to the pastor personally, but we don't know her personality or how open or available the pastor makes himself either. I do understand what you are saying Joy. But, I honestly get the feeling that Jenny was not trying to cause strife.

[AnyDayNow]

...this is indeed perilous times...have a hard time coming under leadership because we think we know what is best for us....well, God appoints leadership for a reason...

Yes, and here is that reason (emphasis mine):

2 Timothy 4:1-4 1. I solemnly charge {you} in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2. preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. (NASB)

All Jenny was doing was calling her pastor on what he was instructed by SCRIPTURE to do. There is no use for reproving, rebuking and exhortation when you will not confront what is CLEARLY sin as a pastor. IMO, Jenny's right on this one. You are right about one thing, Joy. The times spoken about in verse 3 are now here. And it is EXACTLY why Paul gave these instructions!

[kitten]

I think you did good too! It takes guts to step up and say what you did. You go girlfriend!

[Jenny]

Yes, I agree with this. I think the Pastor should not have addressed this from the pulpit in the manner that he did......it is obvious that this church is in a great deal of trouble......
it is obvious that this Pastor is in need of a great deal of christian prayers.....
the lesson being for both of them, I think, and indeed, myself. Thank you.....
:hug Jenny


:hug Joy Thanks--- It might have been handled in the wrong way by both me and the pastor but at least it has been addressed. I think it's hard to be so bold to personally do it since you set up yourself for persecution. I guess I'm not THAT bold...lol But I think the Lord would rather have us HOT or cold and my church has been way too lukewarm with lukewarm (meaningless) messages...

[Jenny]

Yes, and here is that reason (emphasis mine):



All Jenny was doing was calling her pastor on what he was instructed by SCRIPTURE to do. There is no use for reproving, rebuking and exhortation when you will not confront what is CLEARLY sin as a pastor. IMO, Jenny's right on this one. You are right about one thing, Joy. The times spoken about in verse 3 are now here. And it is EXACTLY why Paul gave these instructions!

that is a great verse for this situation.... :clap

[Mommy2KandM]

I would like to add two more pennies......:heh

The pastor IMHO handed her over this sense of power. He could have just took the note as a member making a request. He did not need to go off about the details of the note and in sense give Jenny the empowerment he gave.. His speech IMHO about what her note would create the divide. Now with the pastor telling the whole church what was said, he himself maybe the one to cause the divide. Especially if others agree with her.....


AHe (jenny) may have started a little fire, but IMHO he added a whole lot of fuel.

Just what I think.....

This is also very true. We all battle against our flesh each and ever day, even pastors. Though an anonymous note kinda leaves a pastor with no way to respond or communicate with a concern of the church.

If he was out of line I pray that God convicts him on that issue and heals his heart & then shows him how He would like him to respond.

I hope all parties on both sides (jenny and her pastor took this issue up in prayer (and not just moments before doing the writing or the preaching) and took time to listen to what the Lord wanted them to do.)

[StinkerBell]

The Pastor could have made a short announcement...

"The other week someone dropped at note making some requst..I would love to meet with you and talk"




This I think would have been better, I place more responsibility on the Pastor cause he is the leader....

[StinkerBell]

...I ' all out of pennies now :cry....

[joy4Him2day]

The Pastor could have made a short announcement...

"The other week someone dropped at note making some requst..I would love to meet with you and talk"






"And would the person who dropped the hershey's kisses in the offering, please see me after the service, as I would like to put in a special request...." ............ :):

[Jenny]

yes i had prayed about it for months and finally realized that I should mention it. I just meant it as a suggestion not as an attack on the church. Frankly, I was confused as to why the church was not talking about these issues especially Bible Prophecy and Rapture which is so important to me. And I'm excited about it! I was sad that my church doesn't seem to care about it or even mention it. I think being in California it's harder since the tendancy is towards more of a liberal approach to even faith. God is God and his laws are clearly set in His word. We can't avoid or glass over the truth and unfortunately in these times, we are doing that....

[Proudmommy]

"And would the person who dropped the hershey's kisses in the offering, please see me after the service, as I would like to put in a special request...." ............ :):
:spit :lol

[joy4Him2day]

This I think would have been better, I place more responsibility on the Pastor cause he is the leader....


this is also astute, and true.....
but, Jenny was addressing what she had done, to begin with, so that is what I addressed...... :):

[StinkerBell]

:heh



I need more pennies for other threads....KRISTINA give me some of your pennies...

[Proudmommy]

yes i had prayed about it for months and finally realized that I should mention it. I just meant it as a suggestion not as an attack on the church. Frankly, I was confused as to why the church was not talking about these issues especially Bible Prophecy and Rapture which is so important to me. And I'm excited about it! I was sad that my church doesn't seem to care about it or even mention it. I think being in California it's harder since the tendancy is towards more of a liberal approach to even faith. God is God and his laws are clearly set in His word. We can't avoid or glass over the truth and unfortunately in these times, we are doing that....
Alot of churches are like this, I've noticed. We've lived in this area for over two years now, and we still haven't found one that is right for us.

[joy4Him2day]

yes i had prayed about it for months and finally realized that I should mention it. I just meant it as a suggestion not as an attack on the church. Frankly, I was confused as to why the church was not talking about these issues especially Bible Prophecy and Rapture which is so important to me. And I'm excited about it! I was sad that my church doesn't seem to care about it or even mention it. I think being in California it's harder since the tendancy is towards more of a liberal approach to even faith. God is God and his laws are clearly set in His word. We can't avoid or glass over the truth and unfortunately in these times, we are doing that....

And this is why, I am starting to see, a trend, that we, even christians are not happy with leadership anywhere......now, it is affecting the church.....
while, we are to be on guard against being deceived by our leaders, we need to also be on guard that we are not deceived by our own hearts.....

our own hearts, that war against coming under someone who doesn't exactly think the same way we do......it happens all the time, that God appoints people like that, to test our obedience in coming under authority........
that is all I was challenging you about.....and me, about........
cause, hey, frankly, I have questions in my own church.....and, my father is the pastor......:noidea
and, my brother is looking like he will be the next pastor......
and they are both very Godly men----- :):

[joy4Him2day]

Questions:

when does laity get to question leadership? what does scripture instruct about rebuking a Pastor? who does it? what are the guidelines?
what is the purpose of the eldership?
how do we guard against being taught untruths?
when do we leave a church?
when do we stay?
lots of questions......
any answers?
another thread got my mind to wandering......
is leadership the same as authority?
We live in a society with great abuse of authority, what does God really say about those He gives a leadership role?

address any of the above questions: :ear

[Mommy2KandM]

Mommy2KM:

the verse that you quoted about going to a brother in private:

l. is a Pastor not preaching what a parishoner wishes him to preach, a sin?

2. is a Pastor answerable to the parishener for his sermon topics? or to God?




I agree with you Joy on both issues. I do not think it is a sin, and I do think the pastor is answerable to God on his sermon topics, not his parishioners. And I did have hesitation with posting that verse because I did not want to give the impression that I thought or knew the pastor is wrong or sinning in his teaching if he is being biblical. Which as you have pointed out he is not being accused of false teaching.. just not teaching on certain topics.

My hope in that verse was this.. that if the manner is handled in the way it is outlined in Mathew, other things can happen. Brothers and sisters in Christ can communicate with each other and God can use that communication to bring correction or understanding. Perhaps after a personal conversation with a pastor a parishioner may better understand what God has laid on a pastors heart, or the reasonings behind things being done a certain way at this time. So step 2 and 3 in that verse may never come into play after heartfelt conversations between the two.

Never the less the process in which we are to confront each other give lots of opportunities for God to use people to teach us and either confirm to us we are in His will on an issue or we are not at the moment.

[RobinB]

I know what thread you mean and you have me wondering as well. . . .. ..

[JustGodsChild]

I found a good subject on it while surfing the internet. It talks about listening to and teaching sound doctrine. Here is an excerpt from it:

John further adds in, 2John 1:10, "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him." Fundamental churches will not cooperate with other groups that add to, water down, or pervert the Gospel. Our unwillingness not to cooperate is not because we are harsh unloving separatist, but rather because we realize we must obey God no matter what the cost. Unfortunately, mislead nonfundamental groups see our lack of participation with them as non loving. These folks need to be reminded of 1Cor. 13:6 "love does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth." Paul's words are also appropriate concerning this issue, Eph. 4:14 & 15 "that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ.

Here is the link to the whole article: http://www.wolfeborobible.com/fundamental.html

I think I agree with Jenny on this one, just my 02. cents. I would not attend a church that is not going by the word of God. Isn't that what a lot of people have advised when they asked about looking for a new church? Find one that has sound doctrines? I don't see how this is any different. Maybe I missing something here.

[Mommy2KandM]

:hug Joy Thanks--- It might have been handled in the wrong way by both me and the pastor but at least it has been addressed. I think it's hard to be so bold to personally do it since you set up yourself for persecution. I guess I'm not THAT bold...lol But I think the Lord would rather have us HOT or cold and my church has been way too lukewarm with lukewarm (meaningless) messages...


I really think you should not have done this anonymously. I think that takes any "boldness" out of it. If you felt God asked you to do this then I think you should have been willing to place your name on those comments so the pastor could then come to you and talk about the issues you are having. If you feel God wanted you to do this.. then don't you think He would have also wanted you to give your name so you could continue the message He has for this pastor??? It is hard to work as the body of Christ when we don't even know what part of the body is hitting us over the head.

You wrote a note asking the pastor to be BOLD and stand firm and be willing to suffer persecution for his sermons. Yet... you yourself have just admitted that you are not willing to suffer "persecution" for approaching a fellow Christian. If you are not willing to even suffer persecution from a brother in Christ then how can you ask your pastor to suffer persecution from Christians and non Christians alike?

I hope you pray on this issue.. and don't just write it off. Please be open if the Lord nudges you to approach this pastor and let him know you were the one who wrote the note and talk with him about it. Communicate with him. We are all on the same team.... he is your brother in Christ.

[JustGodsChild]

[QUOTE=Mommy2KandM]

You wrote a note asking the pastor to be BOLD and stand firm and be willing to suffer persecution for his sermons. Yet... you yourself have just admitted that you are not willing to suffer "persecution" for approaching a fellow Christian. If you are not willing to even suffer persecution from a brother in Christ then how can you ask your pastor to suffer persecution from Christians and non Christians alike?
[QUOTE]

I agree with you on this statement Kristina! :thumb I guess I was missing something, I thought people were criticizing her for bringing the subject up, not the way she was going about it.

[Mommy2KandM]

:heh



I need more pennies for other threads....KRISTINA give me some of your pennies...

NO! :heh what will I use in the candy machine then! :heh

[Mommy2KandM]

I found a good subject on it while surfing the internet. It talks about listening to and teaching sound doctrine. Here is an excerpt from it:

John further adds in, 2John 1:10, "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him." Fundamental churches will not cooperate with other groups that add to, water down, or pervert the Gospel. Our unwillingness not to cooperate is not because we are harsh unloving separatist, but rather because we realize we must obey God no matter what the cost. Unfortunately, mislead nonfundamental groups see our lack of participation with them as non loving. These folks need to be reminded of 1Cor. 13:6 "love does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth." Paul's words are also appropriate concerning this issue, Eph. 4:14 & 15 "that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ.

Here is the link to the whole article: http://www.wolfeborobible.com/fundamental.html

I think I agree with Jenny on this one, just my 02. cents. I would not attend a church that is not going by the word of God. Isn't that what a lot of people have advised when they asked about looking for a new church? Find one that has sound doctrines? I don't see how this is any different. Maybe I missing something here.

Piper, I agree if things are being taught that are in error biblically. I didn't see that was the problem though. This pastor is not being accused of being unbiblical in his teachings or a false teacher. It is that he is not teaching on all the topics a parishioner would like to hear taught. I don't know that that is error. There are so many things that can be taught in the bible.. there is no way a pastor, even a biblical can touch on them all, ever, probably.

[Becky]

I think she did the right thing. The offering plate is used for annonymous or signed notes. Doing it annonymously and what she requested is not out of line.

What bothers me is some of the posts I'm reading in this thread. We are not under leadership of our Pastors. He guides us but we are not to look to one man.

Now I see two things happening:
1. People leaving because of silly things happening in their church. I call these people church hoppers.

and
2. People who see a true problem in their church and are trying to help.

The Pastor did not do his job and announced the message to the whole church. That tells me she did the right thing and God was using her to show how her pastor has drifted away from truth.

[JustGodsChild]

I think she did the right thing. The offering plate is used for annonymous or signed notes. Doing it annonymously and what she requested is not out of line.

What bothers me is some of the posts I'm reading in this thread. We are not under leadership of our Pastors. He guides us but we are not to look to one man.

Now I see two things happening:
1. People leaving because of silly things happening in their church. I call these people church hoppers.

and
2. People who see a true problem in their church and are trying to help.

The Pastor did not do his job and announced the message to the whole church. That tells me she did the right thing and God was using her to show how her pastor has drifted away from truth.

Bravo Becky!! :clap :clap :clap
I would hope that if i had a problem with my church's teaching, I would be able to come to my pastor and talk to him about it either via a note or in person.

[Becky]

Authority can be abused by anyone. A pastor should guide the people of the congregation but in no way abuse the authority. People should be able to approach him face to face or annonymously without fear of being rebuked.

[Charity4Ever]

Jenny:

I'm glad you left that message anonymous. The way he reacted, I would be very concerned that the pastor or someone would do something very unsafe for you, your property, or your family. They probably have your address after all, no?

Personally, I think the Pastor teaching only on warm, fuzzy, vague spiritual-but-not-Christian, seeker-friendly subjects IS error and should be addressed. Not only for your growth, but for the health of the Church. Baby Christians who are not strong enough to eat bad doctrine and not know it. I can imagine that pastorship is a difficult job, especially now. The good, solid Christians in the congregation need to respect him, need to give him the authority and leadership, but they also need to help him, to speak through the Holy Spirit to him. Sometimes the Holy Spirit exhorts through others.

[dman]

I know this it is time to leave a church when after you have prayed over an issue it teaches and brought up the matter and there is no Resolution then it is time to leave because your disagreement will bring division in the church is far better to walk away after you have done all you can praying and bring the issue forward..

leader Ship is much missunderstood in the Church Jesus is the head its Lead by the Holy Spirit.

pastor is place to feed the sheep elders are set in leader ship role but of that of the building Not the Body Elders with the pastor hold the vision for the fellowship in the comunity If they dont they are in the Wrong place Because pastor has Gift of the spirit of a shepard A calling from God look at the make up of the Church like a governing body of the building elder are Like a pastors cabinet members They hold the same vision with the pastor for the fellowship.

full member are owner in the Building They have responsablity of the Ownership in the Builder and orginization and as such have voting rights On all matters of Budget and activity they also share the same vision.

Anyone From pastor to people who just atend regularly but choose not to be members who find issues With The visision over time Create Cracks in the foundation and after prayer and bring concerns forward if they are not satisfide Should leave the fellowship it can and does cause division in The building it is best that both part way so that all might stand strong or one fall from there own wrong or fault.

in any Case Jesus is the head of any Chruch of God and its lead by the Spirit in its Vision For the Comunity First then on to ministrys outside the comunity for the furtherance and out reach..

its always time to leave when differences in doctrines and views can not be settled one way or the other..

[Iceman]

I agree with Mommy2kandM.

[Becky]

One what point, Iceman?

[dman]

When its Done Right , member of the board of a church will be Pastor, elders, and helps ministry if the church has this ministry. This board will meet and decide on activity Budget and other issues for the building they bring what they pass to the memember for vote if there is a matter that the pastor feels strongly on in some cases he may save him self the right to veto certin things members vote against ...

also thing may work slightly differently depending on the bi-laws of the orginization..

[MercifullySaved]

I'll just say this much about it...if you're not comfortable going to your pastor and talking to him about the sermons he's giving, why are you going to that church at all? :confused It sounds to me like he's not teaching anything unbiblical...but he's just not hitting the issues you want him to preach on? You're so concerned about him preaching on major Biblical issues, but is it Biblical for you to do so anonymously? I don't think I can recall any verses which instruct us to confront anonymously, but correct me if I'm mistaken.
We have our instructions as to how to approach things like this laid out in Scripture, and to do it in a way contrary to Scripture doesn't make much sense to me. For all he knows, you could have been a first time guest!
I say stick with Scripture and confront others the way God tells us to do so. :thumb

[Iceman]

Yeah sorry, I wrote it on page 1 but it ended on page 3. New to this posting and stuff.
The Point on page 25, and now I realise I'm about 37 replies behind.

[Patty T]

Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Heb 13:17


"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28


My personal thought is that our Pastors/Leaders have a tremendous responsibility in shepherding the church of God. We are instructed in scripture pray for them. If there are issues that need attention they are to be brought out in the open with another witness (Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses - 1 Tim 5:19)

I'm not sure if this verse really fits the question, but it's the first one that came to mind.

I believe any issue we have with our Pastor should be confronted face-to-face and not with an anonymous note or phone call.

[Becky]

Merging threads.

The thing is that the note was not slipped under a door, it was in the offering plate. It was not an accusation but a suggestion. The Bible does not have a specific scripture reguarding this but common sense would say that everything she did was mature and non-aggressive.

[MercifullySaved]

Excellent post, Patty! :thumb

[Becky]

Me thinks you are all taking this too seriously.

[dman]

wow Moved mid post !!!!

[Becky]

Did ya feel like you were in a time warp? :B:

[dman]

yeah the rapture Ready Time warp ...

[Patty T]

What bothers me is some of the posts I'm reading in this thread. We are not under leadership of our Pastors. He guides us but we are not to look to one man.


Hi Becky,

What then does Hebrews 13:17 mean to you if we are not under the leadership of Pastors?

Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.


Thanks,

Patty

[Becky]

I don't see anything about pastors in that verse. :confused

I'm sorry but I don't see anything that she did that was Biblically wrong. A request is not a big deal. Her pastor turned it into a big deal.

[Iceman]

Obviously making an appointmeht with the Pastor on the matter was a big deal.

[Becky]

Putting a note in an offering plate has always been a form of communication in churches. Making an appointment for a suggestion is not necessary.

What I see here are some making a big deal out of nothing and not seeing the severety in what the Pastor did.

[Iceman]

...form of communication hmm, ok. But there is also another form...after the service, "Hi Pastor have you got a moment..."

[Jenny]

wow i went away for a while and saw the activity on this-- I was surprised myself on how this went at church. I honestly didn't see it as a "big deal" and was just making a suggestion and curious as to why they were not preaching on anything very specifically. So, I was shocked at how the pastor reacted. He hasn't been there that long and to me, I felt he was a little egotiscal and always trying to get laughs in his messages yet every week I'd leave and wonder really what his message really was saying (i.e., vague spiritual nothingness messages) Maybe I handled it wrong but I honestly didn't see that this would go so far and he would have brought it up during a sermon and hammer the person so badly. Frankly, I'm happy now I was anonymous because seriously I think I would have been personally ostrasized or rebuked for something I felt in the Holy Spirit to bring up. For better or worse, I'm sure it's gonna cause a change in the church and I will be praying that it will be for the better and cause great things to happen!

[MercifullySaved]

Putting a note in an offering plate has always been a form of communication in churches. Making an appointment for a suggestion is not necessary.



The only problem is, if everyone only gave anonymous recommendations in the offering plate, how is the pastor to know that it's not just one person doing the same thing repeatedly?

[TonyLee]

Ok I just wanted to comment on this:



Who cares if it turns people off? What about what God says? It shouldn't matter what a person's opinion is, if you are teaching exactly what the Bible says. :doh


Here is something that turned people off. Jesus Himself told it like it was, and they didn't like it, but He did not change His message to tickle their ears.

John 6:60-66

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Mommy2KandM]

I don't understand why these two threads were merged? I imagine Joy started a separate thread so it could be a general question dealing with how we are to address issues we face in the church and how we are instructed biblically to handle them. She probably started a separate thread so it could stay general.. not just be about Jenny and her pastor. :confused

If our pastors are not leadership to us then what are they? Why are they held to a higher standard when it comes to countability with God.

Jam 3:1 Let not many {of you} become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

[Becky]

But that's just it. It was ONE note.

You are all making too big a deal with this and igoring what the pastor did. I think if she had approached the pastor after hearing what he did, she would have been publically humiliated. All for just a suggestion.

:tsk

[Iceman]

No hear-say please.

[MercifullySaved]

But that's just it. It was ONE note.

You are all making too big a deal with this and igoring what the pastor did. I think if she had approached the pastor after hearing what he did, she would have been publically humiliated. All for just a suggestion.

:tsk

You're missing the point, Becky. Yes, it was only one note. But if EVERYONE communicated like this, there would be no way for the pastor to know if it's just a couple individuals, or if every note is written by a separate person.
No, the pastor should not have given a "hellfire & brimstone" sermon in response to the note, but I do believe that he should have at least addressed the congregation and given his opinion - in a loving manner, rather than the manner he apparently chose - on the unbiblical nature of confronting (at least he apparently FELT confronted) someone anonymously.

[Becky]

I don't understand why these two threads were merged? I imagine Joy started a separate thread so it could be a general question dealing with how we are to address issues we face in the church and how we are instructed biblically to handle them. She probably started a separate thread so it could stay general.. not just be about Jenny and her pastor. :confused

If our pastors are not leadership to us then what are they? Why are they held to a higher standard when it comes to countability with God.The threads were merged because Joy made her points in both threads. They are one and the same.

You're missing the point, Becky. Yes, it was only one note. But if EVERYONE communicated like this, there would be no way for the pastor to know if it's just a couple individuals, or if every note is written by a separate person.
No, the pastor should not have given a "hellfire & brimstone" sermon in response to the note, but I do believe that he should have at least addressed the congregation and given his opinion - in a loving manner, rather than the manner he apparently chose - on the unbiblical nature of confronting (at least he apparently FELT confronted) someone anonymously.I didn't miss the point. Notes are not common but we all know it is there if we need to do so. What she did was fine.

[Mommy2KandM]

But that's just it. It was ONE note.

You are all making too big a deal with this and igoring what the pastor did. I think if she had approached the pastor after hearing what he did, she would have been publically humiliated. All for just a suggestion.

:tsk

First I don't know what the note said word for word. I DO know that it is in our human nature to often write things in a more curt or non-Jesus like manner when we don't have to attach our names to them. So knowing what it said word for word would help me see more clearly what took place. Second we don't know what the pastor actually said at the sermon today or for how long he said it. Often when we feel on the hot plate as I am sure Jenny did this am when her note was brought up we can see things different than they really are. So until I can hear or read word for word what the pastor said today I can't make a judgment if he was wrong or not.

This post was on Jenny's note. Maybe she should start a thread on "How do you think my pastor handled this situation?" That is not what the post was about from my view point. But... No, I don't think he handled it correctly if he did indeed go on and on about in an aggressive manner like has been presented. I can't know that though unless I heard it, because there is a good possibility that Jenny's emotions on the matter tweaked what she heard and how it was said. It is just part of our human side.

I believe I even stated I would pray that God would convict him if he handled it improperly and heal his heart and show him how to better handle it.

[Iceman]

Mecifullysaved...good point. But we might have to agree to disagree with Becky.

[Jenny]

well it wasn't meant to be attacking the church like i said. I don't remember how i worded it exactly but it wasn't aggressive or confrontational. It was just meant as a suggestion. But to the best of my memory it was something like this:

I would like to see more sermons on topics like Gay Marriage, Abortion and Bible Prophecy/Rapture. I feel that the subjects are more "politically correct" and not getting to the real issues.

It was something like that- But it was just a suggestion and I also slipped money for tsunami relief that week with my check and my name/address on it so they might be able to connect my handwriting with it.. I don't know but I still don't understand how this has become a big deal at my church and now here..lol I don't want other posters or lurkers to be afraid to address these issues in their church b/c of this. I wasn't sure the proper "procedure" to address this but I thought an innocent suggestion wouldn't be taken as a major issue. But perhaps my pastor was convicted and that is why he reacted in the manner he did. Quite often when people are convicted they respond with rebuke and in the way he responded....

[Jenny]

:thumb Thanks Becky for your support and understanding though...

[MercifullySaved]

I didn't miss the point. Notes are not common but we all know it is there if we need to do so. What she did was fine.

So if it's fine for her, then it's fine for anyone and everyone to write their pastor anonymously, criticizing him for being politically correct and soft? Again, if it's fine for one person to do it, then it should be fine for everyone to do it. But it's not. If a pastor got 15 anonymous confrontational notes per week (and yes, telling a pastor that he's watering his message down IS confrontational), how could he be sure that it wasn't just one person, week after week? I realize that this is reductio ad absurdum, but I think it demonstrates my point...there's a reason that we're told to confront in a certain manner. If there's a problem, we're told to confront a person in the presence of others. I think that's completely applicable in this situation. If it's really a problem, then there should be others who notice the same thing, and can issue the same complaint. As you know, I'm training for the ministry right now. I would hope that, should the Lord lead me into a leadership position such as being a pastor, my future congregants would feel comfortable approaching me personally if they have a problem with my messages. If someone is the only one who has a problem with the sermons, it's probably just time to find a new church.

[dman]

Submit to your leaders Who is Your leaders who is it we are honestly submiting too ???

Jesus is who We are submiting too and The Spirit is sent as our comforter to watch over your soul and lead.

The pastor is a teacher (preacher of the word) Submiting to Jesus with the Holy spirit in the lead as we are he has a gift of the Spirit that puts him in a high accountablity to them both to teach us up in the right way..

If we are going to the church we should obey the teaching of the pastor how ever if there is disagreement we should pray over it bring the issue forwad if there is no sloution to boths satifaction we should leave and not cause division.

here is another exsample of submiting and The only case where one is asked to submit to a man.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

how ever it does not say wives submit to your husband as you submit unto the leaders of your church, it says submit as unto the Lord ..

next verse

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Who is the Head of the Church ???? Christ !!!!

What is it that leads and convicts us ??? The Holy Spirit !!!

here in the verse

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

The key word is Obey Not submit How ever we can never do this if we are in disagreement some how there will always be some divide and this leads to cracks in the foundation and rebellion would be difcult to obey and sumit to the teaching of one you disagree with ..

Not the word is obey is used in scripture as well toward childern they are to obey there parents. FOr the same reasons pretty much given in hebrew. When Childern today get in big disagreement with parents in this world they have the right of Emancipation undercertin circumstance of the law and in some way when they are older and feel that much discord it can be best it causes division in the whole home...

[Iceman]

Praise the Lord Jenny, like this forum say's we're not at all attacking you, on the contrary we are putting forward like you our suggestions and our thoughts. You say that the Holy Spirit moved you to do it...who am I to argue with that. In the end I pray that the utilmate goal in here is to equip each other with helpful Godly methods that have worked for each of in the past. We all draw off of others expericences in God, as they do from us that their victories in those situations may become ours and or yours. In other words we help each other press toward the mark..Phil 4:14
God is indeed Great...Praise Jesus.

[dman]

well I don't disagree with what she did or that the holy spirit Lead her in any way bt The holy spirit always has lead me to speak outwardly .
we are to be bold in the Spirit , Not sure how bold an anon note is More bold then some I guess But how the spirit was leading to get the message across i'm not so sure.

either way what done is done and something has been learned on both sides ...

[Werner]

There are several things wrong here. :doh

1. He could have chosen to just ignore the anonymous suggestion.

Even if the person makes the same suggestions every week, the option to ignore anonymous input is always there. No need to get angry and rally against anyone daring to make suggestions anonymously. Any anonymous suggestions though should be leading him to prayer for guidance from God.

2. Getting angry is a no-no.

Those who's job it is to feed the flock need to take care that they aren't lording over the flock. His response to the anonymous suggestion makes me wonder why he is in a leadership position at all. He doesn't sound like someone who took it to heart but rather hardened his heart. He should have tried harder to reach out to his congregation and encourage them to meet with him to discuss any issues they may have or topics they wished addressed instead of attacking the anonymous suggestion giver. Who is going to want to bring up any issues to him now?

3. We come together for fellowship to fellowship.

To the best of our abilities we should be seeking to meet the needs of all our brothers and sisters when we get together for fellowship. The focus should be on God and His Word. If a congregation is going through God's Word and teaching out of it then all the social issues we deal with today will be hit somewhere along the line and there shouldn't be a need for sermons on specific social issues. IMHO.

4. Prophecy shouldn't be a taboo subject.

Simply amazing. So much of God's Word is either prophecy itself or related to it that ignoring it on any level just doesn't make sense. Not teaching about certain aspects of God's Word (like the Rapture for example) because it's a hot topic that people disagree on is foolish IMHO. For that very reason it should be addressed and explained. There is no excuse for leaving brothers and sisters in Christ who are new to the faith or new to the study of God's Word to just wallow around in the uncertainty of what people think God's Word says rather than showing them what the Word does and does not say about certain topics.

5. God doesn't just test the congregation, sometimes He tests elders also.

And this would be one of those times the leader failed. I read some posts where people may have been suggesting that the Holy Spirit was testing Jenny perhaps, but what about the pastor? Such a simple thing a note is, yet the effect it had on the leadership of her Church is amazing.


In all of this though I have little doubt that God had His hands in it. In one move the weaknesses and short-comings of the leadership of her Church was thrust out there for the whole congregation to see, without any direct repercussions to Jenny herself from the church leadership other than hot words aimed at whomever. It would be interesting to see how things continue to unfold because I doubt it's truly over and done with. Even a little rock thrown from the top of a hill can end up an avalanche...

You and your church (leadership and congregation) are in my prayers Jenny.

Maranatha! :dancing

John

[Jenny]

John:

Exactly which is why I'm surprised at what an avalanche I created with filling out the comments section of the attendence slip. I only was doing what I felt prompted to do for months and months. It wasn't a lst minute thing.... I thought about it for awhile but finally gave in... Actually he didn't even mention bible prophecy just the "social issues" which I hate how he worded that--- ugh.... but I agree w/what you said-

[dman]

well Werner inpart I tend to agree with you how ever there are other factors here too.

First This pastor is leaveing in two weeks he is leaveing , makes me wonder if maybe his mind and heart is not as firmly placed as it once was and who knows how long this was before he gave notice..

There was Frustration on Jenny's part which lead to the note and it could have been prayed about it could have been ignored since it was anon any how . Maybe and who can really speak on the pastors part but maybe there is some frustration on his part too and pressures from within with the elders and board as well as outside issues Clouding his vision as well. now we have a situation where The note in his clouded view allow an excuse release some steam him self unfortunatly all over the whole Body The note was anon had no idea who to confront with it...

Good exsample a few Small cracks in the foundation or divisions can tear up a whole group quickly ..
The pastor is the Person with the Vision and calling from God for the church and it community . This pastors vision has shifted he is leaveing what every the reason Jenny's agreement in the Vision is Shifted from the church as she is feeling more convicted toward soicial issues That she feels should be taught spoke on.

Both issue need to be dealt with in the correct manor The pastor has given his notice he wil be going in time a new pastor will be in comeing or adopted from the group with the vision and calling for the Body and the community this may solve jenny's problem too since a new pastor may feel the same as her about soicial issues ..

perhaps Jenny got her signals crossed a bit maybe the srpirit was showing her where the Church might be heading in some of there teaching in the future..

maybe it was prophcey to edify for the whole body or maybe warning to others as this might cause disagrement with other in the group ...

Might have been met to speak out in the group through her dureing the service last week. How ever many churches dont teach the gift of prophcey they dont understand how it works or that it even does ..

hey and look now I am seeing Jenny has felt this for months from the spirit was maybe the holy spirit Giving her a vision that Change was coming to the church in the form of a change in ministers even maybe before he knew him self ???

[dman]

Well Not sure if I am getting anything across in my post But it appears that I have got my wife's attention on this matter.

She has just passed me what looks to be a make shift collection plate in it a note

"Please Stop you are making me crazy You are talking out loud while you type you are giving lesson to your monitor it can't hear you , Your hands are flying and moving everywhere while you are trying to type.

I think you may have a point here in what you are saying but please try to limit it to the sound of typing if you could, Just so you know I myself would never pass a concern or idea to the pastor in the form of a anon note as I am now feeling the conviction of how it might not be the thing to do
Thank you "

Hmmm Praise God

[StinkerBell]

Exactly which is why I'm surprised at what an avalanche I created with filling out the comments section of the attendence slip

This is why I didnt see this as an issue from Jenny (above quote).

We have those comment cards too and are encouraged to pass on notes if need be, and we are not required to sign them...really no area at the bottom to indicate a name...

It is interesting though....Seeing how everyone is responding opens my eyes in how truly different church's do a service (our how the generally conduct daily business).

Hey Kristina..I found more pennies! (its amazing what lives under the couch cushions)

[AnyDayNow]

...I only was doing what I felt prompted to do for months and months. It wasn't a lst minute thing...

I just came back here after a lengthy absence (and "re-finding" the thread, thanks to Becky! :B: :heh ). Your Intent was just fine, Jenny. We NEED more boldness from Believers in these last days. I will look at the heart (intent) first, then I'll question methods. Which brings about a question which may not have been asked yet. If you hadn't done what you had done, would ANYONE in the church ever brought it up? It needed to be, IMO. :nod

[BHiles]

There are several things wrong here. :doh

1. He could have chosen to just ignore the anonymous suggestion.

Even if the person makes the same suggestions every week, the option to ignore anonymous input is always there. No need to get angry and rally against anyone daring to make suggestions anonymously. Any anonymous suggestions though should be leading him to prayer for guidance from God.

2. Getting angry is a no-no.

Those who's job it is to feed the flock need to take care that they aren't lording over the flock. His response to the anonymous suggestion makes me wonder why he is in a leadership position at all. He doesn't sound like someone who took it to heart but rather hardened his heart. He should have tried harder to reach out to his congregation and encourage them to meet with him to discuss any issues they may have or topics they wished addressed instead of attacking the anonymous suggestion giver. Who is going to want to bring up any issues to him now?

3. We come together for fellowship to fellowship.

To the best of our abilities we should be seeking to meet the needs of all our brothers and sisters when we get together for fellowship. The focus should be on God and His Word. If a congregation is going through God's Word and teaching out of it then all the social issues we deal with today will be hit somewhere along the line and there shouldn't be a need for sermons on specific social issues. IMHO.

4. Prophecy shouldn't be a taboo subject.

Simply amazing. So much of God's Word is either prophecy itself or related to it that ignoring it on any level just doesn't make sense. Not teaching about certain aspects of God's Word (like the Rapture for example) because it's a hot topic that people disagree on is foolish IMHO. For that very reason it should be addressed and explained. There is no excuse for leaving brothers and sisters in Christ who are new to the faith or new to the study of God's Word to just wallow around in the uncertainty of what people think God's Word says rather than showing them what the Word does and does not say about certain topics.

5. God doesn't just test the congregation, sometimes He tests elders also.

And this would be one of those times the leader failed. I read some posts where people may have been suggesting that the Holy Spirit was testing Jenny perhaps, but what about the pastor? Such a simple thing a note is, yet the effect it had on the leadership of her Church is amazing.


In all of this though I have little doubt that God had His hands in it. In one move the weaknesses and short-comings of the leadership of her Church was thrust out there for the whole congregation to see, without any direct repercussions to Jenny herself from the church leadership other than hot words aimed at whomever. It would be interesting to see how things continue to unfold because I doubt it's truly over and done with. Even a little rock thrown from the top of a hill can end up an avalanche...

You and your church (leadership and congregation) are in my prayers Jenny.

Maranatha! :dancing

John

Very good points John. Also along the same lines I would also like to add that it is important that beleivers not allow a spirit of rebellion to come into our lives. Even rebelling against wrong will allow ourselves a wrong means to perhaps a right end but will cause problems for us later. Rebellion is a spirit that was unleashed on this country in droves during the 60's and has permeated the church. I have seen many people rebel against wrong and theat same spirit was with them when they later used it to rebel against right. Guard your heart.

[StinkerBell]

Ok I have a question....This maybe should be in another thread...but this thread got me to thinking....

The question I am posing to myself is, do I follow my Pastor or do I follow Jesus?

Personally I do not agree 100% percent with my Pastor.....BUT I respect my Pastor and I believe I know where his heart is. My Pastor is there to help educate me.....I know I am rambling here...but I follow Jesus (like I believe we all her do)....

[BHiles]

Ok I have a question....This maybe should be in another thread...but this thread got me to thinking....

The question I am posing to myself is, do I follow my Pastor or do I follow Jesus?

Personally I do not agree 100% percent with my Pastor.....BUT I respect my Pastor and I believe I know where his heart is.

God has place the pastor as one point of spiritual authority in your life. You must go to him for advice and counsel as you should other leadership. You should pray for him that God leads him. But ultimately you must find God's will in your life. BTW in a good church, a decision rarely if ever conflicts with the pastor. It can but it happens far fewer times less than many would like to believe. Most of the time we want what we want and we could care less about the pastor's advice and define a "special leading from the Lord".

Many bad decision begin with the phrase "I feel led".:nod

[StinkerBell]

But we do have to admit...there are some bad Pastors out there in the world.....

[dman]

I can't say how all Churches Work at all how ever from the view point of the church I have been part to, Member of, Elder in and even co founder of , The Comment card as the Visiters card are generally met for them who do not regularly attend service or may be there first time there.

in general if your member or not But regularlly Go to the church it would be concidered more of a home or home church others there would be more like family to you Comment cards are not usually a nessary. member of the same family tend to Comunicate fairly comfortablly together. I have found over the years even many visiters don't use them if they felt good about the service they will hang around a bit meet some of the members and the pastor shake hand and discuss different things.

in any case the key is to welcome all who Come with open arms and make them feel welcome and notice let them know there present is welcome .only two churches I have ever been part of even had comment or vistor cards because they were not felt to be nessary as every member of the ministry usually has greeted everyone new and regular learned there name where they were from how they heard about of dicovered our church so on, even the larger church I was part of that was 3000 and more in atendance many sunday services..

as well The Body of members is well Trained taught in how welcome all never let any feel left out or like they are strangers or that the group was made of of just small close tightly knit cliches . not in such a way as lording over But there are certian exspectation of all if we are to be an exsample and a light that over takes the darkness of this world..

yes There are actually membership classes in many or most churches that are required attending to become and remain a member you must know what you are becomeing a member of and what the vision and statment of faith of the Ministry is what the exspectation of a members is .

we are to be in accord in the church and in the service This is where God will be he will never be found in discord, disagrement or confusion .

I don't think it's so much about the way churches conduct business daily But more about how we should conduct or walk daily That we learn These are all partof the responcablities of the ministry of the church they will be held accountable for what they teach and preach to the Body not only by the member but by the Lord and the Holy spirit Which called them to that place..

Its ok to suggest things you feel you might like to see the pastor speak on all are open to this , how ever he can not Teach or preach on a subject that he is not lead to through the holy spirit to do and tell me if he did would it be a message of or from the Lord or a message of the Man (pastor) hegets his enlightenment wisdom and knowlege and conviction from the same source as the rest of us who are saved ...

only he is responcable to answer for that which he is lead to preach and teach us and will have to answer for it in the end if he don't . when it says to obey your leaders and submit it is saying to submit to there training and teaching not to the man but the Holy spirit which leads them and there vision ...

yeah im saying some of these things twice some points are important in there meaning , its a very different submission then our submission to the Lord and a different from the submission of a wife to her husband .

I can't say I agree with this pastor action and what he did at all, how ever imagine he frustration and upset in this pastors spirit in his last few weeks of service to this church to get get an anon note from someone who sounds like one who regularly attends maybe a member and dicover there discord, division in his church over his teaching not brought up to him in a direct manor...

My first thought is that Jenny was given prophcey for the Church about maybe change coming These to are from the holy spirit and can convict you if not spoken no different then the conviction of being out of his will or that of sin it wells up inside and pokes you continually ...

[cinlynn]

If I were Jenny.. I would print this whole thread out, and pass it along to my pastor.. and then.. I would allow the HS to speak to his heart. ;):

[savedandhappy1]

I believe the bible says that if we have something against someone we are to go to them, if that doesn't work we are to take someone with us, and if that doesn't work go to the pastor/elders (since the pastor is part of this).

I see nothing wrong with telling the pastor your concerns about the sermons, but I don't agree with a note that is not signed. I don't remember anywhere in the bible when things were done in secret. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

To be upset and say you were slammed when you didn't sign the note is a reach isn't it? The pastor didn't know who he was talking to so to say you were slammed, well I can't get there from here, sorry.

Just my 2 cents.

Love in Christ,
Kathy

[toddlemom]

I, too, read through almost all of the posts.

My thoughts are ...
The logic went something like this ... "I think Pastor needs to spend time on other topics. "

There's some conflict going on.

I think the logical next step would be to ask ourselves ... what does the Bible teach about conflict resolution ...

As others have pointed out, it IS spelled out in the Bible. Let everything be confirmed by two or three witnesses and we are supposed to GO and talk to teh brother.

Anonymity can be very damaging. Our church has just gone through fever and convulsions over a "ghost petition" claiming X number of members were fixing to leave because they didn't like the new pastor. It was not a petition at all, but one member keeping a tally sheet of attendance and who looked sour. (Sicne we were milking cows at the time, and tired all the time, our family looked like the seven dwarfs -- Sleepy, Grouchy, Dopey, etc.) So there is a possibility our name was added to this anonymous list. :mad (note to self ... must forgive the one keeping the tally sheet ... must forgive :frusty)

I think the larger question is not sermon topics but conflict resolution.

Our Sunday School class is going through a really convicting book, "Bait of Satan" by John Bevere, about how to handle offense and forgiveness in the church. Like I said ... it is VERY serious. A lot of meat in there.

I hope this all works out ... I think it's been an interesting topic.

YSIC
ann

[HeIsEnough]

But we do have to admit...there are some bad Pastors out there in the world.....

All of them have fallen short, the best ones would freely admit it. The difference being the place of authority, and those with the right to question it, and those who do not, and how they can go about it still, biblically.

Sadly, the 'protest' part of protestantism can and has led to many not listening to anybody, or at least only a few on a short list.

This type of thing has happened in my congregation. It was sad, and I lay no blame to the man in charge. He was a devoted disciple to the Lord, sheparding a flock of malcontents.

If I had to, I would vote with my feet, or confront face to face. Anything less, is much less.

[rtd2]

Ok I have a question....This maybe should be in another thread...but this thread got me to thinking....

The question I am posing to myself is, do I follow my Pastor or do I follow Jesus?

Personally I do not agree 100% percent with my Pastor.....BUT I respect my Pastor and I believe I know where his heart is. My Pastor is there to help educate me.....I know I am rambling here...but I follow Jesus (like I believe we all her do)....





Good ? ...I believe Yor view is correct The pastor is the Keeper of the sheep (us) so the pastor educates and from time to time advises us or consoles us , ect.......let me be a little my specific in my opinion.....the word teaches us that those HE (GOD) calls HE also qualifies!...DOESNT mean EVERY PASTOR is called I believe some are not Called of GOD but by MAN! I appreciate a persons dedication to go to college and seminaries ect. to gain usefull knowlwdge and I beleive Alot of these people are called By GOD but not ALL just because one graduates from bible college, ect doesnt make you CALLED!-QUALIFIED... some of the best Pastors/teachers and evangelist I heard have NO college or Formal training! just GOD leading and guiding them! Man I remeber as a child at camp meetings 100's would be saved and the Ministers then probally didnt graduate High school....didnt matter They were lead by the spirit and delivered the word.... I beleive ...if your pastor is in GODS will then you are correct in following his PASTORSHIP( is that a word?) teachings, advice ect. but as we all know the bible tells us to work out our OWN salvation! What i'm trying to say is nobody is going to agree with the pastor all the time but there comes a time when you may have to put faith in your pastor that his decisions come from much prayer its fine to have an occasional difference of opinion but the pastor is still the Leader of the sheep he has a responsibility to GOD as do all leadership. If one finds thereself contniually finding fault with there pastor/leadership then this is something that may need attention! I know I dont agree with EVERYTHING my Pastor teaches or the assistants for that matter But I beleive there hearts are in the right place and they are commited to speading GODS word! our differences are not significant...to be honest with you I know there are some but I cant even think of them.... If I felt different and had MAJOR differences that couldnt be resoleved I would find another church. If my pastor were to leave and take another church near the one I'm at I would pray about it and depending on Who GOD sent as our next pastor would make a Determination of Following him! I wouldnt just follow him!.... you never know but after 14 yrs. I doubt my pastor goes anywhere but Thats between him and GOD! I know his preaching/teaching only seem to get better ! in 14yrs. I dont think I 've heard him preach the same message twice! Although the last couple of services he has been getting a little L O N G winded! :heh but Icant complain..we have a scheduled starting time and we usualy get out around the same time but thats determined by the mvt. of the spirit and not the second hand on the CLOCK! :):

[Bethshaya]

That fact that he talked about it at length proves it really affected him and hopefully convicted him. They don't preach on social issues because it might offend people? Okay welcome to the world of Christianity. If he doesn't want to offend people he shouldn't be a Christian, period.

I think you are right..it convicted him.

But instead of leaving the pride at the doorstep and saying "You know, he's right", the pastor took offense and went on a tyraid because it "offended" him that he wasnt perfect.

Perhaps he, himself, has one of these "politically correct" viewpoints and doesnt want the congregation to know it.

He doesnt want to offend anyone, because that would lighten membership, meaning less money in his basket.

[Harley]

I'll admit I did not read all 113 posts. So if anyone addressed the issue of an anonymous note - I missed it.

I'll not address the issue of the pastor not preaching on subjects you'd like to hear... that's not my point.

That being said: I know many churches that pretty much ignore anonymous complaints... and stating that the pastor/church is too this, or not enough that, is a complaint.

I think anyone that attends a church has the right to voice an opinion and make suggestions. And yours may have been completely valid. But if I were leading a church, I'd just throw away any annonymous correspondence. Basically, life's too short and there are too many other issues to worry about anonymous notes.

It doesn't sound like the response was handled very either.

[Harley]

I think you are right..it convicted him.

But instead of leaving the pride at the doorstep and saying "You know, he's right", the pastor took offense and went on a tyraid because it "offended" him that he wasnt perfect.

Perhaps he, himself, has one of these "politically correct" viewpoints and doesnt want the congregation to know it.

He doesnt want to offend anyone, because that would lighten membership, meaning less money in his basket.

WOW - you really have this guy figured out don't you?

[Gary]

I've complained to pastors before too, not anonamously, but face to face. Not so much regarding the subject matter of sermons, but several issues ranging from the PC leanings of the church, and the discontent of several congregation members about overall church politics. His response was basically that he knew people were unhappy about various things and I was told by several other former members of that church that the pastor basically said "If you dont' like it, you know where the door is". Well, yes we did and we used it. I was highly disappointed in this man especially since I used to call him a friend. :(:

[Harley]

I've complained to pastors before too, not anonamously, but face to face. Not so much regarding the subject matter of sermons, but several issues ranging from the PC leanings of the church, and the discontent of several congregation members about overall church politics. His response was basically that he knew people were unhappy about various things and I was told by several other former members of that church that the pastor basically said "If you dont' like it, you know where the door is". Well, yes we did and we used it. I was highly disappointed in this man especially since I used to call him a friend. :(:
So why is he no longer a friend?

[ChopinFan]

Many bad decision begin with the phrase "I feel led".:nod

Yep, in pastoral circles it's called "led poisoning"

:lol

[JustGodsChild]

I was thinking about what I read here, maybe the Pastor was convicted by what Jenny wrote. Some pastors don't like to admit they have faults. Not all but some. Maybe it struck a nerve with this guy. Why do people generally lash out about something like that? Because something in their own heart is not right with God. I know it's true with me. How many people here have lashed out angrily to someone because they broached a subject that you yourself were convicted of but were not dealing with? My old pastor was great in saying stuff like, "I knew I couldn't preach on this subject if my heart wasn't right with God on it."

[Gary]

So why is he no longer a friend?

Those of us that "dared" leave the church were put pretty much incommunicado by the senior administration. I still have a few friends there, but Brian considered a personal slap in the face when we felt compelled to point out the shortfallings of the church administration, especially the politics and cliques that had formed over the preceding couple of years. Anybody that left the church, not just me, is basically ignored if we pass on the street etc. Last year, a friend from this church has a minor heart attack. We phoined the secretary and asked to be kept informed of his progress. We even visited his wife and asked to be kept up to date with Don's condition. Three weeks later we found out, by accident that he was home, mostly recovered and getting ready to go back to work.

I say "Was" a friend because the few occassions we have visited the church for Christmas Cantatas etc, many have came up and welcomed us, but the pastor chooses to remain distant. It was not my choice, but his.

[Harley]

Here is a few things to keep in mind:

In a pastor’s position it is very easy to spend all of your time trying to please the VDP's - the Very Draining People. If he is not careful, their demands suck up so much time and energy that little is left for positive engagement with VPP’s – the Very Potential People. This is not to say that pastors should not be concerned with people with problems, it’s just he can’t let them be his only concern.

Pastors also need to count the “Yes” votes. This is not to say that you do what is most pleasing, nor that you compromise the principles. It does mean that there will ALWAYS be people who don’t like the music, or the topics, or the carpet, or the money spent on this, or the money not spent on that… bottom line, lead the church like God put ya there and focus on the positive.

I don’t offer this to say that anyone here is a VDP or a constant complainer. I offer it only to serve as a reminder that there is always a lot of complaining, no group of people can be entirely content, and if that means some people’s complaints are overlooked – so be it. The pastor is not there to meet every need, nor address every complaint or suggestion from the flock.

[Gary]

Here is a few things to keep in mind:

In a pastor’s position it is very easy to spend all of your time trying to please the VDP's - the Very Draining People. If he is not careful, their demands suck up so much time and energy that little is left for positive engagement with VPP’s – the Very Potential People. This is not to say that pastors should not be concerned with people with problems, it’s just he can’t let them be his only concern.

Pastors also need to count the “Yes” votes. This is not to say that you do what is most pleasing, nor that you compromise the principles. It does mean that there will ALWAYS be people who don’t like the music, or the topics, or the carpet, or the money spent on this, or the money not spent on that… bottom line, lead the church like God put ya there and focus on the positive.

I don’t offer this to say that anyone here is a VDP or a constant complainer. I offer it only to serve as a reminder that there is always a lot of complaining, no group of people can be entirely content, and if that means some people’s complaints are overlooked – so be it. The pastor is not there to meet every need, nor address every complaint or suggestion from the flock.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a pastor should base his decisions on "majority rules" or preach his sermons by referendum. Other than preaching, a pastor's role is to serve, as Jesus told us to serve. He is to set the example for the congregation. By pointing fingers as in the OP, he is diminishing his role as shepherd and servant. There are always going to be people that require attention, but that is a far site different from a complainer. You're right in that some people aren't pleased by anything, so move on. By the same token, there are people that have genuine needs, specific and ongoing. There is nothing wrong with suggesting a topic for a sermon to a pastor.

In our case, an older gentleman offered to buy a new organ for the church as the old one was worn out. He was subsequently insulted publicly by the wife of one of the board members (who was never admonished by anybody because of WHO she was). This was not an isolated incident. When a person, or persons is elevated to a position above the pastor (as in Board of Administration) and the pastor doesn't have the spine to stand up to them, something is wrong. Now your church isn't a house of the Lord, it's a business.

[Chris4Christ]

I think anyone that attends a church has the right to voice an opinion and make suggestions. And yours may have been completely valid. But if I were leading a church, I'd just throw away any annonymous correspondence. Basically, life's too short and there are too many other issues to worry about anonymous notes.
Then it's probably a good thing that you're not leading a church. :sigh

Throwing away correspondence simply because it isn't signed?? :hrm It's the issues themselves that are addressed that are important and in need of consideration, not the signature or lack thereof on the form.

[Harley]

Those of us that "dared" leave the church were put pretty much incommunicado by the senior administration. I still have a few friends there, but Brian considered a personal slap in the face when we felt compelled to point out the shortfallings of the church administration, especially the politics and cliques that had formed over the preceding couple of years. Anybody that left the church, not just me, is basically ignored if we pass on the street etc. Last year, a friend from this church has a minor heart attack. We phoined the secretary and asked to be kept informed of his progress. We even visited his wife and asked to be kept up to date with Don's condition. Three weeks later we found out, by accident that he was home, mostly recovered and getting ready to go back to work.

I say "Was" a friend because the few occassions we have visited the church for Christmas Cantatas etc, many have came up and welcomed us, but the pastor chooses to remain distant. It was not my choice, but his.

This certainly is a shame.

[Harley]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a pastor should base his decisions on "majority rules" or preach his sermons by referendum. Other than preaching, a pastor's role is to serve, as Jesus told us to serve. He is to set the example for the congregation. By pointing fingers as in the OP, he is diminishing his role as shepherd and servant. There are always going to be people that require attention, but that is a far site different from a complainer. You're right in that some people aren't pleased by anything, so move on. By the same token, there are people that have genuine needs, specific and ongoing. There is nothing wrong with suggesting a topic for a sermon to a pastor.

In our case, an older gentleman offered to buy a new organ for the church as the old one was worn out. He was subsequently insulted publicly by the wife of one of the board members (who was never admonished by anybody because of WHO she was). This was not an isolated incident. When a person, or persons is elevated to a position above the pastor (as in Board of Administration) and the pastor doesn't have the spine to stand up to them, something is wrong. Now your church isn't a house of the Lord, it's a business.

I agree. I would not want to be a part of a church where people were treated differently due to "status."

[Harley]

Then it's probably a good thing that you're not leading a church. :sigh

Throwing away correspondence simply because it isn't signed?? :hrm It's the issues themselves that are addressed that are important and in need of consideration, not the signature or lack thereof on the form.
But if someone is not willing to sign their complaint... that speaks louder. Besides, if the issue is that significant, more than one objection will come forward.

[Werner]

But if someone is not willing to sign their complaint... that speaks louder. Besides, if the issue is that significant, more than one objection will come forward.
We don't know if anyone else has brought up these issues to him, perhaps they did to his face and got no further... We don't know. Consider also that he may have created an environment in the Church that discourages anyone from coming forward with issues.

Without being there it's all just speculation. :):

I will say though that the moment we start assigning values to people like VDP or VPP we have lost sight of people as part of our family and have fallen into just categorizing them and turning it into a business type model with things like "acceptable loss" (i.e. "my way or the highway" attitudes) which have no place within the Body of Believers.

IMHO. :):

If someone is not willing to sign their complaint we should search ourselves and figure out first if there is something we are doing to discourage open discourse...

Maranatha! :dancing

John

[SuzyJ27]

Jenny I believe you did the right thing.We must be able to tell our preachers when we think something is wrong.What your preacher said was totally wrong.The pastor at my church always ends on sermons by telling us we can come to him when we think something is wrong.Thats what makes a church grow.Bravo on what you did even if it was anonymous,that doesnt matter. :clap