Bible and its History

[star_tigress]

:doh I don't know if this belongs to the right forum so mods, please if you feel it's not, feel welcome to move it.

I am being asked about the Bible. How do we know that the Bible is completely intact, without anything added or removed from it? I don't know all the answers so I was trying to answer and realized that I did not really know about it. In fact, I asked the very same thing to my Deaf Ministry Leader when I was not saved almost ten years ago and she did not answer it. Only that it's God's Word and cannot be changed.

:confused I know the Holy Spirit were in those authors, but how do we know for sure?

What makes the Bible so pure, so clean considering what happened during the Dark Ages? (not my question, it's the person who is asking me.) It's all by human proxy. (Again, not my statement.)

I can't explain the HS to him because he's not saved.

Help? :confused

[Paul]

Those are tough questions. I’ll try to answer then as best I can.

How do we know that the Bible is completely intact, without anything added or removed from it? The manuscript evidence supports the idea that the Bible is intact without any editing.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date to the 3rd century BC, were found they predated the earliest manuscripts by about 1,000 years. Critics were sure they would find major differences in the text. They didn’t.

There are over 5000 New Testament manuscripts, about 24,000 fragments, and countless quotations from the Church Fathers. The variances are mainly found in spelling and grammar. No doctrines are affected at all.

So when you have so many manuscripts form different periods of time and different regions and they all agree that’s overwhelming evidence for an accurately preserved Bible.

I know the Holy Spirit were in those authors, but how do we know for sure?

We believe the Bible records the truth about God because it bears the mark of Divine authorship. The Bible was written by about 40 authors, over the period of about 1500 years in three languages. The authors were separated by time, distance and social class. Yet we have one unified message presented: Man is sinful and God is sending a Savior.

No one author tells the whole story. One writes a portion and anticipates that another will pick up the story. One prophet tells us there will be a seed of the woman, another tells us this seed will come from the nation of Israel, still another tells us He will be cut off for the sins of the people and so on.

To write about the life and mission of this Savior in advance is only possible if the Source is outside of history. To accurately describes the human condition and address our greatest problem – sin – makes the Bible relevant to every generation.

Skeptics say that these aren’t prophecies but the fact is that non-Christian rabbis both before and after the time of Christ identify them as such.

Then in the New Testament we see these prophecies fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ. And when we look to non-biblical history to confirm these events they always, despite being hostile sources, refer to a messianic aspect of Him.

The Talmud, despite having most references to Christ edited out in the 1600’s, tells us He performed sorcery (miracles) and was crucified during Passover. The Romans tell us that “a most mischievous superstition” broke out after He was crucified and that His followers worshiped Him as if He were “a God”.

Skeptics will say these are no proofs and argue that universally accepted historians should now no longer be accepted because they mention Jesus or because it isn’t even Jesus they’re talking about. They will offer evidence and the believer counters with his evidence and around and around we go.

To accurately judge the evidence one needs to forget about winning a debate and, with an honest, seeking heart, ask God to reveal Himself if He is real, read the Bible, read the evidence and see where it leads.

What makes the Bible so pure, so clean considering what happened during the Dark Ages? (not my question, it's the person who is asking me.) It's all by human proxy. (Again, not my statement.)At church last Sunday I heard about Raul Reis, who is a pastor of a Calvary Chapel. He grew up with an alcoholic father who abused him. When he was 9 Raul decided he wanted to kill him. He was always fighting and was so full of rage that when he went to Vietnam after he was done killing enemies he would kill animals because he just wanted to watch blood flow. One day he heard the gospel and Jesus changed his heart.

The Apostle Paul was conducting genocide on Christians until one day he meet Jesus and his heart was also changed.

My grandfather was mean, abusive and had been in an adulterous affair for over fifteen years until one day he meet Jesus and his heart was changed.

The Dark Ages were characterized by people who misused the Bible for their own wicked gains. Those people did not represent Christ or His teachings.

What makes the Bible pure and clean is its ability to introduce us to Jesus Christ who offers a solution to mankind’s worse problems – sin and death. Jesus can change a person’s heart.

[antitox]

If one tries to "prove" the integrity of Biblical writings to someone who is not born again, it can be an endless argument back and forth, even though the historical data and individual experience with God is undeniable. What God has provided is proof in each person. That is the inner witness of the Holy Spirit that says "yes" and "amen." The Lord is personal with this because it is a relationship directly with Him. Primarily, what convices the rest of the world of His existence is the testimony of our lives and the unexplainable miracles that occur in His name.
Yes, the Bible does have many authors versus one author in the case of the Mormons. They put all their faith in one guy who claimed to have it all.
But the Bible, though containing the imperfections of being penned through men, still weaves together perfectly because it is inspired by God Himself (2 Tim 3:16). This is something that man cannot possibly do in his knowledge or power; imperfect vessels record it with copyist errors, etc. , yet it's effect and content is flawless. Wow. Now that's how God's work gets through the old clay pot. It is doubtless proof of His divine nature and ability to supersede the natural effortlessly.

[Paul]

bump

[Joshua's Gen]

That's the finest bump I've ever seen.

One spick and span post Paul, keep 'em comin'. :thumb

(I remember reading the quotes about Jesus in Talmud in re: to passover and sorcery... do you know where the roman quotes could be located about the 'most mischievous superstition', or any related? If not, thanks anyhow, that was great anyway.)

[antsinmypants]

count me in too

[Paul]

That's the finest bump I've ever seen.

One spick and span post Paul, keep 'em comin'. :thumbYears of practice, my boy, years of practice.

(I remember reading the quotes about Jesus in Talmud in re: to passover and sorcery... do you know where the roman quotes could be located about the 'most mischievous superstition', or any related?

It's from Tacitus, Annals, book XV:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

EDIT: You can find more here: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html

[star_tigress]

Just letting you guys know I'm reading this. :D: Just haven't had time to try to apply it to my study. :twitch Also, Paul - it answered our questions. :thumb But I do have several questions.

My questions:

Are there historical evidence backing what you posted? I know there are, but I would like to see validity.

Also, what exactly is a Talmud? I know it's writings for Judaism, but what exactly? How does it fit in? I see you mentioned that it was edited to get rid of references of Jesus Christ. Why?

Sorry if I am asking questions like these, I'm a newbie in this area. :redface

Also, the person who were asking me questions is also reading this thread. He hasn't registered yet (due to it being down) but he's very interested in this as well.

[Paul]

Are there historical evidence backing what you posted? Historical evidence for what, the references to Jesus from secular history? If so you can find them here:

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html

and here:

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/historical_evid.html


Also, what exactly is a Talmud? I know it's writings for Judaism, but what exactly? How does it fit in? I see you mentioned that it was edited to get rid of references of Jesus Christ. Why?The Talmud is a collection of teaching and commentary from Jewish Rabbis. Many references to Jesus and Christianity were removed in the 16th century to avoid Christian persecution. The reason the references are important is because it is evidence from a hostile source.

Sorry if I am asking questions like these, I'm a newbie in this area. :redfaceIt's no problem at all. When people ask questions it gives me a chance to research things I normally might not study so I learn from it too.

Also, the person who were asking me questions is also reading this thread. He hasn't registered yet (due to it being down) but he's very interested in this as well.Registration should be back up next week sometime, I think.

[Paul]

Are there historical evidence backing what you posted?
Oh, I think you mean this:

The Talmud, despite having most references to Christ edited out in the 1600’s, tells us He performed sorcery (miracles) and was crucified during Passover.

“It has been taught: On the Eve of the Passover, they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went announcer went out in front of him, for forty days saying: ‘he is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray.’ Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.’ But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the Eve of the Passover.” (Sanhedrin 43a)

The Romans tell us that “a most mischievous superstition” broke out after He was crucified and that His followers worshiped Him as if He were “a God”.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.” (Tacitus, Annals, book XV)

Critics try to downplay or disqualify these references but if you go to
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html#articles

And scroll down to
“Discussions of extra-biblical references to Jesus”
You’ll find several articles which defend the references as legitimate.

[Dennis J. Reidy]

:doh I don't know if this belongs to the right forum so mods, please if you feel it's not, feel welcome to move it.

I am being asked about the Bible. How do we know that the Bible is completely intact, without anything added or removed from it? I don't know all the answers so I was trying to answer and realized that I did not really know about it. In fact, I asked the very same thing to my Deaf Ministry Leader when I was not saved almost ten years ago and she did not answer it. Only that it's God's Word and cannot be changed.

:confused I know the Holy Spirit were in those authors, but how do we know for sure?

What makes the Bible so pure, so clean considering what happened during the Dark Ages? (not my question, it's the person who is asking me.) It's all by human proxy. (Again, not my statement.)

I can't explain the HS to him because he's not saved.

Help? :confusedWe don't have all the inspired text. Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians is missing, and there are other parts of Scripture that are no longer available.

See 1 Corinthians 5:9: "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators."

If this is contained in Saint Paul's so-called first epistle to the Corinthians, that means there was a prior epistle.

And all of Saint Paul's epistles were inspired according to Saint Peter because he equates all Saint Paul's epistles with the term "the other scriptures."

See II Peter 3:15-16: "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

One of those epistles is the prior epistle mentioned in First Corinthians, and no one has that. Therefore, part of God's inspired word is missing.

Further, see James 4:5: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Nowhere else does Sacred Scripture contain such a passage, yet Saint James quotes from a passage and calls it Scripture. Therefore, there is something missing.