Out of context!!!

[Bone_Mender]

/rant on

So often I see this quote, "The body is the temple of the Lord" when dealing with everything from eating poorly to smoking to getting tattoos. It's a good argument, but only if we pick the word apart and stuff it into our own little box.

Folks it's about context!! Look at the verses before and after!!


1Cr 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Look at it...what is the focus here? It's talking about fornication! It's talking about laying with a harlot!

I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed, hammered, stabbed, burned, tortured, and mangled for stating this, but I don't care. I'm tired of seeing my brothers and sisters in Christ being raked over the coals for something that is a PERSONAL ISSUE!! Then having it labeled as sinful. You don't want a tatoo...good for you, but don't tell others they are sinning. You don't want to smoke...FANTASTIC! But don't tell me I'm a sinner because I do. It's an addictive drug that I got hooked on at an early age. I've prayed for the Lord to remove it...but He hasn't yet. Perhaps I just lack faith.... :rolleyes Anyway, that's all.

/rant off

[Danimus]

I do not intend to flame you but 2 things....

1) Are you suggesting that our bodies are only temples if we intend to sleep with a harlot? Seems to me that it's the fact that we should already know our bodies and that's Pauls point. Our bodies are temples all the time, not just when it suits us.

2) Why do you have a problem with your smoking if you feel so strongly that its not a sin?

YBIC

[Bone_Mender]

I don't have a problem with it being a sin...what I have a problem with is everyone else having a problem with it. I don't smoke on church grounds, but I have recently been told I could not teach a Sunday school class because I smoke! I attended a different church for 6 years prior to moving and joining a church that is closer....for 5 of those 6 years...I taught our Adult Sunday school class. Also, my former church had 10 times the membership. That's where I have a problem. Man is limiting me based on his own preconceptions. Did God not use the weakest, lowliest, usually worst candidates in the Bible for His glory? If God has a purpose for you and you are willing to follow, I do feel that other people should challenge that.

And no, I don't feel that the body is only a temple when we pick and choose...but many of the same people who throw that verse around (horribly out of context) usually have their own little pet sins. None of us are perfect, only forgiven. I sin daily...I fail, but I press on and try to do what is right in the eyes of my Lord and Savior.

Those same ones who trash their brothers and sisters in Christ usually have their own problems...kinda goes back to the speck in the eye vs. the beam.

Sorry if I came across as testy...I'm just a bit angry about the whole issue. No offense intended towards you. :hug

[Danimus]

None taken :):

[antsinmypants]

Bone,

I just want to point out something you may not have thought about.

Elsewhere it also says our bodies are the temple of the L-rd.. Say.. how about "destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days".. figurative of Y'shua's body-- and of the Temple being raised (more at restored and coming down with the New Jerusalem) 3 thousand years later.

The Talmud also speaks of how our body is a temple of G-d, and that we are to take special care of our bodies because of that. We are to walk in His ways and His light, and not do anything that will destroy it. (eat the right food, don't get stuck on addictive habits, follow His commands)

Once the Temple was destroyed, this was understood a little more fully by our unsaved brothers and sisters of Israel. They say "since the temple is no more, we must bring the sacrifice of praise by our heart, our lips and our hands (deeds)." This was also understood by the early believers before the Temple was destroyed.

This carries on out to not doing anything destructive to ourselves (addictive habits or purposely harming..), taking care of our bodies (washing ourselves, exercise, honest day's work)..

The whole theme of the Bible is how G-d relates to us, how He sends His Son to us, and how He will indwell us... and to tarry (that is keep doing what we're called to do) until He comes.


We study the structure of the Tabernacle and Temple to understand how we approach Him in our worship and our Heart/Soul.. and If we really sat and thought of our Heart as the Holy of Holies, we would take a little more care of ourselves knowing G-d indwells us.

I understand the rant.. but there's a ton in the Bible that hints and points to how we are to treat our bodies and it's not just about sexual sins. :hug

[dixierain]

I have a tattoo, I smoke, and I have pierced ears. I'm not necessarily "proud" of any of that. The question here is whether or not we are sinning -- whether or not we treating our bodies as temples or breaking an OT law.

Something to think about is this: Every one of us will do something today that is not good for our bodies, whether it is eating potato chips, drinking a soda, or watching television. You are most likely harming your body right this second by sitting in front of a computer screen reading this post.

So, is having a tattoo harmful - spiritually or physically? Maybe. But what have YOU done today that is harmful to YOUR body? Think about it. We all sin. The great thing is that whether we know for sure that we are sinning or not, we will be forgiven.

(I am also posting this message on another thread.)

[IbeleiveinJesus]

I agree with Ants, that I think the Bible is pretty clear that the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit... and I think this means we are to respect and take care of our bodies.

This means different things for different people. I would personally never get a tattoo, but I knew a Christian man once who was really into this, and covered in tattoos... Getting Christian tattoos was a way he honored G-d, his body, and was part of his ministry, creating a segway for him to share his faith. Not my cup of tea, but I'm not him, and G-d made us all differently..

When it comes to smoking and such, personally, I think smoking is a bad idea.. but it is really tough for me to get to point the finger at others on this front when I don't exercise, and have a terrible diet...

-Ted

[ILJ]

Good point, Dix!

Seems to me there's a scripture in the Gospels about removing the plank from one's own eye before picking the speck out of their brothers".

Bone Mender...I smoke, too. Wish I never started. One thing I did do is limit the areas where I can smoke. I don't smoke in my house AT ALL. Living here in the Midwest makes for a cold smoke during the winter :lol but it has helped me cut back considerably. I rarely smoke in my car but if I do, I don't use the ashtray (my car is 2 years old and the ashtray has never been used). I use a disposable container such as a soda (yup, I drink soda) or water bottle with a lid. I also make sure I roll the window almost all the way down to let the smoke out. Again, in the midst of a Midwest winter, it can get cold. :lol So these are just a couple of things you can try. Won't help you quit but will definitely help you cut back.

This thread reminds me of something that happened to one of my co-workers. She was outside on her break having a cigarette. Some lady (who she doesn't even know) comes up to her and tells her that she "won't feel sorry for her when she dies of cancer and that her dad died of cancer and she didn't feel sorry for him" yada yada yada. The punch line is my friend told me that after this woman so self-righteously delivered this speech, she went "waddling off". Sooooo, sounds like she had some little "sins" herself.

Edit to say: I think 99.9% of smokers wish they had never started and most do not glorify it in any way, be they Christian or not. I know I wish I had never started. However, I need to echo what Dixierain says in that there are many more ways people, whether they smoke or not, harm their bodies. Take a good look at that bag of potato chips, that nice greasy pork chop (yum!), that cup (or two or three) of coffee every morning, red meat, chocolate, ice cream, and the list goes on and on. And, as another poster stated, lack of exercise. What about that tan in the summer? Or the times we got a sunburn due to overexposure? By the way, I'm guilty of enjoying all the foods I just mentioned and I've gotten tanned and burned plenty. :heh

I'd also like to say that my views are not directed at anyone on this board. I don't see a lot of mud-slinging going on around here...I think we've got a pretty nice bunch of people. :):

[antsinmypants]

ILJ, according to the bible red meat is food, so long as the blood is drained from it. :):

Not trying to be nitpicky.

Sometimes there are those of us who do make points who have removed the speck from our eye first.

There's always a difference between meaning an offence, and someone taking offence. One is intentional, one is someone having assumed a harm unintended.

Shalom

[dixierain]

Ants, I think he was just saying that red meat is bad for you, whether there is blood in it or not. It's got something to do with the heart, I believe.

[dixierain]

Ants, I think ILJ was just saying that red meat is bad for you, whether there is blood in it or not. It's got something to do with the heart, I believe.

[dixierain]

:confused

That was strange...lol. Sorry. Somebody can delete that and this one too.

[BHiles]

I have a tattoo, I smoke, and I have pierced ears. I'm not necessarily "proud" of any of that. The question here is whether or not we are sinning -- whether or not we treating our bodies as temples or breaking an OT law.


The important questions I believe has less to do with whether or not you have or do these things but why.

What was or what is the motivation. Are you smoking because of addiction? Are you piercing or tattooing for rebellion or making a fashion statement following what crowd?

These are the much more important questions to ask oneself. Too many times we look at the results of something as being a problem when in reality it is important for us to learn of ourselves our motiviations and hearts desire.

It is not being fat that is a sin but it could be a result of gluttony.
It is not the pregnancy out of wedlock that is the sin it is the fornication that preceded it.

One must study oneself and make sure that all motivations are Godly and made in a state of spiritual purity.

[blitzkreig]

I have a tattoo, I smoke, and I have pierced ears. I'm not necessarily "proud" of any of that. The question here is whether or not we are sinning -- whether or not we treating our bodies as temples or breaking an OT law. Seeing that we are not under OT Law the question is somewhat moot is it not? :confused

A better question is with all of this Christian Liberty we are given how are my actions effecting my witness and are they a stumbling block to my bothers and sisters in Christ? Only you can answer that on your own.

If I were to do them it might be sin ... but for you perhaps not.Rom 14:10-14
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
(12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
(13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
(14) I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

[antsinmypants]

Ants, I think he was just saying that red meat is bad for you, whether there is blood in it or not. It's got something to do with the heart, I believe.

According to the bible, as long as the life (blood) isn't in it, it's food and healthy :D:

And I agree with Blitz for the most part.

I've seen a ton of mudslinging on people who appear "Fat".. but we never really examine how they got there. I'm considered "Fat" because i'm about 40lbs over what I should be for a female of my height (not taking into consideration my build...).. however it wasn't food that got me here. It was a medical treatment.

I've known friends that had terrible endocrine diseases that ballooned them up over 60+ lbs.

We have to examine our actions individually... and G-d will put people in our lives to prod us on towards being better about things (G-d knows I've had plenty in my life :redface :lol)

Usually, when we play the "mote/beam" and "do not judge" verses... we tend to forget that we aren't to judge those who are outside the flock, but we are to encourage and discern (judge) among those who are in the flock (1 Cor 5).

It's not always about nitpicking. It's about edification.. discipleship, working through things together.

We're all a part of the body, and we have to function together. The stronger helping the weaker and so on and so forth. :):

[Angyl]

Just wanted to point out here, that comparing smoking to foods is apples to oranges.

Food...

No matter what it is, is somewhat eddifying to your body. Potato chips will sustain you and keep you alive (for awhile). when you eat them, some good (a very little) comes out of it.

The pork chop? Also nutrition. you can LIVE on pork chops alone.

Smoking... does absolutely NOTHING good for you. Not one lick of sustinence or promotion to your body in it, it is something totally unuseful to you and your body.

So Ants was right...it's nit-picky to try to compare the fat in a pork chop to a cigarette. Eating one will at least sustain me for hours, smoking the other does not a darn thing for a normal, healthy person. Also, it depends on your body and type, I eat one of the worst diets you could possibly imagine but I have the metabolism of a hummingbird. Low blood pressure, body weight and cholesterol. A nice hunk of fat off a steak is nothing to me (except delicious :):YUM!:):). A cigarette, however is another matter.

I'm not here to attack smokers or smoking. It's not a good habit, but you all already know that and there's no point in harping on it. I just wanted to point out the logical error in comparing food...any food to smoking. Even a Twinkee has some fundamental nutrition (bread), and may not be damaging at all to some people.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

Smoking... does absolutely NOTHING good for you

Oh, I don't know... I smoked back in College and found it relaxing, and an enjoyable experience... that might not be sustaining, but it also isn't nothing... Of course I also want to add that I have long since quit smoking as I felt its negative attributes far out weighed its positive ones...

-Ted

[blitzkreig]

Just wanted to point out here, that comparing smoking to foods is apples to oranges.

That could also be said of the vision which God gave to Peter of the sheet lowered with all kinds of animals in it ... telling him to eat. But of course the vision was with respect to instructions telling Peter to go to Cornelius... a gentile. ;):

Talk about your apples and oranges :lol

[Bone_Mender]

When these things are grouped into the same category (sinful behavior), then they become apples to apples. Tattoos do nothing for you either, but are they sinful? I suppose it depends on the mindset in which you got them. If you got it done because you wanted to get looks, then it's a matter of pride....sinful. But if you got them for the purpose of your own interest (you think they are pretty, you got a cross to honor God) then you have to wonder.

It's not always so cut and dry. I'm not saying that smoking is a good thing by no means, but treating me like a leaper because of it is far worse....especially if you knew the mental anguish it causes me and the amount of prayer that I have spent over it. It's kinda like pouring salt in an open wound. Like calling someone fat...you have no idea what they may have gone through. Perhaps they pray for strength daily, perhaps they try to excercise...do we encourage them to keep trying, or just say..."Your fat." It's the whole attitude behind it I suppose.

As a side note, the same preacher who doesn't want me to teach has approached me and bad mouthed several other members of the church, including the minister of music!!....AND I'M A NEW MEMBER!!! He's made snide, rude comments...his wife has purposely started fights with almost every woman in the church, has stated that she never married a preacher...she married a construction worker who became a preacher...it's not her fault that she's not a "preachers" wife...and the list goes on and on.

Anyway...I'm calmed down a good bit now and have found a better solution to my problem. Thanks for listening.

Bone

[ILJ]

Blitz and BHiles, thank you for your posts. This thread was getting a little too hot as do most threads where there are definite opinions about certain subjects.

Ants, I have had the same problem with medication-related weight gain. It is a long battle which, now that the medication has completely worn out of my system, that I am slowly beginning to win again. My best wishes are with you. Because of my experience, I personally know that not all people are guilty of overeating. This goes to show how much people are judged (and wrongfully) by their outward appearances...if they're overweight, if they smoke, etc. I hope people will see through the thick fog of smoke surrounding me (just kidding here, folks - this thread needs a little humor) to see the real me...my personality and heart, that is.

[Angyl]

I'm not saying that smoking is a good thing by no means, but treating me like a leaper because of it is far worse
Fully agreed! :thumb

Very anti-Christian thing to do.

[antsinmypants]

Fully agreed! :thumb

Very anti-Christian thing to do.


I agree too. We have to approach people as we would Messiah, and many of us lose sight of that.

[joy4Him2day]

BoneMender said:

I don't have a problem with it being a sin...what I have a problem with is everyone else having a problem with it. I don't smoke on church grounds, but I have recently been told I could not teach a Sunday school class because I smoke! I attended a different church for 6 years prior to moving and joining a church that is closer....for 5 of those 6 years...I taught our Adult Sunday school class. Also, my former church had 10 times the membership. That's where I have a problem. Man is limiting me based on his own preconceptions. Did God not use the weakest, lowliest, usually worst candidates in the Bible for His glory? If God has a purpose for you and you are willing to follow, I do feel that other people should challenge that.

Dear BoneMender:

I feel bad about the Sunday School thing, it is tuff when leadership has certain guidelines they follow, and it means you cannot apply........but while you are learning to walk in love, God will give you other things to do. I have learned this, to not judge what I am doing for the Lord on the basis of whether it is "in" church. It's a tuff call for churches to decide what is allowed for leadership and what isn't, ie. like when you or someone pointed out that "gossips, joy-robbers, strife-makers, power-people, favoritisms," manage to make their way into the "worship team", or "eldership" , or "sunday school teachers", or even "janitors". But God is the One who sets people up, and takes them down, and I have to remind myself all the time, that if I am seeking my place in His will, no one will be able to take it from me. He has a place for you, right where you are today, I believe it. Because He understands our struggles, and wrestles, even with our flesh. I think we are hard on each other, and forget, none of us can live a moment without His grace, even when we are trying our hardest, and most of the time, we are not doing that......but He loved us first, and best, and we continue to rely on that Hope.........

Keep believing that He has a place for you, even if you continue to struggle with things of the flesh.......and don't let the fact that you cannot serve in a "visual capacity in church membership" cut you down.

I have seen my children minister to the unsaved out of the church in a very blessed way, that encourages me, that God is working in their hearts to develop more trust, more understanding, and more strength to lean on Him, as they realize, He meets them where they are.......

Somethings that are not "our issues" seem like such an easy thing to let go, but let someone approach us on "our issues" (and we all have them), and see how easy we overcome our flesh.......

Sometimes I think we think we are supposed to be what Oswald Chambers affectionately refers to as "museum specimens" held up for all the world to see, instead of of realizing we all struggle and need each other to love us in our struggles.......

I just felt like you needed encouragement today. :):

[cinlynn]

One thing I know for sure!!! Smoker, or no... tatoos or not.. eat red meat or no.. etc.. etc.... no matter what my sin may, or may not be.. I am forgiven! :nod And washed clean in the sight of my God through the Blood of my Savior. As you are! We all struggle with some sin(s). But it's not our fight with sin that saves us. It's what He gave of Himself on that cross that took it all away, as far as the east is from the west.
And one day.. maybe (prayerfully) very soon, none of these things will matter. :wave

Won't that be wonderful! :D:

[ILJ]

One thing I know for sure!!! Smoker, or no... tatoos or not.. eat red meat or no.. etc.. etc.... no matter what my sin may, or may not be.. I am forgiven! :nod And washed clean in the sight of my God through the Blood of my Savior. As you are! We all struggle with some sin(s). But it's not our fight with sin that saves us. It's what He gave of Himself on that cross that took it all away, as far as the east is from the west.
And one day.. maybe (prayerfully) very soon, none of these things will matter. :wave

Won't that be wonderful! :D:

Thank you, Cinlynn! :):

[StinkerBell]

Wow, I am stricked oddly with all this...This is what I call an "Gray Area".

I guess by some standards I must be in sin too. My ears are peirced and I shave my legs and luck my bushy brows...lets see I eat things which can lead to heart disease, so I guess that maybe by eaing such things I am commiting a long term suicide.

Ok its time for me to go live in a cave so my sinfulness will not allow others to fall..

[cinlynn]

Wow, I am stricked oddly with all this...This is what I call an "Gray Area".

I guess by some standards I must be in sin too. My ears are peirced and I shave my legs and luck my bushy brows...lets see I eat things which can lead to heart disease, so I guess that maybe by eaing such things I am commiting a long term suicide.

Ok its time for me to go live in a cave so my sinfulness will not allow others to fall..


I always heard "lucking" those eyebrows would lead to living in a cave.... :heh




:B: :hug

[joy4Him2day]

Wow, I am stricked oddly with all this...This is what I call an "Gray Area".

I guess by some standards I must be in sin too. My ears are peirced and I shave my legs and luck my bushy brows...lets see I eat things which can lead to heart disease, so I guess that maybe by eaing such things I am commiting a long term suicide.

Ok its time for me to go live in a cave so my sinfulness will not allow others to fall..

And that "gray area" means you are getting old....:tsk :lol

[BHiles]

I always heard "lucking" those eyebrows would lead to living in a cave.... :heh

:B: :hugThanks for clearing that up. I was getting kind of embarrassed reading that line because I did not understand what it meant.:doh :redface

[cinlynn]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was getting kind of embarrassed reading that line because I did not understand what it meant.:doh :redface



:lol :pound







:twitch Yer welcome! :D:

[Bone_Mender]

Man you folks are great!! I was out sick yesterday and this is the first time I had the chance to come back in here and have a look. Thanks so much for the encouragement. I'm still not 100% sure what to do. I want to move back to my old church, but my wife is happy here because we have really taken a liking to many of the people here.

Remaining in prayer about it and seeking God's will on where my family should be...

Thanks again... :hug

Bone

[StinkerBell]

oh man I wish I still had my wireless keyboad to blame for my missising letters :whislte
lucking=plucking :P

[Ladybug]

oh man I wish I still had my wireless keyboad to blame for my missising letters :whislte
lucking=plucking :P


doing good there, Stink. :thumb

[StinkerBell]

I am going back to my cave now :drama

[Kendall Crawfor]

Two things two remember

Christ died for all my sins past present and future!

God judges the heart. He does not think as a man.

ok make it three!
No sin has been committed until sin has been finished.
James 1:13-16

[Kendall Crawfor]

Bone you quoted 1 cor as context for you statements. Consider also the question of holiness.

Romans 12:1-2
12:1
Therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your spiritual worship.
12:2
Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Focus on what I have place in bold on verse 2. I belive what is pleasing to God is differnt for each of us since that is how we are made. Each of us have talents that others do not. Consider what pleased Christ as he watched the widow place her two mites in the offering plate.