Rameses: Wrath of God or Man?

[Merl]

This TV documentary airs Sunday at 9pm on the Discovery Channel. It includes the facial reconstruction of Amun-her Khepeshef, who many historians believe is the firstborn son of Pharaoh cited in the Book of Exodus.

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/rameses/rameses.html

[Candi]

Hi Merl

I clicked on the link and it comes on again this coming sunday evening. From what the discovery channel website shows....the firstborn has a wound in the skull.

Thanks for letting us know about the show. (((hugs))

[joyfulnoise]

It premieres Sunday December 5.

USA Today ran a story about it in yesterday's paper. The skull was found in a tomb with 3 other sons of Rameses II.

[mrsfriend]

They are so funny. They are questioning whether the son was killed by Moses!!!

[UNeverEverNo]

They sure will go to great lengths in an attempt to disprove the Bible.

[Bethshaya]

actually, they are not attempting to prove he was killed by Moses (man), but by nature. They are attempting to disprove the plagues as acts of God by saying that it all started in Ethiopia by floods, bringing their "red" mud down the nile and flooding Egypt making the water appear red like blood (however we all know the bible says the water became blood, not that it looked like blood).

The subsequent plagues they state were all natural occurances from that flood. Water stagnation bringing on frogs, flies and pestilence as well as boils from the dead animals and anthrax. (even though anthrax doesnt cause boils, they person suphocates to death)

It also doesnt explain how Moses knew what plagues were coming next before they happened. He never said "Hey Pharoh, you know that fly thing we had last week? That was brought to you by my God". No, Moses told him what was coming next.

It does however explain what always bothered me about the story in the movies. If Moses was raised with Ramses' children, howcome in the movies when the first born of Ramses dies, he is still a child, when Moses is an adult?

Since Ramses ordered the male children killed after he had children of his own, Moses had to be younger or the same age as Ramses children, they would have aged at the same pace, making Ramses firstborn near the same age range as Moses.

[mrsfriend]

Did I get this right? The final thesis was that he was not killed by a plauge from God. The killing of the first born egyptian boys, but that he was killed in a battle that was centered around the parting of the red sea???

I don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand how everyone can't just accept the Word of God, the Bible on faith. But, then again, I guess there's a whole lot of people who would, and do ask how we can accept the bible on faith.

[Charity4Ever]

Discovery channel always has these wow documentaries that try and disprove the Bible. Disproving a global flood, disproving Adam and Eve, disproving the Christmas story, etc.

[Grace]

The program was long on speculation and short on facts. It was theory based upon theory with a little more theory on the side and absolutely no concrete facts to support any of the theories! :rolleyes :wacko

[MrsG0529]

What irritates me the most about these shows is that they are presented as facts, not theories. This program was pure speculation. They don't even know for sure to whom the skull they found belonged.

It does however explain what always bothered me about the story in the movies. If Moses was raised with Ramses' children, howcome in the movies when the first born of Ramses dies, he is still a child, when Moses is an adult?

When Moses went back to Egypt, his "brother" was Pharoah. They would have been approximately the same age. That is, if I'm understanding things correctly.

[Danimus]

What an amazing set of coinky dinks these people have unveiled!!! HOW COULD WE HAVE BEEN SO MISLEAD?!?!?!?!?

I'm gonna do a show suggesting that these "documentaries" have no more reality to them than the WWF.

[JustGodsChild]

I watched it last night and I thought it was rather dumb. It did a lot of speculating and not a lot of proving that It was not plague by God who killed the pharoah's son but rather someone who he was in battle with. :rolleyes

However, did you notice that the brunette man tried to prove the story of Exodus and the other man Kent Weeks tried to disprove it happened? I think if someone who was not well grounded in their walk, it might persuade them to think it was not a real incident but rather a story, thus making them feel the Bible is just that: A Story!

[LaMontre]

actually, they are not attempting to prove he was killed by Moses (man), but by nature. They are attempting to disprove the plagues as acts of God by saying that it all started in Ethiopia by floods, bringing their "red" mud down the nile and flooding Egypt making the water appear red like blood (however we all know the bible says the water became blood, not that it looked like blood).

The subsequent plagues they state were all natural occurances from that flood. Water stagnation bringing on frogs, flies and pestilence as well as boils from the dead animals and anthrax. (even though anthrax doesnt cause boils, they person suphocates to death)

Pharoe probably "hardened his heart" in the same manner.

[Bethshaya]

What irritates me the most about these shows is that they are presented as facts, not theories. This program was pure speculation. They don't even know for sure to whom the skull they found belonged.



When Moses went back to Egypt, his "brother" was Pharoah. They would have been approximately the same age. That is, if I'm understanding things correctly.


Ah hah! Thanks Mrs, that put it into perspective. So it was Ramses grandchild who was the "firstborn" that died, correct?

Since the bible does not mention the name of the Pharaoh of Exodus, nor does it mention a specific timeframe, we will never know for sure whether it was Ramses or someone else.

This article states it could have been another Pharaoh. I am sure there are many other "theories" as well. I guess it is just another of those questions we have to wait to ask God himself.

The Bible nowhere mentions the name of the pharaoh of the Exodus, but Bible students have always been curious as to who he was. No doubt, some Christians will be wary of trying to discover something the Bible has not clearly revealed; but in studying this question one can come away with his faith increased in the Bible as the unerring word of God. Although the Bible does not specifically name the pharaoh of the Exodus, enough data is supplied for us to be relatively sure who he was.



http://allanturner.com/pharaoh.html

[MrsG0529]

Right. From what I understand, that is correct.

[Candi]

What I noticed was that they never ran a DNA test to see how closely related they were...they just went by the cheekbones or whatever. Also, there were other skeletons in the same grave...why would anybody bury their firstborn with others?

Also...it was all the first borns of Egypt...all that didn't have the blood on the doorposts...not just Rameses first born.

I don't remember them saying why they thought that one was the first one...???

As for the age of Moses...I figured he was young, no older than 20 or so...because when he left Egypt he got married so I figured he was somewhat young. I know they were in the wilderness for 40 years...did they say how old he was then? Anyone know how old he was when he died?

[Goliath]

Yaknow these so called scientific braniac shows make me sick. The more of these shows they do, putting the truth of the bible on one side of the fence and humanistic scientific theory psychobabble dung(biblical word) on the other side of the fence and in the end making the word of God looking like a fairy tale ARRGGHH!!! All I can see as we are approaching the Lords return a big stick coming out of heaven and Him drawing a big line in the sand and the days of sitting on the fence are all over.Either your with Him or against Him.Wheat and tares.......... I`ll say it again............Wheat and tares!

[joyfulnoise]

What an amazing set of coinky dinks these people have unveiled!!! HOW COULD WE HAVE BEEN SO MISLEAD?!?!?!?!?

I'm gonna do a show suggesting that these "documentaries" have no more reality to them than the WWF.

The extreme amount of commercials was enough to make me lose interest early. The show contained alot of speculation and very little archeology, making it more like "Unsolved Mysteries" than a psuedo documentary. Discovery Channel did the same thing last night with the show about Cleopatra and her death. Welcome to CSI:Egypt! :rolleyes

The rest of Egypt Live week doesn't look too promising.

[SuenoIdeal]

As for the age of Moses...I figured he was young, no older than 20 or so...because when he left Egypt he got married so I figured he was somewhat young. I know they were in the wilderness for 40 years...did they say how old he was then? Anyone know how old he was when he died?

The Bible tells us how old Moses was when he died

Deu 34:7 And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eye was not dim, nor had he lost any of his natural strength.

So if my math is right (and it's possibly not,never did like math :laugh ) that would have made Moses around 40 when he left Egypt and around 80 when he went back.

[Ladyhen]

I caught part of this the other night, but changed it because I got SO angry. They tried to say Moses was involved in some egyptian religion worshipping the sun and he was out to get Pharoah personally. That the first "monotheistic society was actually Egypt" - and that Moses wasn't even worshipping the God of the bible.

PLEASE!!!!

[mld726]

Yaknow these so called scientific braniac shows make me sick. The more of these shows they do, putting the truth of the bible on one side of the fence and humanistic scientific theory psychobabble dung(biblical word) on the other side of the fence and in the end making the word of God looking like a fairy tale ARRGGHH!!! All I can see as we are approaching the Lords return a big stick coming out of heaven and Him drawing a big line in the sand and the days of sitting on the fence are all over.Either your with Him or against Him.Wheat and tares.......... I`ll say it again............Wheat and tares!

IMHO, I think plenty of scientists (humanists, atheists, etc.) would find the methods of this "scientist" ridiculous and highly flawed. Many physical scientists (physics, chemistry, etc.) would not even consider archeology to be true science. It's speculation and guessing with no possible way of testing their hypotheses.

Personally I believe any person with half a brain watching this show would notice that this special was full of HOLES. :laugh

Bring on the DNA test! Notice they didn't even mention DNA testing on these skulls, if it had been a possibility or impossible to do then they should have mentioned it. (maybe I missed it) Sorry, but this show was totally fiction, and a poor excuse for "science". Too bad they feel the need to explain away bibical miracles, but their explanation was laughable.

YSIC (& a physicist),
Marty

[carmen]

I caught part of this the other night, but changed it because I got SO angry. They tried to say Moses was involved in some egyptian religion worshipping the sun and he was out to get Pharoah personally. That the first "monotheistic society was actually Egypt" - and that Moses wasn't even worshipping the God of the bible.

PLEASE!!!!I didn't watch this as intently as I could have, but IIRC, the show presented Egypt as the first with a monothestic religion, and that it had developed a certain amount of time before Moses (I don't remember the amount of time, though). At any rate, I had to wonder if this evidence of an Egyptian monothestic religion couldn't be the remnant of something brought there by Joseph when he came to Egypt and rose to such great power in Pharoh's court. The fact that he was so powerful and yet clung to the Lord had to have some impact on people there. I know the show presented the religion as a sun god thing, but maybe it had simply become perverted over time. Still, I found it an interesting parallel with the Biblical accounts.

[jerbear]

I usually tune in to these "specials" for about 10 minutes until the first words of blasphemy come then I change the channel. I have yet to watch a whole one. :):

[LadySharon]

Hello. I don't normaly do this... but I just watched the show that I had tivoed awhile back.

They did mention DNA testing at the end... they wished they could do it but didn't say why they couldn't.

I'm assuming it had to deal with our current technologiy and the age of the bones.

I thought of the possiblity of the child being the grandchild of ramses as well... because there would be quite alot of death if you define first born as everyone that was the first born ... no matter what the age. I started thinking .. wouln't the pharaoh have been a first born son?
So I figured that status "ended" if you had children of your own.

On the one god worshiping pharaoh... I saw a specail on him once before and thought like carmen - that he took the idea from the hebrews. I wasn't sure how literial he was or how much he really understood. I just thought it was interesting.

- Sharon

[mamacags]

Would DNA testing really help. Didn't all the royalty inbreed at that time because they believed they were the only ones worthy of siring more heirs:noidea

[TrojansFan]

Yeah, I'm getting sick of folks always trying to discredit God's word. I'm glad I won't be there on the Discovery Channel folks' judgment day when God asks, "Did you call me a Liar?" I USE to have some respect for the Discovery Channel. But not anymore.

[BloodoftheLamb]

Reminds me of the old joke,

Kid preaching on the corner saying God saved the Jews by parting the Red Sea!

Unbeliever says kid the water was only six inches deep there, they walked across....

Kid says " God drowns Egyptian Army in six inches of water!"