Mark 7:14-23 - was there EVER any unclean foods?

[crtwhlfrchrst]

Jesus said in this passage that "it is not what goes into a man but what comes out of his heart that defiles him (paraphrase)" Mark then parenthetically says that Jesus thus declares all foods to be clean.

My question is, did Jesus make all food unclean right then and there, or had all food always been clean, and Jesus was just clarifying an age-old misconception that the Jews had held?

If it is the former, then what changed to make the food clean? Why have it be unclean for a time, and then clean all of a sudden?

[Hootmon]

Aside from the hygenics/nutritional issues, the 'unclean food' was symbolic of the Gentiles. Christ was saying that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered 'unclean' by the newly minted Christians.

[Don]

I would like to know what the people who believe we must adhere to the dietary laws of the OT law have to say about Mark 7:18-19

"'Are you so dull?' Jesus asked. 'Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him "unclean"? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean.')."

[ForGod4ever]

In the passage, Mark 7:14-23, Jesus is saying basically that all types of food are okay to eat, as food in and of itself does not defile you, it is your thought-life that defiles you. Jesus came to fulfill, clarify, & give us freedom/shed new light on Old Testament practices. In reading extensively in the Old Testament, from what I understand anyway, I think at least part of the scripture given regarding clean/unclean meats were given as guidelines for people in knowing that some types of meats/foods can carry more bacteria and disease, which in turn can cause various illnesses and diseases in people, especially when they are not washed and/or cooked properly. Also, since scriptures tell us that "life is in the blood" and "blood is life" of people and animals alike, it makes sense to me at least, as to why God would have wanted them to drain blood from animals prior to their being cooked and eaten. Basically, I believe He was just giving common sense guidelines for people to go by, since we in and of ourselves don't understand and realize sometimes that whether we fully comprehend His ways and thoughts or not, He always knows and desires what is best for us at all times. Hopefully, this will help somewhat to answer your question at least!

Mark 7:14-15 Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. "All of you listen," He said, "and try to understand. You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do!"

Mark 7:18-19 "Don't you understand either?" He asked. "Can't you see that what you eat won't defile you?" Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again." By saying this, He showed that every kind of food is acceptable.

Mark 7:20 And then He added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you. For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."

[crtwhlfrchrst]

In the passage, Mark 7:14-23, Jesus is saying basically that all types of food are okay to eat, as food in and of itself does not defile you, it is your thought-life that defiles you. Jesus came to fulfill, clarify, & give us freedom/shed new light on Old Testament practices. In reading extensively in the Old Testament, from what I understand anyway, I think at least part of the scripture given regarding clean/unclean meats were given as guidelines for people in knowing that some types of meats/foods can carry more bacteria and disease, which in turn can cause various illnesses and diseases in people, especially when they are not washed and/or cooked properly. Also, since scriptures tell us that "life is in the blood" and "blood is life" of people and animals alike, it makes sense to me at least, as to why God would have wanted them to drain blood from animals prior to their being cooked and eaten. Basically, I believe He was just giving common sense guidelines for people to go by, since we in and of ourselves don't understand and realize sometimes that whether we fully comprehend His ways and thoughts or not, He always knows and desires what is best for us at all times. Hopefully, this will help somewhat to answer your question at least!

Mark 7:14-15 Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. "All of you listen," He said, "and try to understand. You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do!"

Mark 7:18-19 "Don't you understand either?" He asked. "Can't you see that what you eat won't defile you?" Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again." By saying this, He showed that every kind of food is acceptable.

Mark 7:20 And then He added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you. For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."


Just curious - what translation is this from?

[antsinmypants]

what is in parentheses, is not in the original scripts. The translators put that there. :wave

[Don]

what is in parentheses, is not in the original scripts. The translators put that there. :wave
Actually, that bit is in the majority of the manuscripts. It just wasn't in the five or so that the KJV was based on (which explains why it's missing from the KJV).

[crtwhlfrchrst]

OHMYGOSH! I just re-read my thread title and caught the error of speech! I sound like such a hick!!

[Don]

OHMYGOSH! I just re-read my thread title and caught the error of speech! I sound like such a hick!!
Aw, shucks! 'Tweren't nuthin nobody else couldn't rightly figger.

[Hootmon]

OHMYGOSH! I just re-read my thread title and caught the error of speech! I sound like such a hick!! Can I get me a Hunting License here? :heh

[Don]

Can I get me a Hunting License here? :heh
I wish they showed the milliseconds apart posts were made. Your post appeared as my browser was being refreshed to show my new post.

[antsinmypants]

Actually, that bit is in the majority of the manuscripts. It just wasn't in the five or so that the KJV was based on (which explains why it's missing from the KJV).

That's strange, it's even in the KJV 1611... and in mine at home.

[Don]

That's strange, it's even in the KJV 1611... and in mine at home.
It wasn't in the KJV I checked(!). :behindsof

[antsinmypants]

It wasn't in the KJV I checked(!). :behindsof

Must be because mine is a scofield.

[antsinmypants]

My question is, did Jesus make all food unclean right then and there, or had all food always been clean, and Jesus was just clarifying an age-old misconception that the Jews had held?

All food is clean. The problem is what people declare or do not declare to be food.

According to the Torah, what G-d said to the mixed company leaving Egypt (of Hebrews, of egyptians and other nationalities freed in Egypt), what was and was not food.

It still stands that the items declared "non foods" are mainly animals that are carrion eaters/feces eaters.

Items declared food are for the most part vegetarian (barring the fish, which sometimes eat other fish, and chickens, and the insects (same reason as fish, sometimes eating their own kind).

The discussion at hand was whether or not washing one's hands was something needed to eat or not.


Here is the scripture:

Lev 11:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
Lev 11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These [are] the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that [are] on the earth.

Lev 11:3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, [and] cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
Lev 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: [as] the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he unclean unto you.
Lev 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.

Lev 11:9 These shall ye eat of all that [are] in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you:
Lev 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you.

Lev 11:13 And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
Lev 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
Lev 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
Lev 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
Lev 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
Lev 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
Lev 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
Lev 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon [all] four, [shall be] an abomination unto you.
Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon [all] four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
Lev 11:22 [Even] these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
Lev 11:23 But all [other] flying creeping things, which have four feet, [shall be] an abomination unto you.

Lev 11:24 And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcass of them shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:25 And whosoever beareth [ought] of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:26 [The carcases] of every beast which divideth the hoof, and [is] not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, [are] unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
Lev 11:27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on [all] four, those [are] unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:28 And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they [are] unclean unto you.
Lev 11:29 These also [shall be] unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
Lev 11:30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.

Lev 11:31 These [are] unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:32 And upon whatsoever [any] of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether [it be] any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel [it be], wherein [any] work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
Lev 11:33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto [any] of them falleth, whatsoever [is] in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.


Lev 11:34 Of all meat which may be eaten, [that] on which [such] water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every [such] vessel shall be unclean.
Lev 11:35 And every [thing] whereupon [any part] of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; [whether it be] oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: [for] they [are] unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:36 Nevertheless a fountain or pit, [wherein there is] plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.
Lev 11:37 And if [any part] of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it [shall be] clean.
Lev 11:38 But if [any] water be put upon the seed, and [any part] of their carcase fall thereon, it [shall be] unclean unto you.

Lev 11:39 And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:40 And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.

Lev 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth [shall be] an abomination; it shall not be eaten.
Lev 11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon [all] four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they [are] an abomination.

Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
Lev 11:44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Lev 11:45 For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.

Lev 11:46 This [is] the command of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.



The Handwashing routine spoken of is technically in scripture, but in Talmud it was embellished that it had to be done a certain way, and hands washed so many times before one could eat, drink or handle food. Great for cleanliness, but not practical at times.

Mar 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash [their] hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.


[i]Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

[Don]

All food is clean. The problem is what people declare or do not declare to be food.In the Levitical passages you quote, the things that the Jews were not supposed to eat were not "not food" but, rather, "unclean". I see no claim that these things were not food. Instead, the scriptures repeatedly say they were not supposed to eat these things because they were unclean (not because they were not food).

And I don't know how you got "handwashing" out of that passage in Mark. It's clear as day that he is talking about food (entering the mouth, into the stomach, etc.)

I really fail to see either of your two points. The scripture -- both the passages in Mark and the Levitical passages you quoted to support your view(!) -- blatantly refute you.

[antsinmypants]

In the Levitical passages you quote, the things that the Jews were not supposed to eat were not "not food" but, rather, "unclean". I see no claim that these things were not food. Instead, the scriptures repeatedly say they were not supposed to eat these things because they were unclean (not because they were not food).

He said it is not food for you. He said it was unclean. Both = the same. Non-food, unclean.



And I don't know how you got "handwashing" out of that passage in Mark.

If one reads what I underlined and bolded, it's clear as day it's about handwashing.

[Don]

He said it is not food for you. He said it was unclean. Both = the same. Non-food, unclean.

If one reads what I underlined and bolded, it's clear as day it's about handwashing.
Maybe there is text in your posts that is invisible in my browser. I see no scripture saying that those things were not food, nor do I see anything about handwashing in the underlined & bolded text.

Can you try quote the exact scriptures where it says (in Leviticus 11) that "x is not food and it is unclean" and where it says (in Mark 9) that "not washing your hands does not make you unclean"?

Either I am completely blind or you are. I honestly cannot see these things that you are talking about. The words simply are not there. Are there any other witnesses out there who can vouch for either one of us?

[antsinmypants]

Either I am completely blind or you are. I honestly cannot see these things that you are talking about. The words simply are not there. Are there any other witnesses out there who can vouch for either one of us?

That was nice... :doh

[antsinmypants]

Maybe there is text in your posts that is invisible in my browser. I see no scripture saying that those things were not food, nor do I see anything about handwashing in the underlined & bolded text.

Can you try quote the exact scriptures where it says (in Leviticus 11) that "x is not food and it is unclean" and where it says (in Mark 9) that "not washing your hands does not make you unclean"?

First, I suggest refreshing this thread, or clicking here. (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=2097580#post2097580)


Secondly, if I must, I shall repost.

[Don]

That was nice... :dohI can't tell if you are trying to pull some kind of lame stunt or what. The words you are talking about aren't there. The quotes don't say what you claim they say. What else can I say? I can't understand how you can claim things that are clearly untrue, which is why I assert that one of us is blind. You can be insulted by that all you want, but I did not mean it as an insult.

[ForGod4ever]

For Crtwhlfrchrst:

The Bible scripture quoted in my earlier message is from the New Living Translation, "The Book", which out of all the various Bible translations I have ever owned and use in scripture comparison, this translation by far is the best and easiest to read and comprehend. (At least in my opinion). I originally heard of this translation on the 700 Club several years ago, and actually purchased my own copy in a Christian Bookstore.

[antsinmypants]

I can't tell if you are trying to pull some kind of lame stunt or what. The words you are talking about aren't there. The quotes don't say what you claim they say. What else can I say? I can't understand how you can claim things that are clearly untrue, which is why I assert that one of us is blind. You can be insulted by that all you want, but I did not mean it as an insult.

Don, they are there, I even resized some of them to size 3. I have most of them bolded (except the leviticus passage) and if you STILL cannot see them, I suggest clearing your cache (cookies) and re-initiating Rapture Ready and carefully re-reading the post, because it is there.

[Don]

Don, they are there, I even resized some of them to size 3. I have most of them bolded (except the leviticus passage) and if you STILL cannot see them, I suggest clearing your cache (cookies) and re-initiating Rapture Ready and carefully re-reading the post, because it is there.I am so sorry! You completely confused me when you said this:

"If one reads what I underlined and bolded, it's clear as day it's about handwashing".I read and re-read the underlined and bolded text but didn't see anything about handwashing. Now we both understand why I didn't see it there.

[antsinmypants]

I am so sorry! You completely confused me when you said this:

I read and re-read the underlined and bolded text but didn't see anything about handwashing. Now we both understand why I didn't see it there.


From the bolded and size 3 text:


Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash [their] hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

[Don]

From the bolded and size 3 text:I already said I got it. You had simply confused me earlier by telling me that the handwashing thing was in the bold and underlined text when it was not. If you're just going to throw my apology back into my face, then fine. I've had enough.

[antsinmypants]

I already said I got it. You had simply confused me earlier by telling me that the handwashing thing was in the bold and underlined text when it was not. If you're just going to throw my apology back into my face, then fine. I've had enough.

I'm not!

I thought you meant you still didn't see it. :redface

[blitzkreig]

Now I think I am going to toss my cookies :doh :rofl

[there]

I will give my take on it.
You are both correct in that it had to do with hand washing but also it have to do with food and led to the future concerning food. And also to washing rituals for piety.

Sort of a two in one deal that is later solved when reading Pauls writings and Acts with the vision Peter had concerning the clean and the unclean foods. Also in the Noach law also given to the gentiles in Acts. Understanding the terms of what is written in these things can be done by careful reading. Balancing it the the sacrifical law requirements.

There is no more sacrifice and Christ Yeshua knew what was to come that He is the final sacrifice for sin so the law of sacrifical purity for the sacrifice would no longer be needed and the going forth of the Gospel (at the speed and the places) to the gentiles would make the food laws near to impossible But the most important is they were to point to the true and final sacrifice. The Lamb of God.

Let us not have judgement and bickkering on these matters but be clear in our own minds for ourselves and keep it between ourselves and our Lord. But let us keep in mind the hospitality laws also. Which are eternal.

When you prepare a meal for a visitor would you give them food they do not like or would be offensive to them? Or food they would become sick from due to an allergy? Would you not eat the same as they do? Does it matter if there is no pork or maybe a vegetarian meal. Is it not good food supplied by God and blessed by prayer. Then take the same attitude now and read carefully the Word of God concerning this.
Leave judgement with God.

Christ was literally point out the suggested self piety of the pharisees and also things that were to come. He was showing where true godliness and evil are found. Within a person and that can be seen through their words and actions not what and how they eat.

Hope it helps.

The Lord Yeshua be with you

Hellen