A statement by Rick Joiner on Paul Cain

[cindyw]

Special Bulletin by Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, and Jack Deere

October 19, 2004

Number 36

Paul Cain has been used mightily by the Lord to touch many lives in our times. He is esteemed by many around the world as a major prophetic voice and as a spiritual father. It would be hard to estimate the number who have been healed, delivered, or saved through his ministry. We have especially benefited from his friendship and ministry in too many ways to count. It is therefore with great sorrow that we publish the following.

In February 2004, we were made aware that Paul had become an alcoholic. In April 2004, we confronted Paul with evidence that he had been recently involved in homosexual activity. Paul admitted to these sinful practices and was placed under discipline, agreeing to a process of restoration which the three of us would oversee.

However, Paul has resisted this process and has continued in his sin. Therefore, after having exhausted the first two steps of Matthew 18:15-17, we now have a responsibility to bring this before the church. Our sincere hope remains to see Paul restored. We are deeply committed to Galatians 6:1, which states, “Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.”

We do not believe that Paul has committed anything that places him beyond the grace of God. We are hopeful that there are those who are more spiritual and wiser than we are who can help Paul through a process of restoration in which we failed. We remain desirous of helping in this in any way that we can. If restored, we believe that Paul can once again have an extraordinary ministry and be a significant blessing to the body of Christ.

We apologize to the body of Christ for our lack of discernment in promoting Paul’s ministry while he had these significant strongholds in his life. We failed to see them until this year. It is also a mistake to assume that others who were close to Paul or worked with him shared these same problems. We also do not feel that this should in any way negate or reduce the great benefit that Paul’s ministry has been to so many in the past. We hope that Paul can yet be restored and used again for the glory of God in the wonderful way that so many of us have been blessed to see in the past.

With our deepest regrets and sincerity,

Rick Joyner, Jack Deere, Mike Bickle

http://www.morningstarministries.org/pages/special_bulletins/SB_Current.html

[Slippery]

:(: :cry :(: this is sad. I hate to see a fellow brother stumble like this. I think you should post this on the prayer request forum also.

[Patty T]

Oh my :(: Asking God to restore and heal Paul from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet.

[seeker42]

:doh :rolleyes

That's unfortunate.

It's also interesting that this is one of the emails that shows that the old Kansas City Prophets are still together.

There obviously was a problem with Cain's conduct. But if they had examined his theology, that would have told them far more. Paul Cain repeatedly denied the Trinity, continued to praise and defend his personal mentor (Willliam Branham - who also denied the Trinity), and Cain has made Many statements about his own "revelation" being either equal to scripture or nearly equal.

If these leaders had been Biblical to begin with (in their theology), they would have saved their followers a great deal of heartache.


Seeker

[cindyw]

You're right Slippery. It's done.............

[markofthebest]

Who is Paul Cain?

[Christine]

So much for the Kansas City Prophets.

I am glad Joyner has handled this in the manner that he has. Now if he would only repent for his false prophesies -- including those about his endorsement of Cain and Jones as "Prophets" (as well as himself).

[holyspiritvesse]

All these guys are on slippery slopes!

Line 'em up there beside Benny Hinn.

Joyner believes Jesus is going to appear to him and other elders in his organization and give him directives on the coming HUGE revival that is supposed to be taking place.

What is that verse? Oh,, yeah..

By their fruits you shall know them.

[psykon99]

All these guys are on slippery slopes!

Line 'em up there beside Benny Hinn.


I beg to differ. There's a big difference.

I'm saddened to hear this news. As to Seeker's comments, even those with "sound" theology (sound I asume meaning cessationist) can and do have these problems. How about not judging the man and instead praying for him?

[holyspiritvesse]

The Scriptures says to expose those who have false doctrine, and that I will. I have been to Morningstar services, read several Joyner books, have been on his mailing list, have spoken to his closest leaders, etc.

I stand by what I said.

One of the BIGGEST, not only- but biggest errors, is the one where he says Jesus is going to appear to him - and he says in the flesh, not in spirit.

Did you miss this somewhere in my post?

Do you not see this error? And do you not remember that Benny Hinn says the exact same thing? That Jesus is going to appear in the flesh on stage with him?

[Patty T]

The Scriptures says to expose those who have false doctrine, and that I will. I have been to Morningstar services, read several Joyner books, have been on his mailing list, have spoken to his closest leaders, etc.

I stand by what I said.

One of the BIGGEST, not only- but biggest errors, is the one where he says Jesus is going to appear to him - and he says in the flesh, not in spirit.

Did you miss this somewhere in my post?

Do you not see this error? And do you not remember that Benny Hinn says the exact same thing? That Jesus is going to appear in the flesh on stage with him?


If they truly believe in their hearts that Jesus is coming to stand by them, in the flesh, how can this be an error? It certainly doesn't seem to fall into the "another gospel" category so it's not false doctrine.

[Creeper]

Paul Cain? or Paul Crouch? Is this the Paul married to Jan with the pink hair?

I am confused.. :confused

[seeker42]

Paul Crouch is the head of TBN and not the person who is being discussed.

Paul Cain is one of the founders of Manifest Sons of God theology and the disciple of William Branham, who personally mentored Paul Cain.

Cain in turn, mentored The KCF Prophets, John Wimber, Jack Deere, C. Peter Wagner and many others. Paul Cain denies the Trinity as did William Branham.


Seeker

[seeker42]

If they truly believe in their hearts that Jesus is coming to stand by them, in the flesh, how can this be an error? It certainly doesn't seem to fall into the "another gospel" category so it's not false doctrine.

If they truly believe in their hearts that Jesus is coming to stand by them, in the flesh, how can this be an error?

Because the appearance of Jesus is an Objective Reality, not a Subjective experience. Just because a person either thinks that Jesus appeared to them, or claims that Jesus appeared to them, does not mean that Jesus Christ actually did.

This world is filled with people who claim to have heard from Jesus, and then proceed to state something that contradicts the Bible. But we know which Jesus is the real one. He is the real one who left those words in the Bible. THAT is the real Jesus, and we must measure all other claims according to the Bible.

Jesus himself said that many would come in his name, falsely claming to be him:

Mark 13:5
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Luke 21: 8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


We must be careful to evaluate the claims of those who proclaim that Jesus is their messenger, especially when their New Jesus is contradicting the message of the Jesus of the Bible. There can only be one Jesus with one message. The Bible is the Revelation from God and there can be no message which would contradict it. If a message did - it would have to be a counterfeit message. God does not contradict himself.

It certainly doesn't seem to fall into the "another gospel" category so it's not false doctrine.

It's not perhaps in the category of an "Obvious" false message, but just because someone uses Christian terms and Christian reference points does not automatically mean that they have sound and accurate doctrine. That is why the Bible says that we must carefully study the Bible and become very familiar with it, so that we can then have a stronger basis by which to understand and discern and compare the teachings that are being proclaimed, to what the Bible teaches.

Seeker

[seeker42]

even those with "sound" theology (sound I asume meaning cessationist)

For the record, I am Not a cessationist. I do believe that the gifts are for today.

Sound doctrine in this case...means;

- Not denying that Jesus is the Christ

- Not denying the Trinity

- Not placing the words of William Branham above the Bible

- Not placing the words of Paul Cain above the Bible

- Not treating Paul Cain as if he were an Old Testament Prophet

- Not affirming that we can become divine in the same sense that Jesus is.

- Not insisting that William Branham is going to be raised from the Dead within 40 days of his physical death

[but Branham's followers did affirm this. And so when Branham died...in the field, they actually left him there...for 40 days --but nothing much happened...nothing divine to be sure...so they had finally to bury him and thereby affirm that Branham's own prophecies about himself were False...which made him a False Prophet, though this had been affirmed before...by the Assemblies of God, who kicked him out of their denomination]

IF a person would abstain from those heresies, at least it might not hasten the conclusion that they have departed from sound doctrine. Since those (listed above) are the teachings of Paul Cain and Branham, I hope that explains better what is meant by "Sound Doctrine" or the absence of it.


Seeker

[holyspiritvesse]

All these here: Cain, Joyner, Deere, believe in the 5 fold ministry in the end times and that they are the newest apostles, and that through them, they will do more amazing things than Jesus ever did.

And that Jesus is not coming back until we are all in sync with their revival, that we have to be a spotless bride - through unity of faith before Jesus can return.

IOW, we aren't spotless enough for Jesus to come yet.

[cindyw]

Like seeker said Paul Crouch is the head of Trinity Broadcasting. When I posted this, I thought that's who this was about :doh I didn't know who Paul Cain was until I did some more checking online. Silly me. It appears BOTH these men (one seemingly proven) may have a track record of drinking and homosexuality. I guess that's where I was confused.

[onesheep]

All these here: Cain, Joyner, Deere, believe in the 5 fold ministry in the end times and that they are the newest apostles, and that through them, they will do more amazing things than Jesus ever did.

And that Jesus is not coming back until we are all in sync with their revival, that we have to be a spotless bride - through unity of faith before Jesus can return.

IOW, we aren't spotless enough for Jesus to come yet. :twitch :twitch :(:

[psykon99]

Paul Cain denies the Trinity as did William Branham.


I welcome quotes backing up this claim.


Sound doctrine in this case...means;

- Not denying that Jesus is the Christ

- Not denying the Trinity

- Not placing the words of William Branham above the Bible

- Not placing the words of Paul Cain above the Bible

- Not treating Paul Cain as if he were an Old Testament Prophet

- Not affirming that we can become divine in the same sense that Jesus is.

- Not insisting that William Branham is going to be raised from the Dead within 40 days of his physical death


Again, quotes? I'm more concerned w/ Paul Cain, Jack Deere, and Wimber than with Joyner and the rest.

[seeker42]

Paul Cain denies the Trinity as did William Branham.

Spend 10 minutes doing searches on the Internet.

[seeker42]

P.S: YOu can also find plenty here in the threads by searching using their names as keywords.

[seeker42]

Here you go:

http://www.banner.org.uk/articles.html


Happy reading.

-

[onsolidrock]

William Branham believed thes things

1. Eve had sex with the serpent in the garden of eden and conceived Cain.

2. Adam conceived Abel [at least that is true]

3. Cain and Abel were twins

4. Decendants of Cain are of the devil and cannot be saved.

5. The serpent was the missing link between man and ape.

6. Eternal punishment only lasts two million years.

7. William Branham claimed to be a prophet of God for the end times on the same level as the two witnesses in Rev. 11.

[onsolidrock]

And, oh yes, he was a oneness Pentecostal. That position denies the trinity.

[holyspiritvesse]

When I said they were part of the 5 fold ministry, I meant part of the Latter Rain Movement too.

There are LOTS of sites that describe the errors and false doctrine of the Latter Rain Movement.

[KayB]

I don't know much about these people but I read Joyners book "Two trees in the Garden" and it had some excellent points. Its been so long ago I couldn't really say much else about it except I felt blessed at the time I was reading it and still remember one of the main points which is that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a "bad" tree (just forbidden at that time) and that the knowledge of both good and evil had consequences. He makes the point that even the knowledge of GOOD, apart from God is death to us. IT is self-righteousness which is every bit as bad a fruit as unrighteousness. At least that is what I remember getting out of it.

I've never heard of Paul Cain before this post.

[onesheep]

When I said they were part of the 5 fold ministry, I meant part of the Latter Rain Movement too.

There are LOTS of sites that describe the errors and false doctrine of the Latter Rain Movement.
Ah. Nuff said.

[psykon99]

Here you go:

http://www.banner.org.uk/articles.html


Happy reading.


I didn't find any statements made by Cain, Deere, or Wimber. Just third party articles about them. I want quotes. Preferrably in context.

[psykon99]

Ah. Nuff said.


There you go. That's the right idea. Because someone says they're part of a movement that that someone and perhaps you disagrees with then lump them up and throw them out!

[holyspiritvesse]

Do you believe in the Latter Rain Movement doctrine, psyk?

[cindyw]

Here's a good interview with Paul Cain: http://www.propheticroundtable.org/PaulCain/Interview.htm

[seeker42]

I didn't find any statements made by Cain, Deere, or Wimber.

Actually, the articles there are filled not only with quotes but with references as well. The "third parties" that are referred to (by you) are those who were part of the leadership teams that Wimber and Cain put together.

In addition that site has plenty of material on WoF and Vineyards, and Paul Cain and manifested sons of God.

One of the "articles" there is a 230 page report by the original Pastor from Kansas City who sounded the Alarm about the Kansas City Prophets back in the 1980s. It is filled with quotes by the Kansas City Prophets, all of whom were trained by Paul Cain.

I have visited those churches personally in Kansas city, where the KCF leaders were preaching and teaching.

I have heard those KCF (Mike Bickle, John Paul Jackson, etc) leaders speak in person.

I have heard Wimber speak in person

I have head Paul Cain speak in Person

I have read all of Wimber's books

I have also read the written reviews and critiques of Wimber when he was co-teaching courses with C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary.

I have read many books by the KCF leaders including Rick Joyner

I have read most of the books by C. Peter Wagner.


About Jack Deere, Jack Deere's material can be found in his own book on the Holy Spirit.




Those leaders are not bad because they disagree with me, and it is not "I" who is lumping them in together. THey all acknowledge each other as co leaders of their movement. All of them acknowledge that Paul Cain was their mentor.

Your words sounds like the fact of their being mentored by Paul Cain is a secret. IF it is, it must only be a secret kept from you, because everyone else knows it. Paul Cain used to speak at the churches of these guys (most of them had individual churches) very freqently, and he STILL speaks at many of their conventions. It's just not a secret, and no one is "lumping" these people into a category that they have not placed themselves in.

That kind of characterization just shows a lack of seriousness to find out the facts, and a lack of knowledge about the people that you apparently are defending.


These leaders are bad because they teach false doctrine. Paul cain is bad because he denies the trinity. And for the record, We cannot manifest our own Godhood, nor will Christians become the vengeful army of Joel 2 under the leadership of Paul Cain and his lieutenants, who are the main proponents of this view.


If you get the books of these leaders and their cassettes, and start to learn their theology, and the doctrines that they have in common, you will find that what they all share in common are the theological teachings of William Branham and Paul Cain.

I have noticed this before, that you seem to have trouble with research and finding material that others do not have trouble finding when they look for it, on this and other topics also. I can only hope that this will change in time.

I share what I know and provide Some of the places where you can find some of the research, if you are able to follow it up and do more for yourself. I only share my opinion, and some of the places where the information can be found. It is not up to me however to convince you, and if you wish to retain your old or current opinion, you go right ahead.

Even though you cannot find the information at that site, it is still there.



Seeker
:confused

[seeker42]

Here is the specific page at that website for the report by the Kansas City Pastor who exposed the Kansas City Prophets originally.

By the Way, he is a Pentacostal Pastor (but he was speaking the truth, must have been "lumping" all those nice heretics together - Imagine that BAD pastor, having the guts to stand up for truth and Jesus).

230 pages of report. ... that's probably "not reliable" either...

http://www.banner.org.uk/kcp/kcp-gruen.html


-

[seeker42]

A Good Article

Here is one of the articles that explains the LINKS between the teachings of Branham, Paul Cain, and the Kansas City prophets.


http://www.banner.org.uk/kcp/kcp-wineskins.html



It has 50 footnotes listed, in case you wanted to do your own research and follow up.

-

[seeker42]

Branhamism/William Branham
By Phillip Arnn

Founder: William Marrion Branham

Founding Date: Branham's Healing Ministry began May, 1946.

Official Publications: The Voice of God Recordings, Inc. (formerly Spoken Word Publications), produces numerous books, tapes and tracts - mostly the messages of Branham.

Organization Structure: The William Branham Evangelistic Association; Branham Tabernacle; The Voice of God Recordings, Inc. About 100 small groups meet worldwide, but there is no official association of churches.

Unique Terms: Laodicean Church Age, Seventh Angel's message, Mark of the Beast.

HISTORY
William Marrion Branham was born April 6, 1909 in the mountains of Kentucky. He was the first of nine children. His father was a logger and their first home was a dirt floor log cabin. Branham was told by his mother that his birth was accompanied by a supernatural sign. He was born in the predawn morning. He was told that when the small window of the cabin was opened, that a light stood in the opening. (Brother Branham, taped sermon transcript, p. 21).

Branham's life was intersected and influenced by numerous visions and angelic visitations. He recalled that at age seven, he heard a voice, "Well, I started up the lane again. And I turned to look at this again. And when it did, a human Voice just as audible as mine is, said, `Don't you never drink, smoke, or defile your body in any way. There'll be a work for you to do when you get older.' Why, it liked to scared me to death!" (Ibid., p. 24). Branham recounted other audible communications and visions that imparted to him specific information concerning future events which later came to pass.

Branham was converted around the age of twenty and married Hope Brumbach. His conversion was a result of a series of visions occurring during and after a life threatening illness (Acts of the Prophet, pp. 40-43).

In his early ministry, he came in contact with "Jesus-Only" Pentecostals. This sect broke away from the traditional Pentecostal movement denying the doctrine of the Trinity. He attended one of their national conventions and was invited to preach. A number of their ministers invited him to conduct revivals in their churches. He returned home and informed his wife, "Oh, I met the cream of the crop. It's the best you ever seen. Them people ain't ashamed of their religion" (Brother Branham, p. 39). Although he was persuaded not to continue the association by family and fellow ministers, Branham was greatly influenced by the "Jesus-Only" Pentecostal movement. He later adopted a number of their doctrinal views.

Branham's wife and baby daughter died in 1937 from Tubercular Meningitis. He felt that it was because he had not continued in fellowship with the Pentecostals and had missed God's will (Ibid., p. 47).

In 1946, Branham received what he came to call his "charge" from the recurrent audible voice. While baptizing converts in the Ohio River, he claims it happened. "And just then a whirl come from the heavens above, and here come that Light, shining down.... and It hung right over where I was at. A Voice spoke from there, and said, `As John the Baptist was sent for the forerunner of the first coming of < A HREF="../cat95.htm#Christ">Christ, you've got a... have a Message that will bring forth the forerunner of the Second Coming of Christ'" (Ibid., p. 71).

Not long after the commission as the forerunner of the second coming of Christ, Branham was visited by an angel. He was told that he was being given two ministry gifts. He would receive the gift of healing and the gift of the "word of knowledge." Branham came to believe that this angel was the source of all his visions. Branham inquired of the angel why he should believe he was an angel of God. The angel told him that the religious leaders of Christ's day had called Jesus a devil.

He should not worry about the opposition from family and fellow ministers. Branham had been told by fortune-tellers in impromptu meetings that he had a special gift of God and was born under a sign. The angel assured him that even devils had confirmed that Jesus was the Christ and not to be concerned by the testimony of fortune-tellers (Ibid., pp. 74, 75, 79).

The next Sunday Branham's first challenge, a woman dying with cancer, was brought before him. Just as the angel had said, he had a vision and prayed for the woman. She was healed. His fame spread far and wide (Ibid., p. 80). From that time forward, Branham claimed the angel was with him night and day. He stated that he was unable to minister unless the angel was at his side (Occult Bondage and Deliverance, pp. 49, 50).

Branham was a poorly educated man and had no formal Bible education. His ministry was proclaimed with alleged supernatural manifestations and empowered by a spirit being.

DOCTRINE

TRINITY: Like the "Jesus-Only" Pentecostals Branham denied the Trinity doctrine teaching a form of Modalism. Instead of three Persons in the Godhead, Branham taught that there was only one Person (Jesus) going under different titles or modes at various times in history. Branham's teaching is a variation of a second century heresy taught by Sabellius know as Modalistic Monarchianism or Patripassianism (see Monarchianism, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, pp. 727-28).

Branham explained, "...not one place in the Bible is trinity ever mentioned...It's Catholic error and you Protestants bow to it" (Conduct, Order, Doctrine Q and A, p. 182). "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is offices of one God. He was the Father; He was the Son; He is the Holy Ghost. It's three offices or three dispensations,..." (Ibid., p. 392). This view of the Godhead is called Modalism and has been held to be heretical by both Catholic and Protestant churches.

BAPTISM: Branham claimed that proper baptism was needed to avoid the "Mark of the Beast" of denominational churches and escape the danger of missing the rapture and entering the Tribulation. Proper baptism must be in the name of Jesus only. Baptism with the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:18 ("in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost") is unacceptable to God.

Branham explained, "There never was a person baptized in the name of `Father, Son, Holy Ghost' until early Catholic church" (Ibid., p. 178). "Look down on your Bible and see if that says `in the names of...' Does it? No, sir... It said, `in the NAME...'" Branham attempted to explain the distinction, "You see, you misunderstand it then. It's one God in three dispensations.... And when He said, `Go baptize them in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit,' it was Jesus Christ. And that's why we baptize in Jesus' Name" (Ibid., pp. 181, 184).
If an incorrect formula was spoken during baptism, Branham felt the convert would go into darkness. "But a tritheist, triune baptism was never recognized in the Church, the New Testament... Now you know what to do, that's right; and if you refuse to walk in Light when Light's brought forth, you turn to darkness. Right! Amen!" (Ibid., p. 190).

Other Doctrines


1) Serpent's Seed: Branham taught that Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3) was sexual in nature. According to Branham, Eve was seduced into a sexual relationship with the serpent and became pregnant with Cain. He explained, "Here is what actually happened in the Garden of Eden. The Word says that Eve was beguiled by the serpent. She was actually seduced by the serpent. He was as close to being a human that his seed could, and did mingle with that of the woman and cause her to conceive" (The Original Sin, pp. 2, 3). The serpent's seed was Cain and all his descendants. They are predestined for Hell. The Godly seed is Seth and his descendants who have been revealed by their call to Branham's ministry. A third group, represented by those still in denominational churches have free will to choose Heaven or Hell. The Godly seed are the Bride of Christ and will be raptured before Tribulation. Denominations are or eventually will be the Mark of the Beast and those who remain therein will go through the Tribulation. (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, p. 96).

2) Last Days Prophet: Branham's followers claim that he held a special role as God's uniquely empowered end-time prophet. "Now, I'm just your brother, by the grace of God. But when the Angel of the Lord moves down, it becomes then a Voice of God to you...But I am God's Voice to you... Now, see, I can say nothing in myself. But what He shows me" (Footprints On The Sands Of Time, p. 214). The angelic visitor told Branham that he would be given two gifts and that he would restore Bible truth.

Branham's followers identified him as the prophetic Elijah of Malachi 4 and the seventh angel of Revelation 10. Speaking of himself, Branham said, "...we are promised a return of that Spirit [Elijah] just before the end-time. He won't start another church, because there is no more church ages to come... because the Laodicea Church Age is the last age, and the messenger of the Seventh Angel,... is the fellow that is going to reveal, by the Holy Spirit, all of these mysterious things.... Notice. This last message of the last church age is not a reformer, he is a PROPHET!" (The Seven Seals, pp. 144, 45).

According to his disciples, Branham is not just a prophet but a major prophet. "A MAN SENT FROM GOD. That the ministry of William Branham qualifies to be that of a major prophet and thus fulfill Malachi 4, 5 and 6 and Revelation 10:7 should become abundantly clear to any who take time to conduct even a brief investigation..." (The Message, Bible Believers, Inc., p. 7).

BIBLICAL RESPONSE

1) The Trinity doctrine cannot be fully comprehended by finite man. However, any other view of the Godhead will not satisfy God's self revelation in Scripture. Modalism teaches that there is only one Person in the Godhead functioning through relational "modes." When He is in the Father mode, the Son and Spirit modes are not functional. In Matthew 3:13-17, however, the Son is baptized, the Spirit descends and the Father speaks. Also, "in the name of" (Matthew 28:19) or in the authority of does not limit the nature of God's unity to one Person but connotes equality of essence within the Godhead (2 Corinthians 13:14).

2) Baptism in the name of Jesus only may have been the early practice in the Jerusalem church. However, all manuscripts of Matthew 28:19 have the Trinitarian formula as being commissioned by Jesus. One document, dating from A.D. 60, the Didache, prescribes the Matthew formula (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) for baptism within the church. Regardless of the formula, baptism is not a requirement for being raptured or avoiding the Tribulation. Full salvation is by grace though faith and not of works such as baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9).


3) The Serpent's Seed doctrine is an improper interpretation of Genesis 3 that is allegorical and arbitrary. Eve's sin was not sexual. She partook of literal fruit from a literal tree. Adam also partook of the same fruit as Eve (Genesis 3:6). This is not a reference to sexual sin. The Serpent's Seed doctrine artificially limits the atonement by race or genetics. While it is true that most of humanity will not benefit from the sacrificial death of Christ (Matthew 7:13-14), Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Christ's atonement is not limited to a certain family or race of people.

The Serpent's Seed doctrine did not originate with Branham. Branham's version of the doctrine parallels the racist views of some groups within the Identity movement and the speculative philosophies of Sun Myung Moon.

4) In light of claims that Branham was God's end-time prophet, it is significant that he falsely predicted that America would be destroyed in 1977 (The Seven Church Ages, p. 322). Branham was guilty of false prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). While he tried to call it a prediction rather than a prophecy (without explaining the difference), he firmly stressed that the 1977 date was based on his thirty year study of the Bible and "Divine inspiration." Branham's ministry and claims were supported by alleged supernatural verification. Signs and wonders, however, are not infallible proofs. Many conflicting sects and ideologies boast similar subjective "proofs" (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Matthew 12:39, 24:24, Hebrews 1:1, I John 4:1-3).

RESOURCES
1) Oneness Pentecostals & The Trinity. Gregory A. Boyd. This work focuses on the movement which greatly influenced William Branham. The issues of Modalism, the One Name, baptismal regeneration and others are examined. 234 pages. $12.

http://www.watchman.org/profile/branpro.htm

[seeker42]

I put the sources in Bold. I hope they can be identified. Its amazing what one can find. I typed in the words "William Branham" and "Trinity" on the Internet.

Not Even...10 minutes

[seeker42]

Just out of curiosity, what does Branham's family say about him ?

Do they acknowledge that Branhams views were false ? Do they claim him as a leading influence among certain branches of the charismatic movement ? Do they acknowledge that his teachings were contrary to the Bible ?

No, here is what they say:

Not since Bible days has the world witnessed anything that can be compared to the ministry of Brother Branham. When he appeared on the national scene in 1946, it produced a spark that ignited a period of great healing revivals that swept across America and around the world.

To this day, he is acknowledged by Christian historians as the “father” and “pacesetter” of the 1950s healing revival that transformed the Pentecostals and ultimately gave rise to the Charismatic movement, which today influences nearly every Protestant denomination.*

For twenty years, and before millions of people, William Branham demonstrated the Gift of Discernment and the Word of Knowledge (knowing the secrets of a person’s heart) with an unerring accuracy that had never before been seen, and has never since been duplicated.

His healing ministry was legendary, yet in the opinion of many, he wasted the great gift that God had given him by trying to preach. Few church leaders were able to see past his lack of education and recognize the purpose of the gift, which was not to attract attention to the man, but to the Word that was being restored. The promise of Matthew 17:11 was being fulfilled: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.”

There was a reason why God chose William Branham to be His Voice to this generation. He was a man who was not shaped to a theological conformity or influenced by denominational barriers, therefore he did not hesitate to point people away from all man-made creeds and traditions, and back to the original Word, just as it was taught by the apostolic fathers. He had no ambitions or agendas of his own, choosing instead to remain a humble servant of God, never aspiring to a lavish lifestyle or promoting himself above others. He lived his life in total surrender to the leadership of the Holy Ghost.

The profound anointing that surrounded his ministry, and the extraordinary demonstrations of the supernatural that occurred throughout his lifetime clearly identified him as a God-ordained prophet.

http://www.branham.org/BranhamDefault.asp?Home=WilliamBranham&LoadPageDetail=WilliamBranham.htm

All that exhaustive research...took at least 3 minutes on the net....

[Christine]

Quotes and teachings by Paul Cain:

http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=aquote&id=4

[markofthebest]

I don't agree with Joyner's theology, but I do believe he has done the right thing here.

BTW, my husbands name is Rick Joyner, and he received emails for the other Rick a lot...people wanting dreams interpereted, etc....weird stuff.

[psykon99]

Do you believe in the Latter Rain Movement doctrine, psyk?


Actually, not much of it. I do believe that all the gifts are for today though. I guess you could classify me as a very conservative quasy charismatic.

I just don't like the "jump to judgment rather than sorrow and prayer" attitude I found on this board.

[psykon99]

Seeker,
I will examine what you have posted. I followed the link from the other night, but all I really found were CRI third party papers. Perhaps a direct link next time like the others above?

I am very familiar with Jack Deere. I know where he stands and to be honest, I don't have a problem with him. I don't agree w/ him on every issue, but I think he's mostly sound.

Most of what I know about Cain comes from statements by Wimber and Deere (mostly Deere). That's why I asked for direct quotes.

I know people are very quick to jump on the "heresy hunting" band wagon. That's what I prefer direct quotes when it comes to accusations like the ones you've made.

So you know, I'm not so much defending the man as much as I am trying to give him a fair shake here on this board, especially w/ regard to his mistakes.

I'm very disappointed in how quick everyone was to just disregard him as a false prophet/heretical man and therefore it doesn't really matter how we feel about him. Disdain? Okay! Sounds good! Let's throw him out with everyone else!

I don't find it very Christlike to condemn another brother in Christ that way, and then take it as an opportunity to bash whole groups of believers whether or not they associate themselves directly with the individual in question.

[billiefan2000]

Quotes and teachings by Paul Cain:

http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=aquote&id=4


http://myfortress.org/PaulCain.html

also has more info on Paul Cain


http://myfortress.org/RickJoyner.html

has info on Rick Joyner by the way.


psykon99,I know who Jack Deere is:

Jack Deere has said the following:


"You see why we're excited about someone like Paul Cain or Bob Jones coming on the scene?

Or others that we've met…you know those two powerful witnesses in Revelation 11:3?


You know what they are, first and foremost? They are prophets. He said they will prophesy for 1,260 days. He's going to end the last days just before His Son returns with a prophetic movement that will sweep the entire face of the earth and will eclipse anything we have ever seen before…the significance of these signs and wonders…But they don't just happen on the earth. They come because they are prayed for and they are predicted by God's people.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://myfortress.org/JackDeere.html

But you know what? God is in the process of offending our minds in order to reveal our hearts. And I don't know any place where he's going to give us a pure ministry. I don't know any place where it's going to be 100 percent right. There's going to be stumbling blocks in every ministry that the Holy Spirit is really responsible for."

[seeker42]

but all I really found were CRI third party papers. Perhaps a direct link next time like the others above?

Ok. I will work on that in some of the future posts.


Seeker
:):

[psykon99]

Ok. I will work on that in some of the future posts.


Thanks much! :)

[seeker42]

Jack Deere used to be a seminary professor. He left in order to adopt the theology of Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets (who had previously adopted the theology of Paul Cain).

I'm very disappointed in how quick everyone was to just disregard him as a false prophet/heretical man and therefore it doesn't really matter how we feel about him. Disdain? Okay! Sounds good! Let's throw him out with everyone else!

This is an innacurate and innapropriate characterization of what has happened. The reaosn why Jack Deere gets classifed as a false prophet is because he IS one.

1. Deere is the one who went to work with Paul Cain

2. Deere accepted to be mentored by Paul Cain (and this is a surprise to no one. This is not some secret. If you claim to know about Jack Deere, then you know that this is accurate)

3. Deere started teaching andco teaching courses (http://www.melbourneinternational.com/speakers.html) with Kansas City Prophets and also in the schools that they and Paul Cain had established.

4. Would you be willing to teach a course with Joseph Smith ?
If you worked with Joseph Smith, accepted his teachings, promoted his teachings, and told others that Josephe Smith was a man of God, what observations would others be able to make about you ???

Either Paul Cain AND Jack Deere is right that Revelation can replace the Bible and speak on a Par (the equivalent of the Bible) or 2000 years of Christianity is right.
They cannot BOTH be right since they hold to contradictory positions.

Either Paul Cain is a false Prophet who needs to be exposed, or Christianity is wrong for 2000 years.

Either Paul Cain has the authority to receive special revelations about GOD that contradict Christianity or he does not. Jack Deere (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/d03.html) by working with Paul Cain, affirms the legitimacy of Paul Cain.

Please note the Following Paragraph

(Dr. Jack Deere taught at Dallas Theological Seminary for 11 years, then served as associate pastor at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Anaheim, California. While based in California he traveled with John Wimber and Paul Cain in a conference ministry. Jack, his wife Leesa, and three children are presently living in Fort Worth, Texas. He devotes his time to writing and a national and international conference ministry with Paul Cain.)

http://www.upstreamca.org/passion_deere.html


The fact of affirming the Legitimacy of a false prophet means that the person who is doing the affirming is a teacher of False Doctrine, whether they know it or now.

IF someone came up and started to promote the virtues and theology of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, all those who are true Christians would be entirely accurate in pointing out the Heretical teachings of these FALSE teachers. They are FALSE Prophets.

Paul Cain is the living definition of what the Bible teaches us to STAY AWAY FROM.

Jack Deere Embraces Paul Cain and his theology (even if Deere did not embrace the Homosexuality of Paul Cain).


When you believe that you can become God, then you make up your own rules. This is what Paul Cain believes. It is what William Branham also believed. It is a false teaching.

If you are working with darkness and walking in darkness, there will be a point that you can easily become attuned to the wrong voice, the wrong theology and the wrong message. THat is what Jack Deere has done.

ANd Jack Deere today (even though he still works at a few churches) has a problem with others wanting to hire him because they know that Deere's theology is a contradiction to 2000 years of Christian Theology.

Paul Cain IS a False Prophet and Jack Deere is his willling accomplice. IN addition, by working with Paul Cain, and the Kansas City Prophets, Deere lends his own former legitimacy to them.

The Kansas City Prophets today STILL believe that they are having visions and revelations from God. Those visions form the basis for their own theology.

THat theology is a direct contradiction to the Bible. IT was a contradiction 20 years Ago when it was refuted at that time. It is STILL a contradiction today. And just like Paul Cain, the Kansas city Prophets place their own revelation and prophecies ABOVE scripture.

Those who attempt to represent traditional historic Christianity and those who represent the Kansas City Prophets and Paul Cain - nevertheless both agree on this ONE point:

THat Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets are receiving prophecies, and visions from disembodied spirits.

The Difference is that Paul Cain & Co (including Jack Deere) allege that those spirits are angelic, while those who represent traditional historic Christianity have accurately characterized those spirits giving messages to Paul Cain & Co as DEMONIC.

Paul Cain and his followers take their marching orders from DEMONS.

That is not true because I or others say so. It is true because when we look at the theology and statements of Cain & Co, they give us instructions and teachings that are contradictions to what the Bible teaches.

When you walk with false prophets, you teach with them, you accept instructions from them, you agree to lead other to those false prophets and to their congregations, and you continue to promote them, you are going to be ACCURATELY characterized as a FALSE teacher.

The person who initiated the statement about Paul Cain was Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle and Jack Deere.

It was Jack Deere who decided to associate his name with those he is currently working with.

The characterization of Jack Deere as a False Prophet, a man who has DEPARTED from Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ - is a FAITHFUL and ACCURATE characterization of Jack Deere.


Seeker

[seeker42]

I am very familiar with Jack Deere. I know where he stands and to be honest, I don't have a problem with him. I don't agree w/ him on every issue, but I think he's mostly sound.

Are you really THAT familiar with Jack Deere ? Have you obtained his tapes ? Have you listened to what he teaches ? Have you listened to his defense and his endorsements of the teachings of Paul Cain ?

ARe you familiar with what Jack Deere taught while he was in Texas working with Paul Cain ? Are you familiar with what Jack Deere teaches at the churches he worked at in Kansas City ?

Either there is a problem with your lack of knowledge about Jack Deere or there is a problem with your theology about Jack Deere, Paul Cain, standard historic Christian hermeneutics, and the teachings known as the Manifested Sons of God (which is what Paul Cain teaches).

This is what I meant before about a "lack of research". An interesting point about John Wimber is that he was mentored by BOTH C. Peter Wagner AND Paul Cain. (Wimber also co-taught courses with C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary).

One of the more interesting aspects of all of this is that the Kansas City Prophets teach replacement theology. THey not only teach that the church is the Actual and Active replacement for the state of Israel when it comes to the blessings and intentions of God, they teach that their own movement is the Exclusive replacement to the historic Christian churches. This is BOTH Anti-Israel AND Anti-Christian.

Those who sit under the leadership and teaching of these prophets will also be and become advocates of Replacement theology. That is a direct consequence of Paul Cain and those who promote him like Jack Deere.

Seeker

[seeker42]

Jack Deere, a graduate of Dallas Seminary was, until recently, the primary theologian in the Vineyard churches, having forsaken much of the theology taught at Dallas. John Wimber, who mentored Jack Deere away from sound biblical doctrine into experiential theology, nonetheless depended upon Jack Deere for advice on matters of doctrine in how to counter objections to the weird manifestations in the Vineyard/Toronto movement. Jack Deere later left to join the First Presbyterian Church in Whitefish, Montana. After some problems arose at this church, Jack Deere resigned from the Pastorship on June 20, 1996. On March 11, 1997. His association with the Presbyterian church was ended when he renounced jurisdiction of the Presbytery of Glacier.

Jack Deere is now the director of Grace Training Center and an instructor in Biblical studies at the Metro Christian Fellowship (formally Kansas City Vineyard) as well as an associate pastor at a (a) church in Amarillo, TX. (a) we removed the word vineyard, the church is not a vineyard church.


Jack Deere said: "You see why we're excited about someone like Paul Cain or Bob Jones coming on the scene? Or others that we've met…you know those two powerful witnesses in Revelation 11:3? You know what they are, first and foremost? They are prophets. He said they will prophesy for 1,260 days. He's going to end the last days just before His Son returns with a prophetic movement that will sweep the entire face of the earth and will eclipse anything we have ever seen before…the significance of these signs and wonders…But they don't just happen on the earth. They come because they are prayed for and they are predicted by God's people." ("Joel’s Army," op. cit., Jewel van der Merwe.)

This is Jack Deere promoting the Theology of Paul Cain/Rick Joyner on Joel's Army. This is saying - if you know about the actual teachings of Cain & Joyner - That Joel's Army will be under the control of Paul Cain. the Statement is ALSO an endorsement of the new Prophetic Ministries that C. Peter Wagner has worked so hard to establish. If you do not know the background and the theology of these teachers on a deep level, you will not understand the context within which to explain what they are saying.
There is also an equivalence being suggested between the accuracy of the two witnesses in Revelation, and the accuracy of Paul Cain.

more at
http://www.cephasministry.com/jack_deere.html

[seeker42]

Jack Deere's Doctrinal Confusion
by Deception In The Church, 1999


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to mentors like John Wimber, C. Peter Wagner, Chuck Kraft from Fuller as well as Paul Cain and others, Jack Deere had his orthodox view of theology systematically dismantled. He then became instrumental in introducing the Third Wave to millions of Christians who trusted him because he had been a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary through his books "Surprised By The Power Of The Spirit" and "Surprised By The Voice Of God." Though these books have some precious truths in them, they also contain heresy. That is how false teachers ply their trade. They lay error alongside truth so that the unsuspecting and undiscerning will not be able to tell the difference between what is true and what is not. Following are a few examples of just how far away from orthodoxy Deere has gone.

The Gospel

In 1990, at a Charismatic Conference in the States, where Wimber and Deere were the speakers, Dr. Deere was questioned in a friendly conversation, as follows:

Questioner: I wonder if you might tell me why you felt my explanation of the Gospel given yesterday was
defective. [I said that Christ died for our sins, was buried, raised on the third day, and that it is this
Gospel by which we are saved.]

Dr. Deere: I am not prepared to talk about that.

Questioner: Well, just offhand, what do you think the Gospel is?

Dr. Deere: I am not prepared to make a formal statement about that.

Questioner: Could you tell me informally what the Gospel is?

Dr. Deere: I am not sure.

Questioner: I find that surprising -- that you are not sure just what the Gospel is.

Dr. Deere: I used to be just like you -- thinking the Gospel was simply justification.

Questioner: Are you saying that the Gospel is more than justification by faith?

Dr. Deere: Yes.

Questioner: What would you add to it?

Dr. Deere: Deliverance.

Questioner: What do you mean by deliverance?

Dr. Deere: Things like demons and healing and....

Questioner: You would add as an essential part of the saving Gospel things like exorcising of demons and
healing?

Dr. Deere: Yes.

Questioner: But you are not sure exactly what should be included?

Dr. Deere: No, not yet.

Questioner: Would it be fair to say that you are in a state of flux since joining the Wimber thing?

Dr. Deere: We are always in a state of flux -- you are....

Questioner: But in the Gospel message? Surely that is one thing we should have worked out. Don't you
think we can reduce the Gospel to some sort of summary statement like Paul does in say 1 Corinthians 1
and 2, or 15; or 1 Thessalonians 4, or Romans 5?

Dr. Deere: [No response, except a shrug of the shoulders.]

Questioner: Do you think the Apostle Paul had anything particular in mind when he wrote to Timothy and
asked him to guard the Gospel that had been entrusted to him? Are you saying that you couldn't go back
into that pavilion and tell those people the Gospel?

Dr. Deere: No, not yet.

Questioner: When do you think you could do it?

Dr. Deere: Maybe five years, maybe ten....

(From Biblical Perspectives, July-Aug. 1990, p. 5. taken from the original interview by Graham Bannister for "The
Breifing", April 24, 1990 (45/46))

OT Exegesis

In Biblical Perspectives, Sept.-Aug. 1990, p. 3, Dr. Thomas Ice reported that "Dr. Jack Deere gave a message entitled "Joel's Army" -- his explanation of what the Church is going to be like in just a few years:

Heretofore in history we have only had one Moses on the scene. Only one Elijah, and only one Elisha at a
time. Among the Apostles we only have one Paul, one John, one Peter -- a few of those were really
outstanding.

Heretofore we have only had one or two mighty servants of God on the face of the earth at a time. This is
not true any longer! When this army comes, Joel says, there will have been nothing like it before.
Revelation hints at this when it talks about the 144,000 that follow the Lamb wherever He goes. A
powerful Army with many Pauls, and many Moseses, and many Davids.

"Dr. Deere is saying that the soon-coming Latter Rain revival will be carried out by those who are in "Joel's Army," which he also equates with the 144,000 witnesses from Revelation 7. Dr. Deere has gone a long way from what he was as one of my Hebrew professors at Dallas Seminary!"

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/deere.html

[seeker42]

Did you catch this ?

YOu have a man who claims to be a leader, a man who claims to work with those who hear the voice of God.

This is a man who is STILL a Pastor today, who is STILL a teacher today (http://www.wagnerleadership.org/schedule.phtml).

But what is his position on Jesus Christ, and on the Gospel ?

Questioner: Well, just offhand, what do you think the Gospel is?

Dr. Deere: I am not prepared to make a formal statement about that.

Questioner: Could you tell me informally what the Gospel is?

Dr. Deere: I am not sure



And you say that you know the theology of Jack Deere, and you say that you think he is mostly sound. Is this your definition of mostly sound ?

ANd when others - because they HAVE done the research on Jack Deere - then conclude certain things about you because of what you have said about him, what then ?

Should you have the responsibility for your words and your statements ??

Are You comfortable with where Jack Deere is leading people, and with the leaders that he suggests that other young Christians should seek out and follow ?

Is that Your definition of sound doctrine and sound teachings ?

You seem to have a problem with the fact that some people are identified as false teachers. If this is done innacurately, then anyone would be right to have a problem with this.

On the other hand, if this is being done accurately, as in the case of Jack Deere, to have a problem with the data may suggest something about the Recipient, the person who reads the information and either does not understand it or refuses to accept it.

Millions of other people have no problem with false teachers. They refuse to closely study their beliefs, they are totallly ignorant of how to find out what they believe, and they simply give their leaders the benefit of the doubt instead of comparing those teachings to the Bible. THat is a Sure way to become deceived.

IN the day of the Real Apostles (not the fake ones of Paul Cain), the Christians at that time Refused to AUTOMATICALLY accept what the true apostles of Christ were teaching, until they had compared those teachings to the Old Testament to see "whether these things be so".

If this comparison to the Bible was done in the case of Paul Cain, and Jack Deere on a personal level looking at the details of their theology, how likely is it...that you would still have a problem - with others who have categorized Jack Deere as a false teacher ?

I'm very disappointed in how quick everyone was to just disregard him as a false prophet/heretical man and therefore it doesn't really matter how we feel about him. Disdain? Okay! Sounds good! Let's throw him out with everyone else!


It may have looked that way to you. But when you get into the details, it is really not that way... Its not the problems with the messengers when they accurately point out that the teachings of Jack Deere are at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the True Gospel

[seeker42]

I just don't like the "jump to judgment rather than sorrow and prayer" attitude I found on this board.

But it sounds as though you are jumping to judgement...about those whom you have concluded have "jumped to judgement".

This is what often happens when people are not use to the process of deciding to evaluate the teachings of Christian leaders to find out IF their teachings line up and agree with the Bible.

How are you able to decide that people jumped to judgement rather than sorrow or prayer ?

How do you know what they pray for...or what breaks their heart ?

How do you know how many friends they have had destroyed by Paul Cain's theology, or how many of their friends decided to stop following Jesus and started to follow Paul Cain ?

What Good does it do to inform you or others of the sorrow of their heart ?

THey are free to disclose what they chose. But what will convince others is not the sorrow of their heart, but rather their ability to demonstrate that their evaluations of the teachings and teachers in question...[show that those false teachers] do not Match up with the teachings of the Bible. that is ONLY what every other Christian should ALSO be doing.

It is the MINIMUM definition of what it means to attempt to strive towards maturity in Christ. Maturity in Christ is maturity in Doctrine. THere is not one without the other.

(I wonder if we did not just loose about 10% of the lurkers who remain committed to their own laziness and lack of spiritual growth). Thankfully the other 90% may... not respond in that manner.


Many Christians today think that if something is just called "Christian" that this means it is automatically okay. That is TOTALLY false. The Bible says that we are personally to compare and FIND OUT, and that others CAN deceive even sincere Christians, and that Sincerity is ZERO garantee against being deceived.

Most of these baby Christians are so ignorant of the Bible - that IF they are saved - they have a problem with evaluating the doctrines and teachings of others. Yet Paul said The Spiritual Man Judgeth ALL THINGS.

The Bible teaches that in the last days, MANY will come IN MY NAME, meaning that many will come claiming to speak on behalf of Jesus that will not be speaking for Jesus at all.

Do you realize that it is VERY Possible to 1) think you are a christian 2) think that you are accepting teachings found in the Bible, but 3) NOT know what the Bible actually says, and die in your sins and be Eternally Condemned and Eternally SEPARATED from GOD ? FOR EVER ?

Many people think that if they are sincere that THIS is what counts. THat seems to be the operational premise about Jack Deere (or of many teachers like him in many cases)

After all, it is not that Jack Deere is Theologically Sound, IT is not even that Jack Deere is "saved". It is that Jack Deere...is SINCERE.


Just for the record, Many people are sincere. Being sincere means NOTHING. Show me where GOD anywhere Values Sincerity.

THe ONLY sincerity that God values is that IF you are truly Seeking God, then HE will lead you to find him and to find the teachings of the Bible.

There is a GREAT DISTANCE between the inclination of the heart towards sincerity and GOD, and the person actually picking up the Bible and learning to read the Gospel of John (or Mark) in it, and THEN responding to those teachings.

IF a person is Sincere, and makes it 50% of the way, and finds themselves in a Church directed by PAul CAIN, do you think that they will go the REST of the distance and then also find that what Paul Cain teaches is TOTALLY CONTRARY to the teachings of Jesus Christ ? and then that they will respond in obedience to God and LEAVE That Church so that they can have a better opportunity of learning what the Bible actually has to say ?

Because while some will be saved even if they are in a Paul Cain church, the greater majority will still be just as much on their way to Hell by accepting and following the teachings of Paul Cain who is teaching that all of us can become Christ if only we learn to manifest our own Godhood (which is a False teaching extremely offensive to God).

People think that if they follow a teacher and that the teacher turns out to be wrong, that God will give them a Free Pass, and that God will excuse their own False Understanding - which they received under that false teacher.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH !


Each of us is held - by God - to be personally responsible for what we Believe, and for the consequences of that Belief.

God does not hold OTHERS responsible for what we - decide to believe. WE are the ones - each one of us Personally - as Individuals - who will be held responsible for what we believe.


I know of No One here who is HAPPY about having to point out that those who claim to be teachers of truth (like Paul Cain and Jack Deere) are teachers of False doctrines and Heresy.


I know of no one who wants to say that the sign of authentic Christianity is that there are those who are misrepresenting what Christianity is.

I know of no one here who has a sense of "easy-ness" or a Rush To Judgement about the false teachings that they point out...that others have.

The fact is that most of the people who ARE pointing out the false teachings - would much rather be doing something else ! They would prefer to be relaxing, and to simply ignore the spiritual direction that they know that others are taking.

But because the Love of Christ constrains them, because they actually DO care about the wellbeing of others, they care enough to contradict them, they care enough to Offend them, they care enough to anger others...not because they desire to provoke those emotions, but because their Motives are to HELP others find Truth and personal Strength and Maturity in Jesus Christ and a better relationship with Him.


I am amazed sometimes by the comments of those who think that the ones who are pointing out False teachings are either doing this "gleefully" or somehow not paying a very high personal price Already for doing this.

I wonder WHY people who think that this is taking place...cannot seem to find the "Search" feature that appears on literally EVERY single page at this board, and to search the threads on these topics, so that the process by which those threads and those conversations originated...can be discovered and understood.

IN 99% of the cases, THAT would show and demonstrate the Motives of those who are exposing those false teachers.


The fact is that it takes Dozens of Hours - EVERY WEEK - (WEEK AFTER WEEK) - to constantly be talking about those false teachers, and to constantly be suggesting to others questions such as :

HAve you done the research ?

Do you know the facts ?

Have you FULLY researched this ?

Have you compared those teachings to the Bible ?

Are you personally familiar with how to find the right answers in the Bible ?

Do you understand the importance of Sound Doctrine ?

Do you really know the REAL Jesus Christ, and not one of the thousands of Countefeits out there ?

Do you KNOW the process for finding a good church ?

Do you know the process for evaluating whether or not a Pastor is truly a man of God or not ?



After all, those who are raising these questions (for others), and pointing these issues out have ALREADY found the answers for themselves. They derive very little benefit from the exercise of doing this for others.

In most cases, the conversations that they express a willingness to have... are NOT the result of a motive for their own Self-Development.

The ones who raise the questions or expose the false teachers have already FOUND the answers that others are Still seeking. THey have already DONE the research. They have already Located the documentation. THey have already Worked through the issues.

ANd to do this for one week is exiting...to do this for one month is interesting...after that, believe me, its not nearly that exiting...

To keep having the same conversation ...over and over and over and over and over....

and yet knowing that the people with whom the conversation is held experiences THAT conversation as though it were New to them...because in many cases, it IS.


Why Do this ? Why help others find the answers ? Most of the time, its not for the Attention. There are much easier ways to get attention. Why bother to say anthing to offend anyone under any circumstances ?

IF attention were the goal, the solution is the reverse: simply agree with others in the acceptance of the false teachings...show "unity" and common cause...Unity in Diversity...go with the Flow...we are the world...we are the children...



The point is not that everyone should think greatly of those who point out false teachings or false teachers. The point is to realize that those who undertake that activity here, also usually undertake that activity on several Other sites also.

In other words, if you think it can be work to do that on one board, try to replicate that effort accross two or three boards, or seven or eight.

But the point is that those people are engaged in being Light, in helping to clarify what is TRUTH for the Path of OThers, for the comfort of others for the Help of others.

When Jesus said that we are to bear the burdens of others, THAT is what he was talking about, or at least is is one example.

In the meantime, those who ARE young Christians ALSO have a responsibility: it is to Get into the Word, find a good bible version (even though I am biased towards the KJV and the English bible of Jay Green (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801038251/qid=1098968498/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-4757321-5176729?v=glance&s=books)) - and read it, learn it, memorize it, pray to know it, pray to understand God, And start taking your relationship with God to the level that it needs to be.

And THAT is the point. And that is what those who are pointing out false teachers and False teachings Want to Free others to do.



Seeker
:):

[psykon99]

Hey Seeker - slow down!

How about holding a conversation instead of preaching for SIX LONG POSTS IN A ROW?

How do you even expect me to respond??!!

[psykon99]

There obviously was a problem with Cain's conduct. But if they had examined his theology, that would have told them far more.


Seeker you made this post after the first responses were that of sorrow over the falling of a brother. Instead of expressing sorrow, you attack his theology right off the bat. It seems you are also implying that his sin is tied into his theology, something I take issue with. I say "seems" because you may not have meant this.


If these leaders had been Biblical to begin with (in their theology), they would have saved their followers a great deal of heartache.


Here again you go from the sin of one man, to attacking his theology, to throwing in the rest of the people associated with him as if they're just as bad as he is in his own personal sins. You grouped the whole with the one conveniently taking the focus off the sin and onto the "false teaching." Again, as it seems to me, implying that the theology is the direct cause of the sin - and then lumping the rest of them with that so as to expect the same from the others.


All these guys are on slippery slopes!


I know this wasn't you, Seeker, but it's part of what I'm talking about.

Again, how did we go from Cain's sin to the whole lot of them and how bad they all are? Why did this thread have to become a "harp on those we don't like" thread?


Line 'em up there beside Benny Hinn.


Line 'em up for what?

[seeker42]

Seeker you made this post after the first responses were that of sorrow over the falling of a brother.

Yes its true that I do not consider Paul Cain a brother because I do not think that he is saved. A person can be saved without understanding the trinity, but a person cannot be saved if they deny the trinity, and if they continue to deny the trinity (JMO). It is a core doctrine, and - just to be sure I mention this, he denies other core doctrines as well. His theology and his teachings demonstrate that he is an Apostate.

I have a small degree of regret for him, but what did I expect ? That the Holy Spirit had transformed his life and changed his character ? It does not seem like the spirits that Paul Cain knows are Holy.


Instead of expressing sorrow, you attack his theology right off the bat. It seems you are also implying that his sin is tied into his theology, something I take issue with.

Yes that's about right. That was the right decision, though you are welcome to disagree with it. If Sun Young Moon (Moonies) broke his leg, I would regret that perhaps a small amount also. But in commenting, I would make sure that everyone knew that there is a great distance between the teachings of Moon and the teachings of Christ.

I would not want to express sorrow and have anyone take my empathy as a sign of implicit endorsement...though its true that many might not take it that way, some might. So it seems better to remove the doubt and clarify my position, so that others will not stumble.

IMO, his stumbling is directly caused by his theology. Paul Cain's perspective is that he can become divine like Jesus. IF he thinks that he can be a god, then it makes sense that he would start to try to behave like one, and redesign a universe to accomodate his own new rules for his godhood. THat seems like what he did in the case of his new lifestyle.

A person's actions are an outgrowth of his worldview. If Cain were to repent, then even in theory - that might place distance between his teachings and his actions. But according to those who worked with him, and took the story public - Cain refused to repent.

What are we to believe ? That cain believed that he SHOULD still repent, but accepted his own internal inconsistency, or that he simply did not care because he had elevated his own status to divinity ?

He already believes that Christ is not only a person, but a Position to which all other Christians can attain, the position of being "Christed". (this is a false & occult doctrine).

To suggest that he fell is possible, but it seems more likely that he is simply implementing his own theology. Those who believe in Shepherding and those who believe in MSG (manifested sons of God) doctrines routinely over-strech the boundaries of what is appropriate for leaders.

This is what the Kansas City Prophets did as well.

========

People emote however they wish or react to situations.

But there is the matter of those who came before, those who have already been previously hurt and harmed by Paul Cain's theology.

I have trouble feeling very bad for an unrepentant Paul Cain, when I know how bad some of those who fell victim to his false teachings have felt.

They have had their lives destroyed and turned upside down....because this false prophet goes around saying "Thus Sayeth the Lord" and then gives False prophecies. He is a False Prophet.

Since he is at least 70 years of age, that meanst that he has harmed and hurt many people - PRIOR to his latest personal actions.

His capacity for harm was infinitely greater in his capacity as teacher.

I don't think that I can overlook this. It does not seem appropriate to grieve for someone who never should have been a leader to begin with, and feel bad for him, when compared to the harm he has done for others.

I think he should repent. I also think he should get saved. And I don't think he is a brother in any sense of the word. Maybe if he would stop listening to the demons who are giving him messages while masquerading as angels of light, maybe he would struggle less with other issues.


Seeker

[seeker42]

How do you even expect me to respond??!!

Well its good if you can respond, but I don't really expect that you would respond to everything...

You can choose what to respond to...

However, I also post the material so that others will read and consider if it is worth thinking about. So I do sometimes post things because I think that it is a good place to post the information, even if it may not have direct immediate relevance Only for those who are also posting in that particular thread.

I have also wondered how to respond to others or how to catch up. Sometimes, I just post that I will respond later. Other times, I simply say (about 20 posts later) that I am responding to post # 20 (or whatever the number is) so that others know.

For people to make multiple posts is a good thing. The reason for the amount is to give a pause between the posts. I have no idea how long this board will last or when it would be shut down. I have no idea who will come to see it or will want some information on a topic, or how this might impact someone who is searching through the threads.

I don't know if my ISP will stay on, nor if my computer will work. Each day should be lived for itself, whenever possible (JMO). Actually I think we need more people posting, but that will happen in time.

:):

[seeker42]

You grouped the whole with the one conveniently taking the focus off the sin and onto the "false teaching."

Well If you want to add something about the Homosexual lifestyle of Paul Cain, you just go right ahead.

But what I am considering is the largest impact that he is having over the widest amount of people. While a few are affected by his homosexuality, many more are affected by his false theology - and were affected by this for DECADES.

The point of the original person who posted was to communicate information about Paul Cain. But I am not sure that merely because someone expresses sorrow about Paul cain's lifestyle, that this means that the statements of everyone else should be limited to only discussing his lifestyle, while deliberately omitting a discussion of his false teachings.

Come to think of it, I wonder what he teaches about Homosexuality, as PART of his teachings...


Seeker

[seeker42]

Here again you go from the sin of one man, to attacking his theology, to throwing in the rest of the people associated with him as if they're just as bad as he is in his own personal sins.

They are just as bad as him. What is worse ? To be involved in a homosexual lifestyle one on one or 20 on one (or whatever), OR

to influence people by teaching them that they can become God, thereby ensuring that if those people accept the false teachings, that they are condemned to an eternity without God ?

Which action has the greater consequence ? Paul Cain's teachings influence LEADERS within evangelical circles. The list of those he has impacted through his teachings is immense.

Granted that those who came out with the letter are not themselves homosexual, but the teachings that they present are at least as harmful, and probably more.

====

The reason why Paul Cain gets lumped in with others, is because other people teach False Doctrines just as Paul Cain Also teaches False Doctrines.

Do you think that because someone exposes Joseph Smith, that this means that they should not also comment on Mohamed ?

IF a person feels led to point out that there are two false teachers instead of pointing out one, how is this something wrong ?

It seems that we need to shine the light where the darkness comes along.


Seeker

[psykon99]

So much for Christ-like compassion. I'm done with this discussion.

[seeker42]

IF you want to cop-out, its a free world.

What you seem to have a problem with is that the doctrines and false teachings of Paul Cain and Jack Deere (http://www.christiansongwriters.com/ca42-100.html) are exposed.

It is loving towards those who truly know Christ to warn them of dangers.

It is compassionate to try and do everything to ensure that more people do not suffer because of the false teachings of these men.

If only Paul Cain had more compassion either towards those he brought his false teachings to, or more compassion towards those he chose to involve concerning his lifestyle.

Where is the compassion for the thousands of victims of Paul Cain ? Where is the love for their soul, or the empathy for their spiritual walk ?

In the meantime, we need to continue to have discernment, learn to draw boundaries of Biblical doctrine, and continue to help others.

The Movements that Jack Deere and Paul Cain have been working on will continue to grow for many years (unless the rapture comes sooner).

John Paul Jackson - who is KCF [Kansas City Fellowship/Kansas City Prophet] recently innaugurated a new Network for pastors.

Mike Bickle continues his ministry of false teachings (http://www.josephcompany.org/jcps-04-11.asp) (with Rick Joyner).

All of these teachers including Paul Cain AND C. Peter Wagner (http://www.arsenalbooks.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1585020060&variation=&aitem=3&mitem=25) make regular use of the Email network that was set up for Paul Cain ministries.

This email list is called the Elijah List. C. Peter Wagner (http://www.globalharvest.org/index.asp?action=conf7) continues to employ these false teachers, not only at his current speaking engagements and seminars, but also as Part of his World Prayer Center and his Wagner Leadership Institute.

Most of these teachers (Bickle/Francis Frangipane (http://www.hubministries.org/August%201999%20Conference.htm)/John Paul Jackson/ Rick Joyner / Dutch Sheets / Bob Jones / Chuck Pierce / Bob Weiner (http://www.etpv.org/1999/heargod.html) / and Paul Cain) continue to advance their proposition that whatever comes out of their mouth is the direct result of direct inspiration by God (http://www.arsenalbooks.com/products.asp?dept=1012) which can take the place of the Bible.

This is what they were teaching before, and it is what they continue to teach now. These teachers are being mentioned in this thread specifically, because they are all teaching - what they are teaching today - as a result of being personally mentored by Paul Cain and as a result of the teaching Ministry of Paul Cain.

IN this day and age of confusion, we need to continue to compare the teachings that are received from leaders with the direct and exact contents of the New Testament. It is the primary means that Christians have, to ensure that we are not deceived.


Seeker

[cindyw]

<<<<<<<<He never spoke against the Trinity in the days that I knew him. I never discussed the Trinity with him. It wasn’t until apparently the latter days of his life that he began to see all churches as apostate and that he felt that the Trinity doctrine had been invented by what he considered an apostate church.

However, when I said that he was the “greatest prophet of the 20th century,” I was not referring to his doctrine or teaching abilities. I was referring to his gifting in the word of knowledge and I was also thinking of him in his early ministry when he seemed free from unorthodox views that he later became dogmatic about. During that time thousands came to a saving knowledge of Christ in his meetings.>>>>>>>>

http://www.propheticroundtable.org/PaulCain/Interview.htm

To be fair here seeker, I don't see where Paul Cain denies the trinity. Here above, he is discussing BRANHAM's unorthodox views. It doesn't appear here that he is in agreement with Branham's view on the trinity.............

[seeker42]

You say that you don't see where he denies the trinity, but then you also say that Paul Cain came to the conclusion that the trinity doctrine had been invented by an apostate church .

So what are you saying, that Paul Cain still despite this - still believed in the doctrine of the trinity even though he also believed that the Trinity doctrine was from Apostate Origins ?

Are you saying that you personally knew Paul Cain ? How ?

[cindyw]

You say that you don't see where he denies the trinity, but then you also say that Paul Cain came to the conclusion that the trinity doctrine had been invented by an apostate church .

So what are you saying, that Paul Cain still despite this - still believed in the doctrine of the trinity even though he also believed that the Trinity doctrine was from Apostate Origins ?

Are you saying that you personally knew Paul Cain ? How ?

:doh Did you read my post seeker? I said that this was Paul Cain speaking of BRANHAM's beliefs.............. BRANHAM believed the trinity doctrine was invented by the apostate church.

I'm also :confused about your last statement. I thought I made it clear in a previous post that I didn't even know who Paul Cain was until AFTER I posted the OP........I was thinking Rick Joiner was speaking of Paul Crouch-----since it seems they both may have the same sin issues. All I'm saying is that we should be careful on "slamming" those who profess to be believers and not accuse them of believing something which they may not. In the interview by Paul Cain I can see nowhere that he denies the doctrine of the trinity-----on the other hand, Cain does acknowledge that Branham focused on "pet doctrines" in his last years-----going into unorthodox territory, including denial of the trinity.

[holyspiritvesse]

Paul Cain comes to a church near me every winter. Before this big prophet comes, they build up the church and prophetically say that:

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,


...

That their church has been chosen by God through a revelation by Paul Cain that they have this miraculous power.

When this was prophesied and spoken b4 Cain came two years ago, we left and never went back!

Those verses in Isaiah 61 are meant as Jesus' ministry - not man's.

[janh7]

I was "accidentally" at an event in 1989 where Paul Cain was the featured speaker. He told the large audience if they had a family member lying in a funeral home to bring them to the services that weekend and he would raise them from the dead. He is a false prophet. He scared the audience by intimidaton and he pointed one man out and told the audience that this guy needed to repent of homosexual sin!

[seeker42]

Did you read my post seeker?

Yes I did.

I just did not see the quote marks, so I did not understand that you were quoting someone else


:rolleyes

[seeker42]

All I'm saying is that we should be careful on "slamming" those who profess to be believers and not accuse them of believing something which they may not.

Yes, it could be that I am doing that:

"slamming" those who profess to be believers and not accuse them of believing something which they may not.


or it could be that I am saying what I am...on the basis of serious personal research that I have done on Paul Cain.

My conclusion are based on the research I have done, and not simply on a whim...or a hint...

those who think that Paul cain does not deny the trinity have not studied his material, his teachings or his tapes (audio/video).

[seeker42]

If Paul Cain believes in the Trinity, then Ken Copeland believes in the real Jesus. The Bottom line is that Paul Cain is one of the FOUNDING FATHERS of:

1. Word of Faith

2. Shepherding

3. Manifested Sons of God

4. and the Prophecy movement (the False prophecy movement, also known as the New Apostolic Reformation)

While there are Both Pentacostal and Charismatic Churches that are doctrinally sound and have Solid Biblical theology, THere is almost no Doctrinal Error among those in the Charismatic or Pentacostal churches, that Paul Cain has not played a direct part in.

He has been at this for more than 50 years.

[seeker42]

I do not know why people suppose that if we are only talking about one error that a false teacher has, that this somehow means - that the person only has - One doctrinal error.

Maybe they think that One doctrinal is all it takes to make the hit list for that leader to be listed or outed as a heretic.

I suppose that this is theoretically possible. However in the case of the false teachers on the board, this had Not been done with them (and in references to my posts, It takes much more than one mistake for me to talk about them).

[or maybe I am not as clear as I wish I were]

I don't think that some understand just how mistaken and misguided Paul Cain is.

He says that He receives Angelic Visitations. He has posted this frequently and on his website. He makes many statements about the future and what will happen about events and the political landscape...that do not occur.

He attributes the fact of his prophecies to the spirit beings that he is receiving these "prophecies" from.

So if these spirits are giving him false information, that means that they are DEMONS and not angels (not that they were likely to have been angels in anycase). But they could not be Angels because if they were truly from God, they would be bringing him 100% accurate information. Angels that come and appear to you that Are from God do NOT lie.

Angels that come to people with teachings that are contradictions of what the New Testament says are Lying Spirits (i.e. Demons).


Paul Cain does not claim to have the New Testament gift of prophecy. He claims to be an Old Testament Prophet. His followers also often claim that They are Old Testament prophets.

Paul Cain accepts advice from Demons, and braggs about it, and depends upon their knowledge as the basis for his Theology. His views are Literally - A Doctrine of Demons - This is not something new. He has been doing it (consorting with demons) all of his life.


BTW, the same thing used to happen to Branham. Branham said that whenever he was speaking to an audience, that there was a spirit being who would appear to him on stage, but that the audience could not see.

He described the Spirit being as being extremely Hostile, and said that it told him what to say. According to Branham, the spirit who was inspiring him also threatened to physically harm him...if he did not repeat what that spirit told him to.

That kind of spirit is NOT from God. That is called a Demon.


======

One of the features about Paul Cain is that he teaches the false doctrine that christians will be the army of Joel chapter 2 - under the personal command of Paul Cain.

That statement usually draws a collective yawn, because people don't study their Bible so they do not know what this means.

What it means is that when Christ returns for the 2nd coming of Christ, he will come with the saints to make war against the devil and his forces.

But that is NEVER something that is initiated by ANY human acting of their own free will directing other humans. That army is the army in the spirit and under the control of Jesus Christ directly. In the case of Joel 2, the saints directed by Jesus Christ are acting in the sovereignty of God.

But Paul Cain teaches this with a twist.

He teaches that his followers will make up "Joel's Army" and that THEY are the ones who will wreck murderous vengeance on those who are not Christians, under the command of Paul Cain.

Don't you understand the implications ?

This is very dangerous teaching, AND it is a teaching that those who have worked with Paul Cain have picked up and continue to transmit.

You will also hear of this as "Joel's Army", or the Joseph Company.

Paul Cain calls his ministries a "Company of Prophets" or in in his case - a HORDE of prophets ...because this is what he is trying to raise....

It is this company of Prophets that will be the leader of Paul Cain's Army of Joel 2.
Rick Joyner wrote a whole book on Joel's Army.

They do not see this as symbolic. They understand this as literal, with them acting as the literal agents to do this. And they have NO Intention of waiting for Jesus christ to come back and take control.

On the contrary, they are going to try to initiate this because this is what they think is needed in order to encourage Christ to come back.

The degree to which people are being misled defies description...

and some think this is has to do with only minor theological details...As others have said He is a False Prophet...and when Paul Cain speaks, he thinks he is chaneling God

So the point is that if the only detail on which he were reproached were the Trinity, yes that specific mistake would be significant enough to mention it. However, that is only one of dozens of differences between True christianity and Paul Cain.

[seeker42]

It doesn't appear here that he is in agreement with Branham's view on the trinity.............


Be not deceived...Bad company corrupts good manners.

Cain has made many statements about Branham. What he says sometimes in public is different, than either when you ask him and he answers not on the record, or when he is teaching to a closed audience (no visitors allowed).

Remember what happens to people when they come out of a cult ?

They are EAGER to warn others about the dangers of that cult.

Paul Cain almost always defends Branham. Yes, Paul cain does say that Branham sometimes has unusual views, unique views, etc, but his characterization of Branham is always to minimize the errors of Branham and to elevate him and treat him as a genuine Prophet.

It may be good to remember that Paul Cain was personally mentored and discipled by William Branham FOR MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS. He was Branham's personal Assistant, in addition to being a teacher.

Remember Paul Cain thinks - just like Branham did - that all of Christianity was hopelessly corrupt and totally doctrinally wrong. That is why Branham continued to preach and teach ...because he had decided that Christianity itself needed to be eliminated and replaced with the teachings of Branham.

This is what Paul Cain is doing with his Company of Prophets. You can find the name of those Prophets either at the Elijah List or at the website of C. Peter Wagner.

Their plan is to keep the structure of Christianity in place, and then replace it with their teachings, and their leaders...and they are making Great progress.

You would have to know Cain and how he deals with teaching, and then find private engagements and learn what he teaches there. His public teachings are false and misleading. But his private teachings go much farther.

[janh7]

Paul Cain is no brother. I can't believe anyone could think is was after knowing what he teached. He preached "another" gospel, he preached a "different" jesus. My prayer for the church is we would be bereans, testing the spirits, knowing the Word so as to recognize false teachings. If you know the Word inside and out, how can you believe these false teachers?

[cindyw]

I'm all for "outing" false teachers/teachings. However, we must be careful about relaying incorrect things about another person. If a person has not OUTRIGHTLY said they do not believe in the trinity, how can we say they believe the trinity doctrine is false?

There's many a popular teacher that I won't listen to because they are off in one big area to me, however, I am careful not to say a person teaches such and such unless there is hard evidence of that fact. I don't like it when people have said things about me which weren't true about my beliefs. That's dishonest and unChristlike. Just because we are at odds with someone's doctrine doesn't mean it's ok to ascribe other "false" things that may not pertain to them at all. my 2 cents. As I said, I don't know Paul Cain or his "secret" teachings only what I read HIM say.........

[breezef43]

Hallelujah! Revival's broken out! G-d's blessing us!

Did you see the Denomination Newsletter going out all over our state?

Leaders in New Members!

Leaders in Brand-New Baptisms!

Leaders in Missions Givings!

**************************************************


"Father, where are you taking me?"

"I'm taking you to a revival meeting. I want to show you how every
lie comes into the church carried by truth. I want to teach you,
in addition, just how subtle and deceiving your adversary can be."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The high school football stadium is filling up with thousands of people.
Many are carrying Bibles. Most are smiling, and there's a certain
special excitement of revival in the late summer air. The people take
their seats. The hugh area-wide choir sings, and a dominant local
preacher prays.

After several polite jokes, hymns, extrordinary music features, an
exhortation on giving and the passing of large galvanized buckets,
the celebrity evangelist stalks past the hugh P.A. system across
the make-shift temporary rostrom platform and to the center stage
pulpit. Silence fills the stadium as every eye and ear is on him. A
hush rolls over the enormous crowd. Even the babies stop crying,, ,

After calmly reading a pre-selected text from his Bible he begins tp
preach: "So you call yourselves Christians? So you claim to believe
that without Christ a man is cast into hell? So you profess to
believe that Christ is the answer to the problems facing our country,
the environment, schools and the world today? So you claim to
love your brother? Then tell me, why, in the Name of Jesus, do you
live like the world? Why do you gossip, curse, and slander people
behind their back? Why aren't you telling anybody about Jesus, if
you really believe He's the answer? Why is there strife in your homes
and churches? Why is your life filled with self-seeking idolatry?

If you really believe that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit,
as this book declares, then why do you constantly stuff-your-face
and feed upon your addictions? Why are so many of you so grossly
overweight and sick most of the time? I'll tell you why! Because
your belly is your god! Jesus isn't your Lord! Your appetite is!

You parade to church every Sunday morning, with your Bible under
your arm pretending to love the Word of G-d! Well, if you love G-d's
Word, then why are you glued to your precious TV set watching
the devil's pollution, hour after hour, each night, whilest that Bible
you profess to love sits on your side table under yesterday's
sports page or worse than that, under your worldly, sensual
magazines! I'll tell you why! It's because you don't really love
the Word of G-d! You love your selfish ambitions! You love your
luxuries, and all your creature comforts! You don't love G-d! It's
all a show! It's a lie! You're deceived into thinking that you're
a good Christian people, but the truth is that you are poor, wretched,
miserable, naked, and blind!"

*****************************************************


"Child, do you believe he's telling then the truth?"

"Yes, Father. It hurts but it's the truth. Father, I feel awful. There
are so many inconsistencies in my life. Father, I'm too defiled
and unworthy to be talking to you."

"Hush Child! Child, just keep listening."

******************************************************


The envangelist continues, "All of the young people here whose
parents are Sunday School teachers, deacons, or preachers,......
would you please kindly stand-up.....I see that there are hundreds
of you. Now, if you have Bible study and prayer in your home on
a regular, consistent basis, say, even,,ugh....daily basis and if your
parents are teaching you the importance of G-d's Word in your home,
please remain standing. If not, then sit down......

Look around folks. Only a small handful out of thousands remain
standing. It's pitiful! No wonder there's a form of godliness with no power
in our churches today! No wonder the world is lost, dying, and going
to hell! Are you still proud of yourself? Church Leaders, you're
a bunch of hypocrites! You don't know G-d! You're chained to
your religious traditions! You're phony! G-d knows it. You know
it, and your children know it!"

*****************************************************


"Father, we're in a big terrible mess. G-d, what can we do? He's
right. The church is lost. What can we do?"

"Remember, Child, Im teaching you how a lie comes into the church
carried by the truth. The guilt, embarrassment and sorrow you're
experiencing right now is not conviction from Me. It's a counterfeit
of conviction which Satan continually uses to deceive Christians
into dondage. It's called condemnation. Now keep in mind, every
word that the travelling evangelist spoke was the truth. He was
ridiculing people with truth. That's not My way,, ,Child!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.

[joy4Him2day]

Breeze :freaked

[breezef43]

Breeze :freaked

Romans 2 verse 1:

"Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes
judgement, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself;
for you who judge practice the same things."

Romans 8:1-2
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ
Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to
the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free
from the law of sin and death."

joy4Him2day, thank you for your "freaked" incon reaction. Admittedly,
that was a "different" type of styled post.

If you'll reread that post, try looking beneath the lines a bit,
you'll discover that Guilt, Regret and Shame, all forms of
condemnation, are subtle ways that a False Prophet 'hides' in
the shadows of speech to our listening hearts to attack us with
thoughts or influences upon our reasonings-----all filtered through
the emotions. The attempt of that post was to display in a rather
unique manner how this might "look".

Again, thanks for your time and attention to that post. Also, and
as a suggestion only, some of seeker42's earlier posts are speaking
to 'inspirations' along these same lines. To clarify, I'll try once more
and immediately discuss Guilt, Regret and Shame, but in an outright
manner.

breeze

.

[frisian1970]

interesting...

[joy4Him2day]

:ear

[breezef43]

:ear


We're at the corner of a busy downtown intersection. Shortly,
in view we see weaving down the sidewalk a blind man tapping
the cement walk with his cane. He stumbles over the sidewalk
curb, drops his cane, bumps into a light pole, and falls back
into the traffic which is stopped for a red light.

The light changes to green, and the traffic is stalled waiting for
the blind man to find his way. One of the motorists grows angry,
impatient. He rolls down this car window and begins yelling at
the blind man, "Hey, blind man! You can't see where you're going!
You're stopping traffic! Get out of the way! I'm late! If you can't
stay on the sidewalk, then stay home! You think you can stay
out of the way by using that cane? We'll you're not doin` it,
so go home!"


**************************************************

"Child, do you believe that man is telling the truth?"

"Yes, Father. I see what You're teaching me now. Jesus came
to give sight to the spiritually blind. He didn't come to ridicule
and condemn us."

"Trust Me, child, and walk with Me. I'll continually improve your
spiritual vision so that you can see truth and reality. And remember,
there is now NO CONDEMNATION toward those who are in Christ Jesus,
and to be IN CHRIST Jesus is made possible only by way of the Blood...
not by what you do or don't do! Believe Me, and I'll take care of
giving you a heart that will cause you to keep my ordinances
and walk in My love. Your part is not doing things. Your part
is to believe Me, and I'll do things THROUGH you."

"Thank you, Father. That clears up a lot of things."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


.

[joy4Him2day]

Breeze:

I saw this story on another message board. I did not know who Paul Cain is, I still don't. I do not follow Rick Joyner or his comrades, per se. I did address the letter that was written to believers about the situation. It was written by Pam Clarke, from Pam Clarke Ministries. It was sent via e-mail. It was very compassionate......here is just an excerpt:

We need to see Paul restored. I would say that I think most honorable Christians would want to see him, or any other loved one, restored to a healed and effective place of ministry. Please lift him up for internal and external healing. I call him friend as do many many others. Pray that he will have the strength and courage to face and overcome that which would want to bring him down. I really don't think Paul wants to go to hell. God may be allowing this to cause the Church to face her real issues

****
this was my response:

WOW
sobering.
that was a very compassionate letter for her to write. We should all have such a christian friend......
a very good book to understand some of this, and how it happens was written recently by Beth Moore. When Godly People Do Ungodly Things.
It really helped me understand what happened to a very good christian friend of mine......
every christian should read it, JMHO.
I do not know who this man is, but it is still quite sobering.

*******

I haven't read all the blather about Paul Cain.....perhaps, I wouldn't like what he preaches.....but, I was addressing what our response should be toward restoration not celebration, which is what I think, Breeze, you are alluding to..........as that was what my reaction turned to.........(I know I still have lots of blindness to uncover, and I don't want someone beating me up for it......)

[breezef43]

Breeze:

I haven't read all the blather about Paul Cain.....perhaps, I wouldn't like what he preaches.....but, I was addressing what our response should be toward restoration not celebration, which is what I think, Breeze, you are alluding to..........as that was what my reaction turned to.........(I know I still have lots of blindness to uncover, and I don't want someone beating me up for it......)

Whoa, Whoa!

....."and I don't want someone beating me up for it"......

joy4Him2day, I have no idea what's meant by the comment nor do I
have any idea if you even direct at me, but I certainly hold no such
intentions towards you, joy4Him2day.

I have no knowledge of one "Paul Cain" as my first hearings of such
of an individual was arriving through the RR board. Without any
doubt, I certainly have never met nor been in any contact whatsoever
with any "Paul Cain" nor any of "Cain's" associates, associations
or whatever business or professional dealings thereunto appertaining.
At the risk of overkill, I state again, I have no first, second, or
even third-hand information pertaining to the name you have called
attention to in the post. All that I have is the information which
has been detailed in the 'thread'. I can't state this any clearer.

There are some outstanding post contributors already 'spoken' in
this thread, tightly written, well thought-out, ---- which raised
the dialogue to far more important, deeper issues. Those issues
alluded to would be of a philosophical, spiritual, theological,
even a larger scale social arena, but not directed back towards
any one specific named organization nor any individual.

Now, I had made an assumption that this thread, as progessed to
date, had gone beyond the initial "news" aspects plus early
reactions, leaving that behind and moving into a rather general
discussion of ministry techniques, evangelisms, plus other forms of
spiritual salesmanships. At times my sense of continuity is misunderstood.
I'm sorry if that sense of continuity was misunderstood. From your
comments, joy4Him2day, this writer's posts obviously must appear
as a tangent. If they in fact do, I certainly hope that you and no
one else may have been offended.

Finally, regarding "Cain" and "restoration" questions/issues, I have
absolutely no comment to make. Yet Scripture that may apply
in any circumstance akin to this would be: 1 Timothy 4:10;
2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 John 2:2 and James 5:16-----at any rate,
the Lord's Will be done in the matter.

breeze


.

[joy4Him2day]

Breeze:

You have misunderstood where I was going. I do not feel any malice from you at all, on the contrary, I think that you have gone deeper into what is going on than most chose to do------which is a good thing......for man looks on the outward, and God on the heart......

Whoa, whoa---to you :lol
I think I have understood your writings and I will say although I was quite startled by your post........I tend to be in agreement with them, so they interested me a lot.

It goes to show how an author of a writing can be gravely misunderstood should a writing come before the known "spirit" of the writer------

I think you are on to something here. And we have in common the fact that we are not followers of Cain nor his followers, so we are talking about something entirely different than what they are saying and more about who they are.......people in need of mercy, compassion, wound-dressing, and therefore my reference to "not being beaten for my blindness" was not directed at you......on the contrary, I felt you holding out your hand to lift up weary bodies.....ones that have fallen for satan's tricks....as fellow strugglers, finding our way----"while on the path".......

refering to "restoration" and not "celebration" is meant to check our spirits when we see our brother in error! Sometimes, it feels like we respond in "delight" instead of grief, when someone has been caught in a trap of satan and exposed........

we live in periless times, and need to see what God sees, and be what God needs us to be....we think we have had sufficient warning about deception, and yet, all of us, are prey to it.......

as you stated in another thread, worshipping the word, instead of the Word...putting the emphasis on anything other than our relationship with God through His Spirit.......

I still don't know if I am saying all I want....
I found your posts refreshing....I am sorry that you did not determine that.....