If You Still Sin You Are Not Saved.. bumper sticker

[Byfaith]

saw this on a car today. It said Church of God on it and gave this scripture reference :John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.


What does it mean ? I am saved but I still sin :confused

[frisian1970]

Some think that people use the below to continue in sin, and I am sure that is the case at times. But to me, it is assurance of the grace that comes from God.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Romans 7
Struggling With Sin

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

[Don]

If You Still Sin You Are Not Saved
Is there also a bumper sticker for the corollary to this? i.e. "No One is Saved"

Are there bumper stickers that state the opposite to this? i.e. "If Anyone Claims to be Without Sin, He Is a Liar - 1 John 1:8".

[Don]

Of all the people I have heard claim that a truly saved person cannot willfully sin, I have yet to meet one that didn't.

[frisian1970]

Of all the people I have heard claim that a truly saved person cannot willfully sin, I have yet to meet one that didn't.

Me either. And they aren't even good at hiding it.

:noidea

[Becky]

That's why there are only two kinds of people in the world: Sinners and Saved Sinners.

[Hootmon]

Are there bumper stickers that state the opposite to this? i.e. "If Anyone Claims to be Without Sin, He Is a Liar - 1 John 1:8".

Of all the people I have heard claim that a truly saved person cannot willfully sin, I have yet to meet one that didn't.:nod


Byfaith, Scripture says that when you are saved you wont continue in Sin. Not that you dont Sin at all. Its the 'lifestyle' of Sinning that is being referred to.

Try reading the KJV version. The 'eth' verb suffix indicated a continuing state rather than an isolated event.

[Samer]

Hootmon is right on.

btw, Church of God = CULT!

[Joshua's Gen]

That's why there are only two kinds of people in the world: Sinners and Saved Sinners. No offense, but this always gets under my skin. :B:

We do sin.. but I don't think God views us as sinners when under the Blood.

We're transformed into a new creature.. we're saints now, saved by Grace.

:peep

[Becky]

I know Joel. Hootmon described it better than I did. But you know what I mean.

[Joshua's Gen]

I always know what you mean. :B:

But that can't take away the fun of pickin on ya. :heh

:bolt

[Becky]

:blah

[mamacags]

I am not sure if you all know but there is one without sin. I read in a catholic book that the Pope is infallible and so that means he never ever sins. Plus, since it was in a book that makes it true:thumb

[4Jesus]

Well, I relate to the bumper sticker I saw that said "I'm not perfect, just forgiven."

We all struggle with sin issues. Key word, struggle. When I was an unbeliever, nothing convicted me of my sin, just I knew it was wrong, now, the Holy spirit convicts me in my struggle. And it grieves me to grieve God.

[Joshua's Gen]

:becky



http://www.crimsonstained.com/jp/Five.gif mama

[Don]

btw, Church of God = CULT!Care to elaborate?

[Knight Errant]

I believe that God wants to take the fear out of our relationship with Him, so we can serve Him out of gratitude and love, so that when we do the right thing, we do it for the right reason, from a right heart. This is more important to Him than just controlling our behavior, which is what too many people mean by not sinning; Pride is still the worst sin of all, and if you think that you do not sin, you are proud. Then when you do stumble in such a way you are forced to admit it to yourself, it can be shattering. Thus, the devil gets you coming an going. Father wants to give us rest in Him, since "Perfect Love casts out Fear."

[Samer]

Until very recently, they denied the trinity, and there are still Church of God splinter groups that hold heretical doctrines, but the bumper sticker says it all. Since they reformed and accepted the trinity and whatnot, it seems a great many members remained and have never been born again.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns78.html

However, despite the positive doctrinal changes and widespread acceptance by Protestant Christianity, it is the belief of many who have left the WCG group that many abusive and cultic dynamics remain, including financial manipulation, a complete lack of accountability and a totalistic hierarchy in which the Pastor General controls the church and its assets (see WCG bylaws).
What is the Worldwide Church of God? [No longer online] (Article by David Covington, an ex-member, critical of the new WCG) ---cited from http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w01.html

The doctrine is now pretty orthodox, although they used to be a pretty much accepted cult, but I think when you take a group of people who believe something and suddenly tell them they believe something else; it doesn't really work. Kinda like when Constantine legalized "Christianity" and suddenly pagans became Christians, but never really forsook their old beliefs. After they suddenly accepted the trinity, 40% of their pastors quit or were terminated. I find it hard to believe that 60% of a group's most hard-line believers--pastors--were suddenly born again and started preaching the true gospel.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/armstrong.htm
The Worldwide Church of God apparently still rejects eternal punishment. The fact that they seem to believe that Herbert Armstrong was saved speaks volumes about their understanding of salvation.

For those who have become born again within the organization, I rejoice, but I think once a cult, always a cult, and I just don't trust it.

I guess it all depends on your definition of cult, and there are variations within each individual group.

[Butch]

saw this on a car today. It said Church of God on it and gave this scripture reference :John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.


What does it mean ? I am saved but I still sin :confused

It means they believe in sinless perfection, which is refuted in the first epistle of John, chapter one and verse ten. As he is talking to believers, he states:

IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.

If we properly understand the word of God, we know that we are very far from "sinless perfection" and will remain so, until the trump sounds or the Lord calls us home, thru death.

PS. If you would have followed that car around, you most likely would have found him/her going over the speed limit, and if only one mile an hour over the limit, they would have been sinning.

[Jiggy37]

Of all the people I have heard claim that a truly saved person cannot willfully sin, I have yet to meet one that didn't.There will be many like that--those who become truly saved right before being executed by the Antichrist. Of course, that'll only be because they won't particularly have an opportunity to sin, but hey...

[mikesteffen]

You've seen the bumper sticker that says..

"In case of rapture this car will be unmanned"

I saw one that said...

"In case of rapture can I have your car"

[Mindenite]

Ok, I must say that calling the church of God a cult is not only too general but also quite wrong. I can easily say this because there are three Church of God denominations as well as the worldwide variety spoken of in this thread. The Church of God based and founded out of Anderson, Indiana is a truly Godly church--good doctrines and a very solid Biblical foundation.

I do not know what the other Church of God denominations believe but the Anderson, Indiana variety does believe in a state of sinlessness that can be had in this life. I have had this debate before so I will simply say that for all the "it actually means continuing in sin" readings of the 1 John verses, there can be an equal number of "it actually means without sin at any point in life" readings of the other side. In other words, those who say the verse "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (in the KJV version with no "eth" by the way) 1 John 3:9 means continuing in sin can read it that way, but it is just as easy to read "If Anyone Claims to be Without Sin, He Is a Liar" 1 John 1:8 as a past tense verse; I am not without sin because I have sinned in my life, for example.

"Christian Perfectionism" as John Wesley called it is not a heretical doctrine either at least not in one of the 4 Church of God denominations or even the catholic church (other protestant denominations of course will call it heretical). It does not mean, though, that once you are saved *poof* sinless. But the belief does have a different conception of sin as a backdrop (no sins of omission unless blatant, sin as intentional acts, etc.). Avoiding sin is much easier when one doesn't consider not smiling at one's neighbor a sin. But I have said enough to intiate far more than a flame war so I will shut up now.

[Samer]

I did not know that "Church of God" could mean something other than "Worldwide Church of God or its derivatives." I do not believe by any means that John Wesley was a heretic, so neither will I say the same about the Anderson CoG. Pardon my ignorance. Since the topic has come up, I thought I'd throw a couple verses in. I don't know Greek, but maybe you're right about the grammar of sin in the past tense. Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Also, James 3:2.

Eh, you haven't said anything to initiate a flame war. I probably did by screaming "cult!" though, hehe.

[Mindenite]

Well I know that a topic similar to this, though one that was more focused on the belief itself than a cheesy bumper sticker proclaiming the driver's beliefs as if we care to know :D: , brought about some very strong and spirited comments. I thank you for your calmness in this area Samer.

This really is one of the more annoying things about being a part of the CoG Anderson, Indiana. People ask me what denomination I am and I have to go through quite a bit of clarification. "No I don't pick up snakes in church like one of the other CoG denominations and yes I do and always have believed in the trinity." One can imagine the headaches :): .

As for the verses, I am not saying which interpretation is right, only which one I believe in and thus which one I believe to be right (but then again, if one didn't believe one's own beliefs to be right, why believe in them at all?). There are seemingly conflicting verses even within the same book of the Bible. Can a Christian live the rest of his/her life without sinning after reaching a certain point of spiritual growth and maturity? If read completely literally, though I am not bashing Bible literalists, then yes they can and no they can't. So, we as discerning Christians have to either plead ignorance or take one side over the other, interpreting the other verses in the only way that makes sense given our beliefs. It can be hard at times but so long as there is no argument over the points dealing with salvation (being all the points that makes a Christian a Christian), I think it is healthy for people to have their own interpretations.

[Brad MetalMan]

Until very recently, they denied the trinity, and there are still Church of God splinter groups that hold heretical doctrines, but the bumper sticker says it all. Since they reformed and accepted the trinity and whatnot, it seems a great many members remained and have never been born again.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns78.html

However, despite the positive doctrinal changes and widespread acceptance by Protestant Christianity, it is the belief of many who have left the WCG group that many abusive and cultic dynamics remain, including financial manipulation, a complete lack of accountability and a totalistic hierarchy in which the Pastor General controls the church and its assets (see WCG bylaws).
What is the Worldwide Church of God? [No longer online] (Article by David Covington, an ex-member, critical of the new WCG) ---cited from http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w01.html

The doctrine is now pretty orthodox, although they used to be a pretty much accepted cult, but I think when you take a group of people who believe something and suddenly tell them they believe something else; it doesn't really work. Kinda like when Constantine legalized "Christianity" and suddenly pagans became Christians, but never really forsook their old beliefs. After they suddenly accepted the trinity, 40% of their pastors quit or were terminated. I find it hard to believe that 60% of a group's most hard-line believers--pastors--were suddenly born again and started preaching the true gospel.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/armstrong.htm
The Worldwide Church of God apparently still rejects eternal punishment. The fact that they seem to believe that Herbert Armstrong was saved speaks volumes about their understanding of salvation.

For those who have become born again within the organization, I rejoice, but I think once a cult, always a cult, and I just don't trust it.

I guess it all depends on your definition of cult, and there are variations within each individual group.

The Church of God this bumper sticker refers to is not the World Wide Church of God. There are many groups that claim the name "Church of God" such as the Church of God Cleveland, Tn, a Pentecostal Church, and the Church of God Anderson Indiana, which is a Holiness Church. Either of these are cults whether or not you believe in their doctrines. The bumper sticker comes from one of these denominations, which teach entire sanctification. This doctrine teaches that grace works in the believer to the point where they do not have to sin.

[Brad MetalMan]

Is there also a bumper sticker for the corollary to this? i.e. "No One is Saved"

Are there bumper stickers that state the opposite to this? i.e. "If Anyone Claims to be Without Sin, He Is a Liar - 1 John 1:8".

Does that necessarily mean in the present time, or does it just mean that all have sinned some time in their life (i.e. Romans 3:23)

[Mindenite]

You say cult, I say judgment. How is the Anderson, Indiana Church of God in any way a cult? The Cleveland one, yeah, cult. Handling snakes and drinking poisons is quite cultish but the other is Biblically sound. It is based out of Wesleyian pietism and arrose out of the holiness movement (not as in holy rollers or any of that charasimatic stuff). Many of their teachings line up with those of John Wesley, as I already pointed out. We gonna start calling him David Keresh (sp?) now as he has helped start this "cult" of the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana)?

Edited to add: Btw, even though this may start a doctrinal debate, who says God's grace isn't powerful enough to stop the sin in a person? People believe in OSAS and predetermination (double predesination too) because they don't want to limit God's power and foresight. Why then put limits on His Grace by saying that no one, even with God, can escape sin? With God all things are possible right? To call them a cult due to saying God's grace can do all things (which is essentially saying that God can do all things, i.e. omnipotent) is quite appalling actually. Call the Mormons with their virgin filled planets that they rule a cult and call the Jehovah's Witnesses with their 144,000 slots in Heaven a cult, but please refrain from calling a legitimate and Biblically founded denomination of Protestantism a cult.

[Don]

Does that necessarily mean in the present time, or does it just mean that all have sinned some time in their life (i.e. Romans 3:23)
Without looking into the Greek (which might fully answer the question), I'd say it can be read either way. But what sense would it make if it was only referring to one's live before believing in Christ? It's simply a fact that there's no such thing as a Christian who has never willfully sinned (excepting, of course, conversions ocurring immediately before physical death).

Also, if believers never sinned, then this passage (for one) would not make sense: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. (if believers can't sin, then why the exhortation to not sin?) But if anybody does sin, (why add this is it's impossible for a believer to sin?) we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." - 1 John 2:1

[Mindenite]

Grace is not a static thing. It is not bestowed on one when one converts and then that gift of Grace simpy sits there. It is a constant, living thing (living as in existing and working moment to moment). Who ever said that it was impossible to sin after becoming a Christian? If the word impossible is taken out then Paul's words back up this belief of sinlessness even more. Paul wants them to stop sinning. If itis possible to stop living in sin only through the grace of God, then why would it not be possible to go the next step through the grace of God. As I asked before, is God's grace is utterly limited? As for your "factual" statment, how do you know? You cannot claim to know first-hand and there is no Scriptual evidence that cannot be read in the way in which I have already mentioned. There is no Scripture saying that we sin everyday.

With that said, I am not trying to make anyone believe as the Church of God (Anderson, IN) believes. However, I am saying that it is entirely possible and just as possible to read the Bible in such a way that grants this belief a true life. We aren't denying the Trinity or saying Jesus wasn't God's Son. But, as I said, not trying to win anyone over. I am only saying that no matter how hard one tries, this belief is not going away, so easily defeated, or some blasphemous heresy.

[Samer]

This brings up some interesting questions...Where should we draw the line "cult"? Can there be saved members within a cult? Can a cult reform and become Christian? Here's what I think:
1) An error on a "fundamental doctrine" (e.g., virgin birth, nature of God/trinity, salvation by grace through faith, etc.), or a church in line with orthodoxy, but with a cultlike system of legalistic control and/or deception.
2) I hesitate to say...I think it is possible in very rare cases, but that person will not grow as a Christian and will know something's wrong, and should get out ASAP. And, certainly, that person will believe things that are contary to the official cult's teaching.
3) Partially...not 100%.

I believe a church can be in error about something, and thus necessitate ecclesiastical separation, but still contain born-again Christians and preach the true gospel. The Bible speaks of "damnable heresies" (2 Peter 2:1), and I think that distinction is relevant.

Thoughts? Scriptures?

[Don]

Grace is not a static thing. It is not bestowed on one when one converts and then that gift of Grace simpy sits there. It is a constant, living thing (living as in existing and working moment to moment). Who ever said that it was impossible to sin after becoming a Christian? If the word impossible is taken out then Paul's words back up this belief of sinlessness even more. Paul wants them to stop sinning. If itis possible to stop living in sin only through the grace of God, then why would it not be possible to go the next step through the grace of God. As I asked before, is God's grace is utterly limited? I never claimed God can help stop a Christian from sinning. I claimed there is no such thing as a Christian who never sins.


As for your "factual" statment, how do you know? You cannot claim to know first-hand and there is no Scriptual evidence that cannot be read in the way in which I have already mentioned. There is no Scripture saying that we sin everyday.I never said we sin everyday. Tell you what: you show me one believer who has never sinned since he believed (given a reasonable amount of time, say, one year) and I will retract my statement. Not even the greatest Christians in history like Peter or Paul could do it.


However, I am saying that it is entirely possible and just as possible to read the Bible in such a way that grants this belief a true life. It's entirely possible to read the Bible in many ways, but that does not make a way valid. If the evidence fails to back up a certain understanding in 100% of observed cases with no exceptions, then I'm inclined to think that that understanding is incorrect.


For the record, I think it is possible for God to help people stop sinning in certain areas -- maybe most or all -- but I do not think anyone is faithful enough to have been able to get rid of all sin in their life completely immediately after conversion. After the resurrection when we are born again into our new bodies, yes, but not while we still contend with the flesh.

[Brad MetalMan]

You say cult, I say judgment. How is the Anderson, Indiana Church of God in any way a cult? The Cleveland one, yeah, cult. Handling snakes and drinking poisons is quite cultish but the other is Biblically sound. It is based out of Wesleyian pietism and arrose out of the holiness movement (not as in holy rollers or any of that charasimatic stuff). Many of their teachings line up with those of John Wesley, as I already pointed out. We gonna start calling him David Keresh (sp?) now as he has helped start this "cult" of the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana)?

Edited to add: Btw, even though this may start a doctrinal debate, who says God's grace isn't powerful enough to stop the sin in a person? People believe in OSAS and predetermination (double predesination too) because they don't want to limit God's power and foresight. Why then put limits on His Grace by saying that no one, even with God, can escape sin? With God all things are possible right? To call them a cult due to saying God's grace can do all things (which is essentially saying that God can do all things, i.e. omnipotent) is quite appalling actually. Call the Mormons with their virgin filled planets that they rule a cult and call the Jehovah's Witnesses with their 144,000 slots in Heaven a cult, but please refrain from calling a legitimate and Biblically founded denomination of Protestantism a cult.

The Cleveland Church of God does not endorse snake handling, drinking poison, etc...They stand against these things. I should know, I attend their seminary. They are very similar to the Assemblies of God. Check out their website and read up on their doctrine.

[Mindenite]

If one can stop sinning for one day, then one can stop sinning for two days, and then one week, and then one month, etc. Temptation will always be there and mistakes will always occur but not all mistakes are sinful. You are still under the assumption that God's grace is a static thing. As I said, it is not a present that God gives one once one is saved and then leaves that person to fend for oneself with the static grace given. Therefore, once a person becomes a Christian, there may be no immediate change in lifestyle at all but the door is open for God to work. After a while, it is entirely possible to stop sinning.

I can name probably four or five people just off the top of my head who I believe have stopped sinning. Show them to you though? I see no point for neither of us can see their hearts, which is the place in which sin exists. I believe they have ceased sinning, though are not free from mistakes, because I know them very well, but I cannot say for certain just like you cannot say for certain the reverse because neither of us are God. That is probably what upsets me the most is the fact that many Christians believe that they know something about every Christian; that is simply not possible and is quite arrogant in my eyes. Sorry if that comment is out of line but it is mainly directed toward years of hearing this stuff and no particular person.

As for the interpretation comment, I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, it is easy to have differing beliefs within Christianity such as the five main rapture beliefs (or is it four?). All of these beliefs have their own following and backing. The same is true with OSAS and free-will issues. Which ever belief one holds to, certain other Scriptures must be interpreted in a certain specific way or the belief is proven wrong. So, as I said, it is really a shot against Biblical literalism since, if read completely literally, one can stop sinning and one can't stop sinning right there in the same book of the Bible. One can read some of the verses literally but not others. Not to mention the difference between trans and consubstantiation since the catholics read that part of the Bible far more literally than protestants.

But going back the other argument, what about cults? I would say that your definition Samer is quite good. A church that does not believe all the things typical to Christianity would easily be considered a cult as well as those churches that seem to be in line doctrinally with Christendom but rule their congregations in weird and legalistic ways. Can they be saved? I think some can be, yes. But I think some people in other religions can be saved too, if they have never heard the name Jesus or seen a Bible, otherwise they are denying Christ directly. But can a cult reform? I think they can if they fit into our definition of a cult. If one person can come back over, the entire group probably can as well. Now the crazy wacko cults out there probably can't unless God takes direct action, but some of the lesser weird cults probably could.

[Mindenite]

Actually, the Church of God (Cleveland) though they may never have endorsed it in doctrine, was the denomination that was most famous for snake handling. But this was back in 20s and then 40s. Now, it is nearly a dead practice (good thing for that). So apparently I was mistaken in their current doctrine but it was within many of those churches that snake handling took place.

[Don]

You are still under the assumption that God's grace is a static thing. As I said, it is not a present that God gives one once one is saved and then leaves that person to fend for oneself with the static grace given.
...
That is probably what upsets me the most is the fact that many Christians believe that they know something about every Christian; that is simply not possible and is quite arrogant in my eyes.I am being misunderstood even after explaining myself, so I'm just going to stop now. It's pointless for me to continue.

[Brad MetalMan]

Actually, the Church of God (Cleveland) though they may never have endorsed it in doctrine, was the denomination that was most famous for snake handling. But this was back in 20s and then 40s. Now, it is nearly a dead practice (good thing for that). So apparently I was mistaken in their current doctrine but it was within many of those churches that snake handling took place.

Can you provide a reliable source for that. Not to sound arrogant but I think I am in a better position to know if this is the case or not.

[Mindenite]

That is one of the "advantages" that the catholic church has over us protestants. I cannot possibly see how you have come to accept your views and you mine. But, I wouldn't have it any other way since uniformity is sometimes much worse than diversity.

[Mindenite]

I am not saying that the church itself sanctioned such actions but they did occur within certain specific churches. It probably isn't the type of thing taught at seminiar just like I doubt catholics in seminiar are taught why the protestants broke away from them (indulgences, etc.) even if they may know of what happened. Just by typing in "snake handlers" into a search engine without any other biases, I got this webpage (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Snakes.html). Again, I am not saying that the church itself endorsed such activity and I actually apologize for making that assumption.

Edited to add: Ooh, the CoG (Cleveland) repudiated snake handling in the 20s, sweet. So, it took place in their churches but they did reject it as a valid Christian practice, and then those snake handlers broke off and formed their own weird church. Cool, it is always good to get one's facts straight :):

[Brad MetalMan]

I am not saying that the church itself sanctioned such actions but they did occur within certain specific churches. It probably isn't the type of thing taught at seminiar just like I doubt catholics in seminiar are taught why the protestants broke away from them (indulgences, etc.) even if they may know of what happened. Just by typing in "snake handlers" into a search engine without any other biases, I got this webpage (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Snakes.html). Again, I am not saying that the church itself endorsed such activity and I actually apologize for making that assumption.

Edited to add: Ooh, the CoG (Cleveland) repudiated snake handling in the 20s, sweet. So, it took place in their churches but they did reject it as a valid Christian practice, and then those snake handlers broke off and formed their own weird church. Cool, it is always good to get one's facts straight :):

Really none of that surprises me, that snake handling did take place. There are some strange characters in the Church of God, but still more and more I believe that they are moving into mainstream evangelicalism.