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Now You See HIM
October 21st, 2004, 05:46 PM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html (linked from today's [first] CT Weblog)

"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." —Albert Einstein

Joel Primack has a long and distinguished career as an astrophysicist. A University of California, Santa Cruz, professor, he co-developed the cold dark matter theory that seeks to explain the formation and structure of the universe.

He also believes in God.

That may strike some people as peculiar. After all, in some corners popular belief renders science and religion incompatible.

Yet scientists may be just as likely to believe in God as other people, according to surveys. Some of history's greatest scientific minds, including Albert Einstein, were convinced there is intelligent life behind the universe. Today many scientists say there is no conflict between their faith and their work.

"In the last few years astronomy has come together so that we're now able to tell a coherent story" of how the universe began, Primack said. "This story does not contradict God, but instead enlarges [the idea of] God."

Evolution
The notion that science and religion are irreconcilable centers in large part on the issue of evolution. Charles Darwin, in his 1859 book The Origin of Species, explained that the myriad species inhabiting Earth were a result of repeated evolutionary branching from common ancestors.

One would be hard pressed to find a legitimate scientist today who does not believe in evolution. As laid out in a cover story in the November issue of National Geographic magazine, the scientific evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

Yet in a 2001 Gallup poll 45 percent of U.S. adults said they believe evolution has played no role in shaping humans. According to the creationist view, God produced humans fully formed, with no previous related species.

But what if evolution is God's tool? Darwin never said anything about God. Many scientists—and theologians—maintain that it would be perfectly logical to think that a divine being used evolution as a method to create the world.

Still, science does contradict a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis in the Bible—on the origin of the universe—which says that God created heaven and the Earth and the species on it in six days.

Scientific evidence shows that the universe was actually formed about 13.7 billion years ago, while the Earth was formed around 4.5 billion years ago. The first humans date back only a hundred thousand years or so.

Like other scientists of faith, Primack, who is Jewish and reads the Bible regularly, argues that the Bible must not be taken literally, but should be read allegorically.

"One simply cannot read the Bible as a scientific text, because it's often contradictory," Primack said. "For example, in the Bible, Noah takes two animals and puts them on the Ark. But in a later section, he takes seven pairs of animals. If this is the literal word of God, was God confused when He wrote it?"

Proving God
Science is young. The term "scientist" may not even have been coined until 1833. Ironically, modern physics initially sought to explain the clockwork of God's creation. Geology grew partly out of a search for evidence of Noah's Flood.

Today few scientists seem to think much about religion in their research. Many are reluctant to stray outside their area of expertise and may not feel a need to invoke God in their work.

"Most scientists like to operate in the context of economy," said Brian Greene, a world-renowned physicist and author of The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality. "If you don't need an explanatory principle, don't invoke it."

There is, of course, no way to prove religious faith scientifically. And it's hard to envision a test that could tell the difference between a universe created by God and one that appeared without God.

"There's no way that scientists can ever rule out religion, or even have anything significant to say about the abstract idea of a divine creator," Greene said.

Instead, Greene said, science and religion can operate in different realms. "Science is very good at answering the 'how' questions. How did the universe evolve to the form that we see?" he said. "But it is woefully inadequate in addressing the 'why' questions. Why is there a universe at all? These are the meaning questions, which many people think religion is particularly good at dealing with."

But is a clean separation between science and religion possible? Some scientific work, including such hot topics as stem cell research, has moral and religious implications.

"Religion is about ethics, or what you should do, while science is about what's true," Primack said. "Those are different things, but of course what you should do is greatly determined by what's true."

Natural Laws
In a 1997 survey in the science journal Nature, 40 percent of U.S. scientists said they believe in God—not just a creator, but a God to whom one can pray in expectation of an answer. That is the same percentage of scientists who were believers when the survey was taken 80 years earlier.

But the number may have been higher if the question had simply asked about God's existence. While many scientists seem to have no problem with deism—the belief that God set the universe in motion and then walked away—others are more troubled with the concept of an intervening God.

"Every piece of data that we have indicates that the universe operates according to unchanging, immutable laws that don't allow for the whimsy or divine choice to all of a sudden change things in a manner that those laws wouldn't have allowed to happen on their own," Greene said.

Yet recent breakthroughs in chaos theory and quantum mechanics, for example, also suggest that the workings of the universe cannot be predicted with absolute precision.

To many scientists, their discoveries may not be that different from religious revelations. Science advancements may even draw scientists closer to religion.

"Even as science progresses in its reductionist fashion, moving towards deeper, simpler, and more elegant understandings of particles and forces, there will still remain a 'why' at the end as to why the ultimate rules are the way they are," said Ted Sargent, a nanotechnology expert at the University of Toronto.

"This is where many people will find God, and the fact of having a final unanswerable 'why' will not go away, even if the 'why' gets more and more fundamental as we progress," he said.

Brian Greene believes we are taking giant strides toward understanding the deepest laws of the universe. That, he says, has strengthened his belief in the underlying harmony and order of the cosmos.

"The universe is incredibly wondrous, incredibly beautiful, and it fills me with a sense that there is some underlying explanation that we have yet to fully understand," he said. "If someone wants to place the word God on those collections of words, it's OK with me."

4Jesus
October 21st, 2004, 06:18 PM
:freaked
Sounds like satan is trying to confuse people with offering a "belief" like this.

Slippery
October 21st, 2004, 09:02 PM
Sure it can coexist, in a deluded mind.

slyguy
October 21st, 2004, 11:41 PM
satan is confusing people into believing science and christianity can agree?
what's wrong with a Christian believing in evolution?
would you call C.S. Lewis a deluded mind?

YBIC
james

frisian1970
October 22nd, 2004, 12:36 AM
:freaked
Sounds like satan is trying to confuse people with offering a "belief" like this.
Belief like what?

frisian1970
October 22nd, 2004, 12:37 AM
Sure it can coexist, in a deluded mind.

How so?

BloodoftheLamb
October 22nd, 2004, 12:49 AM
God is the greatest scientist ever, the ones here are too dumb to discover him yet.

Jiggy37
October 22nd, 2004, 03:34 AM
God is the greatest scientist ever, the ones here are too dumb to discover him yet.Everyone's too dumb to discover God until they meet Him face-to-face...

BenalishSiward
October 22nd, 2004, 04:26 AM
Science and Religion should be completely compatible. At its purest form, Science is the unending quest to discover the complete glory of God's creation.

As an environmental science major, I have to say that everything I learn about this planet only strengthens my faith in the greatness of the Lord, because He made all this possible.

el Gusano
October 22nd, 2004, 04:42 AM
So many scientific discoveries have been made because of a basic belief in God and therefore an orderly universe. God made everything the way it is. Unless you believe He's sneaky, there's not a bunch of stuff out there that looks one way, so that you have to ignore it to see the "truth".

The only two theories of the creation of our world that are incompatible with Scripture are natural evolution and absolute six day creation. Everything else is fair game.

Now, I don't think that theistic evolution is correct, at least on a macro-evolutionary scale, but it's not ruled out by Scripture.

slyguy
October 22nd, 2004, 05:15 AM
The only two theories of the creation of our world that are incompatible with Scripture are natural evolution ...
Now, I don't think that theistic evolution is correct, at least on a macro-evolutionary scale, but it's not ruled out by Scripture.
if it's not ruled out by Scripture, then how is evolution incompatible with it?

YBIC
james

frisian1970
October 22nd, 2004, 09:26 AM
if it's not ruled out by Scripture, then how is evolution incompatible with it?

YBIC
james


I believe he stated natural evolution, which from my understanding wouldn't include a God.

Hootmon
October 22nd, 2004, 09:58 AM
Science and Religion should be completely compatible. At its purest form, Science is the unending quest to discover the complete glory of God's creation.

As an environmental science major, I have to say that everything I learn about this planet only strengthens my faith in the greatness of the Lord, because He made all this possible.:clap

slyguy
October 22nd, 2004, 12:33 PM
I believe he stated natural evolution, which from my understanding wouldn't include a God.

duly noted :thumb

YBIC
james

el Gusano
October 23rd, 2004, 07:01 AM
Thanks for answering for me Frisian, as I've been gone all day.

onsolidrock
October 23rd, 2004, 07:52 AM
The fact that God said that all animals are after their kind, and the fact that animals cannot be crossed today, rules out evolution completely

HeIsEnough
October 23rd, 2004, 08:37 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with science, its the conclusions that some scientists draw that is the problem. God did create something, after all. So it would be foolish to just say they are incompatable.

Yet, science does give an unbeliever much ammo with which to remain in their unbelief.

Hootmon
October 23rd, 2004, 11:00 AM
The fact that God said that all animals are after their kind, and the fact that animals cannot be crossed today, rules out evolution completelyActually, it doesnt...

Hootmon
October 23rd, 2004, 11:02 AM
There is nothing inherently wrong with science, its the conclusions that some scientists draw that is the problem. God did create something, after all. So it would be foolish to just say they are incompatable.:nod


Yet, science does give an unbeliever much ammo with which to remain in their unbelief. You could say the same thing about so-called 'Creation Science'...

Jiggy37
October 23rd, 2004, 09:19 PM
The fact that God said that all animals are after their kind, and the fact that animals cannot be crossed today, rules out evolution completelyThe strawman version of evolution, sure. Interspecies breeding is not the basis of evolution, which is something we need to make sure we realize before going after it...

BloodoftheLamb
October 23rd, 2004, 09:32 PM
Would love to see this one..

Hubble telescope discovers location of Heaven,
Pictures of Pearly Gates with hosts of angels!

Jiggy37
October 24th, 2004, 12:45 AM
Would love to see this one..

Hubble telescope discovers location of Heaven,
Pictures of Pearly Gates with hosts of angels!:confused I was under the impression that most here believe that heaven is not within this universe... I hold to that, personally.

BloodoftheLamb
October 24th, 2004, 02:09 AM
Yall need to lighten up sometimes in here.

Mainly I was saying it would be amazing if science produced some cold hard facts about God that no one could deny.

Then of course they would.

A sense of humor is a good thing jiggy.

Jiggy37
October 24th, 2004, 02:47 AM
Yall need to lighten up sometimes in here.

Mainly I was saying it would be amazing if science produced some cold hard facts about God that no one could deny.

Then of course they would.Would what? Produce them or deny them? :confused
A sense of humor is a good thing jiggy.Yeah, but it's kind of hard when you can't figure out that it's a joke. :wacko

heavenlierealm
October 24th, 2004, 03:35 AM
Umm yeah sure ...God has such a high value on us that he let us evolve from monkeys...riiiiggghht :hrm

el Gusano
October 24th, 2004, 04:30 AM
Mainly I was saying it would be amazing if science produced some cold hard facts about God that no one could deny.

Then of course they would.



I was talking to my wife about that the other day. There are some new satellite photos taken that is giving some ark searchers a new place to look. Personally, I don't think they'll find the remains of the ark: I think that it woule be obliterated and I don't think God would let us find it.

However, if those guys go up there, find the remains of the ark, and find grafitti (sp?) that says, "Noah was here", I think the only ones that would believe were the ones who are already borderline. I think it would be a bump and nothing more.

A photo of heaven? I was photoshopped by aliens!

BenalishSiward
October 24th, 2004, 05:39 AM
I was talking to my wife about that the other day. There are some new satellite photos taken that is giving some ark searchers a new place to look. Personally, I don't think they'll find the remains of the ark: I think that it woule be obliterated and I don't think God would let us find it.

However, if those guys go up there, find the remains of the ark, and find grafitti (sp?) that says, "Noah was here", I think the only ones that would believe were the ones who are already borderline. I think it would be a bump and nothing more.

A photo of heaven? I was photoshopped by aliens!

There will always be people who don't believe. Can't let them stop us from discovering the glory of God's Creation. :):

HeIsEnough
October 24th, 2004, 06:54 AM
You could say the same thing about so-called 'Creation Science'...

Ok Hoot. I was referring to unbelief in God, which is different then unbelief in the claims of scientists about origins. If you put people such as martinm on the line about this, it really is a stumbling block, or at least they claim, since they cannot reconcile the Genesis record and modern beliefs on origins. Whereas a yec is generally believing what they read and interpret in the scriptures, but are still believers. I understand the frustration towards both sides, but belief in God is what matters the most.

Hootmon
October 24th, 2004, 11:30 AM
Would love to see this one..

Hubble telescope discovers location of Heaven,
Pictures of Pearly Gates with hosts of angels!I think that was a headline on National Enquirer.

Hootmon
October 24th, 2004, 11:38 AM
Ok Hoot. I was referring to unbelief in God, which is different then unbelief in the claims of scientists about origins. I understand.

However, some believers put as much 'faith' in Creation Science as unbelievers put into 'regular' Science, while neither side is taking into account the 'whole picture'.


If you put people such as martinm on the line about this, it really is a stumbling block, or at least they claim, since they cannot reconcile the Genesis record and modern beliefs on origins. Whereas a yec is generally believing what they read and interpret in the scriptures, but are still believers. The problem is that there is just as much of a danger of mis-interpretation of Scripture with either scenario. Both groups discard the 'facts' of the other.

IMO, this is a bad thing for both groups.


I understand the frustration towards both sides, but belief in God is what matters the most.Certainly. But using bad 'science' wont do anything to convince the scientifically inclined. All it does is help reinforce the conviction for those who already believe in a particular interpretation of the facts. 'Preaching to the Choir', if you will...

slyguy
October 25th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Umm yeah sure ...God has such a high value on us that he let us evolve from monkeys...riiiiggghht :hrm
the theory of evolution does not say we evolved from monkies. it says we and monkies share a common ancestor.

kind of like a rebuen sandwich and a hot ham & cheese sandwich share ancestory to the Earl of Sandwich's creation long ago.

YBIC
james

heavenlierealm
October 25th, 2004, 02:25 AM
the theory of evolution does not say we evolved from monkies. it says we and monkies share a common ancestor.

kind of like a rebuen sandwich and a hot ham & cheese sandwich share ancestory to the Earl of Sandwich's creation long ago.

YBIC
james
:pound :pound
Yeah but many DO look like monkeys :heh

el Gusano
October 25th, 2004, 03:36 AM
Ok Hoot. I was referring to unbelief in God, which is different then unbelief in the claims of scientists about origins. If you put people such as martinm on the line about this, it really is a stumbling block, or at least they claim, since they cannot reconcile the Genesis record and modern beliefs on origins. Whereas a yec is generally believing what they read and interpret in the scriptures, but are still believers. I understand the frustration towards both sides, but belief in God is what matters the most.

But, if someone is already a Christian, should they not be discerning what Scriptures say? Isn't this one way to discuss it, by putting it here in this forum?

I knew a man who would not believe because the people witnessing to him taught YEC, and that was just contrary to what he could see with his eyes; he frankly told them that he wanted nothing to do with a God that would be that sneaky to try to deceive people. A few years later, when he was shown that Scriptures do not support an absolute 6 day creation, it was like a little light went on in his head, he studied like crazy, and then accepted Jesus as his savior.

Teaching YEC can also be a stumbling block.

HeIsEnough
October 25th, 2004, 05:45 AM
But, if someone is already a Christian, should they not be discerning what Scriptures say? Isn't this one way to discuss it, by putting it here in this forum?

Oh, I do not think posting these issues here is a bad thing at all. Talking amongst christians is a much better way.


I knew a man who would not believe because the people witnessing to him taught YEC, and that was just contrary to what he could see with his eyes; he frankly told them that he wanted nothing to do with a God that would be that sneaky to try to deceive people. A few years later, when he was shown that Scriptures do not support an absolute 6 day creation, it was like a little light went on in his head, he studied like crazy, and then accepted Jesus as his savior.

Teaching YEC can also be a stumbling block.

Yeppers, I would agree. There is a side of the coin for each of us, how many are on each side would be an interesting bit of information. I have read many little potshots directed at christians and their "flat earth" ways, in all manner of publications. If you listen carefully, there is never any acknowledgment of God at all, and there never will be because most scientists feel the evidence sufficiently rules out a God by their discoveries.

You cannot get over the plain language of Genesis, in that God did it, which is exactly where science says baloney, "we see no evidence for God" Don't sit and wait for anything from the scientific community that resembles any concession toward a Creator, they have already looked and did not find Him. Afterall, there are some sticky bits of scripture that are not easily resolved.
I appreciate how many do not like the likes of Hovind and others, but just wander around scientific thought for a while and you will find God is far more outdated then just mere creationist claims.

Do you personally feel there is something out there to be discovered that will sufficiently prove God, scientifically? I do not, and I don't think it by accident. For every scientific discovery, there is a tangent to lead someone away from belief, just because it CANNOT be conceded that God somehow did it.

BenalishSiward
October 27th, 2004, 04:29 AM
Alot of people make a great amount of noise about Chaos Theory, which is mostly a mathematical concept, that no human or human creation can accurately predict the future due to the infinite number of variables involved in everyday existence.

If that's not God's hand in the creation of the universe to keep people from fortune telling, I don't know what is. :P:

HeIsEnough
October 27th, 2004, 09:14 AM
Certainly. But using bad 'science' wont do anything to convince the scientifically inclined. All it does is help reinforce the conviction for those who already believe in a particular interpretation of the facts. 'Preaching to the Choir', if you will...

There is nothing taught in modern science that will lead one to God. Science has one aim, scientists have another, and don't think for a minute it is the alturistic pursuit of truth. The heart is what will lead the mind, unfortunately, the typical heart of the agnostic scientist is as corrupt as the average bear, just a lot more sophisticated cloaking devices are employed.

Hootmon
October 27th, 2004, 09:28 AM
There is nothing taught in modern science that will lead one to God. I agree, but the reverse is also True.

There is nothing taught in modern science that will prevent one from finding God.


Science has one aim, scientists have another, and don't think for a minute it is the alturistic pursuit of truth. The heart is what will lead the mind, unfortunately, the typical heart of the agnostic scientist is as corrupt as the average bear, just a lot more sophisticated cloaking devices are employed. Im surprised that you are seemingly equating 'scientists' with 'atheists'.

HeIsEnough
October 27th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Im surprised that you are seemingly equating 'scientists' with 'atheists'.

Broad brushes are not always true, thats fer sure. But atheism, ala agnostic, has a powerful ally in science, as the superficial analysis goes. To get people to dive deeper is quite difficult, if not impossible. My frustration comes out at times, in that the arguments given typically follow the same old line of thinking.

Certainly though, my intentions were not to say one is a subset of the other, more that both contain a vastly overwhelming majority of the same thoughts between the two.

There is nothing taught in modern science that will prevent one from finding God.

I agree in theory, but reality tends to slap people around a bit.

frisian1970
October 27th, 2004, 10:45 AM
Ah, but "using" Science as a reason for disbelief isn't the cause of disbelief, rather a symptom or an effect IMO.

BenalishSiward
October 27th, 2004, 12:20 PM
Using Science as a reason for disbelief is like using a hammer to open your car door. You have to ignore alot of things to do so (like the keyhole in the door).

HeIsEnough
October 27th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Yet, the reason offered for disbelief is invariably based upon the findings and precepts of science.

Your task, if you choose to accept it, is to bring about looking above science, or around as the case may be, and present the gospel. Not because it will work by persuasive logic or argumentation, but because it is something you have been given to do.

Jiggy37
October 27th, 2004, 08:31 PM
Do you personally feel there is something out there to be discovered that will sufficiently prove God, scientifically?Not only do I personally "feel" that there's something out there to be discovered that will prove it, but I think that logic shows that there's nothing out there like that. Faith is held up in the Bible as a good thing, but if a belief in God is caused by proof rather than faith, then what's the point?
For every scientific discovery, there is a tangent to lead someone away from belief, just because it CANNOT be conceded that God somehow did it.And the same thing for every non-scientific discovery. ;): Some wrongly concluded that Jesus was casting out demons by the authority of Satan, for example.

BloodoftheLamb
October 27th, 2004, 08:55 PM
What part did science have when people scoffed in Jesus face?

None. I think hell will be full of people going, Science cant prove this!.....aihhhhh!!

Jiggy37
October 28th, 2004, 02:04 AM
What part did science have when people scoffed in Jesus face?

None.Which was my point when I said "the same thing for every non-scientific discovery."

HeIsEnough
October 28th, 2004, 05:30 AM
Not only do I personally "feel" that there's something out there to be discovered that will prove it, but I think that logic shows that there's nothing out there like that. Faith is held up in the Bible as a good thing, but if a belief in God is caused by proof rather than faith, then what's the point?

The question was rhetorical jiggy, in that science will never give rise to an explanation that is antithetical to its purpose.


And the same thing for every non-scientific discovery. ;): Some wrongly concluded that Jesus was casting out demons by the authority of Satan, for example.

I'm not holding a position that is up for debate really, but I did want to see reactions to basic scientific assumptions, aka naturalism. I guess my thoughts are not coming through clearly, or I can't get them from my wee brain to writing.