Question about the AC

[kerri]

Question: Do you think the AC will profess to be a Christian? (I always thought he would claim roots in all 3 major religions)

And if so: Should people judge his fruits and openly question the validity of his claim to others who may believe it?

Where do Christians draw the line?

I know we aren't supposed to judge hearts because of course we can't (and the AC won't be wearing a banner- so I don't know if we'll know right away)- but what about those who claim to be Christian who show rotten fruit...

Since we won't *know* who he is right away, what should our approach be?

Should we warn others that the person in question is a false prophet based on their fruits or would that be judging their heart if we ended up being wrong? :confused

I'm asking this based on the premise of the AC publically being revealed (as a public figure(?) ) before we are raptured (I *THINK* its in that order- correct?) ... (also... Is he outed as a public figure before he signs the treaty with Israel?)

Or do you think we *WILL* somehow know right away when we see him?

My mind was going in circles about this today.

[Blessed2B]

My OPINION is that he will have some Jewish roots, simply because satan loves to imitate God. The bible calls the AC the 'assyrian', so I tend to think he will be from Syria. (makes sense to me).

[kerri]

I too think he'll have Jewish roots and Muslim too- and also claim to be Christian as well to reach out to those who had "claimed" to be Christians but really weren't and therefore were/will be left behind (depending on when he is publically outed in relation to the rapture).

Perhaps, the *thing* that reveals him as a public figure IS the signing of the treaty with Israel and we Christians KNOW right away who he is but are raptured right away before we can warn anyone anyway.

And when exactly do the two witnesses appear? Do they come on the scene right away during the trib until the 3 1/2 year mark when they are killed?

Perhaps- its THEM who reveal him right away as a phony to the jews and the remaining gentiles who turn to Christ.

*brainstorming here*

And perhaps- this is even another pointer toward a pre-trib rapture- because Chrsitans won't be needed or even here to point the AC out to those he is deceiving... hence, God uses the witnesses to do that job.

[bopeep1909]

I do not think he will confess to be a "Christian" and talk about Jesus Christ. The people who will be left on the earth at that time could care less if he is a christian or not in fact it might really turn them off.He will come across as a very compassionate,understand,wise and intelligent individual. He will take the hearts of millions with his cunning lies.<><

[kerri]

I do not think he will confess to be a "Christian" and talk about Jesus Christ. The people who will be left on the earth at that time could care less if he is a christian or not in fact it might really turn them off.He will come across as a very compassionate,understand,wise and intelligent individual. He will take the hearts of millions with his cunning lies.<><
Well- there WILL be a lot of people who claim to be Christians (i/e: those who think being baptised in a Christian church as an infant is a one way ticket to heaven etc..) but really aren't that are left behind...

Won't there have to be some sort of religious talk out of him considering there will be a one world religion?

If he DOES claim to be a christian in any capacity- I'm thinking it will be more of a universalist sort of way where Jesus is spoken of as a philospher and nothing more.

[blitzkreig]

He won't claim to be Christian. He claims to be Christ. He will perform great miracles. The whole world will receive him as God. He is a "false Christ". God will send a delusion so that they will believe a lie:2Th 2:9-12
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
and if it were possible even Christians ... the elect would believe it (but of course we are not here but raptured to heaven by that time so it isn't possible)Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[Lonewolf7]

Question: Do you think the AC will profess to be a Christian? (I always thought he would claim roots in all 3 major religions)

He will profess to be the founder......Matt 24:23

And if so: Should people judge his fruits and openly question the validity of his claim to others who may believe it?
Where do Christians draw the line?

Once again.....Matt 24:23


I know we aren't supposed to judge hearts because of course we can't (and the AC won't be wearing a banner- so I don't know if we'll know right away)-

Or do you think we *WILL* somehow know right away when we see him?

2 Thess 2:9 tells of his arrival onto the world scene.....

.

[cindyw]

II Thess. 2:4. I believe the "temple" represents the "church"...........

[Christine]

Cindy, please take the preterist comments to the RDD.

[cindyw]

Cindy, please take the preterist comments to the RDD.

preterist??? :confused

[Christine]

Shorthand. ;):

Lets call it non-literal anti-dispensational eschatological interpretations then.

Now scoot :boink

[cindyw]

Shorthand. ;):

Lets call it non-literal anti-dispensational eschatological interpretations then.

Now scoot :boink

Non literal? Paul taught in Corinthians that WE (the church) are the temple of God, so that is not my "private" interpretation of "temple". There are dispensational people who believe exactly that...... :faint The "concept" is biblically reinforced by Paul's teachings ..........now, I'll scoot......... :B: :wave

[Ponderin]

:focus

:popcorn

[Christine]

If in Revelations, John is told to measure the temple, then one can safely assume that there is something there to actually "measure" per his description.

Seeing as how this site is a pre-trib, dispensational site who has opened up a forum specifically for differing viewpoints to be expressed, it is VERY disappointing to me that people feel the uncontrollable urge to continue to post outside of that forum just to see what arguments they can stir up for argument's sake. :(:

[Ponderin]

Me too. :sad

[kerri]

2 thes 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth F5 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=2th+2:9&t=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en#F5) that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

K- So is it safe to say he will not be revealed until the church and the Spirit are removed- or is it just his wickedness that isn't revealed until then?

as far as Matthew 24 and the false Christs... does the AC claim to be Jesus Christ himself or does he claim to be the Messiah that the Jews (and muslims?) are waiting for...

or maybe he claims to be a reincarnation of JesusChrist/Buddah/Elijah/Mohammed or something (I think this is what the new agers would buy into).

I'm trying to figure out what he will claim to be (aside from his signs and wonders) in order for the whole world to go after him as a god in the one world religion.


More questions: What about the witnesses- do we know exactly when they appear on the scene? I know we know when they are killed.

And do you guys think it is kind of "more proof" for a pre-trib rapture that Scripture only talks of the witnesses (and the 144,000 jews and the angels?) as being the only ones preaching and bringing to light the decpetion going on by the AC during that time?

also- in Matt 24:9- it speaks of ALL the nations hating Christians:
9 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+24:9&sr=1&t=kjv)Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+24:10&sr=1&t=kjv)And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

It seems to me that America is one of the few countries left in this world that doesnt have a real growing hatred of Christians (as a nation- I know someindividuals do)... do you think this means America has to turn and become hateful of Christians as well before the rapture?

Or maybe the rapture will make America not even her own nation anymore (from such a great loss of people) so she isn't included in the "ALL" nations in this verse?

what do you guys think?

[kerri]

btw- sorry for the jumbled mass of questions but the more I try to sort this out through my mind lately (since we know its SO close now) - the more these things and my thoughts to the possibilities have been jumbling together :wacko

Hope you guys can understand the questions in my posts :doh

edit: Kevin- get in here and straighten my head out! :laugh

[antitox]

I think that over time there will be a general dislike/hatred growing and that the AC will just take it and push it over the edge by stating that "these 'people' are a hindrance to the progress of society in this new age and that it is better that we remove this 'virus' so that the world can move forward." The new agers already have this kind of perspective and I believe that it is growing in America, even though it is still small.

[blitzkreig]

I have posted this a while ago but it may be worth re-posting. Here are 48 prophecies known about the antichrist:

The antichrist will be a man - Daniel 7:24-25

He will confirm a covenant for 7 years - Daniel 9:27

Now also, this does not mean that he creates this covenant. The word here for "confirm" is 1396 gabar (gaw-bar'); a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently: KJV-- exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

The antichrist will strengthen a covenant for a 7 year time span. Now this could be an existing covenant (like the Jerusalem Covenant) or a new covenant drawn up at that time.

He will rise among 10 kings - Daniel 7:8

This 10 nation union will be a revived Holy Roman Empire - Daniel 2:44

He will uproot 3 kings from the original 10 kings to gain political power - Daniel 7:8

His 10 nation union will merge into a world government which he will dominate - Revelations 13:1-2

Now this also, could refer to several things. First, the 10 nations could merge into an EXISTING world government, such as the U.N. Or it could for a new world government, much like the U.N. Or, this 10 nation confederation could be something like the new 10 nation common stock market. A union like this would definitely rule the world, without having a "seat" of power. Whoever controls the money, controls the globe.

He will ascend to power on a platform of peace. By peace, he will destroy many - Daniel 8:25

He will be promoted and exalted by a miracle working religious partner (false prophet) - Revelations 13:11-12

He was, and is not, and yet is - Revelations 17:8

More than likely this is referring to political power. The antichrist will have ruled, but then be taken out of power. Only to rise back up again to power as the head of the One World Government.

The world government over which he rules will be a red (communistic or socialistic) government - Revelations 17:14

The antichrist will be preceded by 7 kings or rulers. He will be the 8th king. He will also be "of" the 7 - Revelations 17:11

Now this scripture has many different ways it can be viewed. The word "goeth" in the scripture is 5217 hupago (hoop-ag'-o); from 5259 and 71; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: KJV-- depart, get hence, go (a-) way. So we see that he will withdraw or retire from sight. But will rise back up again to power.

Now this could be taken as to mean 7 kings. Or this could be taken as 7 World Governments that have ruled. So far there have been 6.

1. Egypt. 2. Assyria. 3. Babylon. 4. Medo-Persia. 5. Greece. 6. Rome

He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8

His look will be more stout than his fellows - Daniel 7:20

The word "stout" means 7227 rab (rab); by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality): KJV-- (in) abound (-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great (-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, [time]), (do, have) many (-ifold, things, a time), ([ship-]) master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply (-tude), officer, often [-times], plenteous, populous, prince, process [of time], suffice (-lent).

So this can have several meanings. It could mean one of the following: the antichrist will be larger in size than everybody else, will be older than everybody else, will have more of a "following" than anybody else, is a higher military or political rank than anybody else, or is more qualified than anybody else. What ever this verse is speaking about, it is obvious when you look at him.

He will have a fierce countenance - Daniel 8:23

He will understand puzzling things - Daniel 8:23

He will cause craft to prosper - Daniel 8:25

It is interesting to note the definition of the word "craft" here. It is 4820 mirmah (meer-maw'); from 7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: KJV-- craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery. No wonder, for the Bible says that he is the father of lies. So his policy or his success will make it possible for his deception of the world to prosper. God said that if you do not believe the truth, that he would send strong delusion that you
should believe a lie.

He apparently assumes world dominating power 3 1/2 years after he confirms the covenant. He then will continue to reign for 42 months - Revelations 13:5

The Abomination of Desolation is the event that signals the beginning of this final 42 months - Daniel 9:27

It is interesting to note, that many scholars believe that at the Abomination of Desolation is when Revelations 12:7-10 occurs. At which point the Antichrist becomes "possessed" by Satan himself and then forces the Mark or death upon everybody.

He opposes God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will speak marvelous things against the God of gods - Daniel 11:36

He will exalt himself above all that is called God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will sit in the temple of God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will claim to be God (or an incarnation of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will take away the daily sacrifices from the temple - Daniel 11:31

He will plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain - Daniel 11:45

It would seem here that the Antichrist will setup small "fortifications" in between the sea and Jerusalem, to help keep control over things in distant areas away from the main offices.

He will have power to make war with the saints and to overcome them - Revelations 13:7

He will continue this war with the saints for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:21, 25

This time of Great Tribulation is launched upon the Earth by the antichrist at the Abomination of Desolation. - Matthew 24:15,21.

Up until this time, it would seem that he is a man of peace and not war. But now he shows his true colors. Perhaps is possessed by Satan himself at this point as well. Which would account for the false front being dropped at this time.

During this time, the antichrist will scatter the power of the holy people - Daniel 12:7

He will rule a mighty and strong kingdom - Daniel 7:7

He was given power over all kindreds, tongues and nations - Revelations 13:7

His kingdom will devour the whole earth - Daniel 7:23

He will have great military power that will stand behind him, to enforce his laws - Daniel 11:31

He will try to change times and laws; and they will be given into his power for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:25

He will give great honor to the God of forces, with gold, silver, jewels, etc - Daniel 11:38

He will prosper in everything that he does - Daniel 8:24

He will not regard the God of his fathers - Daniel 11:37

He will not regard the desire of women - Daniel 11:37

It is interesting to note here that most people think that he will be a homosexual, which could be. But rather I think that he will place limitations upon children being born. Similar to what is being done in China now. Why? Because it is the natural desire of a woman, that God has given to them, to be a mother. By not regarding this natural desire, he would cause a "forced" limit on the amount of children a woman was "allowed" to have.

The mark of the beast will be the amount of his name - Revelations 14:11

All that dwell upon the Earth will worship him, except those who's names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life - Revelations 15:2

He will have an image made after him - Revelations 15:2

This could also be in reference to his kingdom's logo or insignia. Much like the U.N. has a logo that every soldier on a U.N. mission must wear, there might also be a logo or insignia that his armies would have to wear.

His coming will be after the workings of Satan - 2 Thessalonians 2:8

He will fight against Jesus Christ at Armageddon (and loose I might add!) - Revelations 17:14

He will stand against the Prince of princes - Daniel 8:25

The Lord will consume him with the spirit of his mouth (which is the Word of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming (which is his glory) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8

He will be cast alive into the lake of fire - Revelations 19:20

He will be tormented day and night for ever and ever - Revelations 20:10

NOTE that I wasn't the original author of this... but it was a man known only to me by the name of Sam ... who posted it in a newsgroup long ago...

[Butch]

Blitxkreig,

"He was, and is not, and yet is - Revelations 17:8"

"More than likely this is referring to political power. The antichrist will have ruled, but then be taken out of power. Only to rise back up again to power as the head of the One World Government"

I don't think so. The verse states;

The beast who you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit:......

which leads me to believe a more likely scenario would be a fallen angel who "was" when he was helping the nations that tried to destroy Israel(Satans main objective in the days prior to this writing by John), and "is not" in existence at the time that John wrote this, because he was placed in the bottomless pit, awaiting his time when the Lord shall allow him to ascend out of the bottomless pit.

[Butch]

"So is it safe to say he will not be revealed until the church and the Spirit are removed- or is it just his wickedness that isn't revealed until then?

Very safe and yes to both questions.

"as far as Matthew 24 and the false Christs... does the AC claim to be Jesus Christ himself or does he claim to be the Messiah that the Jews (and muslims?) are waiting for..."

The Jewish people will regard him as their spiritual savior, but, will soon realize their mistake.
The world at large will regard him as thier humanistic "savior", as he will be a brilliant man with apparent solutions to worldly problems, first and foremost bringing a temporary peace to the middle east.


"I'm trying to figure out what he will claim to be (aside from his signs and wonders) in order for the whole world to go after him as a god in the one world religion."

You're confusing the AC with the false prophet. They are two different individuals.


"More questions: What about the witnesses- do we know exactly when they appear on the scene? I know we know when they are killed."

Since they are going to prophesy for three and a half years, they most likely will "appear on the scene" at the mid-point of the seven year tribulation perios.

"also- in Matt 24:9- it speaks of ALL the nations hating Christians:
9 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+24:9&sr=1&t=kjv)Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+24:10&sr=1&t=kjv)And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

It seems to me that America is one of the few countries left in this world that doesnt have a real growing hatred of Christians (as a nation- I know someindividuals do)... do you think this means America has to turn and become hateful of Christians as well before the rapture?

Or maybe the rapture will make America not even her own nation anymore (from such a great loss of people) so she isn't included in the "ALL" nations in this verse?

The world hates the brethren now, and this will only intensify as we get closer to the end of the age.

[kerri]

Just want to :bump in case anyone else has any other thoughts

thanks for the verses, Blitz :thumb

[SeaDreamer]

Well, I have a thought. I'm reading Messianic Christology by Arnold Fruchtenbaum and he says:

"The Orthodox Jewish interpretation does not, of course, expect Messiah to come twice, but rather--as will be seen later--expects two Messiahs each coming once."

I haven't gotten to where he explains but thought it was interesting in light of the AC.

[toddlemom]

:tin on? Then it's safe to read ... I just feel very uneasy about the upcoming election ... not saying either candidate is the AC but with all the manipulation going on ... just feel the adversary of our souls is warming up for something. A way to weaken the US as Israel's main ally, a way to subjugate the US to the UN ... :wacko

Man, I"ve got to stop listening to NPR!

YSIC
Ann

[BenalishSiward]

It is interesting to note here that most people think that he will be a homosexual, which could be. But rather I think that he will place limitations upon children being born. Similar to what is being done in China now. Why? Because it is the natural desire of a woman, that God has given to them, to be a mother. By not regarding this natural desire, he would cause a "forced" limit on the amount of children a woman was "allowed" to have.

I had been told that children would not be born during the tribulation. Or I might have read it in Left Behind or something. I don't know. I have a pretty fuzzy memory.

Any word on this?

[antsinmypants]

I had been told that children would not be born during the tribulation. Or I might have read it in Left Behind or something. I don't know. I have a pretty fuzzy memory.

Any word on this?

Children will be born, people will be living life, people will be marrying and giving in marriage, as in the days of Noah.

[kerri]

Well, I have a thought. I'm reading Messianic Christology by Arnold Fruchtenbaum and he says:

"The Orthodox Jewish interpretation does not, of course, expect Messiah to come twice, but rather--as will be seen later--expects two Messiahs each coming once."

I haven't gotten to where he explains but thought it was interesting in light of the AC.
I dont think I have ever heard of this before :freaked

Will they think the AC and false prophet are the two messiahs?

[Joshua's Gen]

I've heard that..

I even saved an explanation of it once in a discussion I had with some Jews to better understand it later.

from what I understand, basically they believe in a 'messiah ben Yosef', and a 'messiah ben David' (to possibly explain away the very present, but vastly different depictions of messiah).

messiah ben Yosef (Joseph) takes the role of Joseph, the suffering servant and such.. Apparently he is killed in a great war, possibly Gog-Magog.. and shortly after this, messiah ben David rescues Israel (military victory).. setting up the throne of David in the earth.

One Jew's explanation.

[Hootmon]

:nod

Personally, I think that the 'messiach ben Yosef' applies to Christ's 1st coming perfectly, but obviously the majority of Jews dont see it that way.

That is likely the primary job of the Two Witnesses. To redirect their attention 'backwards'.

[Joshua's Gen]

:nod

Personally, I think that the 'messiach ben Yosef' applies to Christ's 1st coming perfectly, but obviously the majority of Jews dont see it that way.

That is likely the primary job of the Two Witnesses. To redirect their attention 'backwards'.
Agreed. :nod

Joseph is exactly what Jesus fulfilled... well, partially. I think it's beautiful how Genesis shows so vividly the reuniting ojf Joseph to his brothers which cast him off.

Can you say Israel? :thumb

The two witnesses will indeed draw their attention 'backwards'.. since it's of this guy's opinion the two witnesses will be the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) [who are of a time far backwards in relation to our own], which testify of Christ. :B: But I won't hijack the topic. :B:

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Malachi 4:4-6

[SeaDreamer]

The two witnesses will indeed draw their attention 'backwards'.. since it's of this guy's opinion the two witnesses will be the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) [who are of a time far backwards in relation to our own], which testify of Christ. :B: But I won't hijack the topic. :B:


Are you saying he doesn't believe the Two Witnesses are literal or just that they each represent and testify to the Law and Prophets?

[Joshua's Gen]

I believe they're literal...

Moses.. and Elijah.. two very real people..
each testify, embody the Law, the Prophets..

which speak of messiah.

:):

[SeaDreamer]

I believe they're literal...

Moses.. and Elijah.. two very real people..
each testify, embody the Law, the Prophets..

which speak of messiah.

:):

I misunderstood and thought you were quoting an author who said this. :doh Nevermind. :D:

[SonofFaith]

these 'people' are a hindrance to the progress of society in this new age and that it is better that we remove this 'virus' so that the world can move forward

THe more tolerance is preached to this country and the World..the more the intolerant are Hated...in basic math equals us!...

What eeks me the most is that The Muslim world is being embraced so easily, even though they preach actual HATE, and by definition are not tolerant at all!.and all because of the P.C. tolerant Liberals....I wonder if those liberals know, that if they got caught protesting in a muslim country that they would be hung by thier thumbs and thier feet would be beaten...

Did you know that if you are a homosexual and caught that they will push a wall onto you? seriously..you are bound while a wall is allowed to fall on you lol

[Knight Errant]

I too think he'll have Jewish roots and Muslim too- and also claim to be Christian as well to reach out to those who had "claimed" to be Christians but really weren't and therefore were/will be left behind (depending on when he is publically outed in relation to the rapture).

Perhaps, the *thing* that reveals him as a public figure IS the signing of the treaty with Israel and we Christians KNOW right away who he is but are raptured right away before we can warn anyone anyway.

And when exactly do the two witnesses appear? Do they come on the scene right away during the trib until the 3 1/2 year mark when they are killed?

Perhaps- its THEM who reveal him right away as a phony to the jews and the remaining gentiles who turn to Christ.

*brainstorming here*

And perhaps- this is even another pointer toward a pre-trib rapture- because Chrsitans won't be needed or even here to point the AC out to those he is deceiving... hence, God uses the witnesses to do that job.


If, as I suspect, during the Rapture they are dropped off as we are caught up, then they will have some time to set up before the AC sign that treaty, and will be able to oppose him from the beginning. Maybe their ministry will convert the 144,000 witnesses?!