New Dilemma in the Church

[imfree]

Hi everyone. :):

We had something very unexpected happen at our communion service last Wednesday night and it has sort of been gnawing at me ever since. Usually, before we take the bread and the drink our Pastor explains what communion is, in case there is anyone new there, gives an evangelistic message and extends an invitation to come to Jesus. Well, about six people came forward that night one of which was a transvestite. Cool right? I mean, transvestites need the Lord too...but now what? I mean if you were the Pastor or an elder or just anyone in the fellowship how would you now minister to this person? And what if you're an usher and this person asks for direction to the restroom? Which one do you direct him to? This seems like rather new territory for the church to deal with.

Do you tell him he must change back to his original gender or do you just pray and leave it up to God to change this person's heart? I mean, God obviously touched this person the other night. Personally, I'm rejoicing for him but I really wouldn't know how to handle this one.

What would you do? :confused

[Moony2ns]

Well, this is just my humble opinion, but I think the Pastor should take things slow with this person... not to expect a complete turnaround overnight. Not only should the pastor step up to the plate in discipling this individual, but the entire congregation. We are all called to minister using our gifts. Perhaps this guy (I'm assuming he's a male) has never had a true male role model... well, the men in the church need to step up and lovingly minister to him. Invite him to men's breakfasts, etc. If everyone could see our personal sins on the outside, we would hope that instead of being shunned, we would be accepted into the fold regardless, and then lovingly ministered to. So should we do the same for those whose sins are visual.

Now, if over time, this person doesn't seem to grow or is in rebellion to God's Word, then that's a different matter. I don't think it's inappropriate for the pastor to talk to him about the bathroom situation privately, but I would wait and see if this guy continues to attend church regularly before doing so.

Tough situation, but what a wonderful thing to have happened! :clap

[Rodney]

I've deleted my post in the interest of good taste, as it was up long enough for the original poster to see it and probably contained more information of the phenomenon of transsexuality than was necesary.

[Patty T]

No offense (and thank you for the warning!) to the previous poster, but I could not read your response, so forgive me if I repeat something you might have said.

I think it's just awsome that God draws His children, no matter what shape they find themselves in, to the saving knowledge of Jesus :dancing

Obviously the Holy Spirit is working on the person's heart. I am praying that God will give your Pastor and all in the local church wisdom in how to continue on this path. God knows exactly how to respond and I know He will walk right along side of those who will be discipling this person.

[Rinny-7]

Is this person a transvestite or a postoperative transsexual? The reason I ask is because making the switch from being a transvestite is as simple as changing wardrobes. After having undergone gender reassignment surgery, well that's gonna be much more difficult, not to mention expensive. Would the church be willing to pay for this?

It's wonderful how the Lord loves us all and gives each of us the opportunity to come to Him. I agree with what one other poster said, however and that it that the pastor needs to take it slow with this person. The changes that need to be made will not happen overnight.

[Servant]

This situation came up in my pastor's former church, he was youth pastor there at the time. I will ask him the outcome...

[cindyw]

I agree that this man now needs to be taken under the Pastor's or another elder's wing for intense discipleship. By discipleship, I mean teaching him the Word of God and how it's applied to a believer's life. If he is truly converted, he WILL change..........if he is surrounded by loving, gentle, truthful counsel led by the Spirit of God.........

[carmen]

Whew. I am praying for wisdom for the pastor on this one, and a receptive heart on the part of the transvestite. I think the main thing is that this person needs to understand exactly what the word of God says and why it is wrong for him to dress as a woman. I mean, if he understands that God made him a man for a reason, and prepared good works for him to do (as a man) ahead of time, then God can work through that better than if he is just told, "It's wrong."

[Ajani]

No way I'd be comfortable in a washroom with a man in a dress. I don't care what he believes himself to be. I agree that praying for wisdom for the church is the best way to go.

[imfree]

Hi everyone. I am not sure actually whether this person is a transvestite or a transexual. Hopefully a transvestite. I think it would be a bit more problematic otherwise.

Servant I'd be really curious to know how your pastor handles this situation. I'm really praying that this person will keep seeking the Lord and that our leadership will be given much wisdom as to how to disciple this person.

Thanks for all the replies and prayers guys. :):

[Christine]

I agree that this man now needs to be taken under the Pastor's or another elder's wing for intense discipleship. By discipleship, I mean teaching him the Word of God and how it's applied to a believer's life. Confused here.

Moreso than any other new believer?

For all you know, the 'tally' of any of our sexual (or other) sins was much greater than this mans ever thought about being.

Just because of his appearance, he is judged in need of "intense discipleship" over the others that were mentioned?

:sigh

[Jacinth]

Why would the church be expected to pay for any sex change operations? I don't get that at all.

[Rinny-7]

Why would the church be expected to pay for any sex change operations? I don't get that at all.

The reason I asked that is because *some* churches would expect a transsexual to have the surgery reversed in order to gain their acceptance as far as what they feel to be repentance. This particular surgery is VERY expensive and is not covered by insurance. So what if hypothetically the church expected this and the person couldn't afford it? Would the church then be willing to help with the costs? Just a question.

[cindyw]

Confused here.

Moreso than any other new believer?

For all you know, the 'tally' of any of our sexual (or other) sins was much greater than this mans ever thought about being.

Just because of his appearance, he is judged in need of "intense discipleship" over the others that were mentioned?:sigh

ANY person who is identified in KNOWN sin should be intensely discipled----new or not new Christian. I don't think I made a differentiation in my post. I would feel the same way about a couple that was living together, a known drug addict, a homosexual, etc. ALL new (or old) Christians need to be grounded in the Word of God. I cannot address the "hidden" sins you seem to be intimating as there are many Christians who are seemingly "mature" who inwardly struggle/are overcome, but keep those things hidden. Obviously, if a man is dressing up like a woman, his sins are not hidden. In rightly discipling a person, the underlying issues which cause him to act out in this way(symptom) will be dealt with and healing can take place.

In any case, that is my beef with many churches today. When a person is a new believer, the Church should come alongside the person and disciple them---teaching them to be grounded in the Word of God----so they will be lights in a dark world----by separating themselves from the world's practices and living for Jesus. That is the biblical mandate of evangelization. We should not just see and rejoice that a person is converted, Jesus also taught that they should be taught His Commands (His Word)----the second part of the evangelization process. "Letting the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit" many times is a copout for those who don't want to personally take time with a person and share the Word of God with them----so the WORD, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit , will do a work in the person's life.

[cindyw]

The reason I asked that is because *some* churches would expect a transsexual to have the surgery reversed in order to gain their acceptance as far as what they feel to be repentance. This particular surgery is VERY expensive and is not covered by insurance. So what if hypothetically the church expected this and the person couldn't afford it? Would the church then be willing to help with the costs? Just a question.

I would think if a church believed this person should reverse a surgery in an act of repentance, they WOULD help, since scripture does teach we are to bear each others burdens. I know that scripture can be easily twisted to 'guilt' others to help, but when someone is trying to do their very best to live for God and they still need help, we as believers should be there. JMHO.

[Christine]

Hi Cindy :wave

I am not questioning your comments about not patting new believers on the head and sending them on their way - not at all!

What I am questioning is the logic that says that we need to pick and choose "intense discipleship" based on some level of picking and choosing sins.

What of ministers who deal with porn addictions? Those are what you would deem "hidden sins" yet these are the people responsible for leading the flock!

I think that as a body, we should take the approach that ALL sin can be forgiven and counsel people into their walk with Christ without singling them out based on our own judgmental opinions. But you already know where I stand on this picking and choosing thing. ;):

[cindyw]

I am not questioning your comments about not patting new believers on the head and sending them on their way - not at all!



Then why question me since I didn't say anything in my post that would lead one to believe I was picking just on this one sin in particular? I think voicing my disappointment on the church's lack of disciplieship practices OVERALL(ie; my many interactions on the PDL and seeker sensitive threads) bear that out. I TOO, am not a one sin focuser as evidenced by those discussions.;):

[Jael]

Hi Cindy :wave

I am not questioning your comments about not patting new believers on the head and sending them on their way - not at all!

What I am questioning is the logic that says that we need to pick and choose "intense discipleship" based on some level of picking and choosing sins.

What of ministers who deal with porn addictions? Those are what you would deem "hidden sins" yet these are the people responsible for leading the flock!

I think that as a body, we should take the approach that ALL sin can be forgiven and counsel people into their walk with Christ without singling them out based on our own judgmental opinions. But you already know where I stand on this picking and choosing thing. ;):

Christine, I understand what Cindy means by intense discipleship...I don't think it has anything to do with singling out some sins as worse than others. It's just that some of us come to Christ with ONGOING strongholds in our lives that cause us to need more care and hand-holding in the beginning. I came to Christ with an active addiction (and I was nearly suicidal at the time) - I definitely needed more intense counselling and follow-up than some of my other new brothers and sisters in Christ. Were my sins worse than others? By no means. But I was more deeply entangled in sin than some others are...I needed more help to understand my freedom in Christ and how to walk in it. And teaching wasn't enough...I needed someone to be there for me, to answer my questions, to hold me accountable, to check on me, to help me stand against temptation, to listen when I needed to talk, to stand in the gap for me. In the same way, a transvestite comes to Christ with an active stronghold that may cause him to need more help and discipling than some others. It's not about worse sin...it's just that some of us come to Jesus more scarred by the world and therefore needing more help to learn how to stand.

[Christine]

And this stronghold is more of an issue than say the 'hidden sins' like porn?

My challenge on this logic is that I do not believe that we should judge in degrees based on our own prejudice of "worse" as was originally stated - not that new believers do not need varying levels of counseling.

[Jael]

And this stronghold is more of an issue than say the 'hidden sins' like porn?

My challenge on this logic is that I do not believe that we should judge in degrees based on our own prejudice of "worse" as was originally stated - not that new believers do not need varying levels of counseling.

I guess I just don't see where anyone has judged out of prejudice or called transvetitism "worse"...if a new believer came to Christ and someone in the church was aware that he/she suffered from an addiction to porn, I would expect the church to step in with as much discipling and counselling as was needed. For some it may be porn...for me it was a physical addiction...for the man in the OP, it's transvestitism. This is one of many situations where a believer may need more intense care in the beginning, but I don't see where anyone has said it's the ONLY such situation or that it's any "worse". :confused

[Christine]

So what you are saying is that you agree -- that we should VISIBLY size up new believers based on our own prejudices about them and slot them into 'counselling' programs based on that?

[Jael]

So what you are saying is that you agree -- that we should VISIBLY size up new believers based on our own prejudices about them and slot them into 'counselling' programs based on that?

If a new believer comes to Christ and we can see that he/she is deeply ensnared in one area or another, then yes, I absolutely think the church should gather round to provide all of the support and assistance that person needs to break free. Should we rather ignore it and allow the baby Christian to sink or swim on his/her own? That is not fulfilling the royal law of love (Jam 2:8). I was visibly addicted when I came to Christ, and I am very glad that the seasoned saints "sized me up" and took the initiative to deal with that stronghold. I didn't mention my addiction, but they could see it. There was no point in being PC about it, I was an addict and I needed help. As a baby Christian, there is no way I would have been able to stand without the extra counselling, support, and care that I received...how would it have been more loving for them to ignore my need, which they could see with their own eyes (Jam 2:16)?

Even if the problem is not visible, if the church becomes aware of it, we should bear one another's burdens and help each other to stand. For example, let's say a new believer confesses that he/she has a gambling addiction. That's not a visible problem, but it is a stronghold that can be VERY hard to win free from. I would not expect a church to receive that confession and then send this baby believer home to deal with it on his/her own, with no counselling or help. In the case of the transvetite, the church can see that he has come to Christ with a stronghold that he will need help dealing with. It is a very sensitive area, in which he will need lots of gentle, loving counselling. Unless the Lord miraculously delivers him instantly (which can happen, I know), he will need time and care, probably more care than some other new believers. How would it be showing love to ignore this visible need under the pretext of "not judging"?

[Christine]

I think you are assuming something that I am not saying here.

What I am suggesting is that we do not have 2 plans for new believers -- one where someone is counselled and where another is left to fend for their own way.

I am saying that ALL new believers need to be given the care, attention and mentoring -- not just the ones that someone perceives as being "worse" because of outward impressions.

Example based on this thread. Lets say that this man is celibate. Lets even make him a virgin. He has no interest in porn, but has a thing for dressing in women's clothing. Lets go a step further and assume that of the others who went forward, there are alcoholics, porn addicts, thiefs, those committing adultery outside of their marriage and a few other 'hidden' sins in the mix.

What is being suggested here is that the man with the 'outward sin' should be singled out for "intense" mentoring without regard to the issues that the others may be dealing with.

[Jael]

What I am suggesting is that we do not have 2 plans for new believers -- one where someone is counselled and where another is left to fend for their own way.

I am saying that ALL new believers need to be given the care, attention and mentoring -- not just the ones that someone perceives as being "worse" because of outward impressions.

I agree with you...but where did anyone say otherwise? Saying that one new believer may need MORE care does not imply that others need none. When I came to Christ, my church could see, based on my condition, that I would need a lot of help and counselling...that doesn't mean they ignored other new believers. As those "hidden" issues come to light, they should be dealt with also. Cindy said this man will need intense discipling...she didn't say he was worse than anyone else, or that others would not need discipling as well. From the OP, he was described as a transvestite...it seems clear that (short of miraculous deliverance), he will need a lot of support to break free of this behavior. She might have said the same thing about a drug addict or a porn addict or anyone entangled in bondage of any kind. It's just that this particular post was about a transvestite. I'm trying, but I just don't see why that is offensive. I agree with Cindy that this man (like many new believers) will need extra care and support to deal with this sensitive issue. And I think Cindy would agree with you that ALL new believers need to be mentored and discipled.

[Christine]

I am saying that we should not be picking and choosing which "sins" we feel are the triggers here -- that we need to remember that we are ALL sinners saved by grace and in no position to stand judgment on whose sin is worse than someone elses based on outward vs hidden as the hidden IMO can be (and likely are) the more destructive.

And yes, this WAS suggested (or I wouldn't have even commented on this thread).

[Jael]

I am saying that we should not be picking and choosing which "sins" we feel are the triggers here -- that we need to remember that we are ALL sinners saved by grace and in no position to stand judgment on whose sin is worse than someone elses based on outward vs hidden as the hidden IMO can be (and likely are) the more destructive.

I certainly agree with that...one of the scriptures I tend to quote more often here on RR is:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I am a firm believer that before Christ, we are all equally worthy of death in God's eyes...and after Christ, we are all equally righteous (having been imputed the righteousness of Christ). I think we see it differently because to me, "needs intense discipling" doesn't mean "is a worse sinner". Having come to Christ in deep bondage to my addiction, I remember just how much I needed in order to grow and mature. Yet I was no worse than anyone else...and after I received Him, no less righteous! :clap On a happy note, God is well able to deliver this man from transvestitism. I hope he really is just a transvestite and not surgically altered. Then it will be just a matter of changing his mind and heart, which won't require risky, expensive, and painful surgery.

[Christine]

Jael,

I think we are in agreement on the basics here.

[cindyw]

I am a firm believer that before Christ, we are all equally worthy of death in God's eyes...and after Christ, we are all equally righteous (having been imputed the righteousness of Christ). I think we see it differently because to me, "needs intense discipling" doesn't mean "is a worse sinner". Having come to Christ in deep bondage to my addiction, I remember just how much I needed in order to grow and mature. Yet I was no worse than anyone else...and after I received Him, no less righteous!

:): Thanks for understanding my post how it was intended, Jael.

[arcticgirl]

the change in heart and mind doesn't require the reversal surgery even if he is a post-op transexual. I believe that the surgery would be optional, the person could return to original hormones and deal with the surgical issues if they wanted to, if that becme important to them in their restoration, the castration and what ever other surgical modifications that occurred in the operation do not make a man a woman, they would become simply physical injuries to deal with, either surgically or not.

[SuzyQ]

Christ meets us were we are.

He doesn't stand at the finish line and say,
" I'll meet you here."
Instead, He comes alongside us and says,
" I am with you always. I am with you on the good days.
I am with you on the bad days.
I am with you when you succeed
I am with you when you fail.
I will see you through,
and we will cross the finish line in victory.

Praying for you and believing with you that victory is sure.


what a wonderful card for new Christians, GOD is in control and knows when he calls us, just what we each need. Let go and let GOD, :clap

Sister in Christ
Sue