Calvinism

[chris_h]

I've been doing some research on John MacArthur (am I like the only person on the planet that didn't know he was Calvinist? :wacko), and I was thinking about the T.U.L.I.P. statement of faith for Calvinists, which pretty much defines predestination. More or less the "I" there states that anyone God chooses to be saved will go to heaven, whether they like it or not!

My question then would be, "If that's the case, why are we supposed to evangelize? God's gonna send 'em to heaven anyway, so why bother?" :Tape :hrm

[CamelPower]

All of the Calvinist theologians I know about are also about evangelism. THEY don't know who will be saved, so they witness to all. Cornelius Van Til was as Reformed as they came, and he spent many a noon hour while at Westminster Seminary witnessing to folks in the nearby park.

In eternity, much of TULIP will be manifested, but NOW, while on Earth, our operative orders are Matthew 28: evangelize, teaching, baptism, etc. We will do just so until He returns for us.

[chris_h]

Hmm, that's a good perspective. The way I was reading it, a lot of folks seem to almost imply that if God chose me to go to heaven, and I were to die in his sins, I would go to heaven. :tsk

What do you mean when you say that TULIP will be manifested in eternity?

[Singlesis]

My grandfather (Independant Baptist Preacher) believed in predestination. But he was also one of the greatest witnesses/evangelists I ever knew. Some how some way the two must come together... There is scripture that seems to support predestination. But we are also called to spread the gospel to all, and whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

Maybe it just means that God already knows ahead of time who will and who will not accept Christ. I mean, he knew what Judas would do, and wasn't he chosen for that purpose basically? I don't quite understand it all myself, and enjoy seeing others' posts on the subject.

[chris_h]

Maybe it just means that God already knows ahead of time who will and who will not accept Christ. I mean, he knew what Judas would do, and wasn't he chosen for that purpose basically? I don't quite understand it all myself, and enjoy seeing others' posts on the subject. That's pretty much what I believe. God exists outside of His creation of time; thus, He flips through history like you or I might flip through a history book. He knows who will be saved, but He does not choose who will be saved. There are quite a few verses in the Bible stating that salvation is available for all people, including 2 Peter 3:9.:

The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Whosoever]

He knows who will be saved, but He does not choose who will be saved.Exactly. That is what predestination is. God is omniscient, so He knows in advance who will accept His Son's gift and who won't. The Calvinists I know, however, think it's the other way around--that God personally "appoints" the person rather than the person accepting Yeshua. Leads to some rather :tin and :yell arguments at times.

[Daisy Cutter]

I think free will destroys that argument.

God knows who will be saved, but he can't change it. If you decide that you will not evangelize and someone isnt saved, God knew that would happen, but if you had done it, he also would have known. It's nearly infathomable, but I think that we can choose to go to Heaven

[Jiggy37]

Exactly. That is what predestination is. God is omniscient, so He knows in advance who will accept His Son's gift and who won't.
That's foreknowledge, not predestination...

[cindyw]

That's foreknowledge, not predestination...

:nod

Calvinism basically is the belief that ALL men are bound for eternal destruction. God in His mercy, extends His grace to SOME of those hellbound and gives them the gift of faith. This grace is not extended to all of mankind. This grace is not extended to anyone based upon what they did or did not do. It is a "free" gift, not something given in conjunction with something "we" do, such as "choosing" Jesus. If our "choosing" was something which was/is involved in the attaining of salvation, then we DID do something to get our salvation. Scripture teaches that NO Man can boast in the "gift" of faith through Grace. With us saying "yes", then we certainly could boast over those who have had the gospel presented to them and they said "no".

As has already been said, most Calvinists believe strongly in evangelism. My church's missionary program is phenomenal. Most Calvinists I know believe strongly that it is the preaching of the Gospel which is the vehicle God choses to use to bring the elect into the Body of Christ. The truth is evident that in "hearing" the gospel, not all really "hear", but only some do and respond. As scripture teaches many are called (hear the gospel), few are chosen (given the ability to "hear" by God Himself, thus become saved).........

[sarahbeth]

God knows who will be saved, but he can't change it.


Oh my! That's some god to worship there! :(:

To put the word "can't" behind God anytime is mighty bold....and wrong, imo.

There is nothing that God "can't" do.


friends, Sarah

[Average Joey]

David Livingstone,Martin Luther,and Charles Spurgeon believed in predestination also.

[Average Joey]

Charles Spurgeon.....http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

T IS A GREAT THING to begin the Christian life by believing good solid doctrine. Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other. Constant change of creed is sure loss. If a tree has to be taken up two or three times a year, you will not need to build a very large loft in which to store the apples. When people are always shifting their doctrinal principles, they are not likely to bring forth much fruit to the glory of God. It is good for young believers to begin with a firm hold upon those great fundamental doctrines which the Lord has taught in His Word. Why, if I believed what some preach about the temporary, trumpery salvation which only lasts for a time, I would scarcely be at all grateful for it; but when I know that those whom God saves He saves with an everlasting salvation, when I know that He gives to them an everlasting righteousness, when I know that He settles them on an everlasting foundation of everlasting love, and that He will bring them to His everlasting kingdom, oh, then I do wonder, and I am astonished that such a blessing as this should ever have been given to me!

"Pause, my soul! adore, and wonder!
Ask, 'Oh, why such love to me?'
Grace hath put me in the number
Of the Saviour's family:
Hallelujah!
Thanks, eternal thanks, to Thee!"

I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady—

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;"

and coming to this moment, I can add—

"'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."
I once attended a service where the text happened to be, "He shall choose our inheritance for us;" and the good man who occupied the pulpit was more than a little of an Arminian. Therefore, when he commenced, he said, "This passage refers entirely to our temporal inheritance, it has nothing whatever to do with our everlasting destiny, for," said he, "we do not want Christ to choose for us in the matter of Heaven or hell. It is so plain and easy, that every man who has a grain of common sense will choose Heaven, and any person would know better than to choose hell. We have no need of any superior intelligence, or any greater Being, to choose Heaven or hell for us. It is left to our own free-will, and we have enough wisdom given us, sufficiently correct means to judge for ourselves," and therefore, as he very logically inferred, there was no necessity for Jesus Christ, or anyone, to make a choice for us. We could choose the inheritance for ourselves without any assistance. "Ah!" I thought, "but, my good brother, it may be very true that we could, but I think we should want something more than common sense before we should choose aright."
First, let me ask, must we not all of us admit an over-ruling Providence, and the appointment of Jehovah's hand, as to the means whereby we came into this world? Those men who think that, afterwards, we are left to our own free-will to choose this one or the other to direct our steps, must admit that our entrance into the world was not of our own will, but that God had then to choose for us. What circumstances were those in our power which led us to elect certain persons to be our parents? Had we anything to do with it? Did not God Himself appoint our parents, native place, and friends? Could He not have caused me to be born with the skin of the Hottentot, brought forth by a filthy mother who would nurse me in her "kraal," and teach me to bow down to Pagan gods, quite as easily as to have given me a pious mother, who would each morning and night bend her knee in prayer on my behalf? Or, might He not, if He had pleased, have given me some profligate to have been my parent, from whose lips I might have early heard fearful, filthy, and obscene language? Might He not have placed me where I should have had a drunken father, who would have immured me in a very dungeon of ignorance, and brought me up in the chains of crime? Was it not God's Providence that I had so happy a lot, that both my parents were His children, and endeavoured to train me up in the fear of the Lord?
John Newton used to tell a whimsical story, and laugh at it, too, of a good woman who said, in order to prove the doctrine of election, "Ah! sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards." I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine. I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them. He added that he was sure he would have done so if it had been there, for he read the Word on his knees. I said to him, "I think you read the Bible in a very uncomfortable posture, and if you had read it in your easy chair, you would have been more likely to understand it. Pray, by all means, and the more, the better, but it is a piece of superstition to think there is anything in the posture in which a man puts himself for reading: and as to reading through the Bible twenty times without having found anything about the doctrine of election, the wonder is that you found anything at all: you must have galloped through it at such a rate that you were not likely to have any intelligible idea of the meaning of the Scriptures."
If it would be marvelous to see one river leap up from the earth full-grown, what would it be to gaze upon a vast spring from which all the rivers of the earth should at once come bubbling up, a million of them born at a birth? What a vision would it be! Who can conceive it. And yet the love of God is that fountain, from which all the rivers of mercy, which have ever gladdened our race—all the rivers of grace in time, and of glory hereafter—take their rise. My soul, stand thou at that sacred fountain-head, and adore and magnify, for ever and ever, God, even our Father, who hath loved us! In the very beginning, when this great universe lay in the mind of God, like unborn forests in the acorn cup; long ere the echoes awoke the solitudes; before the mountains were brought forth; and long ere the light flashed through the sky, God loved His chosen creatures. Before there was any created being—when the ether was not fanned by an angel's wing, when space itself had not an existence, when there was nothing save God alone—even then, in that loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and profundity, His bowels moved with love for His chosen. Their names were written on His heart, and then were they dear to His soul. Jesus loved His people before the foundation of the world—even from eternity! and when He called me by His grace, He said to me, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."
Then, in the fulness of time, He purchased me with His blood; He let His heart run out in one deep gaping wound for me long ere I loved Him. Yea, when He first came to me, did I not spurn Him? When He knocked at the door, and asked for entrance, did I not drive Him away, and do despite to His grace? Ah, I can remember that I full often did so until, at last, by the power of His effectual grace, He said, "I must, I will come in;" and then He turned my heart, and made me love Him. But even till now I should have resisted Him, had it not been for His grace. Well, then since He purchased me when I was dead in sins, does it not follow, as a consequence necessary and logical, that He must have loved me first? Did my Saviour die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour, therefore, have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been possible? Could that have been the origin of the Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and, therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit. I have met with a great many believers, and talked with them about this matter; but I never knew one who could put his hand on his heart, and say, "I believed in Jesus without the assistance of the Holy Spirit."
I am bound to the doctrine of the depravity of the human heart, because I find myself depraved in heart, and have daily proofs that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing. If God enters into covenant with unfallen man, man is so insignificant a creature that it must be an act of gracious condescension on the Lord's part; but if God enters into covenant with sinful man, he is then so offensive a creature that it must be, on God's part, an act of pure, free, rich, sovereign grace. When the Lord entered into covenant with me, I am sure that it was all of grace, nothing else but grace. When I remember what a den of unclean beasts and birds my heart was, and how strong was my unrenewed will, how obstinate and rebellious against the sovereignty of the Divine rule, I always feel inclined to take the very lowest room in my Father's house, and when I enter Heaven, it will be to go among the less than the least of all saints, and with the chief of sinners.
The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

"If ever it should come to pass,
That sheep of Christ might fall away,
My fickle, feeble soul, alas!
Would fall a thousand times a day."

If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will love me for ever. God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished. Why should He change? Ye worthless atoms of earth, ephemera of a day, ye creeping insects upon this bay-leaf of existence, ye may change your plans, but He shall never, never change His. Has He told me that His plan is to save me? If so, I am for ever safe.

"My name from the palms of His hands
Eternity will not erase;
Impress'd on His heart it remains,
In marks of indelible grace."

continued..

[Average Joey]

I do not know how some people, who believe that a Christian can fall from grace, manage to be happy. It must be a very commendable thing in them to be able to get through a day without despair. If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort. I could not say, whatever state of heart I came into, that I should be like a well-spring of water, whose stream fails not; I should rather have to take the comparison of an intermittent spring, that might stop on a sudden, or a reservoir, which I had no reason to expect would always be full. I believe that the happiest of Christians and the truest of Christians are those who never dare to doubt God, but who take His Word simply as it stands, and believe it, and ask no questions, just feeling assured that if God has said it, it will be so. I bear my willing testimony that I have no reason, nor even the shadow of a reason, to doubt my Lord, and I challenge Heaven, and earth, and hell, to bring any proof that God is untrue. From the depths of hell I call the fiends, and from this earth I call the tried and afflicted believers, and to Heaven I appeal, and challenge the long experience of the blood-washed host, and there is not to be found in the three realms a single person who can bear witness to one fact which can disprove the faithfulness of God, or weaken His claim to be trusted by His servants. There are many things that may or may not happen, but this I know shall happen—

"He shall present my soul,
Unblemish'd and complete,
Before the glory of His face,
With joys divinely great."

All the purposes of man have been defeated, but not the purposes of God. The promises of man may be broken—many of them are made to be broken—but the promises of God shall all be fulfilled. He is a promise-maker, but He never was a promise-breaker; He is a promise-keeping God, and every one of His people shall prove it to be so. This is my grateful, personal confidence, "The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me"—unworthy me, lost and ruined me. He will yet save me; and—

"I, among the blood-wash'd throng,
Shall wave the palm, and wear the crown,
And shout loud victory."

I go to a land which the plough of earth hath never upturned, where it is greener than earth's best pastures, and richer than her most abundant harvests ever saw. I go to a building of more gorgeous architecture than man hath ever builded; it is not of mortal design; it is "a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens." All I shall know and enjoy in Heaven, will be given to me by the Lord, and I shall say, when at last I appear before Him—

"Grace all the work shall crown
Through everlasting days;
It lays in Heaven the topmost stone,
And well deserves the praise."

I know there are some who think it necessary to their system of theology to limit the merit of the blood of Jesus: if my theological system needed such a limitation, I would cast it to the winds. I cannot, I dare not allow the thought to find a lodging in my mind, it seems so near akin to blasphemy. In Christ's finished work I see an ocean of merit; my plummet finds no bottom, my eye discovers no shore. There must be sufficient efficacy in the blood of Christ, if God had so willed it, to have saved not only all in this world, but all in ten thousand worlds, had they transgressed their Maker's law. Once admit infinity into the matter, and limit is out of the question. Having a Divine Person for an offering, it is not consistent to conceive of limited value; bound and measure are terms inapplicable to the Divine sacrifice. The intent of the Divine purpose fixes the application of the infinite offering, but does not change it into a finite work. Think of the numbers upon whom God has bestowed His grace already. Think of the countless hosts in Heaven: if thou wert introduced there to-day, thou wouldst find it as easy to tell the stars, or the sands of the sea, as to count the multitudes that are before the throne even now. They have come from the East, and from the West, from the North, and from the South, and they are sitting down with Abraham, and with Isaac, and with Jacob in the Kingdom of God; and beside those in Heaven, think of the saved ones on earth. Blessed be God, His elect on earth are to be counted by millions, I believe, and the days are coming, brighter days than these, when there shall be multitudes upon multitudes brought to know the Saviour, and to rejoice in Him. The Father's love is not for a few only, but for an exceeding great company. "A great multitude, which no man could number," will be found in Heaven. A man can reckon up to very high figures; set to work your Newtons, your mightiest calculators, and they can count great numbers, but God and God alone can tell the multitude of His redeemed. I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the pre-eminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the pre-eminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number. I rejoice to know that the souls of all infants, as soon as they die, speed their way to Paradise. Think what a multitude there is of them! Then there are already in Heaven unnumbered myriads of the spirits of just men made perfect—the redeemed of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues up till now; and there are better times coming, when the religion of Christ shall be universal; when—

"He shall reign from pole to pole,
With illimitable sway;"

when whole kingdoms shall bow down before Him, and nations shall be born in a day, and in the thousand years of the great millennial state there will be enough saved to make up all the deficiencies of the thousands of years that have gone before. Christ shall be Master everywhere, and His praise shall be sounded in every land. Christ shall have the pre-eminence at last; His train shall be far larger than that which shall attend the chariot of the grim monarch of hell.

Some persons love the doctrine of universal atonement because they say, "It is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that Christ should have died for all men; it commends itself," they say, "to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty." I admit there is, but beauty may be often associated with falsehood. There is much which I might admire in the theory of universal redemption, but I will just show what the supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one "of whom the world was not worthy." I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven.
I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
It is often said that the doctrines we believe have a tendency to lead us to sin. I have heard it asserted most positively, that those high doctrines which we love, and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones. I do not know who will have the hardihood to make that assertion, when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as the orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles. It is that vein of free-grace, running through the sermonizing of Baptists, which has saved us as a denomination. Were it not for that, we should not stand where we are today. We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can ask concerning them, "Where will you find holier and better men in the world?" No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it "a licentious doctrine" did not know anything at all about it. Poor ignorant things, they little knew that their own vile stuff was the most licentious doctrine under Heaven. If they knew the grace of God in truth, they would soon see that there was no preservative from lying like a knowledge that we are elect of God from the foundation of the world. There is nothing like a belief in my eternal perseverance, and the immutability of my Father's affection, which can keep me near to Him from a motive of simple gratitude. Nothing makes a man so virtuous as belief of the truth. A lying doctrine will soon beget a lying practice. A man cannot have an erroneous belief without by-and-by having an erroneous life. I believe the one thing naturally begets the other. Of all men, those have the most disinterested piety, the sublimest reverence, the most ardent devotion, who believe that they are saved by grace, without works, through faith, and that not of themselves, it is the gift of God. Christians should take heed, and see that it always is so, lest by any means Christ should be crucified afresh, and put to an open shame.

[Singlesis]

Average Joey, thank you for that post from Charles Spurgeon. It's a long read, but clearly identifies and defines the belief of presdestination/Calvinism.

[Samer]

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:3-4)

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Matthew 23:37)

[bourne]

I do not know how some people, who believe that a Christian can fall from grace, manage to be happy. It must be a very commendable thing in them to be able to get through a day without despair.
Hello :):
I dont agree with any of the points of Calvanism (i take the Arminian postition), and would just like to point out one thing that many people misunderstand.

Most (if not all) people who dont believe in Calvanisms Perserverance of the Saints, do not believe we loose our salvation by sinning.
Calvanists usually believe that IF "the perserverance of the saints" is dependent on our actions then that translates to salvation by works.

In Arminianism all thats required to recieve salvaytion is to believe the gospel.
Continuing to believe the gospel is all thats required for continuing salvation, NOT works or holy living.

If a Christian falls into unbeleief then he/she will be seperated from fellowship with God and His salvation.

[sarahbeth]

Who are the elect?

http://www.endtimeinfo.net/Rapture/elect.php

[cindyw]

link doesn't work Sarah.

[joy4Him2day]

:nod

Calvinism basically is the belief that ALL men are bound for eternal destruction. God in His mercy, extends His grace to SOME of those hellbound and gives them the gift of faith. This grace is not extended to all of mankind. This grace is not extended to anyone based upon what they did or did not do. It is a "free" gift, not something given in conjunction with something "we" do, such as "choosing" Jesus. If our "choosing" was something which was/is involved in the attaining of salvation, then we DID do something to get our salvation. Scripture teaches that NO Man can boast in the "gift" of faith through Grace. With us saying "yes", then we certainly could boast over those who have had the gospel presented to them and they said "no".

As has already been said, most Calvinists believe strongly in evangelism. My church's missionary program is phenomenal. Most Calvinists I know believe strongly that it is the preaching of the Gospel which is the vehicle God choses to use to bring the elect into the Body of Christ. The truth is evident that in "hearing" the gospel, not all really "hear", but only some do and respond. As scripture teaches many are called (hear the gospel), few are chosen (given the ability to "hear" by God Himself, thus become saved).........


that theory makes God a respector of persons. I don't buy it. All are called. All can accept or reject. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God's free gift and Jesus payment for our sin......if we have no choice, then, we can blame God for creating us without a choice......that is not what He teaches about love......

[blitzkreig]

Hello :):
I dont agree with any of the points of Calvanism (i take the Arminian postition)Have you actually read Joseph Arminius?

I hope you know that he clearly believed in predestination ... :doh

He is a pretty fair author and has a lot to say... dig in...

THE WORKS OF JAMES ARMINIUS (http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm)

You might be interested in this...

Title: The Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1
Creator(s): Arminius, James (1560-1609)
Rights: Public Domain
CCEL Subjects: All; Theology;
LC Call no: BX6195 .A65 1956
LC Subjects:

Christian Denominations

Protestantism

Post-Reformation

Other Protestant denominations

Arminians. Remonstrants
_________________________________________________________________

The Works Of James Arminius (volume I page 143)



5. MY OWN SENTIMENTS ON PREDESTINATION.
_________________________________________________________________

I have hitherto been stating those opinions concerning the article of
Predestination which are inculcated in our Churches and in the
University of Leyden, and of which I disapprove. I have at the same
time produced my own reasons, why I form such an unfavourable judgment
concerning them; and I will now declare my own opinions on this
subject, which are of such a description as, according to my views,
appear most conformable to the word of God.

I. The first absolute decree of God concerning the salvation of sinful
man, is that by which he decreed to appoint his Son, Jesus Christ, for
a Mediator, Redeemer, saviour, Priest and King, who might destroy sin
by his own death, might by his obedience obtain the salvation which
had been lost, and might communicate it by his own virtue.

II. The second precise and absolute decree of God, is that in which he
decreed to receive into favour those who repent and believe, and, in
Christ, for his sake and through Him, to effect the salvation of such
penitents and believers as persevered to the end; but to leave in sin,
and under wrath, all impenitent persons and unbelievers, and to damn
them as aliens from Christ.

III. The third Divine decree is that by which God decreed to
administer in a sufficient and efficacious manner the means which were
necessary for repentance and faith; and to have such administration
instituted (1.) according to the Divine Wisdom, by which God knows
what is proper and becoming both to his mercy and his severity, and
(2.) according to Divine Justice, by which He is prepared to adopt
whatever his wisdom may prescribe and put it in execution.

IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save
and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in
the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those
individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and,
through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before
described administration of those means which are suitable and proper
for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise
knew those who would not believe and persevere.

Predestination, when thus explained, is

1. The foundation of Christianity, and of salvation and its certainty.

2. It is the sum and the matter of the gospel; nay, it is the gospel
itself, and on that account necessary to be believed in order to
salvation, as far as the two first articles are concerned.

3. It has had no need of being examined or determined by any council,
either general or particular, since it is contained in the scriptures
clearly and expressly in so many words; and no contradiction has ever
yet been offered to it by any orthodox Divine.

4. It has constantly been acknowledged and taught by all Christian
teachers who held correct and orthodox sentiments.

5. It agrees with that harmony of all confessions, which has been
published by the protestant Churches.

6. It likewise agrees most excellently with the Dutch Confession and
Catechism. This concord is such, that if in the Sixteenth article
these two expressions "those persons whom" and "others," be explained
by the words "believers" and "unbelievers" these opinions of mine on
Predestination will be comprehended in that article with the greatest
clearness. This is the reason why I directed the thesis to be composed
in the very words of the Confession, when, on one occasion, I had to
hold a public disputation before my private class in the University.
This kind of Predestination also agrees with the reasoning contained
in the twentieth and the fifty-fourth question of the Catechism.

7. It is also in excellent accordance with the nature of God with his
wisdom, goodness, and righteousness; because it contains the principal
matter of all of them, and is the clearest demonstration of the Divine
wisdom, goodness, and righteousness [or justice]

8. It is agreeable in every point with the nature of man--in what form
soever that nature may be contemplated, whether in the primitive state
of creation, in that of the fall, or in that of restoration.

9. It is in complete concert with the act of creation, by affirming
that the creation itself is a real communication of good, both from
the intention of God, and with regard to the very end or event; that
it had its origin in the goodness of God; that whatever has a
reference to its continuance and preservation, proceeds from Divine
love; and that this act of creation is a perfect and appropriate work
of God, in which he is at complaisance with himself, and by which he
obtained all things necessary for an unsinning state.

10. It agrees with the nature of life eternal, and with the honourable
titles by which that life is designated in the scriptures.

11. It also agrees with the nature of death eternal, and with the
names by which that death is distinguished in scripture.

12. It states sin to be a real disobedience, and the meritorious cause
of condemnation; and on this account, it is in the most perfect
agreement with the fall and with sin.

13. In every particular, it harmonizes with the nature of grace, by
ascribing to it all those things which agree with it, [or adapted to
it,] and by reconciling it most completely to the righteousness of God
and to the nature and liberty of the human will.

14. It conduces most conspicuously to declare the glory of God, his
justice and his mercy. It also represents God as the cause of all good
and of our salvation, and man as the cause of sin and of his own
damnation.

15. It contributes to the honour of Jesus Christ, by placing him for
the foundation of Predestination and the meritorious as well as
communicative cause of salvation.

16. It greatly promotes the salvation of men: It is also the power,
and the very means which lead to salvation--by exciting and creating
within the mind of man sorrow on account of sin, a solicitude about
his conversion, faith in Jesus Christ, a studious desire to perform
good works, and zeal in prayer--and by causing men to work out their
salvation with fear and trembling. It likewise prevents despair, as
far as such prevention is necessary.

17. It confirms and establishes that order according to which the
gospel ought to be preached, (1.) By requiring repentance and faith --
(2.) And then by promising remission of sins, the grace of the spirit,
and life eternal.

18. It strengthens the ministry of the gospel, and renders it
profitable with respect to preaching, the administration of the
sacraments and public prayers.

19. It is the foundation of the Christian religion; because in it, the
two-fold love of God may be united together--

God's love of righteousness [or justice], and his love of men, may,
with the greatest consistency, be reconciled to each other.

20. Lastly. This doctrine of Predestination, has always been approved
by the great majority of professing Christians, and even now, in these
days, it enjoys the same extensive patronage. It cannot afford any
person just cause for expressing his aversion to it; nor can it give
any pretext for contention in the Christian Church.

It is therefore much to be desired, that men would proceed no further
in this matter, and would not attempt to investigate the unsearchable
judgments of God--at least that they would not proceed beyond the
point at which those judgments have been clearly revealed in the
scriptures.

This, my most potent Lords, is all that I intend now to declare to
your mightinesses, respecting the doctrine of Predestination, about
which there exists such a great controversy in the Church of Christ.
If it would not prove too tedious to your Lordships, I have some other
propositions which I could wish to state, because they contribute to a
full declaration of my sentiments, and tend to the same purpose as
that for which I have been ordered to attend in this place by your
mightinesses.

[sarahbeth]

That really surprises me about what Joseph Arminius believed! Did not know that.


friends, Sarah

[cindyw]

that theory makes God a respector of persons. I don't buy it. All are called. All can accept or reject. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God's free gift and Jesus payment for our sin......if we have no choice, then, we can blame God for creating us without a choice......that is not what He teaches about love......


Then you believe it is in the power of man to save himself? This is exactly what Roman Catholics believe-----they, in conjunction with God, ensure their salvation. IMHO, with this belief comes "boasting".............ie; "I heard the gospel and accepted Jesus in my heart, but Joe Smoe who also heard, rejected the Gospel".............We need to ask ourselves this: Who Gives the power to receive the Truth? Is it us who decides WHEN the lights will come on, so to speak, or is it according to the Father's timing? Does scripture teach that ALL people will be able to receive Truth, thus decide whether to accept it or not? Rom. 9 seems to discount that belief. Jesus taught whom the Father GAVE (past tense) to Him, would come to Him.......when the Father drew that person(Jn. 6:39-44). We have to remember, scripture not only teaches that MANY are called, it also teaches that FEW are chosen...........not few CHOOSE, but few ARE CHOSEN. Jesus taught that HE chose us, we did not choose Him.

[blitzkreig]

that theory makes God a respector of persons. I don't buy it. All are called. All can accept or reject. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God's free gift and Jesus payment for our sin......2 Tim. 1:9. "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Gal. 1:15. "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace. To reveal his Son in me . . ."

2 Thes. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ..."

Eph. 1:4. "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world


iif we have no choice, then, we can blame God for creating us without a choice......that is not what He teaches about love......

Rom 9:18-21
(18) Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.
(19) You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
(20) No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
(21) Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?


.

[joy4Him2day]

2 Tim. 1:9. "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Gal. 1:15. "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace. To reveal his Son in me . . ."

2 Thes. 2:13. "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ..."

Eph. 1:4. "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world





Rom 9:18-21
(18) Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.
(19) You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
(20) No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
(21) Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?


.

I see no limitations in the above verses......I see no reason to accept that not all are called......
I think we have equal arguements........I can see both justifications for our beliefs.......
I call it even in quoting scripture to uphold our(each of us) tradition....

However,

It doesn't make sense that God calls us to unconditional love, excluding no one, for any reason, and yet, He would chose to save that privilege for Himself........it doesn't fit the whole...and makes for prejudices for human hearts........

when you don't have free will, you are a slave
the difference between serving God is that you are chosing to do so even though you need His help to do it...

and serving satan is that he literally has you in bondage until Jesus sets you free.......and most people in that bondage, don't even know it, until Jesus presents truth to them in the various means that He does that......

while your arguement against free will is that "we might boast"
my arguement against His chosing without our agreeing "might make us elitist" , so we have the same fear........interesting.........

although I am thankful He has chosen to give me "sight", I cannot ever think I am "special" because I have nothing over the next person.......and only the desire that they gain "sight" also.....

I don't know, Cindy......maybe I am reacting from my own fear, but so far, what I understand about the character of God, (however faulty that may be), it doesn't fit........

I will remain open to Him changing my thinking, but right now, this is where I am. I am sorry if I sound attacking.........I do get upset about it........:sigh

[bourne]

Have you actually read Joseph Arminius?
.
saying im an Arminiist doesnt mean I have to agree with everything he wrote, just as saying your a Calvinist doesnt mean you agree with everything Calvin wrote.

As an Arminiist I agree with the Five Arminian Articles of Remonstrance

I.That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture.
II.That, accordingly, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that He has obtained for all, by His death on the cross, reconciliation and remission of sins; yet so that no one is partaker of this remission except the believers [John 3:16; 1 John 2:2].

III.That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good — nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God [John 15:5].

IV.That this grace of God is the beginning, the progress and the end of all good; so that even the regenerate man can neither think, will nor effect any good, nor withstand any temptation to evil, without grace precedent (or prevenient), awakening, following and co-operating. So that all good deeds and all movements towards good that can be conceived in through must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of operation, grace is not irresistible; for it is written of many that they resisted the Holy Spirit [Acts 7 and elsewhere passim].

V.That those who are grafted into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby been made partakers of His life-giving Spirit, are abundantly endowed with power to strive against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to win the victory; always, be it understood, with the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit, with Jesus Christ assisting them in all temptations, through His Spirit; stretching out His hand to them and (providing only that they are themselves prepared for the fight, that they entreat His aid and do not fail to help themselves) propping and upbuilding them so that by no guile or violence of Satan can they be led astray or plucked from Christ's hands [John 10:28]. But for the question whether they are not able through sloth or negligence to forsake the beginning of their life in Christ, to embrace again this present world, to depart from the holy doctrine once delivered to them, to lose their good conscience and to neglect grace--this must be the subject of more exact inquiry in the Holy Scriptures, before we can teach it with full confidence of our mind.

[cindyw]

Don't worry Joy, I didn't think you were attacking. I didn't use to hold to election/predestination before either, so I know where you're coming from.
As to the "special" thinking, personally I see it quite opposite of that. My viewpoint is that I did NOTHING to warrant my salvation, therefore my thankfulness about receiving it is BIG. I cannot brag that I had any part whatsoever----even "accepting", while others reject---which truly does lead to boasting. I've seen it many times. To me, Calvinism gives God ALL the Glory and we take none. We realize that we all were destined to the Lake of Fire, but through God's mercy and Grace, we (the elect)were plucked from eternal destruction. God did this "plucking" without regard to character, personalities, good/bad deeds, etc. He did this by opening our eyes to "see" the Truth.

You said this: "serving satan is that he literally has you in bondage until Jesus sets you free.......and most people in that bondage, don't even know it, until Jesus presents truth to them in the various means that He does that"

I agree with this statement. However, I think the way we may look at it is very different. First, the only way one can be set free is by hearing the Gospel. The next part is that God, through His Grace, opens the hearers ears and eyes so they can "hear" the Truth, and they "see" their sin-----how He accomplishes this is through the rebirth. In our "dead" state scripture says the cross is foolishness. Scripture also teaches that we cannot receive things of the Spirit in our dead state. In order to receive those things, God has to "quicken" us first and HE grants us repentance----GODLY sorrow is not something a "dead" person can muster up. They have to be made alive first in order to see as God sees (II Cor. 4:3-6, I Cor. 1:2:9-16). Read also: I Cor. 18-31. Note that not all who have the gospel preached to them can "see".........only the "elect" can see-----verses 24-26. That again takes us back to Rom. 9:18-23, a passage which shows that man does not have the ability to freely choose or reject salvation-----that is entirely in the hands of the "potter".............

[matheteou]

Don't worry Joy, I didn't think you were attacking. I didn't use to hold to election/predestination before either, so I know where you're coming from.
As to the "special" thinking, personally I see it quite opposite of that. My viewpoint is that I did NOTHING to warrant my salvation, therefore my thankfulness about receiving it is BIG. I cannot brag that I had any part whatsoever----even "accepting", while others reject---which truly does lead to boasting. I've seen it many times. To me, Calvinism gives God ALL the Glory and we take none. We realize that we all were destined to the Lake of Fire, but through God's mercy and Grace, we (the elect)were plucked from eternal destruction. God did this "plucking" without regard to character, personalities, good/bad deeds, etc. He did this by opening our eyes to "see" the Truth.

You said this: "serving satan is that he literally has you in bondage until Jesus sets you free.......and most people in that bondage, don't even know it, until Jesus presents truth to them in the various means that He does that"

I agree with this statement. However, I think the way we may look at it is very different. First, the only way one can be set free is by hearing the Gospel. The next part is that God, through His Grace, opens the hearers ears and eyes so they can "hear" the Truth, and they "see" their sin-----how He accomplishes this is through the rebirth. In our "dead" state scripture says the cross is foolishness. Scripture also teaches that we cannot receive things of the Spirit in our dead state. In order to receive those things, God has to "quicken" us first and HE grants us repentance----GODLY sorrow is not something a "dead" person can muster up. They have to be made alive first in order to see as God sees (II Cor. 4:3-6, I Cor. 1:2:9-16). Read also: I Cor. 18-31. Note that not all who have the gospel preached to them can "see".........only the "elect" can see-----verses 24-26. That again takes us back to Rom. 9:18-23, a passage which shows that man does not have the ability to freely choose or reject salvation-----that is entirely in the hands of the "potter".............I have had calvinistic leanings for quite some time, but I have really had a struggle with which occurs first, regeneration or belief. Now I cannot put up a big defense at the moment nor will I try, but I did reach a conclusion from a different "angle" and that was understanding "Irresistable Grace", the "I" of TULIP. It came from one little verse for me, Acts 16:14 and Lydia's case, "... the Lord opened her mind ..." That led to a search which ended here:
27.49 διανοίγω τὸν νοῦν; διανοίγω τὴν καρδίαν: (idioms, literally ‘to open the mind’ and ‘to open the heart’) to cause someone to be willing to learn and evaluate fairly—‘to open someone’s mind, to cause someone to be open-minded.’διανοίγω τὸν νοῦν: τότε διήνοιξεν αὐτῶν τὸν νοῦν τοῦ συνιέναι τὰς γραφάς ‘then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures’ Lk 24.45.

διανοίγω τὴν καρδίαν: ἧς ὁ κύριος διήνοιξεν τὴν καρδίαν προσέχειν τοῖς λαλουμένοις ὑπὸ τοῦ Παύλου ‘the Lord opened her mind to pay attention to what Paul was saying’ Ac 16.14.

It is rare that one can speak literally of ‘opening the mind’ or ‘opening the heart.’ It is sometimes possible to use an expression such as ‘to cause the mind to see’ or ‘to cause the heart to know’ or ‘ … to recognize.’ In some languages, however, ‘to open the mind’ or ‘to open the heart’ may refer to murderous violence.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996, c1989). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (Vol. 1, Page 331). New York: United Bible societies.Now I know this doesn't say anything about 'regeneration' or belief, but don't you see (and cindy this is NOT directed at you, I'm just using your post as a springboard), it's not us, it's the Lord who does the work. Before salvation we are third-rate creatures (in power) enslaved to a second-rate creature (satan, and he was top dog in the creature arena), who is subject to the omnipotent God. Who are we to think we have the power (it's volition folks, not free-will) to resist the omnipotent God when we can't escape a second-rate critter like satan without help?

[B A N E]

(it's volition folks, not free-will)

And there lies a huge chunk of the answer to the dilemma and why I am a
stickler about it.

[cindyw]

it's not us, it's the Lord who does the work. Before salvation we are third-rate creatures (in power) enslaved to a second-rate creature (satan, and he was top dog in the creature arena), who is subject to the omnipotent God. Who are we to think we have the power (it's volition folks, not free-will) to resist the omnipotent God when we can't escape a second-rate critter like satan without help?

:thumb

Yes, for me, understanding which comes first in the salvation process is a very difficult thing. What we are told is that the "natural" man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, so in some way there needs to have happen "something" which enables "the elect" to understand, hear, see. In Lydia's case, we do not know if the "opening" is a result of spiritual awakening(rebirth), or a "one time" event in which she can then "choose" to accept or reject it. Scripture, at least to me, seems to indicate that it is not a one time choice afforded to ALL people, but a quickening (being made alive) which occurs.

[blitzkreig]

saying im an Arminiist doesnt mean I have to agree with everything he wrote, just as saying your a Calvinist doesnt mean you agree with everything Calvin wrote.

As an Arminiist I agree with the Five Arminian Articles of Remonstrance


Five Arminian Articles of Remonstrance


Quote:
I.That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture.
II.That, accordingly, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that He has obtained for all, by His death on the cross, reconciliation and remission of sins; yet so that no one is partaker of this remission except the believers [John 3:16; 1 John 2:2].

III.That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good — nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God [John 15:5].

IV.That this grace of God is the beginning, the progress and the end of all good; so that even the regenerate man can neither think, will nor effect any good, nor withstand any temptation to evil, without grace precedent (or prevenient), awakening, following and co-operating. So that all good deeds and all movements towards good that can be conceived in through must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of operation, grace is not irresistible; for it is written of many that they resisted the Holy Spirit [Acts 7 and elsewhere passim].

V.That those who are grafted into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby been made partakers of His life-giving Spirit, are abundantly endowed with power to strive against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to win the victory; always, be it understood, with the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit, with Jesus Christ assisting them in all temptations, through His Spirit; stretching out His hand to them and (providing only that they are themselves prepared for the fight, that they entreat His aid and do not fail to help themselves) propping and upbuilding them so that by no guile or violence of Satan can they be led astray or plucked from Christ's hands [John 10:28]. But for the question whether they are not able through sloth or negligence to forsake the beginning of their life in Christ, to embrace again this present world, to depart from the holy doctrine once delivered to them, to lose their good conscience and to neglect grace--this must be the subject of more exact inquiry in the Holy Scriptures, before we can teach it with full confidence of our mind. The five articles are consistent with what I had posted which came from his defence. But you seem to understand that Arminius and Calvin were not that far apart on their understanding of Predestination... relative to today's version of "Modern Theosophy" so many Churches hold to...

I find many folks who think they are Arminian would ascribe the "Arminian Articles of Remonstrance" to John Calvian :rofl

I find most folks actually believe the following "freewill version" of "Sovereign Man":

They hold that God has not by predestination dispensed his grace to one more than another; that Christ died to all men; that the grace purchased by Christ and necessary to salvation, is offered to all men; that man, before he receives grace, is capable of faith and holy desires; and that man being born free, is capable of accepting grace, or of resisting its influences.Webster Dictionary --- Semi-Pelagian (http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_d:/inetpub/wwwroot/cgi-bin/webster/web1828=semi-pelagian)

[cindyw]

I find most folks actually believe the following "freewill version" of "Sovereign Man":

They hold that God has not by predestination dispensed his grace to one more than another; that Christ died to all men; that the grace purchased by Christ and necessary to salvation, is offered to all men; that man, before he receives grace, is capable of faith and holy desires; and that man being born free, is capable of accepting grace, or of resisting its influences.Webster Dictionary --- Semi-Pelagian

:nod