Repentence...what is it exactly?

[John 3:16]

Is it just simply a confession to God and a turning away from that sin or path you were on or does it involve restitution? Do you think that if "God forgives you" after you confess and repent that there is no reason to seek forgiveness or apologize to the wronged party or parties? :confused

What if someone ASKS for an apology...are you obliged to give one? What if they DON'T ask for one...are you STILL obliged?

[John 3:16]

I'm looking for more day to day situations/circumstances. If I KNOW or become aware that someone was hurt by something I did that was wrong (and I know it was wrong)..what do I owe that person?







(Removed controversial topics as examples)

[IbeleiveinJesus]

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, all the prodigal needed to do was show up at his fathers gate, and his father ran to him, and threw his arms around him..

I think things like restitution may logically follow repentance.. but in the eyes of G-d, I really think all we have to do is come home to be forgiven...

-Ted

[IbeleiveinJesus]

If I KNOW or become aware that someone was hurt by something I did that was wrong (and I know it was wrong)..what do I owe that person?

It depends on what you did.. I think in general an apology suffices... if you caused that person to be out money or something, perhaps some other restitution is appropriate... I think we should be just... If I break a neighbors window, I should not only apologize, I should offer to pay for the repair... but there is a level of reasonableness here....

-Ted

[antsinmypants]

Slavery reparations?

No. Only those who inflicted slavery can answer for their actions and pay for their crimes.


Swiftboat Vets asked for a Kerry apology?

Easily done if one has their heart in it and really is apologetic for the lies about saying they wished they weren't in the military yada yada yada.


A Kerry apology to vietnam vets?

It is in order... that's about all I can say...



If I KNOW or become aware that someone was hurt by something I did that was wrong (and I know it was wrong)..what do I owe that person?

We're told in the bible if we have something wrong between us and a brother to take it to them and seek for the problem to be resolved or YHVH won't hear our prayers.

(can't remember where the verse is and I know that was badddddddly paraphrased).

-ants

[John 3:16]

Oh no! Don't make it a slavery reparations issue or Swiftboat issue. I really, really wanted to apply it to everyday, real life issues.

But thank you for answering!

[antsinmypants]

Oh no! Don't make it a slavery reparations issue or Swiftboat issue. I really, really wanted to apply it to everyday, real life issues.

But thank you for answering!

I wasn't trying to, but using the examples ;):

[antsinmypants]

I think the dictionary describes it well.. but that's just me and the way I think.

Let's see:


Main Entry: 1re·pent
Pronunciation: ri-'pent
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French repentir, from re- + pentir to be sorry, from Latin paenitEre -- more at PENITENT
intransitive senses
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive senses
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
- re·pent·er noun


Main Entry: re·pen·tance
Pronunciation: ri-'pen-t&n(t)s
Function: noun
: the action or process of repenting especially for misdeeds or moral shortcomings
synonym see PENITENCE

Main Entry: 1pen·i·tent
Pronunciation: -t&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin paenitent-, paenitens, from present participle of paenitEre to cause regret, feel regret, perhaps from paene almost
: feeling or expressing humble or regretful pain or sorrow for sins or offenses : REPENTANT
- pen·i·tent·ly adverb

www.m-w.com



(follows the biblical example as well)

Repenting is turning from one deed, making amends and doing what one can to live right afterwards.

[John 3:16]

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, all the prodigal needed to do was show up at his fathers gate, and his father ran to him, and threw his arms around him..

I think things like restitution may logically follow repentance.. but in the eyes of G-d, I really think all we have to do is come home to be forgiven...

-Ted

I'm not sure we can really use that as a guide because the prodigal son's father was THE Father in the story...not just another person whom he had wronged. :confused

[John 3:16]

feeling or expressing humble or regretful pain or sorrow for sins or offenses

Well there it is then. If we are to express sorrow for offenses...then if we were aware of our offense and we knew someone was in pain over our offense and maybe had even requested an apology....then we would offer it, right? That sounds right to me. :nod

[John 3:16]

Ok, another question. If someone asks for an apology and you give them one (which is admitting your offense), what if they want to seek damages from you then? Unless you just make some sort of general apology like, "I am sorry you were hurt" instead of "I'm sorry I hurt you" or "I'm sorry my actions/inactions hurt you".

I just think the world would be a much nicer place if people (christians in particular) would admit their errors. I think it helps people to forgive an offense. :nod I know that sounds pretty naive. :B:

I remember having this discussion with someone who said if he confessed and apologized to God...it was forgiven and that was the only one he need concern himself with. :freaked

[John 3:16]

I wasn't trying to, but using the examples ;):

I'll take them out. :twitch I agree with you though.

[antsinmypants]

Ok, another question. If someone asks for an apology and you give them one (which is admitting your offense), what if they want to seek damages from you then? Unless you just make some sort of general apology like, "I am sorry you were hurt" instead of "I'm sorry I hurt you" or "I'm sorry my actions/inactions hurt you".

Well, we can take my car accident as a reminder of this kind of thing.
The lady who hit my car not only totalled it, but caused emotional and physical damage to me, and it also caused me to miss work hours, and give less quality work- not to mention raised expenses (new car, higher car insurance -- doctor's visits...).

According to the whole of the bible, she injured me and also did damage to my property, which means I am entitled to an apology and that she is supposed to make restitution of those damages, and do what she can to help out. (not only that, our US Constitutional laws also agree with that)


Sure, I can forgive her.. that's not a problem.

The problem are the damages which as of yet there are no restitution of.
(my lawyer can't even get a hold of her or her husband)

Yes, G-d knows, and G-d will restore.. and I can wait for that.. no worries.

I just really wish we could find a way to put it behind us at this point, REALLY I DO!! (3 months is a long time to get over anger :nod )

[Bondservant]

"Repentance is a grace of God's Spirit whereby a sinner is inwardly humbled and visibly reformed."

THOMAS WATSON

"It is one thing to have sin alarmed only by convictions, and another to have it crucified by converting grace. Many, because they have been troubled in conscience for their sins, think well of their case, miserably mistaking conviction for conversion."

JOSEPH ALLIENE

"Tell me, you vain professor, when did you shed a tear for the deadness, hardness, unbelief, or earthliness of your heart? Do you think that such an easy religion can save you? If so, we may invert Christ's words and say, 'Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to life, and may there be that go in there.'"

JOHN FLAVEL

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God, leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Knowledge without repentance will be but a torch to light men to hell."

THOMAS WATSON

"Question: How shall we know that we love the reproofs of the Word?
Answer 1: When we desire to sit under a heart-searching ministry. Who cares for medicines that will not work? A godly man does not choose to sit under a ministry that will not work upon his conscience.
Answer 2: When we pray that the Word may meet with our sins. If there is any traitorous lust in our heart, we would have it found out and executed. We do not want sin covered, but cured. We can open our breast to the bullet of the Word and say, 'Lord, smite this sin.'"

THOMAS WATSON
"I am tempted to think that I am now an established Christian,--that I have overcome this or that lust so long,--that I have got into the habit of the opposite grace,--so that there is no fear; I may venture very near the temptation--nearer than other men. This is a lie of Satan. One might as well speak of gunpowder getting by habit of resisting fire, so as not to catch spark. As long as powder is wet, it resists the spark; but when it becomes dry, it is ready to explode at the first touch. As long as the Spirit dwells in my heart, He deadens me to sin, so that, if lawfully called through temptation, I may reckon upon God carrying me through. But when the Spirit leaves me, I am like dry gunpowder. Oh for a sense of this!"

ROBERT M M'CHEYNE

[John 3:16]

[QUOTE=Bondservant]"Repentance is a grace of God's Spirit whereby a sinner is inwardly humbled and visibly reformed."

THOMAS WATSON

"It is one thing to have sin alarmed only by convictions, and another to have it crucified by converting grace. Many, because they have been troubled in conscience for their sins, think well of their case, miserably mistaking conviction for conversion."

JOSEPH ALLIENE

"Tell me, you vain professor, when did you shed a tear for the deadness, hardness, unbelief, or earthliness of your heart? Do you think that such an easy religion can save you? If so, we may invert Christ's words and say, 'Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to life, and may there be that go in there.'"

JOHN FLAVEL

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God, leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Knowledge without repentance will be but a torch to light men to hell."

THOMAS WATSON

"Question: How shall we know that we love the reproofs of the Word?
Answer 1: When we desire to sit under a heart-searching ministry. Who cares for medicines that will not work? A godly man does not choose to sit under a ministry that will not work upon his conscience.
Answer 2: When we pray that the Word may meet with our sins. If there is any traitorous lust in our heart, we would have it found out and executed. We do not want sin covered, but cured. We can open our breast to the bullet of the Word and say, 'Lord, smite this sin.'"

THOMAS WATSON
"I am tempted to think that I am now an established Christian,--that I have overcome this or that lust so long,--that I have got into the habit of the opposite grace,--so that there is no fear; I may venture very near the temptation--nearer than other men. This is a lie of Satan. One might as well speak of gunpowder getting by habit of resisting fire, so as not to catch spark. As long as powder is wet, it resists the spark; but when it becomes dry, it is ready to explode at the first touch. As long as the Spirit dwells in my heart, He deadens me to sin, so that, if lawfully called through temptation, I may reckon upon God carrying me through. But when the Spirit leaves me, I am like dry gunpowder. Oh for a sense of this!"




Ants- ya gotta like these quotes! I do! :nod

[John 3:16]

Well, we can take my car accident as a reminder of this kind of thing.
The lady who hit my car not only totalled it, but caused emotional and physical damage to me, and it also caused me to miss work hours, and give less quality work- not to mention raised expenses (new car, higher car insurance -- doctor's visits...).

According to the whole of the bible, she injured me and also did damage to my property, which means I am entitled to an apology and that she is supposed to make restitution of those damages, and do what she can to help out. (not only that, our US Constitutional laws also agree with that)


Sure, I can forgive her.. that's not a problem.

The problem are the damages which as of yet there are no restitution of.
(my lawyer can't even get a hold of her or her husband)

Yes, G-d knows, and G-d will restore.. and I can wait for that.. no worries.

I just really wish we could find a way to put it behind us at this point, REALLY I DO!! (3 months is a long time to get over anger :nod )

I don't know about you...I may just be really silly...but it hurts me MORE when people don't acknowledge their hurtful actions than the actual damages itself. :confused

On a side note...didn't she have car insurance? From experience...the car insurance co. won't settle a claim until all physical injuries are resolved so there won't be anyone seeking recourse for them later. Ins. is notoriously slow at settling claims and usually a lawyer for the victim side is needed. Hey, everyone needs their share of the settlement. :rolleyes

[frisian1970]

Brethren, it is easier to declaim against a thousand sins of others, than to mortify one sin in ourselves"
Author: John Flavel

[blitzkreig]

Many people confuse the term "repentance" with "confession". They are quite different.

From the (ISBE) International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Repentance

rḗ-pen´tans:
I. OLD TESTAMENT TERMS
1. To Repent - “to Pant,” “to Sigh”
2. To Repent - “to Turn” or “Return”
II. NEW TESTAMENT TERMS
1. Repent - “to Care,” “Be Concerned”
2. Repent - “to Change the Mind”
3. Repent - “to Turn Over,” “to Turn Upon,” “to Turn Unto”
III. THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ELEMENTS
1. The Intellectual Element
2. The Emotional Element
3. The Volitional Element
LITERATURE
To get an accurate idea of the precise New Testament meaning of this highly important word it is necessary to consider its approximate synonyms in the original Hebrew and Greek The psychological elements of repentance should be considered in the light of the general teaching of Scripture.

I. Old Testament Terms.

1. To Repent - “To Pant,” “To Sigh”:

The Hebrew word נחם, nāḥam, is an onomatopoetic term which implies difficulty in breathing, hence, “to pant,” “to sigh,” “to groan.” Naturally it came to signify “to lament” or “to grieve,” and when the emotion was produced by the desire of good for others, it merged into compassion and sympathy, and when incited by a consideration of one's own character and deeds it means “to rue,” “to repent.” To adapt language to our understanding, God is represented as repenting when delayed penalties are at last to be inflicted, or when threatened evils have been averted by genuine reformation (Gen_6:6; Jon_3:10). This word is translated “repent” about 40 times in the Old Testament, and in nearly all cases it refers to God. The principal idea is not personal relation to sin, either in its experience of grief or in turning from an evil course. Yet the results of sin are manifest in its use. God's heart is grieved at man's iniquity, and in love He bestows His grace, or in justice He terminates His mercy. It indicates the aroused emotions of God which prompt Him to a different course of dealing with the people. Similarly when used with reference to man, only in this case the consciousness of personal transgression is evident. This distinction in the application of the word is intended by such declarations as God “is not a man, that he should repent” (1Sa_15:29; Job_42:6; Jer_8:6).

2. To Repent - “To Turn” or “Return”:

The term שׁוּב, shūbh, is most generally employed to express the Scriptural idea of genuine repentance. It is used extensively by the prophets, and makes prominent the idea of a radical change in one's attitude toward sin and God. It implies a conscious, moral separation, and a personal decision to forsake sin and to enter into fellowship with God. It is employed extensively with reference to man's turning away from sin to righteousness (Deu_4:30; Neh_1:9; Psa_7:12; Jer_3:14). It quite often refers to God in His relation to man (Exo_32:12; Jos_7:26). It is employed to indicate the thorough spiritual change which God alone can effect (Psa_85:4). When the term is translated by “return” it has reference either to man, to God, or to God and man (1Sa_7:3; Psa_90:13 (both terms, nāḥam and shūbh; Isa_21:12; Isa_55:7). Both terms are also sometimes employed when the twofold idea of grief and altered relation is expressed, and are translated by “repent” and “return” (Eze_14:6; Hos_12:6; Jon_3:8).

II. New Testament Terms.

1. Repent - “To Care,” “Be Concerned”:

The term μεταμέλομαι, metamélomai, literally signifies to have a feeling or care, concern or regret; like nāḥam, it expresses the emotional aspect of repentance. The feeling indicated by the word may issue in genuine repentance, or it may degenerate into mere remorse (Mat_21:29, Mat_21:32; Mat_27:3). Judas repented only in the sense of regret, remorse, and not in the sense of the abandonment of sin. The word is used with reference to Paul's feeling concerning a certain course of conduct, and with reference to God in His attitude toward His purposes of grace (2Co_7:8 the King James Version; Heb_7:21).

2. Repent - “To Change the Mind”:

The word μετανοέω, metanoéō, expresses the true New Testament idea of the spiritual change implied in a sinner's return to God. The term signifies “to have another mind,” to change the opinion or purpose with regard to sin. It is equivalent to the Old Testament word “turn.” Thus, it is employed by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles (Mat_3:2; Mar_1:15; Act_2:38). The idea expressed by the word is intimately associated with different aspects of spiritual transformation and of Christian life, with the process in which the agency of man is prominent, as faith (Act_20:21), and as conversion (Act_3:19); also with those experiences and blessings of which God alone is the author, as remission and forgiveness of sin (Luk_24:47; Act_5:31). It is sometimes conjoined with baptism, which as an overt public act proclaims a changed relation to sin and God (Mar_1:4; Luk_3:3; Act_13:24; Act_19:4). As a vital experience, repentance is to manifest its reality by producing good fruits appropriate to the new spiritual life (Mat_3:8).

3. Repent - “To Turn over,” “To Turn upon,” “To Turn Unto”:

The word έπιστρέφω, epistréphō, is used to bring out more clearly the distinct change wrought in repentance. It is employed quite frequently in Acts to express the positive side of a change involved in New Testament repentance, or to indicate the return to God of which the turning from sin is the negative aspect. The two conceptions are inseparable and complementary. The word is used to express the spiritual transition from sin to God (Act_9:35; 1Th_1:9); to strengthen the idea of faith (Act_11:21); and to complete and emphasize the change required by New Testament repentance (Act_26:20).
There is great difficulty in expressing the true idea of a change of thought with reference to sin when we translate the New Testament “repentance” into other languages. The Latin version renders it “exercise penitence” (poenitentiam agere). But “penitence” etymologically signifies pain, grief, distress, rather than a change of thought and purpose. Thus Latin Christianity has been corrupted by the pernicious error of presenting grief over sin rather than abandonment of sin as the primary idea of New Testament repentance. It was easy to make the transition from penitence to penance, consequently the Romanists represent Jesus and the apostles as urging people to do penance (poenitentiam agite). The English word “repent” is derived from the Latin repoenitere, and inherits the fault of the Latin, making grief the principal idea and keeping it in the background, if not altogether out of sight, the fundamental New Testament conception of a change of mind with reference to sin. But the exhortations of the ancient prophets, of Jesus, and of the apostles show that the change of mind is the dominant idea of the words employed, while the accompanying grief and consequent reformation enter into one's experience from the very nature of the case.

III. The Psychological Elements.

1. The Intellectual Element:

Repentance is that change of a sinner's mind which leads him to turn from his evil ways and live. The change wrought in repentance is so deep and radical as to affect the whole spiritual nature and to involve the entire personality. The intellect must function, the emotions must be aroused, and the will must act. Psychology shows repentance to be profound, personal and all-pervasive. The intellectual element is manifest from the nature of man as an intelligent being, and from the demands of God who desires only rational service. Man must apprehend sin as unutterably heinous, the divine law as perfect and inexorable, and himself as coming short or falling below the requirements of a holy God (Job_42:5, Job_42:6; Psa_51:3; Rom_3:20).

2. The Emotional Element:

There may be a knowledge of sin without turning from it as an awful thing which dishonors God and ruins man. The change of view may lead only to a dread of punishment and not to the hatred and abandonment of sin (Exo_9:27; Num_22:34; Jos_7:20; 1Sa_15:24; Mat_27:4). An emotional element is necessarily involved in repentance. While feeling is not the equivalent of repentance, it nevertheless may be a powerful impulse to a genuine turning from sin. A penitent cannot from the nature of the case be stolid and indifferent. The emotional attitude must be altered if New Testament repentance be experienced. There is a type of grief that issues in repentance and another which plunges into remorse. There is a godly sorrow and also a sorrow of the world. The former brings life; the latter, death (Mat_27:3; Luk_18:23; 2Co_7:9, 2Co_7:10). There must be a consciousness of sin in its effect on man and in its relation to God before there can be a hearty turning away from unrighteousness. The feeling naturally accompanying repentance implies a conviction of personal sin and sinfulness and an earnest appeal to God to forgive according to His mercy (Psa_51:1, Psa_51:2, Psa_51:10-14).

3. The Volitional Element:

The most prominent element in the psychology of repentance is the voluntary, or volitional. This aspect of the penitent's experience is expressed in the Old Testament by “turn”, or “return,” and in the New Testament by “repent” or “turn.” The words employed in the Hebrew and Greek place chief emphasis on the will, the change of mind, or of purpose, because a complete and sincere turning to God involves both the apprehension of the nature of sin and the consciousness of personal guilt (Jer_25:5; Mar_1:15; Act_2:38; 2Co_7:9, 2Co_7:10). The demand for repentance implies free will and individual responsibility. That men are called upon to repent there can be no doubt, and that God is represented as taking the initiative in repentance is equally clear. The solution of the problem belongs to the spiritual sphere. The psychical phenomena have their origin in the mysterious relations of the human and the divine personalities. There can be no external substitute for the internal change. Sackcloth for the body and remorse for the soul are not to be confused with a determined abandonment of sin and return to God. Not material sacrifice, but a spiritual change, is the inexorable demand of God in both dispensations (Psa_51:17; Isa_1:11; Jer_6:20; Hos_6:6).

Repentance is only a condition of salvation and not its meritorious ground. The motives for repentance are chiefly found in the goodness of God, in divine love, in the pleading desire to have sinners saved, in the inevitable consequences of sin, in the universal demands of the gospel, and in the hope of spiritual life and membership in the kingdom of heaven (Eze_33:11; Mar_1:15; Luk_13:1-5; Joh_3:16; Act_17:30; Rom_2:4; 1Ti_2:4). The first four beatitudes (Mat_5:3-6) form a heavenly ladder by which penitent souls pass from the dominion of Satan into the Kingdom of God. A consciousness of spiritual poverty dethroning pride, a sense of personal unworthiness producing grief, a willingness to surrender to God in genuine humility, and a strong spiritual desire developing into hunger and thirst, enter into the experience of one who wholly abandons sin and heartily turns to Him who grants repentance unto life.

[John 3:16]

Brethren, it is easier to declaim against a thousand sins of others, than to mortify one sin in ourselves"
Author: John Flavel

That one is over my head. :B: Layman/non-intellectual translation please!

[frisian1970]

That one is over my head. :B: Layman/non-intellectual translation please!
Sorry.

It is easier to find fault or condemn others sins, rather than change one of our own...(roughly that is what was said).

Glad to see ya' back around here Dale.

:wave

[Bondservant]

Brethren, it is easier to declaim against a thousand sins of others, than to mortify one sin in ourselves"
Author: John Flavel

Did someone say do it "yourself"...? Is The Holy Spirit not working within us to "mortify sin and the flesh" ? Is He grieved when we don't head Him ? Do we not know that the Holy Spirit is living in us, so if we fornicate, slander or get drunk etc. He is a Witness of it and is grieved...we do have the responsibilty to obey and submit to His Lordship.

[frisian1970]

Did someone say do it "yourself"...? Is The Holy Spirit not working within us to "mortify sin and the flesh" ? Is He grieved when we don't head Him ? Do we not know that the Holy Spirit is living in us, so if we fornicate, slander or get drunk etc. He is a Witness of it and is grieved...we do have the responsibilty to obey and submit to His Lordship.

:confused Um, yeah I agree.

[holyspiritvesse]

If you are at the altar bringing your offering and remember a brother has something against you, go, leave your offer, and make peace with your brother, Then your Heavenly Father will accept your offering.

From The Big Book

[Jael]

I just think the world would be a much nicer place if people (christians in particular) would admit their errors. I think it helps people to forgive an offense. :nod I know that sounds pretty naive. :B:

I remember having this discussion with someone who said if he confessed and apologized to God...it was forgiven and that was the only one he need concern himself with. :freaked

The verse Ants was looking for...it's not enough to apologize to God, we need to acknowledge the injury to the one we hurt too.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

I think it's pride that makes us reluctant to admit an offense. It stings to say "I was wrong" to a brother or sister and so we rationalize not following through on Matt 5:23. But we should do it.

[John 3:16]

:confused Um, yeah I agree.

Um, I actually GET that one Fris! :lol It means that the HS is the one doing the convicting and giving us the strength to confess and repent.

[John 3:16]

If you are at the altar bringing your offering and remember a brother has something against you, go, leave your offer, and make peace with your brother, Then your Heavenly Father will accept your offering.

From The Big Book


AHhhhhhh! I just noticed who posted this!! How are you doing woman? How's that business going? JV said it really took off. :):

[antitox]

Is it just simply a confession to God and a turning away from that sin or path you were on or does it involve restitution?

God knows if you've made up your mind or if you're just sorry without changing. It's not about mourning, but resolving to get on the right track.

Do you think that if "God forgives you" after you confess and repent that there is no reason to seek forgiveness or apologize to the wronged party or parties? :confused

In most cases, this is the right thing to do, unless in that situation it really wasn't your doing.

What if someone ASKS for an apology...are you obliged to give one? What if they DON'T ask for one...are you STILL obliged?

If a person asks for one, I would give it - if I did wrong in some way. Now I can apologize over something insignificant if it will resolve petty issues. That's no big deal to me.
On the other hand, Some people try to ellicit an apology from others when it really isn't deserved. These people try to use this to manipulate others or get control over situations. You should only apologize if you really did something that created an offense. But if you really didn't, don't go handing out apologies. Most of the folks that I have come across that demanded apologies did not deserve them and they really had no respect for others anyway.

[Jiggy37]

"It is one thing to have sin alarmed only by convictions, and another to have it crucified by converting grace. Many, because they have been troubled in conscience for their sins, think well of their case, miserably mistaking conviction for conversion."

JOSEPH ALLIENE
I suddenly feel unsaved now. :wacko
How, exactly, are we supposed to tell the difference between these two conditions (having sin alarmed and having sin crucified)?

[Bondservant]

A man can be pricked by his conscience that what he is doing is wrong (the unsaved man who commits sin may well know it is wrong and he might feel some degree of guilt)...but that does not cause him to change his actions, he continues in his lifestyle and his conscience will eventually become seared. Surely when a man experiences true conversion the Holy Spirit working in his life and his surrender to God, will bring *change* in his actions. Changed hearts, mean changed lives. Having sin crucified means it is nailed to the Cross..if a man is trapped in a sin, let him take it to the cross..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal.2:20
What is the meaning of "Mat 16:24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." ?

[holyspiritvesse]

Well said Bondservant.

I like the words to Amazing Grace, as I feel they describe the 'lightbulb' experience that happens when we surrender to Christ and have our eyes and ears open by the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

[holyspiritvesse]

Hi John 3:16!
Thanks for asking!
The biz is still WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY too slow for any kind of real income, but I do sell enough to pay a few bills and keep up the expense of maintaining the merchant account for taking charge cards and such.


I did sell a bundle that went to England last month, and the month before that a hospital in Atlanta bought 100 for the chaplain staff to give to families after a loved one passes away. This could be a good avenue for the white ones that maybe I need to market more.

Alas, I am working fulltime now too, for maggiescrochet.com, supporting a kid in college, etc, and run out of steam quickly!

I am looking at changing the wording on the first page. (foreverkeeps.com).

Did JV move to TX yet?

[John 3:16]

Yes, JV moved. I sent her the first email the other day since she moved and she wrote back and said she had moved and was very busy and would write back later. Still waiting. :):

You know, they would be great with foster children moving into another home also. I used to make care bags since some of these kids leave their birth home with almost no notice. My little bags used to include a stuffed animal, a snack and juicebox and some sort of toy and apparel item like socks that could be for either sex. Kind of like a christmas box for Samaritan's purse.

Major hijack! :freaked At least I was the OP!

[Chronus]

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret . . . See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eargerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done." - 2 Corinthians 7:10-11

Where can we find an example of this?

"But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, 'Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.' Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham . . . '" - Luke 19:8-9

Christians have a desire to clear themselves by making right what they did wrong. :):

[MikeJ]

I think Hal Lindsey defined it well; "Repentance is agreeing with God."

[John 3:16]

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret . . . See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eargerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done." - 2 Corinthians 7:10-11

Where can we find an example of this?

"But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, 'Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.' Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham . . . '" - Luke 19:8-9

Christians have a desire to clear themselves by making right what they did wrong. :):

That's good Chronus. Thanks. :):

[HeIsEnough]

Hey John 3:16,
Sometimes, its better to be offended or wronged, then to press for rights. I mean mainly in your own mind, and somewhat in action. Afterall, forgivness starts upstairs. The most relieving attitude and feeling that I have had is in releasing an offender from any right I could claim. It helps me more, in my soul. If it be at all possible, try it, I believe the Lord can use that for great healing in your life.

[John 3:16]

Hey John 3:16,
Sometimes, its better to be offended or wronged, then to press for rights. I mean mainly in your own mind, and somewhat in action. Afterall, forgivness starts upstairs. The most relieving attitude and feeling that I have had is in releasing an offender from any right I could claim. It helps me more, in my soul. If it be at all possible, try it, I believe the Lord can use that for great healing in your life.

I agree with you. Though that is hard sometimes and takes awhile in some cases. But I was asking this question from all angles really. Not only do I wonder why a christian wouldn't want to acknowledge the pain he/she caused to me or others, but do I owe others an apology also? Sometimes the opportunity has long since passed and it only causes further stirring. But if I know someone was hurt by me and I see evidence that I could right a wrong and relieve them of a burden, I would want to do it in spite of any embarrassment I would feel. Especially if that person outright asked me WHY did you do that to me or "do you know how much pain that caused me". Granted, that's alittle "in your face" and I would be sorta taken aback by that and wonder if their purpose was pure.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. :):

[holyspiritvesse]

John 3:16 I can SO relate to what you are describing!

I wonder too why a Christian wouldn't want to make things right ESPECIALLY if they knew someone was struggling with the events. Their response though unfortunately is they have asked God to forgive them and that is all they need to do. Even when an unsaved person sees this lack of apology as very unChristlike.

[HeIsEnough]

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. :):

Sure, I agree too. We are happy :):
I just thought of that one side. We should always try to right the wrong if an opportunity was available, or ask for forgivness if possible. How the other person gives forgivness will be their problem, ultimately. It would be in their best interest to forgive fully as well. We all know what living with unforgivness is like. I would take the opportunity to at least try if I could.