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crtwhlfrchrst
September 2nd, 2004, 03:59 PM
Here is something interesting and challenging I found on a website today called xxxchurch.com:



As many of you can tell from this website, XXXchurch is about change, it is about honesty and it is about being real. These are some things that the church today struggles with. We cannot change and keep up with the things of the world, we are not honest with one another and the things we talk about and the things we do just do not seem real.

The church needs to get out of its fancy buildings, its mega campuses and make believe worlds and "get in the gutter". The purpose of the church is not to create safe places; the purpose of the church is to serve the world. The truth of the matter is that the center of God’s will is not a safe place but the most dangerous place in the world! It’s time for the church and for believers to "get in the gutter". We have fallen asleep and it is time for a wake up call.

I am reading An Unstoppable Force by Erwin McManus and he makes some prolific points about the church that I want to share with you. If you don’t go to church, the things he says are probably the reasons why and if you so go to church or lead a church, listen up!
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We have chosen standardization over uniqueness. We have chosen predictability over surprise.

The church is influenced by the world around her and called to influence the world in which she exists.

When relationships become stagnant and the community of Christ closes itself to the outside world, the result is an institution rather than a movement

Over the past forty years, the communities around many churches have changed dramatically, yet the church has stayed the same. Somewhere in the community’s transformation, the church disconnected.

The church must acclimate to a changing world, or she will destine herself to irrelevance or even extinction.

The more one focuses on one’s own living, the less one is concerned about giving life to others.

The church must always strive to be giving birth to the future.

Once survival has become our supreme goal, we have lost our way.

The purpose of the church cannot be to survive or even to thrive but to serve.

The life of the church is the heart of God. The heart of God is to serve a broken world.

When the church refuses to serve the world, she begins to waste away.

The real tragedy is not the churches are dying but that churches have lost their reason to live.

The reality was that pastors were being equipped to preserve the past rather that to create the future.

Seminaries were producing pastors who were ready for the pulpits but not for the challenge.

We spent million of dollars preserving our music and hymnals rather that creating worship that expresses the culture in which we live.

The church began to realize that our home turf had become our mission field and very few were called to missions.

The church became a fortress from the world rather that the hope of the world.

The church at best, fell asleep. It might be fair to say that we lost the power to transform culture.

The world changed, and we didn’t. The world changed for the worse because we didn’t change at all.

People are rejecting Christ, because of the church!

Our motto changed from "We are the church, here to serve a lost and broken world" to "what does the church have to offer me?"

Are we too much about us getting fed and too little about us exercising our faith?

If those who prepare for leadership are looking for the safe place, who will lead the church into dangerous places?

The truth of the matter is that the center of God’s will is not a safe place but the most dangerous place in the world!

God fears nothing and no one!

Institutions preserve culture, while movements create culture.

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Thanks to the guys at www.xxxchurch.com, who originally compiled this list of quotes and wrote the preceding article.

Chris4Christ
September 2nd, 2004, 04:39 PM
People are responsible for their own choices. If somebody rejects Christ, they have nobody but themselves to blame.

And it's not the least bit Scriptural that buildings used to hold gatherings for members of the church cannot exceed a certain size or that they should be built "in the gutter."

crtwhlfrchrst
September 2nd, 2004, 05:59 PM
Ezekiel 3:1-16 . . . the blood of those who die without Christ is on our hands if we do not even try to reach them with God's message (my paraphrase).


As for building in the gutter . . . two things:

First off, I think he means we the people (who are the church) should not consider the extent of our spiritual life to be sunday church, but that WE should be out "in the gutters" where the real world is trying to reach them with God's love.

And, why not build in the gutter? Bums need Jesus too, don't they?

Singlesis
September 2nd, 2004, 06:03 PM
Where do we catch more fish: safe on the shoreline, or out in the wild blue deep?

Jiggy37
September 2nd, 2004, 06:48 PM
If you don’t go to church, the things he says are probably the reasons why
:nod
I find this to be very true for many people.

The real tragedy is not th[at] churches are dying but that churches have lost their reason to live.The reality was that pastors were being equipped to preserve the past rather tha[n] to create the future.The church became a fortress from the world rather tha[n] the hope of the world.The church at best, fell asleep. It might be fair to say that we lost the power to transform culture.The world changed, and we didn’t. The world changed for the worse because we didn’t change at all.
These were the top five quotes on that list for me.

joy4Him2day
September 2nd, 2004, 06:58 PM
The truth of the matter is that the center of God’s will is not a safe place but the most dangerous place in the world!

The more I hear "the call" to come out, the more I find this to be true.......

.....if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
....too many are still trying to 'gain the whole world' instead of laying down their life for a friend........

I think there is some merit to these thoughts......

matheteou
September 3rd, 2004, 02:57 AM
The truth of the matter is that the center of God’s will is not a safe place but the most dangerous place in the world!

The more I hear "the call" to come out, the more I find this to be true.......

.....if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
....too many are still trying to 'gain the whole world' instead of laying down their life for a friend........

I think there is some merit to these thoughts......Dangerous in whose opinion?And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28)

Jiggy37
September 3rd, 2004, 05:10 AM
Dangerous in whose opinion?
She did specify "most dangerous in the world," and as far as I know, hell isn't in the world... ;):

But seriously, I do see what you're saying. It's true that there's nothing to fear, which is why it's all the more sad that so much (though not all) of the church has acted as if there is.

crtwhlfrchrst
September 3rd, 2004, 07:57 AM
I think what he means by "most dangerous place" is that for a Christian on earth, you will never know persecution quite like the persecution you get for being bold and open about God's truth - be it the social "persecution" we get here in America, or the true physical persecution Christians receive in other countries of the world - speaking and living out for God is a dangerous thing to do . . . if you value your quality of life on earth. Granted, we who know the truth know that it is more dangerous to stand against God in light of eternity - but in terms of the kind of earthly life we will have, doing God's will is right, commanded by God, and dangerous!

And, the sad fact is that many join the church hoping to just sit back and remain quiet in their faith - but this is not what God wants of us. The church is not a refuge from the world, it is a base of operations to support our incursion INTO the world! If we are only meant to sit in a building and worship God, then why not just kill ourselves and worship Him face to face? No, God has work for us here on earth, and it does not involve hiding behind the cross from the "big bad culture"

Jael
September 3rd, 2004, 08:31 AM
I think what he means by "most dangerous place" is that for a Christian on earth, you will never know persecution quite like the persecution you get for being bold and open about God's truth - be it the social "persecution" we get here in America, or the true physical persecution Christians receive in other countries of the world - speaking and living out for God is a dangerous thing to do . . . if you value your quality of life on earth. Granted, we who know the truth know that it is more dangerous to stand against God in light of eternity - but in terms of the kind of earthly life we will have, doing God's will is right, commanded by God, and dangerous!

This is true...but in fairness, I don't think the expression "the safest place in the whole wide world is in the will of God" was meant to convey that you will be physically safe or comfortable or emotionally happy if you are in God's will. Rather that if you are in His will, you are safe in His care and He is working things together for good, regardless of what you have to endure.

As Paul said:

2Cr 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

2Cr 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

So both expressions are true - the will of God is both a dangerous place and a safe place - depending on the definitions you are using for "danger" and "safety".

sarahbeth
September 3rd, 2004, 08:48 AM
"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things." (Acts 17:24-25)


16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16, NKJV).

Sarah

crtwhlfrchrst
September 3rd, 2004, 08:56 AM
"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things." (Acts 17:24-25)


16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16, NKJV).

Sarah


Nicely cited! :thumb

crtwhlfrchrst
September 3rd, 2004, 08:58 AM
This is true...but in fairness, I don't think the expression "the safest place in the whole wide world is in the will of God" was meant to convey that you will be physically safe or comfortable or emotionally happy if you are in God's will. Rather that if you are in His will, you are safe in His care and He is working things together for good, regardless of what you have to endure.

As Paul said:

2Cr 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

2Cr 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

So both expressions are true - the will of God is both a dangerous place and a safe place - depending on the definitions you are using for "danger" and "safety".


Good stuff! Isn't it funny how semantics change things? I might have said the difference between the two statements depends on what "place" means - does it mean the place your body is in (the earth) or the place your eternal soul is in (in or out of God's will)! I guess we all approach what we read differently!

Chris4Christ
September 3rd, 2004, 10:40 AM
As for building in the gutter . . . two things:

First off, I think he means we the people (who are the church) should not consider the extent of our spiritual life to be sunday church, but that WE should be out "in the gutters" where the real world is trying to reach them with God's love.
I agree and never suggested otherwise.

And, why not build in the gutter? Bums need Jesus too, don't they?
This was the distinction I wanted to make. There's nothing wrong with building "in the gutter"...there should be places of worship everywhere...BUT there's also nothing wrong with places of worship in the heart of Beverly Hills either. After all, there are human gutters in all walks of life.

crtwhlfrchrst
September 3rd, 2004, 03:20 PM
Good point - I guess the author himself is pointing out the churches that cater to the rich for the sake of image.

Willo
September 4th, 2004, 12:28 AM
People are rejecting Christ, because they don't want to change their sinful life style, and repent

7Rock
September 4th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Where do we catch more fish: safe on the shoreline, or out in the wild blue deep?

It depends on what you`re fishing for! :B:

Bondservant
September 5th, 2004, 11:22 PM
People are rejecting Christ for THIS reason :
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Fool for Christ
September 6th, 2004, 11:07 PM
A church I used to go to announced a plan to go door-to-door giving out Bibles and inviting people to church. I thought we would be going to the poor neighborhoods, but when the day came, we went to a really nice, new neighborhood. Granted, if they just moved to town into a new house they may not have a church yet, but I still think we should have gone into the poor, down-and-out neighborhoods. Even though they may not be able to tithe.

joy4Him2day
September 6th, 2004, 11:33 PM
Dangerous in whose opinion?

the intent of the word "dangerous", I guess, matters.
I think God is dangerous to our self-preservation.....in that He calls for us to give up our plans, ways, and motives, for His, and we do not know what this may mean.
Is God safe? I think, He is, but while following Him, one often "feels" unsafe.....you do not know where He may be taking you, or what the result may be......taking up one's cross, seems to me, a "dangerous" statement, it may mean "death" to something very important to us at the time.......that is why I quoted the "he who seeks to save his life will lose it, and he who loses his life, for My sake, will find it........", because until we get to that "understanding", I find it can be quite terrifying.......
you can be scared, and still be capable of trust.......I am just trying to be really real right now...... I love Him with all my heart, I believe He is thinking of the best for me, however, I do not know what methods He will chose to teach me......and I have learned, that He calls me to discipline...dangerous to my lazy self.......calls me to give all....dangerous to my selfish self.....calls me to love unconditionally....dangerous to my self-preservation........see what I mean by dangerous? We are not whimpy followers....why are we called Soldiers? Because we are in dangerous places when we walk in His plan.....we are in enemy territory, who desires to sift us.....destroy us.....who is relentless......it is dangerous...... :):