A Messianic question about the cross

[yieldedandstill]

My congregation shares a church. There is a large cross in the sanctuary. My rabbi hangs a banner over the cross. He says Jesus died on an execution stake, not a cross, and that the cross is offensive to Jews because of all the crimes committed against them under the banner of the cross.

If we had our own building, I know there would be no cross to begin with. But since there is one in this church, it offends me to see it covered up. Whether or not the shape of it is exactly correct, it reminds me of the price Jesus/Yeshua paid for MY sins.

Am I wrong to feel this way? Am I just nitpicking? My rabbi and my congregation love Jesus/Yeshua. And I love my congregation and rabbi, but this is an issue that keeps coming up for me. By the way, he doesn’t cover it up every Sabbath. About once a month he leaves it uncovered as a compromise to “Christians”.

Tonight I went to our Erev Shabbat services, and I was kinda down before I went. When I got there, and saw the cross covered up, I just cried for the whole 3 hour service. I held my cross pendant in my hand and prayed for forgiveness and direction. At one point I very nearly just got up and left. I’m still not convinced that I shouldn’t have.

Ok, I gotta admit I am on an emotional roller coaster right now, so I’m just trying to figure out whether I’m blowing this out of proportion. Please be gentle with your feedback. I am fragile right now. :cry

[yieldedandstill]

1 Corinthians 1:18-31
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ - crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Mt 10:38 - "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Mr 8:34 - And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

Lu 9:23 - And He was saying to {them} all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Lu 14:27 - "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Ga 6:14 - But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

And so I see the cross, and remember the sacrifice of Yeshua for MY sins. When I confess and repent, I lay my sins at the foot of the cross, not the star of david.

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

His dying crimson, like a robe,
Spreads o’er His body on the tree;
Then I am dead to all the globe,
And all the globe is dead to me.

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

[HollowofHishand]

Green Aspect ((((hugs))))
I don't know what is happening in your life right now, but please know that there are those on this board that love and care for you ~ even if they don't post it!

As for your question about the cross. There are some on the RRB that say the cross is offensive because it symbolizes Roman cruelty and nothing more. But for me, the cross is symbolic because it is empty!!!! It reminds me that not only did Jesus die for me and is risen, but that because of His great sacrifice, in MY place, I will never have to "die on the cross." The cross is empty, and will forever remain so because of God's love for us.
I am curious, however, why your Rabbi says he uncovers the cross once a month as a compromise for the Christians. In my mind, all those who believe on Christ are Christians. Just as all Christians are adopted (grafted) onto the "tree" of Israel.
To view the cross as offensive because of all the harm done to Jews under the banner of the cross is unfortunate. Many true Christians were also done great harm under the banner of the cross. It is our duty to restore the cross back to its true symbolic meaning ~ salvation.
Anyway, Let not your heart be troubled. I pray that God will hold you in the hollow of His hand.

[yieldedandstill]

Thank you, Alison. Thank you for your prayers and hugs. I feel better today!

It is true that a lot of wrong and horrible things have been done by "Christians", under the banner of the cross, in the name of Jesus. That doesn't make Christians, the cross, or Jesus, bad.

I was wrong about the timing - he now leaves it uncovered every other Sabbath. So that is a good compromise. It's just that God has used the symbol of the cross to speak to me so many times. For example, having a rough day at work, feeling lower than low, looking out the front toward the cafeteria, and the sun through the windows displaying a huge white light cross on the wall. For just a minute, just for me. Before I could call anyone to witness it, the sun moved, and the cross disappeared. But it spoke to me loud and clear. Jesus was right there with me, and for Him to remind me in this way gave me a huge boost! I could have leaped over a mountain after that!

And there have been several other times, a lot of times involving the sunlight... I just feel like I am betraying Jesus by condoning the covering of the cross. Yes, I know it is just a symbol. But the sign of the cross is important. I referenced some scripture above - and this study from Chuck Missler is fascinating (improved by Joshua's Gen!) about the camp of Israel being laid out in the shape of the cross http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=160064&page=2&pp=25
and I just read in Ezekiel 9:4 to "put a mark on the foreheads of those that sign and cry over all the abominations done with Jerusalem". The mark was the taw, the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In ancient Hebrew it resembled our small t or x, and it meant 'a sign'. This same mark was put on the doorposts at Passover to preserve the firstborn of the Hebrews. The sign of the cross is throughout Scripture, foretelling that the elect are sealed in Christ.

so, what to do, what to do? Just go to synagogue every other Sabbath?
:confused

[Patty T]

Hi Green :hug

I don't know if this will help or not - maybe you could ask your Rabbi how he feels about this portion of scripture:

Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

1 Corin 1: (cf. Is. 29:14)

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."*


20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the *Greeks foolishness,

24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The cross is an extremely important part of our Christian belief IMHO.

Patty

[Jael]

And while you are at it, add this one:

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Paul said the cross was the only thing he would glory in...the Bible uses the cross to symbolize everything that Jesus did for us on calvary and the whole message of the gospel (1Cr 1:17, 1Cr 1:18, Eph 2:16, Gal 6:12, Col 1:20). When Paul described those who opposed the gospel, in one instance he called them "enemies of the cross" (Phl 3:18). If your congregation is offended by the cross, they must struggle with reading the NT!

[HeIsEnough]

I'm not sure what to say Julie, so I suppose I would say how I would view it in your shoes. I would be quite offended by it, honestly. And I would be offended by an artificial separation between christians and....what Jews? Messianics? I don't quite get the compromise part. It's almost as if its beneath him to join with the regular ole fool for Christ. I would die before the I was ashamed of the cross, and its glorious message of hope, not shame. The cross stands as the point in time where man was redeemed by God, it is precious. Anyhow, follow what the Spirit and scriptures are telling you, in that, you will never do wrong.

[Charity4Ever]

I agree with the other posters. The Holy Spirit in me is waving red flags.

I guess I would go and talk with the rabbi first, and show him that Scripture mentioned here. And if that continued I would go find somewhere else to worship.

[pilgrimian]

Unfortunately, the cross has been a symbol that has been misused by the Church through the years (and I'm speaking as one who grew up in a church that had a large cross at the front--though I also grew up with no interest in Israel, and no teaching about our need to cause them envy for the faith). For any group that is an outreach to Jews who are not Believers I don't blame them one bit for covering the cross. These individuals have a veil over their hearts, as Paul wrote. There are ages and ages that we must cut through in our outreach to unbelieving Jews.

I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit cannot do this, as I know He does. All the Jewish believers I know glory in what happened at the cross. But to Jewish unbelievers it is a MUCH different story. A very DIFFERENT story altogether. Satan has done a good job in making the cross a terrible symbol for some.

This isn't "backing into Christianity," as some say. And it isn't Judaizing, as others naively state. This is simply not using a symbol that has been misused, unfortunately. Paul says he glories in the cross...but it is what happened on the cross that he glories in...not the cross itself. Paul also writes that a man hanging on a tree is cursed. Christ redeemed us from the curse. This doesn't mean we need a cross at the front of our churches, though.

Galatians 3:

13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree". (Deut. 21:23).

I'm not sure what your Rabbi means when he talks of an execution stake. The cross has been well-documented as the means of the atonement.

When I used to attend church in Michigan I would fix my eyes on the cross and pray, and meditate on Christ's love. Thesedays I look at the flag of Israel and meditate on what it shows...the upper triangle shows God reaching down to us...the lower triangle shows our arms lifted in praise to Him. It was something for me to get used to, but the Lord has blessed me in this. I don't see covering the cross as shameful or wrong. We have a cross here at our home, but not at the place where we meet for church.

Incidentally, the Gospel is in NO WAY compromised by my pastor. It's just that we don't have a cross at the front. Did the Church at Ephesus, Philadelphia, etc., have a cross at the front??? I don't recall any passages that show it to be a necessity. By the way, I'm a Gentile.

Just my two cents...

Ben David Messianic Jewish Congregation (http://www.bendavidmjc.org/)

Shalom,
Matthew

[blitzkreig]

I'm not sure what your Rabbi means when he talks of an execution stake. The cross has been well-documented as the means of the atonement. That execution stake is a Jehovah Witness belief...

Did Jesus die on a cross? (http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm)


do a google on the three words "execution stake cross" and you will find a number of interesting articles...

[pilgrimian]

That execution stake is a Jehovah Witness belief...

Did Jesus die on a cross? (http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm)


do a google on the three words "execution stake cross" and you will find a number of interesting articles...


Hmmmmm! I had no idea JW's held to that. Strange...but interesting. Even more interesting to me is the name of the fellow whose book they attempt to use: Lipsius. My last name is Lipsey. Hmmm! I'll read more...

Godspeed,
Matthew

[Xlcor]

All one needs to do is study historical documents about the execution practices of ancient Rome. Depictions of crucifictions are numerous, showing both the "X" and the "T" styles of crosses. In John 20:25, 'doubting' Thomas says he will not believe until he sees the print of the nails, and puts his finger in the print of the nails. If the cross was only an vertical pole, there would be no place to nail the hands (or wrists). A horizontal beam is necessary to accomplish this. :doh

[Bondservant]

Paul was a Messianic Jew and he was not ashamed or offended by the Cross, he said he gloried in it.