How do I respond to an Atheist?

[Martha]

Please read the following email, the names have been changed: How do I respond to this email from a co-worker. I'm young in my knowledge of the Lord. She's an atheist and I want to respond in a way that makes her think, I would like to see her converted/saved but she's pretty routed in her decision that there is no God. What would you do or say?

I know you will think about the conversation we had yesterday (& pray for me - lol) so i thought a little more explanation would give you something to consider, etc. ((not trying to convert you!)) just so when you're thinking it all out and forming your opinions you know what it is you're disagreeing with. :)

theism is "belief of existence of a god or gods, especially in belief of a personal God as creator and ruler of the world". the prefix "a" just means non... so i have a "non belief of ...". while that's true, i would call my personal beliefs:

"scientific/realistic" - whereas i don't believe things are controlled by an outside or higher power - but by things that can be seen, comprehended and understood (the opposite of "having faith" i suppose),

"humanistic" - that the humans that inhabit this planet (natural disasters aside) assume much of the responsibility for things being the way they are -- either good or bad. Ex. a human's choice to not recycle ruins the environment, a human's choice to donate food helps a needy person, a human's choice to hijack a plane kills innocent people, a human's choice to become a singer entertains and inspires others, etc. i feel that it's our responsibility to control what we can to make this world the best place it can be, for all of us,

"reactionary" - there is no preordaination, good or bad luck, etc. -- just things that happen, our reactions (the choices we make), and the results. Ex. you're at a party and you're driving home and you're offered alcohol. you choose to drink and drive anyway and make it. nothing happens to you. you do this 10 times and eventually you hit a sober family of 4 and kill them all. you didn't have "good luck" before, but "bad luck" now for some
odd reason. god didn't say "i'll let her get away with it 9 times but the 10th - no way!! she deserves some punishment" that doesn't make sense anyway because now 4 innocent people are dead, their families mourn and while you feel bad, you still have your life and they don't -- all that just to prove a point to YOU? no, it's a logical result of doing the same thing over and over again -- something bad was bound to happen eventually whether you died, you killed someone, you wrecked your car, you lost a limb, etc... like the more you put your name in a raffle the more it increases your chances of winning... you may not win in 3 tries but in 100... it's "guaranteed".

all 3 are pretty closely interrelated -- life is a matter of probability, variables, situation, timing, etc.

anyway, i said on a very basic level any person would LIKE for everyone to "just agree with them", right? theoretically speaking, if we all thought the same thing there would be no reason to fight which would be pleasant!! :)

BUT what makes me SO certain of my current beliefs is that i don't feel a compelling need for people to see it my way or agree with me. it's like i KNOW i'm right and that's enough for me. the best way i can think to explain that feeling is that say you took a test and studied really hard for it, you knew you'd done well and you ended up with a perfect score... everybody in the class says you must have cheated but you KNOW the truth and
aren't bothered by what anybody thinks. because you KNOW.

when i was a christian (again, most of my life - i only questioned within the last 6 years, researched ~ 4 and fully came into my current beliefs ~ 8 months ago) i felt i HAD to convince people who didn't believe the same as me that they were wrong (well the bible does say so!! but i also thought i was doing them a favor). if there was any kind of a religious discussion i would take it to heart and feel very emotional - whether it was being
"heated" at someone for not seeing things my way (god's way!), upset by the fact that i "knew they were going to hell" because they believed in the wrong god, pitying them for not being able to "get it" even after i'd explained all about my god, indignant because i (and my god and my bible) was right and and i didn't want to hear their side because whatever (my) god says goes!! so what is there really to discuss?! but now i don't feel
like i have to defend or prove anything or go around sharing my beliefs (although if you ask i don't mind) -- i am happy with mine and you can be happy with yours and that's ok...

i don't claim to have all of the answers to everything (for example my being unsure of how the earth was created) but neither does ANY human on this earth past, present or future. and you can claim "well god knows everything", but again... if there were a god, "he/she/it" is not a person. so still... nobody here knows all the answers. so i don't feel bad!! i am totally ok with saying "i don't know" when i don't know something!

again, just a little more explanation because i know you're feeling flabberghasted at why someone who KNOWS the bible, the christian god, etc. would become atheist -- for most people it's a form of rebellion because they lose someone or something very important to them, blame god and decide to "exact revenge" by blasphemy. but that's not my case, so it makes it a little harder to "get", i know.

ahhhh...free will. i want to explain how i formed my opinion on that as well. this is my thought on the whole adam/eve/devil/tree/etc. situation. speaking of an omnipotent god who supposedly created everything (good & evil) and totally knew what was going to happen before it happened and "loves us like his own children" and "gave his only begotten son", etc... being a mother myself it's very easy to put myself in "his" shoes. say i'm god. Lisa* obviously has free will to do what she wants, right? i'm god so i can see the future. i know for a fact that if i plant this tree in my front yard, and tell Lisa* she's forbidden to climb it because there will be serious consequences, that she will choose to climb it anyway and fall and become paralyzed when she's 4 years old. i plant the tree anyway and this exactly happens. Lisa* knows that i knew what was going to happen to her and could have prevented it (either by not planting the tree or intervening) but i didn't, because i wanted her to make her own decision and live with it. she can choose to still love me at this point, after all i raised her from a baby and have always been good to her and i warned her!!! or hate me for what >>i<< let happen to her. i feel she would be totally justified in hating me!!! what kind of a sick parent would let anything bad happen to their child - their flesh and blood, their heart!! - if they could knowingly prevent it by ANY means?! just for the purpose of "teaching them a lesson" and leaving the child with the option to love them or not?! i want Lisa* to love me, of course. and i also want her to know i will do ANYTHING within my measly power to protect her from harm. it's just one of the many things that doesn't quite ring true with christianity. on the surface some things sound good but when you think them through a little further... i, at least, was left thinking... "hey... wait a minute...".

oh, and how the conversation started... ok, it may sound like a warped double standard that i would teach Lisa* how to curse and be ok with it, but not want her to learn things like the lord's prayer, etc. well it's not and this is why -- i'm not against her learning ANY words (or languages for that matter). they're just words and they're used to communicate and as long as she knows how to use them in the correct context, i don't have a problem
with it... like i said, the real problem would be me not wanting her to get in trouble at school because of something i let her do at home. everybody puts such a bad stigma on "those words"... but generally a "good" connotation on things like prayers. anyway, again, it's just words, just a poem or whatever. i don't intend to "hide" religion from her. i do not want my mom "teaching/preaching" her beliefs to Lisa* though, because she will not be objective. she will put her personal spin on it. i want her to learn about all religions - their history, these are their beliefs, differences and similarities, etc. i know whatever my mom says will be "tainted" the same way i learned it growing up -- like it IS the only way. even though i'm atheist i will not teach Lisa* to say she is atheist just because i chose that. it's up to her. i just want her to make an objective, informed decision vs. having to find out the hard way... anyway, my mom gave Lisa* a bible for her 1st christmas and i kept it and added it to her library. again, i'm not trying to hide anything from her... or diss my mom... i just want to do this the right way.

[mbtcforJesus]

Martha I would highly recommend you watch Kirk Cameron's program on TBN called The Way of the Master.
http://www.wayofthemaster.com

In it they show scenes where they talk to people on the streets. They use the 10 Commandments and ask people if they've ever lied, or stolen anything, used God's name in vain, looked at a man or woman with lust etc. You should see the look on the faces of the people when they realize that they're excuses are no good and they realize their need for Jesus.

God bless and most importantly pray the Lord would soften the person's heart that you're witnessing to and give you wisdom as to what to say. :):

[Daisy Cutter]

why did she turn away from God? just because she had questions? LOOK FOR ANSWERS!

ask her that on my behalf?

[toadblossom]

ahhhh...free will. i want to explain how i formed my opinion on that as well. this is my thought on the whole adam/eve/devil/tree/etc. situation. speaking of an omnipotent god who supposedly created everything (good & evil) and totally knew what was going to happen before it happened and "loves us like his own children" and "gave his only begotten son", etc... being a mother myself it's very easy to put myself in "his" shoes. say i'm god. Lisa* obviously has free will to do what she wants, right? i'm god so i can see the future. i know for a fact that if i plant this tree in my front yard, and tell Lisa* she's forbidden to climb it because there will be serious consequences, that she will choose to climb it anyway and fall and become paralyzed when she's 4 years old. i plant the tree anyway and this exactly happens. Lisa* knows that i knew what was going to happen to her and could have prevented it (either by not planting the tree or intervening) but i didn't, because i wanted her to make her own decision and live with it. she can choose to still love me at this point, after all i raised her from a baby and have always been good to her and i warned her!!! or hate me for what >>i<< let happen to her. i feel she would be totally justified in hating me!!! what kind of a sick parent would let anything bad happen to their child - their flesh and blood, their heart!! - if they could knowingly prevent it by ANY means?! just for the purpose of "teaching them a lesson" and leaving the child with the option to love them or not?! i want Lisa* to love me, of course. and i also want her to know i will do ANYTHING within my measly power to protect her from harm. it's just one of the many things that doesn't quite ring true with christianity. on the surface some things sound good but when you think them through a little further... i, at least, was left thinking... "hey... wait a minute...".

Hmmm... Seems like she has a big problem with free will.
What parent doesn't allow their children to make mistakes and learn from them? Do you let your child grow up in a plastic bubble and then send them out into the world? No, you let them make their own decisions while under your watchful care/ your protection before they are completely on their own. Yes, God knew before hand Adam and Eve would fall into sin. BUT He made provision for our redemption at the cross before the beginning.

[Now You See HIM]

As always, the best I can do is to suggest a few links...

:D:

http://www.ex-atheist.com

http://www.carm.org/atheism.htm

http://www.rationalchristianity.net

[cinlynn]

You could also possibly challenge her to make an earnest study of the prophecies concerning Jesus as the Christ. :nod

Suggest she read "The Case for Christ", and the book of martyrs.

[seeker42]

Logic and reasoning are strange things. We have the ability to use them in order to arrive at conclusions which are accurate. But we also have the ability to use them and arrive at conclusions which are not logical.

It is possible to have conclusions that are arrived at, that have nothing to do with the process of how they were arrived at.

The fact that a child may or may not be angry, or may or may not understand a parent is not a sufficient basis...to play a major role in the decision making process of a parent. Usually parents who love their children do what is right for them.

Sometimes the children understand them, sometimes the children don't. God gives us enough answers to live life on this planet. There are other answers that we will receive when we are in Heaven with Him. Right now, we see things imperfectly.

Someone who knows that the Bible affirms that we see "through a glass darkly" understands that the Bible (God's revelation to us) gives NOT ALL OF THE ANSWERS, but rather all of the answers that we can understand for now, in our state of being humans who are also sinners.

Not to be rude, but I have had some conversations with atheists before. THey like to believe that they were Christians before. I think that they should be challenged on this point.

They professed a faith which they intellectually grasped, but they obviously did not profess a Faith which TRANSFORMED, because they were not transformed.

Since they were not transformed, they were most likely not Christians to begin with. THerefore, the implicit statement that they communicate is that they know what it is like to understand the Bible and God, and what GOd can do, but obviously they don't because IF they did understand this, they would not have abandoned the faith.

You might want to ask her on what basis she thought that she was a Christian before. Many people know enough about Christianity to know the actual answers, and to be able to explain them from the Bible, but they still never repented, and never believed in Jesus Christ, and were never transformed.

Now, this person affirms that their solution to a spiritual perspective is one of selfishness. It works for her, her values are her own, and she does not worry about where other people are going to spend eternity.

Contrast that with the last chapter of Matthew where JEsus not only tells and teaches us to care about other, but to go and find other people to tell, about HIM.

THere is an absence of peace in her life (whether she will admit that or not). But if the Bible is a lie, that would BE the ONLY basis to disbelieve it (which is neither accurate nor possible).

But since the Bible is true, when prophecies continue to occur, what will she say then ?

Of course, there is always another Christ that will soon enough make his entry onto the world stage, and he only requires a Mark in the right hand or forehand and NO REPENTANCE.

Most Atheists are not truly committed to the search for answers or the search for truth. What they want are easy answers and comfort in their state of absence from God.

Her answer about a "Humanistic" approach is only half-true.

A humanistic approach asserts that "Man is the measure of all things". You can find more details about this in the documents Humanist Manifesto I and II (type that in on yahoo or google).

IT is a profoudly antiChrist theological system (which they deny that this is so - even though it is) and is designed to establish Man and himself/herself on the throne of ones' life INSTEAD of GOD.

It is these humanists who run the ACLU and Evolutionary Science courses. THey are the ones who want to erase Christianity from all sections of life and politics in the U.S.
(though they say that this is not true).

Humanists (as the Humanist manifesto I and II demonstrate) are not simply benign harmless people who go around nicely believing what they want. Their agenda is extremley agressive, and politically very active. They intentionally oppose legislation to help Christians at all possible opportunities.

[However - hopefully she will not end up actually being one of those people, but many of them who are "humanists" are very strongly anti-Christian. But they tone their approach down, when they are trying to either confuse or recruit others to their cause].



Seeker

[Milton]

Martha I would highly recommend you watch Kirk Cameron's program on TBN called The Way of the Master.
http://www.wayofthemaster.com

In it they show scenes where they talk to people on the streets. They use the 10 Commandments and ask people if they've ever lied, or stolen anything, used God's name in vain, looked at a man or woman with lust etc. You should see the look on the faces of the people when they realize that they're excuses are no good and they realize their need for Jesus.

God bless and most importantly pray the Lord would soften the person's heart that you're witnessing to and give you wisdom as to what to say. :):

I really like that program too, but if the person is an athiest, it won't do any good. It's all based on the idea that someone will judge you one day. If they reject the idea of God, they won't be too concerned with the 10 commandments.

[mbtcforJesus]

I really like that program too, but if the person is an athiest, it won't do any good. It's all based on the idea that someone will judge you one day. If they reject the idea of God, they won't be too concerned with the 10 commandments.

I know what you mean. Kirk Cameron says he was a devout atheist in this week's show. I'm sure there is some kind of nuggest he shares that can help witness to an athesit. :):

I'm so glad I started watching this show. The Lord has given me several ideas on how to witness to a few people He has brought into my mission field. :):

[Milton]

I guess I shouldn't say it "won't do any good." Any exposure to the Gospel is a good thing.....it's just a matter of explaining things in the right context.

[Pooch]

i don't claim to have all of the answers to everything (for example my being unsure of how the earth was created) but neither does ANY human on this earth past, present or future. and you can claim "well god knows everything", but again... if there were a god, "he/she/it" is not a person. so still... nobody here knows all the answers. so i don't feel bad!! i am totally ok with saying "i don't know" when i don't know something!

Tell her that's it's not important about creation, science, religon, cause/events, miracles, or anything spiritual. Then point out that there WAS someone once who knew the answers. He would've gladly shared the knowledge of the universe with us, but we killed Him. Don't ask her what she feels about God, ask her what she feels about Jesus Christ, the man. Focus on Christ, His mission, who He was and what He did. All else is not important. It is the beilef that Jesus Christ was who He said He was, and our commitment to follow Him that counts.
Does she deny that He was really alive? Does she think He was just a teacher? If Jesus wasn't who He said He was, then He was the most evil person on the planet. If He was, then...He was God. There is no in between.

An athiest can deny all they want, but it always comes down to one question: Jesus: "Who do you say that I am?"

The most important question the world has ever been asked.

Pooch

[chris_h]

I really like that program too, but if the person is an athiest, it won't do any good. It's all based on the idea that someone will judge you one day. If they reject the idea of God, they won't be too concerned with the 10 commandments.Not really, because you're circumnavigating the person's intellect and going instead for the conscience, the place of agreement with God's Law (Romans 2:15).

Monday night at 4pm Pacific, their show on TBN will be their episode that specifically addresses atheism. You also can legally watch/download it here (http://www.bigmouthsforchrist.com/Ray_Comforts_html/ray_comfort_wotm_7_index.html).

[Paul]

say i'm god. Lisa* obviously has free will to do what she wants, right? i'm god so i can see the future. i know for a fact that if i plant this tree in my front yard, and tell Lisa* she's forbidden to climb it because there will be serious consequences, that she will choose to climb it anyway and fall and become paralyzed when she's 4 years old. i plant the tree anyway and this exactly happens. Lisa* knows that i knew what was going to happen to her and could have prevented it (either by not planting the tree or intervening) but i didn't, because i wanted her to make her own decision and live with it. she can choose to still love me at this point, after all i raised her from a baby and have always been good to her and i warned her!!! or hate me for what >>i<< let happen to her. i feel she would be totally justified in hating me!!! what kind of a sick parent would let anything bad happen to their child - their flesh and blood, their heart!! - if they could knowingly prevent it by ANY means?!

You can’t force someone to love you. People need to have a choice and they need to exercise that choice by their own free will. How can there be a choice to follow or reject God when there is only the option to follow Him? With that thought in mind we can begin to understand the need for the Tree to be in Eden.

It’s not fair to compare the actions of this four year old to those of Adam and Eve for at least two reasons.

1) The four year old doesn’t have the mental capacity to understand the dangers or the consequences of her actions. Therefore the parent was at fault. Adam and Eve were fully grown adults that had the capacity to understand the consequences. God taught them right and wrong and they chose wrong. He is no more at fault for their actions than a parent whose adult child has been caught committing some crime. Free will means just that -- the freedom to do whatever you please.

2) The little girl was left paralyzed and had no hope of ever being healed. Despite Adam and Eve’s rebellion God promised to restore the broken relationship and heal their sin. He fixed what they had broken. He offered them grace.

[agentart]

coming from an atheist here, you're best bet here is to just agree to disagree.

she looks like she has put alot of thought into her decision, and nothing you say, no verse you quote, no book or TV show you can recommend is going to make her change, quite the opposite will probably be the outcome of any such "witnessing", as it will make her look at christians as "people who want everyone to think as they do" and will inspire nothing but ire.....

[NRA4Freedom]

In the first place, people who claim to be atheists are just plain liars. They are lying to themselves, and lying to anyone who will listen to them. Instilled in every one of our spirits is the knowledge that God exists. What we choose to do with that inward knowledge, to seek God or to deny what we truly know, is a choice we make. Those who have a heart for God will seek Him, and those who don't will seek something else instead. Those who seek, find that which they are seeking. In the second place, no one comes to God lest the Holy Spirit draws them, so your job, as a believer, is not to argue with her about her complaints or attempt to convince her of anything...because, simply put, you cannot. Like the old song says, man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest. All you can do is bear witness to the truth which you know in your heart. The believers testimony is as far as you can go with someone who wants desperately not to believe.

From the email you posted, it seems somewhat likely that this person is intentionally turning her back on God in the attempt to try to force God to show or prove Himself to her. It's like saying, "God, if you will do this or that in my life, then I will believe". Her issue is with God, not with you.

Go back and read Seeker42's post again...a whole lot of truth is posted there.

[Pooch]

In the first place, people who claim to be atheists are just plain liars. I wouldn't neccessarily call them liars, but maybe someone who follows the father of lies. Actually, there is no such thing as an athiest. Agnostic at best. For an athiest to claim there is no God, they would have to be Omnipresent and have traveled to every speck of the universe and every part of every 10th dimension. They can say they don't believe in God, but they can never say there is no God, without making themselves out to BE God. I cannot prove scientifically God exists any more than someone can prove He doesn't. Either way, it's faith, a hope in something unseen.

Pooch

[Jiggy37]

coming from an atheist here, you're best bet here is to just agree to disagree.

she looks like she has put alot of thought into her decision, and nothing you say, no verse you quote, no book or TV show you can recommend is going to make her change
Coming from an ex-agnostic here, I disagree.
Amend it to "nothing you say intellectually, no verse you quote intellectually, no intellectual or philosophical book or TV show you can recommend is going to make her change," though, and you've probably got something there.
Actually, there is no such thing as an athiest. Agnostic at best. For an athiest to claim there is no God, they would have to be Omnipresent and have traveled to every speck of the universe and every part of every 10th dimension. They can say they don't believe in God, but they can never say there is no God[...]
...honestly, you mean.
Just because it's illogical to claim to have enough proof to conclusively say that there is no God does not make a person a non-atheist if that person claims that there is no God.

[mbtcforJesus]

coming from an atheist here, you're best bet here is to just agree to disagree.

she looks like she has put alot of thought into her decision, and nothing you say, no verse you quote, no book or TV show you can recommend is going to make her change, quite the opposite will probably be the outcome of any such "witnessing", as it will make her look at christians as "people who want everyone to think as they do" and will inspire nothing but ire.....

With God all things are possible.

[mbtcforJesus]

Here is a link where you can download former "devout athesit" Kirk Cameron's conversion to Christianity.

http://www.worldmissions.com/people/detail/kirk_cameron.html

[billywhitebread]

you seriously want to know what to do?

absolutely nothing. Jesus has already done it all.


although you've received great advice, links and helpful tools here the ONLY thing you can do is pray for her....period. if she has the background she claims to have then the truth will burn in her heart. it goes back to the free will she doesn't comprehend....explain the opposite of free will to her...slavery....

tell her that you will lift her up in your prayers and that she is free to believe whatever she wishes to believe <free will> then look her dead square in the eyes with all the love you can muster and tell her, if this is truly how you believe then you had better make absolute sure that you're 100% right without exception....then smile and don't bring it up again. let her come to you....Jesus told the disciples if those they witness to don't receive the truth, then dust your feet off and leave them to their lives...

it seems we as christians want to "save" everybody. well we can't. only Jesus can save them. we are to live our lives that they would see HIS grace, mercy and redemtion in us. your life is your testimony, not your words or your arguments.

[Jiggy37]

Amend it to "nothing you say intellectually, no verse you quote intellectually, no intellectual or philosophical book or TV show you can recommend is going to make her change," though, and you've probably got something there.
Bah... too late to edit, but I might as well clarify. What I'm basically getting at is that no intellectual argument is going to lead a person to God--which makes some amount of sense, because if an intellectual argument could lead a person to God, why bother being born as a man to show us how to get to Him? I think He did so in part because He needed to do so to save us from ourselves, from our own vanities and selfishness, and from the foolishness of our human "wisdom."

[Xlcor]

A-theist: theos, Greek word for God, preceded by the negative particle a, literally, "no-God".

Let me put it this way: an atheist is an irrational person. Why? Because, from application of logic, it is impossible to prove a universal negative. To attempt to do so is an irrational thought-process. To claim atheism is irrational and illogical for those who make claims of great intellectual prowess.

[chris_h]

Bah... too late to edit, but I might as well clarify. What I'm basically getting at is that no intellectual argument is going to lead a person to God--which makes some amount of sense, because if an intellectual argument could lead a person to God, why bother being born as a man to show us how to get to Him? I think He did so in part because He needed to do so to save us from ourselves, from our own vanities and selfishness, and from the foolishness of our human "wisdom.":nod That's why you use a brief little argument, and then stay on track and go for the conscience.

Oh yeah, just a reminder: 7PM Eastern tonight on TBN, Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort's show will be doing their episode on atheism.

[BloodoftheLamb]

She has been exposed to the Gospel, God, and Jesus, she walked away for whatever reason...

Thankfully God does not walk away from us.......

He is waiting, hopefully she will return to the fold...

[architectlink]

invite her to see the Rock & the Rabbi and let scripture do the talking.

The holy spirit is moving!

[sandy111]

one thing they do is watch.....are you for real or a fake christian.
you can argue till you turn blue and get nowhere.
but telling a bit here and there when the opportunity comes and living a life
that is real is what helps. but then of course only the HS can show them the truth!

[Jiggy37]

[...]no intellectual argument is going to lead a person to God--which makes some amount of sense, because if an intellectual argument could lead a person to God, why bother being born as a man to show us how to get to Him? I think He did so in part because He needed to do so to save us from ourselves, from our own vanities and selfishness, and from the foolishness of our human "wisdom."
:doh Man, I was really tripping over my own words in this thread. What I meant was "how we could let Him save us" rather than "how to get to Him"--because we cannot "get to Him," but rather He gets to us when we ask Him to.