Where did *sin* orginate from??

[Gitana]

If Lucifer sinned by wanting to be higher than God, where did this rebellion come from?
I mean, we all have free will. There is good and evil, but where did the original evil come from?

Some have told me that God made the good and the bad parts of everything.
Sort of the Ying/Yang theory...
I mean, everything good comes from God. There's no sin in God, but did He create both "sides" so to speak so there could actually be a free will?

If you have free will then there must be two choices to make: either belief in God or rebellion against Him ( or non-belief or following other religions).

Any thoughts??

Love,
Gitana

[Patty T]

Isaiah 14:12-15 tells about the fall of Lucifer. He had a serious pride problem. Through deception, he also presented this sin to Eve.

Don't know if that really answers your question, but it's what crossed my mind.


Patty
:):

[Gitana]

I guess I wonder where "pride" came from since it is also a sin?

Love,
Gitana

[Hootmon]

There is good and evil, but where did the original evil come from? Evil is simply the absence of Good. It need not 'come from' anywhere.



Some have told me that God made the good and the bad parts of everything.
Sort of the Ying/Yang theory...
I mean, everything good comes from God. There's no sin in God, but did He create both "sides" so to speak so there could actually be a free will? God DID create 'Evil' in the sense that He made 'the absence of Good' possible. That doesnt mean that the possiblity of Evil MUST be excersized. Just that it CAN be.



If you have free will then there must be two choices to make: either belief in God or rebellion against Him ( or non-belief or following other religions). Both of those things 'miss the mark' (think Archery), and are therefore Sin...



I guess I wonder where "pride" came from since it is also a sin? Pride is 'internal'. Its your (usually inaccurate) opinion of yourself.


It may help if you consider 'Sin' to be a verb and not a noun. Its something you DO or dont DO. Not something you HAVE or dont HAVE.

[blitzkreig]

God does not "author" sin... but His permissive will certainly allows it to happen... after all God is Sovereign... no matter how much we try to convince ourselves we are are the ones who are sovereign ...

Isa 45:7-10
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(8) Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
(9) Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
(10) Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

[antitox]

I like Hootmon's answer that it is the absence of good. Or it can be viewed as one who turns their focus and priorities to self instead of outward toward others like God does. Selfishness causes one to "take from others" for the purposes of the self. In satan's extreme condition, he's like a black hole, wanting to suck the very life and substance from those around him.

[RonnieBee]

When God divided the Light from the Darkness, if you look at the Hebrew language you will see that the words dark and Light carry the connotations of Good and Evil. I believe Lucifer was tempted by his own pride, which came from within him out of the evil that was already present in the created darkness. But, instead of deciding to remain in the light under God's presence and protection, Lucifer decided he wanted to overthrow God and be God himself.

So, the evil was already there, but it was dormant within the darkness, until Lucifer allowed it to manifest itself in his own preverted thinking. He wasn't very smart, if he had been, he would have realized that the Immortal God, who is the one and only immortal, cannot be defeated, Why? Because God has always existed without beginning or end. God IS the Alpha & Omega, the beginning and end of everything.

No one else, can become immortal, nor can the immortal God cease to exist, if he did, no one would be around to be aware of it, because God is the only Savior. The word Savior also means, "Life sustainer".

The mankind spirit is created by God, and lives in the time created by God. The Angels are mankind spirits also, they are just a higher form of the earthbound human spirit. That's why God has the power to grant a mankind spirit eternal life, because he creates and sustains life. If Lucifer had considered this correctly, he would have known that it would be futile to attempt to overthrow God .

[Frank Fenton]

Great thoughts guys, particularly Hoot and Blitz.
Re the scripture

Isa 45:7-10
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(8) Drop down, ye heavens,...
I think this refers to the concept of "destruction" as in say the tribulation period, rather than the idea we are talking about here of "evil" or "wickedness".

The link at the bottom of this post gives the reference for the Hebrew word rendered "evil" in this verse. There is no conclusive evidence from its application one way or the other. It can be used to denote
1)bad, evil
OR
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
I don't think we should assume that God created "wickedness" from this one verse, but should look for other scriptures to give some direction.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/7/1093435379-9687.html

[joy4Him2day]

God DID create 'Evil' in the sense that He made 'the absence of Good' possible. That doesnt mean that the possiblity of Evil MUST be excersized. Just that it CAN be.


I agree with this statement.
I tend to think that any "turning" from God, is sin. Free will makes sin possible. Anytime we chose our will over God's, we are rebelling, and sin.
The moment satan decided he would do his own thing-----
The moment Eve decided to do what she wanted regardless of God's instruction......and Adam.......there was sin.....
It's my way over God's way......

[matheteou]

When God divided the Light from the Darkness, if you look at the Hebrew language you will see that the words dark and Light carry the connotations of Good and Evil. I believe Lucifer was tempted by his own pride, which came from within him out of the evil that was already present in the created darkness. But, instead of deciding to remain in the light under God's presence and protection, Lucifer decided he wanted to overthrow God and be God himself.

So, the evil was already there, but it was dormant within the darkness, until Lucifer allowed it to manifest itself in his own preverted thinking. He wasn't very smart, if he had been, he would have realized that the Immortal God, who is the one and only immortal, cannot be defeated, Why? Because God has always existed without beginning or end. God IS the Alpha & Omega, the beginning and end of everything.

No one else, can become immortal, nor can the immortal God cease to exist, if he did, no one would be around to be aware of it, because God is the only Savior. The word Savior also means, "Life sustainer".

The mankind spirit is created by God, and lives in the time created by God. The Angels are mankind spirits also, they are just a higher form of the earthbound human spirit. That's why God has the power to grant a mankind spirit eternal life, because he creates and sustains life. If Lucifer had considered this correctly, he would have known that it would be futile to attempt to overthrow God .
I'd like to see your scripture reference for that one.

[Gitana]

Gen2:9
And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen:3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

I think that the first verse shows there was already good and evil to know about before Adam and Eve were created. So it's obvious it was already in existence.

Also, God made everything there is, including the angels. So, since He made them and a 1/3 of them rebelled with Lucifer...then it seems like the characteristics of the angels already had those things in them. The ability to choose good or evil.
If God made all the characterisitics of them.???
Or do you think the characteristics "evolved" and changed as time went on??

Just some thoughts.

Love,
Gitana

[Hootmon]

I think that the first verse shows there was already good and evil to know about before Adam and Eve were created. So it's obvious it was already in existence. I think that much is obvious as Lucifer's rebellion had presumably already occured before the events in Gen 2.



Also, God made everything there is, including the angels. So, since He made them and a 1/3 of them rebelled with Lucifer...then it seems like the characteristics of the angels already had those things in them. The ability to choose good or evil. That would be a definition of 'freewill'. The ability to obey or rebel.



If God made all the characterisitics of them.???
Or do you think the characteristics "evolved" and changed as time went on?? 'Freewill' is an aspect of all thinking creatures. Its up to you what you do with it.

[blitzkreig]

'Freewill' is an aspect of all thinking creatures. Its up to you what you do with it. Or maybe stated another way... an aspect of all creatures is they think they have "freewill"... :heh

With summer holiday bills coming in just now I know if I had my way I likely would have been born into a family which had a bit more money :doh

[Shamgar]

Evil is simply the absence of Good. It need not 'come from' anywhere.
Right on. I think Augustine was the first Christian to figure that one out (that we know of). As much as I despise Augustine's replacement theology and amillennialism, the guy had some good ideas now and then.

[Hootmon]

Or maybe stated another way... an aspect of all creatures is they think they have "freewill"... :heh

With summer holiday bills coming in just now I know if I had my way I likely would have been born into a family which had a bit more money :doh Dont make me :caked you, Blitz... :mad

When I use the term 'freewill', it is always within the constraints of what is 'possible'. Controlling the circumstances of your birth isnt an example of that.

[blitzkreig]

When I use the term 'freewill', it is always within the constraints of what is 'possible'. Controlling the circumstances of your birth isnt an example of that."Let a man set his heart only on doing the will of God and he is instantly free. No one can hinder him."---A.W. Tozer

[Hootmon]

"Let a man set his heart only on doing the will of God and he is instantly free. No one can hinder him."---A.W. Tozer I take it you agree with me then. :thumb

[blitzkreig]

God often takes a course for accomplishing His purposes directly contrary to what our narrow views would prescribe. He brings a death upon our feelings, wishes, and prospects when He is about to give us the desire of our hearts. ---John Newton

[Average Joey]

We also must remember what Joseph said:

Genesis 50:19
And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God?
50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

Also that before the beginning it was ordained what God would do:

2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It is all about Him,Jesus Christ.Even before time began.

[cenimo]

This is tough. Calvinists would tell you no fall, no offering the apple to Eve, etc...

[RonnieBee]

I'd like to see your scripture reference for that one.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[1] with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[1]Greek fellow bondservant

Revelation 22:9
but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[1] with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Here the angel tells John, that he is a fellow bond servant the same a he is. To me this shows a kindred spirit with mankind.

Also there are two accounts of mankinds creation. Genesis one, where man is created in Gods image.

Genesis 1,26-27 ESV-Bible-Online
26 Then God said, “Let us make man [8] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And Genesis two, where man is formed from the dust of the Earth.

Genesis 2:5-7
5 When no bush of the field [1] was yet in the land [2] and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 6 and a mist [3] was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

I believe the first account is the heavenly mankind spirits, the angels and servants of God, in his image, and the second is the earthy type mankind spirit from the earthly flesh.

Jesus said"

Luke 20:34-36
34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons [7] of the resurrection.

The angels are also called Sons of God in:

Genesis 6:1-2
6:1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

[Average Joey]

This is tough. Calvinists would tell you no fall, no offering the apple to Eve, etc...

No offense but you seem to not know much about calvinism.It`s just one of the common misconceptions of the doctrine of grace.