What would Jesus do?

[Love"n"Christ]

I have a question about something that happened yesterday and would like your opinion on it. On my way to work I was rear ended by a gal. Thank the Lord she and I are ok. The damage on my rear bumper is very, very little. Almost unnoticeable, but never the less there is some damage. The lady then told me to get an estimate and if it was less than $1000 she would cut me a check and call it a day. I understand she doesn't want me to call her insurance and put in a claim, so I agreed to take that route.

Well, I got an estimate at one auto body shop and they quoted $900 to just replace the bumper all together. Here is where I need your opinion. Since the damage is very little (and I could live with it since my car has 130,000 miles on it), I could really use those $900 for other things like get new breaks, pay off a credit card, take my wife out to dinner, you understand. Well, would that be wrong to do? I mean, I'm not exactly using the money to fix the bumper which is the reason she's giving me the money. I don't know if it's beeing dishonest to do this.

What do you think?

[cindyw]

I don't really think that is an "ethical" decision. She damaged your car, lessening it's value, she should pay for that. If/when you decide to have it fixed is up to you. You do need to remember: if you use the money in the way you want now, you will be losing out later on when you go to sell/trade in your vehicle---if you don't fix the bumper at a later time. The damage will lessen the amount you receive. However, I think brakes and paying of a credit card are things that are necessary----more than doing something cosmetic, which can wait for later...........

[Hootmon]

Its also worth mention that by agreeing to take care of this privately you are saving HER money as well.

By not going the insurance route, you are not compelled to use the money solely for the repair.

Id say the money is yours to spend as you will, though you may want to give 10% to charity.

[Love"n"Christ]

Well, by her giving me a check, she would be paying for it. My car has 130,000 miles on it. I've gotten it appraised already and I'd be luck if I got 2,000 for that car. I don't want to put any money into it if I don't have to. Besides, I'll probably end up giving it to my brother.

I don't know. We'll see. She just might decide to call her insurance and take care of it that way....

[tennismenace]

I have a question about something that happened yesterday and would like your opinion on it. On my way to work I was rear ended by a gal. Thank the Lord she and I are ok. The damage on my rear bumper is very, very little. Almost unnoticeable, but never the less there is some damage. The lady then told me to get an estimate and if it was less than $1000 she would cut me a check and call it a day. I understand she doesn't want me to call her insurance and put in a claim, so I agreed to take that route.

Well, I got an estimate at one auto body shop and they quoted $900 to just replace the bumper all together. Here is where I need your opinion. Since the damage is very little (and I could live with it since my car has 130,000 miles on it), I could really use those $900 for other things like get new breaks, pay off a credit card, take my wife out to dinner, you understand. Well, would that be wrong to do? I mean, I'm not exactly using the money to fix the bumper which is the reason she's giving me the money. I don't know if it's beeing dishonest to do this.

What do you think?

Absolutely not! Have a great dinner with the Mrs.

[blitzkreig]

Tell her as you are contemplating not getting the car fixed so you will accept a cash settlement of $750.

Do up some paperwork for both your protection. A simple outline describing the agreement (complete with estimate amount etc.) stating "paid in full for all damages" and both of you sign it... you can keep a photocopy.

Then buy one of those Jesus fish and put it on the damage... just in-case she "runs into you again"... (so to speak :doh)... she will know you are a Christian.

[LadySharon]

I'm sorry ... you all prob won't like the answer... but I'm putting myself in the womans position here.

1. unless you photo it and show me... from your discription the damnage doesn't seem worth it... that is it sounded like there are a few dents and scratchs that woudn't be noticiable unless you walked up to the car. Stupid car mechs always want to replace the whole bumper and charge outragous prices. You should be able to pop the dents and fix it for much much less. Sience the car isn't worth much I'd say live with it.

2. If I were the lady I'd litteraly say... ok now which auto body are you getting it fixed at... and ... PAY THE SHOP!!!!!
I am not kidding I would be SOOOOO PISSED OFF if anyone pulled that with me. If I broke something of someone's or hit someone's car and dented it I would want to pay for THAT ITEM not for the person to go out and have fun or pay off their credit card bills!!! that is SO WRONG and I'm sorry that I apperently disagree with everyone else. :(:

and... well I'd NEVER take the "settlement" of $750... bcause I wouldn't even want to pay 100.

But then again... I'd prob go through insurance anyway and own up to my mistake to begin with. <shrug>

- Sharon

[antitox]

This is damage to your vehicle. If an insurance co. wrote you a check, you'd still have the money to use as you please. This is a civil liability issue. You don't have to do anything but receive the payment and go your way. This is not about anything other than a fender bender, and if it is agreed between you to settle personally, then present the estimate and she can pay it. The Old Testament laws are littered with liability scenarios because of losses incurred on others. That is evidence of proper civil behavior and equity that God intends for us to have.

[cindyw]

I am not kidding I would be SOOOOO PISSED OFF if anyone pulled that with me. If I broke something of someone's or hit someone's car and dented it I would want to pay for THAT ITEM not for the person to go out and have fun or pay off their credit card bills!!! that is SO WRONG and I'm sorry that I apperently disagree with everyone else. :(:


IMHO, whether they pay for the fix or not NOW, they suffered loss and that loss will be felt if they go to sell it with the damage to the rear end. The payment is going for the loss of property. I think it is the duty of a person responsible for damage to pay the reasonable price of the damage. If I knew someone needed brakes, I would rather have them get theirs fixed(a safety issue), then demand they fix the bumper (a cosmetic issue).........but that's just me. Personally, I have been through a rear end and let the woman go, so I do believe in eating sometimes. I didn't see too much damage at the time, but underneath the bumper and behind the bumper there was damage my husband found and that damage "grew" as I drove the van. DH was a little mad at me for not filing a report and getting her info because the damage was alot more than I knew, but......... I felt bad cause she had a carfull of screaming kids and she got distracted............. :freaked I know exactly how that is........... :nod

[elredcrow]

Since I work in the insurance biz... I can tell you that this stuff happens all the time.

You suffered a loss. The body shop gave you an estimate of the repair and what your actual loss amount is. The lady says she will pay you for your loss without involving the insurance company. Doesn't matter what you do with the money. There is no lienholder involved. Even if she did get her insurance company involved, you are not obligated to have your car fixed. There is no law that says you have to fix your car as long as it is roadworthy and passes state inspection. If it's worth only a couple of thousand to begin with, why put $ on it which will not increase its value?

Either tell the lady that "hey, it was an accident... my car's not really hurt all that bad and it's still roadworthy...God was watching over us and no one was hurt.. have a great day and forget about it" She will be astounded at your act of Christian love.

Or you could ask her to donate the money to your church or favorite charity.

Or you could take the money, pay your bills, go out on the town and give some to your church. It wouldn't be considered a tithe because it is not really income to you.

Whatever you decide to do here, there is no right or wrong. It's up to you.

Uh... if you take the money... I charge 20% commission! (just kiddin) :lol

[elredcrow]

I'm sorry ... you all prob won't like the answer... but I'm putting myself in the womans position here.

1. unless you photo it and show me... from your discription the damnage doesn't seem worth it... that is it sounded like there are a few dents and scratchs that woudn't be noticiable unless you walked up to the car. Stupid car mechs always want to replace the whole bumper and charge outragous prices. You should be able to pop the dents and fix it for much much less. Sience the car isn't worth much I'd say live with it.

2. If I were the lady I'd litteraly say... ok now which auto body are you getting it fixed at... and ... PAY THE SHOP!!!!!
I am not kidding I would be SOOOOO PISSED OFF if anyone pulled that with me. If I broke something of someone's or hit someone's car and dented it I would want to pay for THAT ITEM not for the person to go out and have fun or pay off their credit card bills!!! that is SO WRONG and I'm sorry that I apperently disagree with everyone else. :(:

and... well I'd NEVER take the "settlement" of $750... bcause I wouldn't even want to pay 100.

But then again... I'd prob go through insurance anyway and own up to my mistake to begin with. <shrug>

- Sharon

:lol Sharon! if you went through the insurance company, they would end up paying more than the actual damages because of their expense in processing the claim, paying the adjuster, etc. And the injured party would still be able to do whatever they want to with the money. They are being reimbursed for the loss to them. The lady is responsible for the damage regardless of whether the damage is to a 'clunker' or a brand new vehicle. It's not up to her to decide what the person she injured is to do with the $. If they choose to drive around in a damaged vehicle, what is it to her? She has taken care of her responsibility. Why be mad if they use the $ for something that is more important to them? It's still the same amount.

I know there is a devotional in this somewhere....

[Love"n"Christ]

I can see where Lady Sharon might not like the answers from most people, but the fact of the matter is that my car was damaged during this incident, right? Ok. If we went through her insurance her premium will go up and that accident will be on her record for some time. I got a second estimate yesterday at another body shop down the street and they said $825, which is in the same ball park. I faxed this to her and then told her that she could give me $700 and call it even. She said she hadn't really made up her mind as far as calling her insurance or not, that she would let me know this morning (8/25/04) no later than tonight.

I dissagree with Lady Sharon about "Stupid car mechs always want to replace the whole bumper and charge outragous prices." Non of the two autobody shops even suggested fixing it by repainting the bumper, which it's more damage than just chiped paint. The fact of the matter is that when I woke up yesterday morning my car didn't have that damage, and now it does because of what happend. I realize now that if I keep that money and get new brakes (which I really, really need right now) is better than getting a new bumper.

Thanks for your opinions though, it helped.

[ja94Jesus]

LoveinChrist: How much damage was little damage? Anyway to post a pic for us? If the damage was very little & you don't plan on fixing the bumber anyway, why not just give a break to the lady? IMO, this would be WWJD.

[blitzkreig]

Since I work in the insurance biz... I can tell you that this stuff happens all the time.Is it not true that if you take a cash settlement from the Insurance company most policies will reduce the $$$ by some (smaller) percentage than they would have funded the repair shop?

[blitzkreig]

If I were the lady I'd litteraly say... ok now which auto body are you getting it fixed at... and ... PAY THE SHOP!!!!! and that would be a legitimate request... that or a reduced "cash" settlement.

I am not kidding I would be SOOOOO PISSED OFF if anyone pulled that with me. I would suggest an anger management class. A small dent where no one is injured is reason for prayers of thanks to God. Who cares about a few bucks? :faint

[yieldedandstill]

Whether she pays, or her insurance pays - use the money as you see fit. Since your car is old, and the damage doesn't really hurt the value, and a repair won't increase the value, I would seriously consider just lettin' it go. Pray about it. Don't let the $$ cloud your thinking.

[Love"n"Christ]

Blitzcraig, I agree with you. I have an update on all this too. The lady decided to go through her insurance, so that means that they'll pay me the lesser amount of the two quotes I got ($825) which is $125 more that the settlement I was willing to go with by her just giving me $700. I actually talked to her insurance agent and she told me they would send the check out to me. So either way, I'm keeping that money. She should of taken the deal given me $700 and the accident wouldn't have been on her record at all. I'm convinced that I'm doing the right thing in spending that money. I mean, why would I care in what the person I hit did with the money? I don't. As long as I pay what I owe, cause after all she did HIT ME, I think justice is done.

[Pooch]

Obviously it's too late, but my input would have been to just let it go.
If the car's only worth 2k and it's hardly noticable, I would've have just said to her 'Don't worry about it, I forgive you." I say this because I have done it myself, and felt a whole lot better in the morning.

Even if you do get the money, if you don't get it fixed, you should give her the money back. Your question was what would Jesus do. Well, what did He do? Did He ask you to pay for your sins, since you sinned? Nope. He said "Don't worry about it, I forgive you".

Pooch

[LadySharon]

Sorry if I came accross *too* upset. :p

Injurys would be a seperate issue... I do agree with thanking God for the lack of injurys.

The general principal is you would be lieing if you used the money for something else... unless you told her that.

oh and... even though I know insurance rates would go up it's still the right thing to do to report it if there is damange/injury. (In fact I think if there is injury you must report to the police to... ? anyone know?)

And yes I was thinking what pooch was when I replyed... I was just shocked at so many people essentialy would be decetful to this lady ... which is again what I belive it would be to take the money that *she* belives would be for one thing and useing it for something else.

oh and I didn't know that about insurance companies. ... when I had my windsheild replaced do to damage... I had to go through one of the recommended shops of my insurance company and they payed the shop directly. <shrug>

- Sharon

[cindyw]

I was just shocked at so many people essentialy would be decetful to this lady ... which is again what I belive it would be to take the money that *she* belives would be for one thing and useing it for something else.

NO, I don't believe any of us who responded would be "deceitful" about it. Being upfront about what you are going to do will not deter the insurance company from paying for the damage their customer did to the vehicle. The fact remains that there was damage to personal property caused by the woman who hit him. When we cause damage to someone else's property, we should be willing to pay for the amount of the damage---within reason. Like I said before, looking at this from a Christian standpoint----the shoe on the other foot...........if I was the woman paying for the damage I caused, I would rather know someone's brakes, which could cause someone injury, were fixed rather than taking care of a bumper to satisfy me.........

[SapphireGrl]

Obviously it's too late, but my input would have been to just let it go.
If the car's only worth 2k and it's hardly noticable, I would've have just said to her 'Don't worry about it, I forgive you." I say this because I have done it myself, and felt a whole lot better in the morning.

Even if you do get the money, if you don't get it fixed, you should give her the money back. Your question was what would Jesus do. Well, what did He do? Did He ask you to pay for your sins, since you sinned? Nope. He said "Don't worry about it, I forgive you". I vehemently disagree. You can forgive someone and still let them make amends for the destruction. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

How do you know that this isn't a blessing from God that is enabling Love to repair his breaks and pay off some debt? This woman hit his car and caused $850 worth of damage to it, therefore she should make restitution. Forgiveness hasn't got a thing to do with it.

[SapphireGrl]

I was just shocked at so many people essentialy would be decetful to this lady ... which is again what I belive it would be to take the money that *she* belives would be for one thing and useing it for something else. It's not deceitful at all. She caused damage to Love's car, therefore she owes him restitution for the damage. What he does with the money she owes him is absolutely none of her business and has nothing to do with her. She still owes him restitution regardless of his choosing to have his car repaired or not.

[Pooch]

Based on the osts here, I knew most would disagree with me, but I was just saying wat I would do, and what I believe Jesus would have done.
It's just a vehicle, a piece of metal. Jesus said:

Luke 6:30-36
Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

I see no justification in demanding restitution in this case. You can hypothosis on all kins of scenarios about "what if the lady..." but it doesn't matter what the one inflicting personal/emotional/material damage might be thinking. How we respond is what pleases God. We are a 'sue' nation. Always demanding what is 'ours'. Forgiveness has EVERYTHING to do with it. Be legalistic all you want, but I know God favors those who are merciful, more than those who demnds to be repaid for being wronged. If you disagree with the above verse, fine, but scripture shows what Jesus would do.

How do you know that this isn't a blessing from God that is enabling Love to repair his breaks and pay off some debt?
???? I'm sure everyone has heard this before but:

Matt 18:21-35
Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

Forgiveness means so so much more than simply "You hurt my feelings"
Forgiveness applies to every aspect of our lives, whether someone murders our family, steals ours belongings, covets our possessions, smashes our car etc.

When they cast lots for Jesus' clothes while He was on the cross dying for me, I'm pretty sure He didn't look down and say "Hey you, those are mine, so give my mother Mary 10 denario for them". When He was struck in the face for no reason, He didn't say "I'm suing you, cause you hurt me emotionally for know reason". If you don't see this, I am sorry, but this is what I beliee in my heart. Most people don't agree with me, I try to stay out of the world and really don't care what the lawyers or insurance adjusters think. For some reason, I think they will be out of a job in heaven.

Pooch

[Love"n"Christ]

I thank all that have taken the time to respond to my question. I didn't expect everyone to agree, or to tell me unanimously what should be done. Everyone has an opinion on the matter. I too believe that it's a blessing. I need that money to pay bills, get those breaks put in and get my little girl a nice little outfit and babies-r-us...;). But seriously, I think since damage was done to my car and I decide to live with it, it should be up to me on what to do with that money. So what if my car has 130,000 miles on it, it's a 2000 VW Jetta, and it's not it bad shape, and after all, it the car I use to take me to and from work. That's why we buy insurance, to pay for damages like these. If the lady was in bad shape (finanically) and she told me "sir, I don't have any money, I don't have insurance and I have 3 little mouths to feed" Of course I would let it slide, but this lady was more than willing to pay for the damages. I think I'm doing the right thing to take that money and put it to other use. It's not lying to the woman, I think she could care less what I do with the money, as long as she payed what she owes it's out of her hands. I understand that people say that Jesus would let it slide. I'm sure he would, matter of fact, I know he would, but I think this might serve two purposes here.

1. I get some money I need for my breaks.

2. Next time, she'll pay more attention to her driving.

[blitzkreig]

Based on the osts here, I knew most would disagree with me, but I was just saying wat I would do...Hey I respect that. I think you are wrong but I still respect it. If my wife was in the position she would most likely have given the guy a couple hundred because she would have blamed herself for getting in the way :lol

And I wouldn't have her any other way.

The Lord put the two of us together so that we would "average out"... I'm sure of it :B:

I (actually my daughter) was in the position of the person in the wrong in a traffic accident just last month. Same kind of scenario.

The gent was a mid-aged Pakistani fellow and my daughter is 19 years old going on 13. :twitch

His car was an '89 Pontiac and my daughter was in our family van. There was minimal damage. His car was held together by the rust on the body. There was a small dint as big as your thumb on his car... my van had "rust damage" only :pound

The vehicles were still vibrating from the collision I'm sure, when he bounded out of his car and asked my daughter for $1,500 cash to forget it. My daughter phoned me. I said to take it to the body-shop and get a price. They immediately took it to a body-shop in the area... and the estimate came to $1,000.

My wife joined my daughter by that time (I was in and out of meetings at work) and she phoned me to tell me the news. I told her what to say and do. She did (all-be-it out of character for her).

We offered the gentleman that we would pay the body-shop on the spot $1,000 to have the repair done or if he wanted we would give him $750 dollars. He asked "cash". We agreed "folding green". He said sure. With a twinkle in his eye.

He was as happy as can be. As someone from that region of the world he loved the exchange in barter. I'm sure he has a story to tell all of his friends... how he got $750 dollars and he got to keep his rusty car too. I couldn't care less what he does with the money. I hope the money helps him in some way.

I was happy as the accident won't be put on my insurance and won't put my insurance bill up maybe $1,000 dollars per year for 5 or 6 years.

My wife was marginally OK ... because she had to do the "dirty work"... but as the guy was so happy she went down with it with limited grumbling that evening ;): .

My daughter was miffed because I made her pay the $750 as a lesson. As she has a fixed amount of money available to her for the next year of University I know I will end up having to cover expenses for her that that $750 would have covered if she would have retained the $$$ but that's what dad's are for...

:clap

[Love"n"Christ]

Yup, it's the way to do it.

[SapphireGrl]

I see no justification in demanding restitution in this case. You can hypothosis on all kins of scenarios about "what if the lady..." but it doesn't matter what the one inflicting personal/emotional/material damage might be thinking. How we respond is what pleases God. We are a 'sue' nation. Always demanding what is 'ours'. Forgiveness has EVERYTHING to do with it. Be legalistic all you want, but I know God favors those who are merciful, more than those who demnds to be repaid for being wronged. If you disagree with the above verse, fine, but scripture shows what Jesus would do.You need to watch who you're calling legalistic, Pooch. Just because we don't agree with you does not mean we're being legalistic or without mercy.

The fact remains that forgiveness and being merciful does not have anything to do with this scenario and neither does this being a sue-happy nation. Love never said a single thing about suing anyone and neither did any of the other posters. The woman hit Love's car. He forgave her. She still owes restitution for the damages caused to his car. Just because you forgive someone for damaging something doesn't mean that they don't owe you restitution for the damage they've caused to your property. Why that's so difficult to understand, I don't know.

[mochamom]

Jesus didn't drive a car...:confused





Sorry...tiptoeing back to AG now...

[PaulStGermain]

It happened one day to me, when I rearended someone. They looked at there car a lil paint damage, I said I was very sorry and she let it go. So the next time I got rearended by some lady (a year later or so) she messed my bumper up bad, car was worth round 3000. I let her go, she was surprised but why do something like that when it could happen to you the same way. Let it go... material possessions mean nothing anyhow. Though Jesus never drove a car it's what he would do, Forgive... :D:

[onsolidrock]

I have a question about something that happened yesterday and would like your opinion on it. On my way to work I was rear ended by a gal. Thank the Lord she and I are ok. The damage on my rear bumper is very, very little. Almost unnoticeable, but never the less there is some damage. The lady then told me to get an estimate and if it was less than $1000 she would cut me a check and call it a day. I understand she doesn't want me to call her insurance and put in a claim, so I agreed to take that route.

Well, I got an estimate at one auto body shop and they quoted $900 to just replace the bumper all together. Here is where I need your opinion. Since the damage is very little (and I could live with it since my car has 130,000 miles on it), I could really use those $900 for other things like get new breaks, pay off a credit card, take my wife out to dinner, you understand. Well, would that be wrong to do? I mean, I'm not exactly using the money to fix the bumper which is the reason she's giving me the money. I don't know if it's beeing dishonest to do this.

What do you think?

It may not be dishonest to use the money for other things. But, the proper response would have been to tell her to forget it, since you are not planning to replace the bumper anyway. Your idea of using the money for other things seems a little selfish to me.

Since her insurance is going to pay you, an alternative might be to find a used bumper from a junkyard to replace yours which would be cheaper and then you could use the rest of the money with a clear conscience.

[SapphireGrl]

It happened one day to me, when I rearended someone. They looked at there car a lil paint damage, I said I was very sorry and she let it go. So the next time I got rearended by some lady (a year later or so) she messed my bumper up bad, car was worth round 3000. I let her go, she was surprised but why do something like that when it could happen to you the same way. Let it go... material possessions mean nothing anyhow. Though Jesus never drove a car it's what he would do, Forgive... :D:Who said Love didn't forive her? From the sound of his posts, he's not carrying a grudge. He's not mad and wishing ill on her. He's forgived her and moved on. However, she still owes him payment for damage to his car. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that forgiveness includes waving restitution for harm done to you or your property. If someone ran over you with their car and your medical bills were around $100,000, I doubt that in the process of forgiving the person you would also decide to wave their responsibilities for the cost of your medical care and absorb the $100,000 bill yourself. You can forgive someone, yet still accept restitution for the damages caused to you or your property.

[SapphireGrl]

It may not be dishonest to use the money for other things. But, the proper response would have been to tell her to forget it, since you are not planning to replace the bumper anyway. Your idea of using the money for other things seems a little selfish to me.What is selfish about repairing his breaks, which he said his car really needs right now, and paying off credit card debt instead of repairing a fender?

[Pooch]

You need to watch who you're calling legalistic, Pooch. Just because we don't agree with you does not mean we're being legalistic or without mercy.
Sapphiregirl, I really don't remember calling you or anyone legalistic. I simply said that people in general can if they want.

Just because you forgive someone for damaging something doesn't mean that they don't owe you restitution for the damage they've caused to your property. Why that's so difficult to understand, I don't know.
Sorry, the original questions was "what would Jesus do" and I think that the original OP acknowledged the answer:

I understand that people say that Jesus would let it slide. I'm sure he would, matter of fact, I know he would, but I think this might serve two purposes here. Therefore, the question was answered. What you personally would do is between you and God, not between you and I. I just don't want people to believe that Jesus would demand payment, because the scripture doesn't support that answer. If you have scripture supporting that Jesus would demand payment, please share.

Forgiveness from God's view is not remembering. How can you forgive someone over something and require anything back? Because if you do, you never forgot the incident; ergo, you only partly forgave. If you have trouble forgiving someone over an accident, how could you forgive someone who does it on purpose? "If someone steals your cloak, give them your tunic also", not "If someone steals your cloak, ask for the cost of it (since it was yours and it cost money), give them your tunic (after all, it was 2000 dollars), and require payment for it also."

That being said, everyone is convicted in thier hearts in thier own way. You have yours, I have mine.

Pooch

[Pooch]

As a side note:
If someone ran over you with their car and your medical bills were around $100,000, I doubt that in the process of forgiving the person you would also decide to wave their responsibilities for the cost of your medical care and absorb the $100,000 bill yourself.

From my standpoint, if they were truly sorry, I would not require anything from them. What's this difference between $10.00, $100,000.00, and $1,000,000.00? Absolutely nothing from God's perspective. I know for a fact that God will provide for whatever the cost (He has for 39 years, so why should I doubt His track record?), and use the incident for His glory if I but trust in Him. Even if I had to declare bankruptcy, God gets the glory because the guy who ran over me would know that my actions would have to have come from God. The world would never do it. So I'd die in poverty, but have a crown in heaven, which to me is far better. God's insurance plan is better than anything AllState, Gieko, or State Farm can offer.

Pooch

[Knight Errant]

As a matter of legal liability, always inform your insurance company of any damage or accidents that happen to your car. Something may yet turn up that will not be covered if you have not reported it. I believe that this is a requirement of most policies, and is the law in most states.

Also, this must have happened before, and may happen again, if she is so savy and experienced about not reporting her accidents. You will be protecting her future victims if you report her now.

And when her insurance company pays up, you can spend it as you wish. There is no legal or ethical requirement that you use the money to fix your car. There is just a requirement that her company compensate you for the damage she caused.

[Knight Errant]

As a side note:


From my standpoint, if they were truly sorry, I would not require anything from them. What's this difference between $10.00, $100,000.00, and $1,000,000.00? Absolutely nothing from God's perspective. I know for a fact that God will provide for whatever the cost (He has for 39 years, so why should I doubt His track record?), and use the incident for His glory if I but trust in Him.

Pooch


And what if God's preferred method of providing for your needs in this instance is to use the other person's insurance company? We can't tell him how to do His job, He knows best. Perhpas it's His idea to make the other person accountable for their acts and take responsibility, and you are interferring in the lesson He is trying to teach them.

And since I am not Deanna Troi to read people's emotions, I can't tell who is really really sorry and who just puts on a good act. Besides, if they are really sorry, they will want to make restitution for the damage they cause. Otherwise, they are only sorry that they got caught.

[Pooch]

Besides, if they are really sorry, they will want to make restitution for the damage they cause. Otherwise, they are only sorry that they got caught.
Agreed.

The difference as I see it is this : Do we have the right to expect or demand payment?
I never said I would not accept thier restitution, only that I would not require or expect it. It is not wrong to accept restitution for damages, it is the 'reason' why we accept it that is troublesome.

And when her insurance company pays up, you can spend it as you wish. Interesting.

Pooch

[blitzkreig]

As a matter of legal liability, always inform your insurance company of any damage or accidents that happen to your car. Something may yet turn up that will not be covered if you have not reported it. I believe that this is a requirement of most policies, and is the law in most states.ahhhh..... do be careful.

In my jurisdiction, if your insurance company "knows" of any accident .... whether a claim is processed through the insurance company or not... they may increase your premiums. Even if you are not at "fault".

:doh

[Sakrysta]

Okay, someone clear this up for me. When you have an insurance policy, they keep a record of how many accidents you've had. If you have an accident and you don't report it to your insurance company, how is that ethical? I know it makes your premiums go up, and that really stinks, especially when the accidents are not your fault (bitter experience talking here), but still, how is that being honest in your dealings if you don't report an accident to your insurance company?

I don't see any problem with using the money how you see fit. I just don't understand not going through your insurance company. That's what they're there for. That's why you pay premiums. If you allow the person at fault to settle outside their insurance, isn't that effectively cheating their insurance company?

I'm still fairly new to this car insurance thing, so maybe I have this wrong, and someone can explain it to me. :)

[SapphireGrl]

Forgiveness from God's view is not remembering. How can you forgive someone over something and require anything back? Because if you do, you never forgot the incident; ergo, you only partly forgave. Alright then, so let's run with that, the forgiving is forgetting. We have several people on this message board that have posted throughout the years about being sexually abused or their children being sexually abused by someone in their families. Many of them have forgiven the offenders, yet still refuse to be around the person and refuse to allow their children around the person because they haven't forgotten what that person did to them or their child.

Are these women not fully forgiving the perpetrators since they haven't forgotten the abuse and refuse to embrace the person that molested them or their children?

[SapphireGrl]

The difference as I see it is this : Do we have the right to expect or demand payment?
I never said I would not accept thier restitution, only that I would not require or expect it. It is not wrong to accept restitution for damages, it is the 'reason' why we accept it that is troublesome.You said earlier that Jesus would not accept restitution so why would you accept it if it were offered to you?

Love wasn't demanding restitution, it was offered. He accepted it and plans to get his breaks repaired and pay off some debt, yet in your earlier posts you seem to believe it's wrong. So what is the reason in this situation that you find troublesome?

[SapphireGrl]

As a side note:
If someone ran over you with their car and your medical bills were around $100,000, I doubt that in the process of forgiving the person you would also decide to wave their responsibilities for the cost of your medical care and absorb the $100,000 bill yourself. From my standpoint, if they were truly sorry, I would not require anything from them. What's this difference between $10.00, $100,000.00, and $1,000,000.00? Absolutely nothing from God's perspective. I know for a fact that God will provide for whatever the cost (He has for 39 years, so why should I doubt His track record?), and use the incident for His glory if I but trust in Him. Even if I had to declare bankruptcy, God gets the glory because the guy who ran over me would know that my actions would have to have come from God. The world would never do it. So I'd die in poverty, but have a crown in heaven, which to me is far better. God's insurance plan is better than anything AllState, Gieko, or State Farm can offer.

PoochThen you are definitely a better person than I, and even most.

[blitzkreig]

Okay, someone clear this up for me. When you have an insurance policy, they keep a record of how many accidents you've had. If you have an accident and you don't report it to your insurance company, how is that ethical? I know it makes your premiums go up, and that really stinks, especially when the accidents are not your fault (bitter experience talking here), but still, how is that being honest in your dealings if you don't report an accident to your insurance company?

I don't see any problem with using the money how you see fit. I just don't understand not going through your insurance company. That's what they're there for. That's why you pay premiums. If you allow the person at fault to settle outside their insurance, isn't that effectively cheating their insurance company?

I'm still fairly new to this car insurance thing, so maybe I have this wrong, and someone can explain it to me. :)Sakrysta if you choose not to go to your insurance company you are "self insured". Even your "deductible" is properly termed a "self insured retention". I have never heard of anybody with a zero deductible car policy.

Now I would never suggest you lie to your insurance company as yes that would be unethical. Actually it is fraud. So if they asked, you should tell them about any accident.

On the other hand I wouldn't suggest every time you get a parking lot dent in your door that you call the insurance company and report it or they may take you to court for harassment :pound

It is all a matter of scale...

I have never heard of an insurance company who would be irked because you didn't stick them with the cost :twitch

As an aside... where I live unless there is over $2,000 worth of damage done the police will not show up and file a report. They think their time is more valuable than arbitrating paint scrapes.

[Pooch]

Are these women not fully forgiving the perpetrators since they haven't forgotten the abuse and refuse to embrace the person that molested them or their children? Yes. Do you not see that Jesus intends to embrace us for killing Him? That is far worse than any abuse we can suffer here. When I get to heaven, I am glad that Jesus will embrace me, because my sins are as far as the east is from the west. He has forgotten them and longs to embrace us. Who are we supposed to be like? Jesus, the Christ.
As the old saying goes, "To forgive is human, to forgive and forget is divine."
Forgiving and forgetting is possible, but only through the divine help of Christ within us.

You said earlier that Jesus would not accept restitution so why would you accept it if it were offered to you? That is not what I said. I said He would not expect or demand payment.

He accepted it and plans to get his breaks repaired and pay off some debt, yet in your earlier posts you seem to believe it's wrong. So what is the reason in this situation that you find troublesome? The part I find troublesome is the 'paying off some dept'. Accepting an offer for damages is OK, if used for those damages.

The reason I stated what I did was because this thread was turning into a 'Get what's owed you, do with it what you want' thread. That is troubleing because it goes against what Jesus taught. Plain and simple.

We should expect nothing in return. We should demand nothing in return. That is a line I think we ought not cross.

I think I've shown enough scripture to support my belief, until I see scripture to the contrary, I will continue to do so. You may or may not, tis your decision.

Pooch

[SapphireGrl]

Yes. Do you not see that Jesus intends to embrace us for killing Him? That is far worse than any abuse we can suffer here. When I get to heaven, I am glad that Jesus will embrace me, because my sins are as far as the east is from the west. He has forgotten them and longs to embrace us. Who are we supposed to be like? Jesus, the Christ.
As the old saying goes, "To forgive is human, to forgive and forget is divine."
Forgiving and forgetting is possible, but only through the divine help of Christ within us.I'm sorry, but am I understanding you correctly? People that have been molested, raped, whatever are not fully forgiving the person if they don't forget what the person did and embrace them again?

That is not what I said. I said He would not expect or demand payment.No you didn't. You said that Love should give the money back if he doesn't get his bumper repaired because Jesus wouldn't take payment from us for paying the price for our sins.

The part I find troublesome is the 'paying off some dept'. Accepting an offer for damages is OK, if used for those damages.Why is receiving restitution for his damaged property contingent on what he does with that money?

The reason I stated what I did was because this thread was turning into a 'Get what's owed you, do with it what you want' thread. That is troubleing because it goes against what Jesus taught. Plain and simple.I'm sorry but I didn't see people taking the attitude of "get what's yours, she owes you," although I do agree with the "do with it what you want," which I don't believe goes against what Jesus taught. Scripture doesn't say it's up to an outside party to decide how someone else should spend his money.

We should expect nothing in return. We should demand nothing in return. That is a line I think we ought not cross.

I think I've shown enough scripture to support my belief, until I see scripture to the contrary, I will continue to do so. You may or may not, tis your decision.

PoochI don't agree with you, Pooch, not because I disagree with scripture, but because I disagree with what you think forgiveness entails.

[blitzkreig]

SapphireGrl ... the only Scripture quoted if applied to this circumstance is so mercilessly ripped out of context I was not even going to comment... but seeing as you did :heh

altruism is cheap until it hits home.

Let's notch it up a bit.

The scenario it is the insurance company is covering the injured party. Would you take their money or be as "forgiving"? Why process the claim? It will put everybody's premium up a few cents. How does it differ?

Step two. There was a little girl injured in the accident and paralyzed for life. There are going to be medical bills and support for her whole life. The other driver was drunk... and drove away "hit and run". Why would that change things?

Make the claim or forgive and forget? Seventy times seven...

Sorry Pooch while the sentiment is good it doesn't apply to a commercial transation... but only a human relationship. It is absolute in human relationships! But not in ordinary commerce. It is misapplied.

[elredcrow]

Is it not true that if you take a cash settlement from the Insurance company most policies will reduce the $$$ by some (smaller) percentage than they would have funded the repair shop?


The company is obligated by insurance law to reimburse you for the full amount of your damage. They can pay you or they can pay a repair shop, but either way the $ should be the same. By the way, you can have your vehicle repaired at any shop that you want... although the company will probably pay damages based on their adjuster's figures, which may or may not jive with the repair shop's estimate. Usually the adjuster and body shop will work together to get it right.

[blitzkreig]

The company is obligated by insurance law to reimburse you for the full amount of your damage. .Apparently that must be different in different jourisdictions...

[elredcrow]

Okay, someone clear this up for me. When you have an insurance policy, they keep a record of how many accidents you've had. If you have an accident and you don't report it to your insurance company, how is that ethical? I know it makes your premiums go up, and that really stinks, especially when the accidents are not your fault (bitter experience talking here), but still, how is that being honest in your dealings if you don't report an accident to your insurance company?

I don't see any problem with using the money how you see fit. I just don't understand not going through your insurance company. That's what they're there for. That's why you pay premiums. If you allow the person at fault to settle outside their insurance, isn't that effectively cheating their insurance company?

I'm still fairly new to this car insurance thing, so maybe I have this wrong, and someone can explain it to me. :)


Most people can not pay the damages out of their own pocket and so the insurance company is informed. However, in an instance where there is property damage only... no one is injured... and both parties are agreeable to it, there is nothing wrong with taking care of the damages out of your own pocket if you so desire. It is what I would do if I could. Believe me, the insurance company is just fine with it. They DO NOT WANT TO PAY CLAIMS. It eats into their profits.

If someone has bad driving habits, it is eventually going to catch up with them premium wise. But why should the otherwise good driver be penalized by higher premiums when they can take care of it out of their pocket? In essence, they are paying the price to the injured party rather than to the insurance company. If reported to the company, the accident stays on their insurance record for at least 3 years if not 5 (depending on the state, or company) and will affect their insurability, raise the company's loss ratios, and increase everyone's premium. Sad but true.

[elredcrow]

Apparently that must be different in different jourisdictions...


You are probably right.... Insurance law is crazy and every state has their own twists and turns. Texas is worst of all...and that's where I live..

However, the only way I can figure a company paying less than the actual amount of loss is if they only pay a portion up front and then when the repairs are completed, will pay the remaining amount. In that case, they might be able to legally pay a smaller amount, if the repairs are not made. Or if the insured keeps the salvage in a case where the vehicle has been totaled.

[Pooch]

Sorry Pooch while the sentiment is good it doesn't apply to a commercial transation... but only a human relationship.
Yes, I can see that it is all about the monetary transaction, and that about sums up this discussion. It's just so hard for people to survive without thier money, and thier rights being infringed upon. Silly me.

Sapphiregirl, My step-daughter has been abused more than you could know by her dad. She is at peace because she forgave and forgot. My step-son never forgot, and it's been many years, and it still tears him up inside. My statements are from experience, not by wishful thinking in divine eutopian world.

If someone were to enter into your house and kill your child, would you forgive them if they truely repented and asked you for forgiveness? Would you forgive them to the point of even inviting them into your home to live with you? Would you then take care of them and feed them, clothe them, and love them as your own? Would you tell them that it's ok, and that you don't even remember it anymore? I know someone who did just that very thing. His name is Elohim, and we killed His Son. Now, if this poses a problem, so be it.

When you get money to repair something and do not repair it, it is just plain wrong no matter how you try to justify it. We have nothing on this planet. You have nothing. I have nothing. The only thing we take with us from this planet is our spirit. Money, cars, damages, houses, sickness, and even death are nothing. Nada, zip ziltch. Everything I think I own is just being borrowed from my kids until I die anyhow. Like I said, the whole concept of forgiveness goes way beyond what the world follows. True forgiveness is something that can only be done through the work of Christ within us. It is one of the hardest things to do in this life, but don't tell me it isn't possible or it isn't what God desires. I've seen it and I've done it, and have had it done to me.

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, as long as thier is breath in your body, it is possible. Stephen did it, but above all, Christ did it.

Blitz, since I quoted Scripture, if you feel it was taken out of context, feel free to explain with scripture. Otherwise, it remains as stated.

Pooch

[SapphireGrl]

Sapphiregirl, My step-daughter has been abused more than you could know by her dad. She is at peace because she forgave and forgot. My step-son never forgot, and it's been many years, and it still tears him up inside. My statements are from experience, not by wishful thinking in divine eutopian world.I'm not talking about forgiving and forgetting in that aspect. I'm talking about forgiving, forgetting, and moving on with your life, yet still allowing a rapist or a molester into your home and around your children to possibly re-abuse you or them. I would not allow that. Maybe you would, but I wouldn't. Just because you don't reinvite a monster back into your life does not mean that you have not fully forgiven them.

If someone were to enter into your house and kill your child, would you forgive them if they truely repented and asked you for forgiveness? Would you forgive them to the point of even inviting them into your home to live with you? Would you then take care of them and feed them, clothe them, and love them as your own? Would you tell them that it's ok, and that you don't even remember it anymore? I know someone who did just that very thing. His name is Elohim, and we killed His Son. Now, if this poses a problem, so be it.
Would I forgive them? Yes. Would I embrace them into my life? No, I wouldn't. I think that it is very easy to say God did this, so I would do it too. Well, I'm not going to do that. God is perfect and has the capacity to not only forgive and forget, but to embrace the most horrible sinner into his fold because of who He is. I am not God. While I could forgive someone like a serial rapist or pedaphile, I certainly could never embrace them into my life and give them the chance to harm me or my child again. However, if you would, again, you are a better person than I, as well as most, and I commend you for your amazing ability.

[Knight Errant]

Sapphiregirl, My step-daughter has been abused more than you could know by her dad. She is at peace because she forgave and forgot. My step-son never forgot, and it's been many years, and it still tears him up inside. My statements are from experience, not by wishful thinking in divine eutopian world.

If someone were to enter into your house and kill your child, would you forgive them if they truely repented and asked you for forgiveness? Would you forgive them to the point of even inviting them into your home to live with you? Would you then take care of them and feed them, clothe them, and love them as your own? Would you tell them that it's ok, and that you don't even remember it anymore? I know someone who did just that very thing. His name is Elohim, and we killed His Son. Now, if this poses a problem, so be it.Pooch


But in our case, Justice was and will be done before we sit down in Father's house. In Christ, we do die with Him and are raised with Him as new creations, (born again or born from above and becoming a new creation are not just bumper sticker slogans,) so the old creation that that killed His Son is being destroyed every day and is ceasing to be. And when we die or are raptured it will totally cease to be/will have ceased to be.

While we are living in this world we have to deal with the old sin nature, in ourselves and in others. That is why it is also God's will to have courts, police and armies, and whacking Osama bin Laden is not sinfull, even as we pray for him. And, as C.S. Lewis observed, if you have committed murder, the Christian thing is to give yourself up to the Law and be hanged. Remember Romans 14, that we are to be good citezens, and that Ceasar does not bear the sword in vain. Problem solved.