The Trinity - Please Explain It To Me

[saved1]

Please explain the Trinity to me in words a 6 yr old could understand.

God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.

All are one but separate. My mind has a hard time wrapping around it.

I just need someone to explain it to me without getting technical. My pastor has explained it like an egg. The Shell, The Yoke and The White.
but it still confuses me. :confused

[Paul]

I don't know if we can understand the Trinity fully. This how C.S. Lewis described the Trinity in his book "Mere Christianity".

"On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings - just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures.

On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube.

Of course, we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint of something super-personal - something more than a person."

[Christine]

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image

Image: Body, Spirit, Soul (Christ, Holy Spirit, Father)

:thumb

[cenimo]

saved1

I once heard a sermon that was basically, "If anyone ever tells you they can explain the Trinity to you, get up and run out of there!"

A lot of people try to do it like this- water can be ice, steam, or water, but it's all water in different forms. When people say that I answer with, "Let's see it be ice, steam, and water all at the same time."

[blitzkreig]

A lot of people try to do it like this- water can be ice, steam, or water, but it's all water in different forms. When people say that I answer with, "let's see it be ice, steam, and water all at the same time. Just for discussion purposes... what is it that you say when they respond with this?

Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.

[Purity]

A long time ago someone explained it to me like this--think of an egg. There's the shell, the white and the yolk. Three separate things, in one.
I don't believe we can ever really understand, but the egg analogy helped me relate better.

[Patty T]

Another neat picture (IMHO!) is Matt 3:16, 17:

16...Then Jesus, when He had been baptized, came up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."


So here we see:

Jesus (being baptized);
The Holy Spirit (descending upon Jesus)
God the Father (the voice from heaven)

[Nimrod]

Blitz....I often ponder that myself? Why does the implication seem to state that they can not be in the same place at the same time? Is there another implication of this passage?

[cenimo]

Purity

The egg is totally incapable of separating the three, or two of the three, and coming back together.


blitzkeig

As Nimrod said, that passage hardly explains being in the same place simaltaneously, now does it?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I've also heard this explanation, and it too is weak -
"Well, I'm a husband, a father, and a foreman."

While that's true, he's not all three at the same place - when he's at work, he's the foreman. At home he can be the husband and father, but that's 2/3's of the equation, not a constant "trinity". I'll still go with that sermon, there is no explanation that we humans can understand, it's a faith factor.

[blitzkreig]

Blitz....I often ponder that myself? Why does the implication seem to state that they can not be in the same place at the same time? Is there another implication of this passage?I have no idea what so ever... not even an opinion.

I tend to agree with cenimo that "If anyone ever tells you they can explain the Trinity to you, get up and run out of there!" :B:

The best of the similes is time. We have past, present, and future... but all are "time". But of course that doesn't really explain anything. It's only a balm for my aching head :doh

[blitzkreig]

One complementary passage to this:

Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.

is another Trinity passage:

Joh 7:37-39
(37) And in the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
(38) He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
(39) (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

but it is equally mysterious... at least to me...

[Purity]

[QUOTE=cenimo]Purity

The egg is totally incapable of separating the three, or two of the three, and coming back together.
QUOTE]

You're right. That never occured to me because no one ever explained it before. It just made sense a long time ago when it was explained to me that an egg can be whole or separated into three parts. But you are right--an egg can't come back together, so it was a bad explanation.

[AnotherOldGuy]

saved1

When people say that I answer with, "Let's see it be ice, steam, and water all at the same time."

Sorry, it can happen.

"Triple point is the intersection on a phase diagram where three phases coexist in equilibrium. The most important application of triple point is water, where the three-phase equilibrium point consists of ice, liquid, and vapor."

[SingGlorytoHIM]

Sorry, it can happen.

"Triple point is the intersection on a phase diagram where three phases coexist in equilibrium. The most important application of triple point is water, where the three-phase equilibrium point consists of ice, liquid, and vapor."


Can I call you Bill Nye?

[hopemail]

diamond w/ three facets

[MarkD]

Whew!

I seriously do not think that any of us will ever fully comprehend or understand the Trinity this side of eternity. Perhaps when we are face to face with the Lord He can explain it (or possibly show it) to us more completely.

That being said, the best simile I've ever heard is the sun, light, and warmth.

The sun is God
the light is Jesus
the warmth is the Holy Spirit

They are all separate entities, but no one entity could exist without the others. This is how I personally visualize it in my mind.

I'm sure someone can come along and explain how one can operate independently, or how this is a faulty analogy, but I think you get my point.

Again, our limited understanding will always impede our ability to comprehend this particular topic :wacko so this is one area where we need to really stand on faith.

Anyway, thats's my plug nickel worth.

[rtd2]

quote: is another Trinity passage:

Joh 7:37-39
(37) And in the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
(38) He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
(39) (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)





How does that relate to these:?

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



okay Ive been hanging around here reading more than posting and when Ido post its genalrally not the hot topics like this but here goes anyway!

Never found trinity in the bible but I know there are 2 concepts that I've heard about

3 parts (father ,son ,holyghost= 1 GOD 1 throne in heaven)


3 seperate spirits (Father ,Son ,Holyghost = 1 GOD with 3 thrones in heaven)


If I had to pick a belef in trinity it would be # 1 but I dont beleive trinity AT ALL I beleive theres is only one GOD with the power to put himself anywhere at any time as anything! let me futher explain below and let me say I expect to be flamed for this but this is MHO and not in stone and I respect and listen to others beleif!

I believe theres a verse(slips my mind) that says that if you have seen jesus you have ALSO SEEN his father GOD

okay heres were I'm gonna loose alot of you I beleve God is one AND all he said himself I am the beginning the end the alpha, omega.... now I think god knows our humanly limits of thought. I think GOD sent HIMSELF as a humanly form(being jesus) having a brain and body like us with feelings...pain,joy sorrow) and with a direct link to heaven thus having super natural powers (healing ect. through GOD) but for us to relate this one person manafest in flesh on earth.... he was titled his son! NOT TAKING AWAY the sacrafice cause it had to be this way GOD himself could not come to this sinfull earth thus he sent himself (jesus) as a son.... a perfect sacrafice for all sin so to some it up I dont beleive there is such a concept is trinity its not biblical..... Now people who dont follow what I'm saying ask about Jesus on the cross? who was he praying to? he said "FATHER forgive them" Yep I agree but go back to the beginning of my post I said I beleive GOD who is omni-present sent Himself to earth in a humanly form as Jesus thus having certain limits (being a human)so when jesus cried out to his father I beleive Jesus in humanly form was praying to HIMSELF=( GOD ) in Hevean. I realize people may think this is crazy but hey I'm only HUMAN! :doh I just think God wants us all saved and the world embraces john 3:16 and relate to the sacrafice of his son and how painful that must have been. I agree I only believe GOD felt the pain too! HE WAS THERE! GOD bless

[Slippery]

all analogies are weak. I will try to illustrate it, but don't stretch my analogy too far because it breaks down.

God is One in Essence and Substance, and 3 in persons.

The above statement shows that God is one in one thing and 3 in another thing.

The closest thing I feel that comes to it in nature is Fire.

If I Light a candle, from that same flame I can light another candle, and I can also light another candle. We have One Fire and 3 flames. Each flame is equal to the other flame, same as the other flame etc. But they all proceeded from the Original flame, which can be likened unto the Father, the second flame the Son, this flame came directly out of the Original flame, and is the same as the Original flame eventhough it is distinct, and the third flame proceeds from both the First and Second flame is the Holy Spirit, and this flame is the exact as the First and Second.

That is where the analogy ends. If we stretch it further it breaks down, because more and more flames can be derived, hence it would be blasphemy to assume that more and more persons can proceed from God eventhough the Bible says that God is unchangeable.

So back to the original statement, God is One in Essence and Substance and 3 in persons. Keep cramming that, and you will get glimpses of God, but not a full comprehensive glimpse since God is infinite and we are finite. As Jesus said, Old Wineskins cannot contain New Wine. It will burst.

[cenimo]

AnotherOldGuy

Sorry, it can happen.

"Triple point is the intersection on a phase diagram where three phases coexist in equilibrium. The most important application of triple point is water, where the three-phase equilibrium point consists of ice, liquid, and vapor."
Reply With Quote

Sorry, not good enough....Hmm...let's see it happen on Earth, in the US and somewhere out in the Pacific, and in Heaven, all at once...

[RonnieBee]

The Bible says, "God made man in His Image." The word man, (aw'dawm or Adam) refers to the species as well as the individual person. Therefore I think of the Trinity as a Family, The Family of God. God the Father has both Male and female attributes, His wisdom is refered to in the feminine form in the Proverbs. The holy spirit is called the Comforter, as a mother comforts her children.

Now if you think of the Father and Holy Spirit as both male and female, you have the family unit. Father, Mother, and Child(Children), which is one family, the basic unit of the Species mankind.

((Father), (Mother), (Child(ren))) in one, (Family).

That is not exactly an explaination for a 6 year old, but it works for me. :):

[Slippery]

I don't think the Family analogy is that workable. The only part I think is valid is with the Father and Son or Child because the Child comes from the Father. This is emphasized in scripture by the very words of Jesus. The Mother has to be eliminated because she does not proceed from the Father or the Son.

Anyway we have to realize that all our attempts will only give us vague glimpses of God, because we are sinful and mutable, while God is sinless and immutable, thus if we being sinful and mutable can fully perceive and comprehend God, that would be a contradiction and God wouldn't be who he claim to be.

[RonnieBee]

I don't think the Family analogy is that workable. The only part I think is valid is with the Father and Son or Child because the Child comes from the Father. This is emphasized in scripture by the very words of Jesus. The Mother has to be eliminated because she does not proceed from the Father or the Son.

Anyway we have to realize that all our attempts will only give us vague glimpses of God, because we are sinful and mutable, while God is sinless and immutable, thus if we being sinful and mutable can fully perceive and comprehend God, that would be a contradiction and God wouldn't be who he claim to be.

Slippery,
What scripture are you refering to on this. Just curious.
Ronnie

[Pooch]

Why use analogies?

Jesus was a human, who had the Spirit of God inside of Him guiding Him. He prayed to the Father in the same way we pray to the Father who is living in us. When Jesus rose from the dead, the Spirit of God was now available to all who believed in who Jesus was. God is Spirit in Heaven, the Holy Spirit is God's spirit 'inside you', Jesus was the first man with God's spirit living inside Him. He said He would send another; ie, God would not dwell inside of our hearts until after the resurection. You have your own spirit, which makes you who you are, Jesus had God's spirit which makes Him who He was: God.

It's not really a mystery, but if you want to run, that's fine too.

God is omnipresent/spirit. He can speak from heaven while Jesus was getting baptized, in the same way that He can dwell in me, while speaking to someone halfway around the world. Even though he dwells in heaven, He exists everywhere.

Pooch

[Slippery]

Slippery,
What scripture are you refering to on this. Just curious.
Ronnie

John
8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I hope the above helps.

[abkn]

I taught my children this way (like Christine pointed out).

I am dad the body, dad the soul and dad the spirit. I am 3 persons in one. God made us in his image, so likewise he is 3 just like me.

The body exists because you can touch me. You can harm my spirit by treating me bad (my feelings) and my soul is how I think (logic/reasoning). Worked for them!

One day I will be seperated from dad the body, but praise Jesus, I will get a new one and be complete once more when I am in heaven.

[GAB]

God has three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are wholly God and wholly distinct. We worship one God, not three. (A Jewish decision of the second century A.D. noted that Christians are not polytheists, btw).

The position of Son is positional, not generational; the Son has existed for all eternity, as has the Spirit. He willingly and out of love obeys the Father perfectly, and the Spirit serves as a conduct of love and power between Father and Son.

I can't explain it fully. If I could understand the Trinity, I would be God. I am a man, a poor sinner, simil justus et peccator!

But I note that in the Tribulation, Satan will try to mimic the Trinity, with Satan playing the role of the Father, the Antichrist the role of the Son, and the Holy Spirit mimicked by unclean spirits. But these are distinct, in conflict with one another. How evil of Satan!

[Slippery]

Gab would you care to comment on the following article. It concerns the Usage of the terms, Eternal and Generated.


A Defense of the Doctrine of the Eternal Sonship of Christ - Samual E. Waldron

One place at which the historic doctrine of the Trinity is in danger from rationalism in our day is in a widespread doubt among evangelical teachers as to the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son and the eternal procession of the Spirit. This doubt is probably due to the seeming contradiction of asserting that the Son is self-existent God and yet eternally generated. The Baptist Confession, in line with both the Westminster Confession and the Savoy Declaration and all the historic creeds of the church, warns us against indulging such doubts upon this subject.

It is often thought that the doctrine of eternal generation involves Subordinationism. Three kinds of subordination must be distinguished. There is subordination in the modes of operation. This has reference to the subordination of the God-man to the Father in the economy of redemption. This may be called economic subordination. Secondly, there is subordination in the modes of subsistence. This has reference to an order and relationship of derivation among the persons (or hypostases) of the Trinity itself. The Son is begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds from both. This may be called hypostatic subordination. Thirdly, there is subordination in essence. This has reference to the idea that the deity of the Son and Spirit is a qualified form of the deity of the Father. This may be called essential subordination. It is this which has been historically and properly known as Subordinationism.

The historic doctrine of the church and its creeds is that as to their essence the Son and Spirit are equal in power and glory to the Father, but as to their persons they are eternally generated and eternally proceed from the Father. Thus, as to their essence, they are self-existent, while as to their persons, they are eternally derived from the Father. As the historic doctrines of the church, these two doctrines are not rightly called Subordinationism. That term is properly reserved for the teaching that the Son and the Spirit are as to their essence less God than the Father and essentially less transcendent. Hypostatic subordination and economic subordination are not, therefore, Subordinationism.

The biblical evidence in favour of the eternal generation of the Son may be summarized as follows.
The economy of redemption is that of creation (John 1: 1 3; Heb 1:2; 1 Cor. 8:6). Surely it is strange that both in the economy of creation and the economy of redemption the same order is maintained, if this economic subordinationdoes not reflect a certain hypostatic subordination in the Trinity itself?


The Bible teaches explicitly that the Son is begotten, or, at least, derived (John 1: 14, 18). The translation of the key word is, however, disputed. Some translate it in the traditional way, 'only begotten', while others prefer the translation I unique'. To some extent this problem of translation is related to a disputed etymology. Some derive the word from the verb which means 'to beget' and others from the verb which means 'to become'. Either possible etymology contains the idea of (eternal) derivation.


Proverbs 8:22-31 also contains explicit teaching to this effect, if applied to the Son of God. The New Testament seems to make the application itself (Col. 2:3; 1 Cor. 1:24, 30; Luke 11:49). Note also Micah 5:2.


It has sometimes been argued that the designation 'Son' is never used of the pre-incarnate Christ. Allowing this interpretation of these terms for the sake of argument, it does not explain the use of the term 'Father.' This term is clearly applied to the first person of the Trinity describing his relationship to the second before the incarnation (John 10: 36; 16:28; 1 John 4:14). It is impossible to disentangle this term from the idea of One who is the cause, source, or begetter. The Father is the Father precisely to the Son (John 5:18; Col. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6).


The argument that the term 'Son' is never used of the preincarnate Christ is not convincing (John 3:16; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:14).


The argument that the term 'Son' means nothing but equality simply does not carry conviction. That it does note equality we do not, of course, deny. However, to say that it denotes only this appears to fly in the faceof everything we know not only about the word 'father' but also the word 'son'.


Further evidence for the doctrine of eternal generation is gained from what we may call the doctrine of eternal utterance. The other clear designation of the pre-incarnate Son is the Word. Surely this designation intimates a relationship of subordination between the person designated God and the person designated the Word in John 1: 1. As to their essence both are God, unqualified deity. 'The Word was God.' As to their persons, however, one is called 'the God' and the other is called 'the Word' of God.


Without eternal generation and eternal procession and the doctrine of hypostatic subordination it is impossible to distinguish the different persons of the Trinity. There are no revealed personal relations or properties. Even terminology like the First, Second, or Third Person of the Trinity becomes illegitimate. We are left with three colourless, unvarying, indistinguishable persons in the Trinity. This result smells of the barrenness of human philosophy, not the richness of biblical revelation.


Finally, the suppression of a real eternal fatherhood and a real eternal sonship lessens the glory of redemptive love. Is not the glory of the Father giving his Son for our redemption lessened if we limit the idea of sonship in this sentence to mere equality? The result is that one neutered divine person gives another colourless divine person. On this idea, where is the glory of the Father's sacrifice? Where is the glory of the Son's filial obedience? The tendency to doubt eternal generation and eternal procession diminishes the glory of the gospel.
(This work was taken from pages 56-59 of "A Modern exposition of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith," by Samuel E. Waldron – second edition)

[billywhitebread]

i like this analogy

my friend john....

he is a father
he is a son
he is an idividual

try another one... a radio station

the call letters they have... WCRJ
the name they have...The Promise
where they are on the dial...106.5

[Lost&Found]

The Trinity is false doctrine that no one can explain because it is FALSE and is not backed up by scripture. I have been Baptist since I was 9 and have questioned this doctrine from the beginning. The bible speaks of other "gods" all the time but there is only ONE SOVEREIGN GOD. Convincing humans that Jehovah is not the only god was the first lie Satan told to Adam & Eve. Ge 3:5

[Slippery]

Lost and Found, you better check yourself, because if that is what you believe you are no Christian.

Of course mankind cannot fully understand God, God is infinite and Holy and Mankind is finite and sinful.
Jesus said, Old Skins cannot contain New Wine, and if you think the Trinity is a false and made up doctrine, how could the following be stated clearly in scripture
John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The only way we can justly Honor the Son as we Honor the Father is if we give the Son the same Honor as we give the Father. And since the Father is God, and we are told to give the same Honor to the Son, then it justly follows that the Son is likewise God. This is also proven because God said he will share his glory with no one, but yet He shares his Glory with His Son. Why? Because He and His Son is One.

How about this other verse John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Here we see Jesus preceeding forth from God, hence necessitating that he is of the same substance of God, which is Divinity.

How about this one John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

I think that clearly speaks for itself concerning the equality of Jesus with the Father, hence if the Father is God, then Jesus is also God.

This isn't a matter of understanding. There are many things that are natural that we do not understand and yet we do not discount them as a hoax. And if these are things in the natural, how much more unreasonable would a person be to discount things of the Supernatural for lack of understanding, even the Holy God whom no man has ever seen, except in theophanies.

[Hootmon]

How about this other verse John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Here we see Jesus preceeding forth from God, hence necessitating that he is of the same substance of God, which is Divinity.:nodJoh 8:42 Jesus2424 said2036 unto them,846 If1487 God2316 were2258 your5216 Father,3962 ye would love25, 302 me:1691 for1063 I1473 proceeded forth1831 and2532 came2240 from1537 God;2316 (1063) neither3761 came2064 I of575 myself,1683 but235 he1565 sent649 me.3165

G1831
ἐξέρχομαι
exerchomai
Thayer Definition:

1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out

2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of
2c) to go forth from one’s power, escape from it in safety
2d) to come forth (from privacy) into the world, before the public, (of those who by novelty of opinion attract attention)
2e) of things
2e1) of reports, rumours, messages, precepts
2e2) to be made known, declared
2e3) to be spread, to be proclaimed
2e4) to come forth
2e4a) emitted as from the heart or the mouth
2e4b) to flow forth from the body
2e4c) to emanate, issue
2e4c1) used of a sudden flash of lightning
2e4c2) used of a thing vanishing
2e4c3) used of a hope which has disappeared

Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1537 and G2064
Citing in TDNT: 2:678, 257

[Slippery]

2) metaphorically

2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of

I think Proceed as used in the text refers to the above. Eventhough the usage of the term physically may be to weak in connotating the lack of beginning, the lack of ending and the lack of succession when it relates to Jesus.

[Hootmon]

2) metaphorically

2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of

I think Proceed as used in the text refers to the above. Eventhough the usage of the term physically may be to weak in connotating the lack of beginning, the lack of ending and the lack of succession when it relates to Jesus. Actually, I would have picked this 'literal' meaning...

1) to go or come forth of

1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or the point from which he departs

The 'departure point' being God (the Trinity).

Not that He ever actually 'left' it, but He did 'diminish' Himself to become truely human for a time.

[Lost&Found]

Dear Slippery
John 17:22 (From the lips of Jesus himself) I have given them (the disciples)the GLORY that you gave me, that they may be ONE as we are ONE. (NIV). So were the disciples divine also? Was Jesus praying to himself?
John 8:42 (did you read that paragraph to understand what he was saying here?)
John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
I do not question your christianity because I am not the judge of your heart, but I do question your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures.

[Christine]

Lost&Found,

It is the position of this board that the triune nature of God is indeed scriptural.

As you do not believe this, I will ask that you take your comments to the Apologetics forum and out of Christian Chat.

Thanks!

[Slippery]

Dear Slippery

I do not question your christianity because I am not the judge of your heart, but I do question your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures.
To be a Christian you need to answer the question, Who Jesus Is? If you get Jesus wrong, your whole religion would be vanity. This isn't about a matter of the heart and how good a person is etc. Righteousness is like Filthy rags, so that writes off anything to do with how a person heart is.

Who is Jesus? Get Jesus right, you get your beliefs right, you get your beliefs right, you get your religion right.

[Gary]

Dear Slippery
John 17:22 (From the lips of Jesus himself) I have given them (the disciples)the GLORY that you gave me, that they may be ONE as we are ONE. (NIV). So were the disciples divine also? Was Jesus praying to himself?
John 8:42 (did you read that paragraph to understand what he was saying here?)
John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
I do not question your christianity because I am not the judge of your heart, but I do question your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures.


Not sure what the point here is... :confused

[Lost&Found]

Gary I would explain but I have been told not to make any more comments on subject of the Trinity

[Gary]

Gary I would explain but I have been told not to make any more comments on subject of the Trinity

Yep. It is always wise to accept the rules of the board. Perhaps you could PM me with the point of your post? I don't want to be argumentative or anything, I just want to understand what you are saying. I promise I won't flame you. Thanks.

[LaMontre]

Convincing humans that Jehovah is not the only god was the first lie Satan told to Adam & Eve. Ge 3:5

Your statement is in error;

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That was actually part of the truth. Satan ALWAYS mingles error, with truth.

It is called "deception".

[Hootmon]

Interesting point, LaMontre

The sin isnt really wanting to become 'like God'. In fact, that is what we are encouraged to do; to be 'Christ-like'.

The sin is trying to do it in a way contrary to God's will.

[LaMontre]

Interesting point, LaMontre

The sin isnt really wanting to become 'like God'. In fact, that is what we are encouraged to do; to be 'Christ-like'.

The sin is trying to do it in a way contrary to God's will.

True. The fact is they were already created in Gods image.

Knowing (or judging what is) good and evil isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's a responsibility I have become happy to deligate back to God.

Satans overall deception was to make them believe God was a liar (as if the commandment was given out of fear?) and that his word could not be trusted.

[Lost&Found]

THE BELIEVERS PRAYER Acts 3:24-30
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "SOVEREIGN Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spriit through the mouth of your servant, our father David "Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 26The Kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD AND AGAINST HIS ANOINTED ONE' 27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy sevant Jesus."

[LaMontre]

THE BELIEVERS PRAYER Acts 3:24-30
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "SOVEREIGN Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spriit through the mouth of your servant, our father David "Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 26The Kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD AND AGAINST HIS ANOINTED ONE' 27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy sevant Jesus."

Ahhhh......took a few reads to get your point.

Yes, Jesus is "His annointed one". He is also "the only begotten of the Father". He is also "the alpha and the omega, the begining and the ending";

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

In the previous verses His humanity is spoken of.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Here we see his deity.

Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else

Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Who is this "son of man"?

Who is this "Jesus of Nazareth"?

There is something you must understand and the trinity will naturally follow.

"There is only ONE God." And Jesus Christ is both human and divine. The doctrine is known as the "hypostatic union" among theologians. Just a term given to explain the verses which speak both of Jesus being human (His Annointed), and of his being divine (The Almighty).

[Lost&Found]

Mark7:8 You have let go of commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men".

[LaMontre]

Mark7:8 You have let go of commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men".

Well I suppose? That is if you believe that Johns witness in Revelation could be called "tradition"?

It barely even made the canon.

[Samer]

the two i like are
1) love
for there to be love, we must have a lover, a person receiving the love, and a spirit of love.
and
2) mind, thoughts, and word
our mind uses thoughts to create word..they are 3 different things, but they are all interrelated and one essential whole. and of course, Jesus is the eternal Word of God. :)

[Lost&Found]

LaMontre

True,

But we do have the books of Isaiah, Daniel, and Psalms to compare the Revelation with.

[LaMontre]

LaMontre

True,

But we do have the books of Isaiah, Daniel, and Psalms to compare the Revelation with.

Which is probably at least one of the reasons it was included. It bears striking resemblance to Daniel, and (as the previous verses show) Isaiah as well.

Of course I am of the belief that it is there because God wanted it there, so the whole subject of "why" men felt it should be included is moot anyway.

It's Gods word and he has preserved it, just as he promised.

:thumb

[Lost&Found]

Agreed and Amen

[Van Helsing]

Well, let me try this! The sun-sunray-warmth-thing workes for me, but before I heard that one I've been philosophising how I would explane this to a Muslem. Not shure He would understand this becouse it became a bit comlicated, I'm afraid.
I read somewhere that the three main angels, seraphs, cherubs and thrones could be explaned as angels of Love (seraph,) angels of Wisdom (cherubs) and angels of Power (thrones) becouse you can see that in their original hebrew names. So it came to my mind that the Trinity could be based on stages of Creation ( I don't know this is true but I think it's okay to philosophise about it.) So I compared it to making a model airplane: first you need the urge to make a thing like that, you need an idea, you need love to create, a thought, I call this Love and it could be the Father, becouse the Father is the beginning of everything, He is the Fatherly love.
Than you need a plan, a concept, a Word, to decide what material you will use, to calculate (fysical laws?) etc. I call this Wisdom, and it could be the Son, becouse the Concept begins with an Idea, like a Son begins with his father and like a Word comes from a Thought.
After that, you want to take this Idea and Concept into a real modelplane, you're beginning to build the thing. This is the real fysical creation, I call this the Spirit (the bible portays the Spirit as a power from God.) So there is Love, Wisdom and Power, they are all connected, all part of the same builder, they can't exist without each other, but they are all different (stages.)
Without love, wisdom becomes cold knowledge
Without wisdom, love becomes crazy passion
Without power (to act), those above are totally useless

You can relate more to this Love, Wisdom, Power thing like:
Spirit, that which make us more than animals (Love)
Soul, life, breath etc. (Wisdom)
Body, matter (Power)

or Heart (Love), head (Wisdom) and hands (Power.)

I know it's a bit weird to compare God's creation with making a modelplane, but I think we were made after His image, so it's not imposible that we are doing the same as He did.
Okay, shoot! Be gentle with me! :freaked

[Van Helsing]

With this in mind I thought: if a cherub is an angel of Wisdom and Lucifer was (one of) the main cherub(s) it could be that he thought that Wisdom was enough, that he could do without Love (without God.) If you look around you to where he is taking this world, this is indeed a world with a lot of science and knowledge (corrupted wisdom) but with only few love.
Cherubs are often described as angels with animal or human faces. Was Lucifer a winged cherub with a snake-head? Genisis describes the snake as the 'smartest' (I don't have an english bible, so I don't know wich word is used) of the animals in the field (the cherubs?) Isn't a winged snake infact a dragon?

[cenimo]

This is just me but I think that since all the people here trying to explain the Trinity can't come up with one common explanation, and are striving for all these metaphors, that's only more proof that in essence humans can't really understand it.

This is kind of going like the Athanasius Creed....read that sometime. It's obvious if you do that old Saint Athanasius just dug himself in deeper and deeper trying to explain it.

That doesn't mean don't believe it, that just reinforces it as being a matter of faith.

[cenimo]

As a matter of fact, here it is:

http://www.santabiblia.net/resources/athanasius_creed.htm

The Creed of Athanasius

The Athanasian Creed is that latest of the ecumenical creeds, dating back to the early dark ages. Though seldom used in worship, it is one of the clearest definitions of the Trinity and the incarnation ever written.

Whosoever will be saved,
before all things it is is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled,
without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity
in Unity,
neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son,
and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son,
and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate,
and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal,
and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals,
but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty,
and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties,
but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods,
but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord,
and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords,
but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge ever y
Person by Himself to be both God and Lord,
so we are forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, there be three Gods,
or three Lords.
The Father is made of none,
neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone,
not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father [and of the Son],
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;
one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or l ess
than another;
but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid,
the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved
must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation
that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ .
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul in human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead;
and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood.
Who, although He be God and Man,
yet He is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,
but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man,
so God and Man is one Christ.
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty,
from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;
and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.

Amen.


I'm by no means no saying the trinity isn't valid.....I'm saying this is thought to be one of the clearest definitions of it....considering that, read this, try to memorize it, and tell it to someone else.

(It's a Creed, no Catholic argument being invited here, it's from early church history)

[Van Helsing]

This creed is interesting, but it's not all that clear to me. It still raises a lot of questions and leave many unanswered.
I think you are right, we cannot understand the Trinity, the bible is just not that clear on this matter. But I think it's no sin to try to understand this special relation between the Three in the Trinity. After all, it is our duty to tell people about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. If you would talk to a muslim and He askes how one God can be three gods, you really have to think about what you believe. So if we come up with all these metaphors and philosophy, we don't say we know how it all works, but we are just trying to make it more understandable for ourselves and others.
There is nothing wrong with using metaphors, Jesus used it many times.

[Mountain Girl]

I've read that St. Patrick used a three leaf clover to explain the trinity.

[cenimo]

Mountain Girl

I just read that in a book, here it is:

There is a memorable little legend about St. Patrick and
the Holy Trinity. One version of the legend states that he was
near a meadow one day when Irish chieftans asked for an explanation
of the Trinity. St. Patrick saw a shamrock, a yellow flower with three
leaves and plucked it, and said in effect: "God is like this flower; this flower
has three petals, and the three petals form this shamrock. So God consists of
three persons, and yet one is God."

Our Christian Symbols
Friedrich Rest
The Pilgrim Press 1954
p 17
________________________________________


but personally, I don't think that's any real explanation either....

[Lvlngandprospr]

The trinity is one of the hardest concepts to comprehend and I am not going to pretend to fully comprehend it. But this is how I view it. Someone mentioned water, ice, vapor, but discounted it because they don't all exist at the same time. Yet, what are they made of, H2O. All are are H2O. Another example is the trinity of man-body, mind and spirit.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[cenimo]

Some key rings are made of plastic, model airplanes are made of plastic, and some toy cars are made of plastic. One is not the other. That's why I don't see the water / H20 explanation as an explanation.

Man-body, mind and spirit is what yoga is based on, say yoga here and some people freak....but man-body, mind and spirit doesn't include, or doesn't have to include God and Jesus, so s that, too.

I'm sticking with the guy who gave the sermon about the Trinity cannot be explained, believed in, but not explained.

[Lvlngandprospr]

Some key rings are made of plastic, model airplanes are made of plastic, and some toy cars are made of plastic. One is not the other. That's why I don't see the water / H20 explanation as an explanation.

Man-body, mind and spirit is what yoga is based on, say yoga here and some people freak....but man-body, mind and spirit doesn't include, or doesn't have to include God and Jesus, so s that, too.

I'm sticking with the guy who gave the sermon about the Trinity cannot be explained, believed in, but not explained.

Thank you for your response. I in reply, plastic is always man made, manipulated. H2O isn't. It is aways the same molecular structure. Plastic isn't.

Mind, body, spirit is very Scriptural. Many religions have manipulated it to fit a particular religion. However, it always includes God for that is how God created all people. Yes, many deny God, many deny Jesus, many deny the Holy Spirit. That doesn't change how God created us.

Yoga is an excellent form of exercise. It is a form of worship only if one chooses to make it so. If one chooses to make it a form of worship, then it's one choice who the worship is directed to. In my case, it's the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob through my Savior and Lord, Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 5:3
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

1 Cor 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

7:34
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

James 2:16
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Mat 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Rom 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Xlcor]

"It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed." ~Luke 1:3-4~

Well, I do not claim perfect understanding, (far from it) but I will attempt to put into words that which eludes mortals' capacity to fully comprehend.

In grasping the concept of the Trinity,he first verse that comes to mind is also the "Memory" verse: John 14:26; "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whome the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance whatsoever I have said unto you."

Here, all three persons of the Godhead are mentioned. In the scene between Peter and Annanias & Sapphira over the price of their property, Peter tells Annanias he has lied to the Holy Ghost; (Acts 5:3) and has not only lied to men, but to God. (Acts 5:4) Peter equates the Holy Ghost with God the Father. Jesus performed things which are reserved only to Diety: (forgiveness of sins, and accepting worship, to name just two)

Although our limited minds are incapable of understanding the infinite, I believe we can Scripturally make the claim that, 1, the Father is God, 2, the Son is God, and 3, the Holy Ghost(Spirit) is God. GOD can accomplish this because He is God.

[DebbieFraser]

Hi!
The way I see it is this... God is the main source...the Father, the Son(Jesus), the Holy Spirit all come from God. They are all seperate, but come from one source. God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is 3. All 3 come from 1, which is GOD ALMIGHTY!!!! Get it, Almighty(ALL being the key word here. Nothing is impossible with God, nothing)