Hebrew Christian churches/fellowship

[Hootmon]

Ive been reading several books by Arnold Frushtenbaum lately, most recently the one titled Hebrew Christianity (http://www.ariel.org/catbooks.html#hc).

Im intrigued by the idea of a Hebrew/Gentile Christian hybrid church (one that does not supress the 'Jewishness' of Hebrew Christians), which seems to me to be the closest match for the 'The Way' as described in the NT.

I was wondering what others here think about it, and would like any resources online that address that issue specifically.

[Whosoever]

Are you talking about Messianic congregations? The ones I've attended openly accept both Jewish and Gentile worshipers. The only problem I've noticed with this is when more Gentiles than Jews attend service: the sermons turn away from discussing Hebrew roots in the Bible and their relation to Yeshua, in favor of less Semitic themes. The Jewish culture in general is "watered down" or even erased to accomadate the Gentile worshipers. I'm not saying this happens to all Messianic congregations, but it did to the last one I attended and that was one of the top 5 congregations in the Northeast. I'm all for Jews and Gentiles worshiping together as long as they don't forget the purpose of a Messianic congregation--to maintain and strengthen the Jews' connection to their heritage while learning about/worshiping the Messiah. But I'll be honest, when it comes down to the bottom line, many Gentiles just don't seem to be comfortable in a congregation steeped in the Jewish culture. They fight to make it more "accomodating" for Gentile worshipers, and from that point on things are never the same.

Outside this type of congregation, I haven't come across any "hybrid" church where the Jewish culture was fully integrated into their service. I also know of several Messianic Jews who would take offense at being called a "Hebrew Christian", mainly because of the false Orthodox claim that, once a Jew becomes a "Christian" he's no longer "Jewish". To them, being called "Christian" is to throw the term "Jew" away like trash, and after years of fighting to be called "Messianic Jew" that's the last thing they want to do.

[Hootmon]

Thanks for you detailed response! Are you talking about Messianic congregations? The ones I've attended openly accept both Jewish and Gentile worshipers. The only problem I've noticed with this is when more Gentiles than Jews attend service: the sermons turn away from discussing Hebrew roots in the Bible and their relation to Yeshua, in favor of less Semitic themes. The Jewish culture in general is "watered down" or even erased to accomadate the Gentile worshipers. I'm not saying this happens to all Messianic congregations, but it did to the last one I attended and that was one of the top 5 congregations in the Northeast. That's a good example of what Id like to avoid. The whole idea is to embrace both the 'jewish-ness' and the 'gentile-ness' of Christianity, without the Gentile part overwhelming the Jewish part.



I'm all for Jews and Gentiles worshiping together as long as they don't forget the purpose of a Messianic congregation--to maintain and strengthen the Jews' connection to their heritage while learning about/worshiping the Messiah. :nod

That, and 'acculturating' the Gentile to the Jewish heritage. So much of Scripture only really makes sense when viewed from a Jewish perspective. Many (most?) main-line denomonations have lost this connection over the centuries with so-called 'replacement theology' being the worst offender.



But I'll be honest, when it comes down to the bottom line, many Gentiles just don't seem to be comfortable in a congregation steeped in the Jewish culture. They fight to make it more "accomodating" for Gentile worshipers, and from that point on things are never the same. Percisely what Id like to avoid. If anythng, Gentile worshippers need to be more accomodating to the believing Jewish remnant...Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.



I also know of several Messianic Jews who would take offense at being called a "Hebrew Christian", mainly because of the false Orthodox claim that, once a Jew becomes a "Christian" he's no longer "Jewish". To them, being called "Christian" is to throw the term "Jew" away like trash, and after years of fighting to be called "Messianic Jew" that's the last thing they want to do. Being a Jew (or Gentile) isnt a matter of 'conversion'. Its a matter of heritage and lineage.

Its a shame that some Jews reject other Jews as a Jew can never become 'un-Jewish', just as a Gentile cannot become a decendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[Whosoever]

Sounds like you have a good handle on the issue, Hootmon. :): I wish everyone was as serious about it as you.

Being a Jew (or Gentile) isnt a matter of 'conversion'. Its a matter of heritage and lineage.I agree. I was just mentioning how some find the term "Hebrew Christian" irritating because of the way Orthodox Judaism treats Jews who have found Yeshua. I personally don't mind either term, although I'm more used to "Messianic Jew" myself.

[Hootmon]

Sounds like you have a good handle on the issue, Hootmon. :): I wish everyone was as serious about it as you. Thanks!

[Paul]

Hey Hootman,

I'm reading through a book you may be interested in. It's called "The Messiah In The Old Testament In Light Of Rabbinical Light Of Writings". It is fasinating stuff and it's free to read online...

http://www.kolumbus.fi/hjussila/rsla/messiah.html

They also have The Messiah In The New Testament and other books.

[Hootmon]

Thanks, Paul. Bookmarked.

[Paul]

Thanks, Paul. Bookmarked.

I think you'll like it. Messianic prophecy is becoming my favorite area of bible study.

So much of Scripture only really makes sense when viewed from a Jewish perspective.

This is something I'm beginning to see too. Especially after some objections to OT law have been raised in Apolo over the last few weeks.

[yieldedandstill]

This is so hard for me to express. The Spirit in me groans - for the Messianic, and for the Christian. My congregation and my church teach and preach from different perspectives. Each of them alone is only a part. They are both mostly right, but they are incomplete. I’ve tried to attend just one, or the other. But God is keeping me in both. God is joining the two in me. Yes, I do think the two can be combined, and WILL be combined, as more and more are made aware.
“For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.” Luke 12:48

[EllKayBee]

A good web site to check out Messianic Christians' observance of the biblical holidays from a Messianic perspective is:www.biblicalholidays.com
We are planning to celebrate these feasts which point so clearly to Jesus.
They even offer a book that is comprehensive in preparing a family celebration for each of these holidays or you may download excerpts at their site. These feast/holidays give us a larger picture of Who God is and His faithfulness and sovereignty. It is a very serious worship/study that I look forward to. The first one is coming up in mid-September. We are having friends over to help us celebrate each of them. All of us are Gentiles who earnestly love God and don't want to miss any teaching that will draw us closer to Him. It is a wonderful experience for anyone who wants to broaden their understanding about the nature of our God, Who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[Charity4Ever]

Thanks for those resources.

I'm going to be taking an introductory Judaism course next semester so (although I don't think our teacher is Messianic) I can more fully understand Scripture--since it is written primarily from a Jewish perspective.

I believe Judaism and Christianity will be combined in the end-days to a large extent (when the Jews will finally see Jesus as the Messiah), and it is important to understand it because eventually Christians will be the only friends the Jews and their land will have left.

[pilgrimian]

Thanks for those resources.

I'm going to be taking an introductory Judaism course next semester so (although I don't think our teacher is Messianic) I can more fully understand Scripture--since it is written primarily from a Jewish perspective.

Most likely your instructor will be of Rabbinic Judasim...not Biblical Judaism. Unfortunately, there are some liberals within the Messianic community who believe that some Jews today will inherit eternal life without accepting Yeshua. So be careful in choosing your Messianic Congregation.

Ours is very good...and very conservative...and therefore very dispensational and accurate in doctrine (thank the Lord!). Anyone in Southern California--and all over are welcome to come attend


Ben David Messianic Jewish Congregation (http://www.bendavidmjc.org)

We're currently having a series of sermons on apologetics. The first Saturday in September a fellow from the Creation Research Institute will be speaking there.

Come have some great fellowship with us...and some tasty bagels and locks!

I'm Gentile, by the way.

I believe Judaism and Christianity will be combined in the end-days to a large extent (when the Jews will finally see Jesus as the Messiah), and it is important to understand it because eventually Christians will be the only friends the Jews and their land will have left.

Yes, but thankfully many Jews are now coming to the Lord! Many in Rabbinic Judaism, and Hassidic Judaism are coming to Yeshua...the Promised Messiah.

Messianic Christology is one of the best books I've ever read--please see my Ariel Ministries link. Dr. Fruchtenbaum has been an exceptional blessing in my life...in fact, it is through him that the Lord brought me to my beautiful wife. And when we are in Michigan next month it is Dr. Fruchtenbaum who will walk her down the aisle (since her dad lives in Colombia).

Shalom!
Matthew

[Hootmon]

:bump

[cindyw]

A good web site to check out Messianic Christians' observance of the biblical holidays from a Messianic perspective is:www.biblicalholidays.com


Thanks for that site EllKay!

[Shamgar]

It's comforting to know that Messianic congregations have Gentiles participating as well. I knew a guy (a Gentile like me) who was reading some weird books/articles from Messianic Jews saying that Gentiles and Jews who are saved in the present age form two separate groups. I'm sure this isn't a representative view of Messianic Jews. The implication is that there is still a barrier of separation between Jew and Gentile, despite the testimony of the book of Ephesians. Thank the Lord that He has made one new man out of the two!

[EllKayBee]

Thanks, Pilgrimian, for the info on "The Footsteps of the Messiah."
I ordered it this afternoon and look forward to its arrival. Also, it was new to me that not all Messianic congregations think that a person has to be born again as clearly stated by Jesus. I just assumed that the word Messianic in the name of their church took care of that, but I guess I was wrong. It sounds like you have a really good congregation there in So. Cal.; I'm trying not to be envious. We live in a rural area where just about all the local churches are either "purpose driven" or very weak in some other aspect. No one ever mentions the words Hebraic roots or Messianic. In an earlier post of mine in this same thread, I mentioned that our family and some friends are planning to observe the Biblical holidays. Nowadays, people oftentimes just have to do things on their own, apart from an organized church. :nod

[pilgrimian]

It's comforting to know that Messianic congregations have Gentiles participating as well. I knew a guy (a Gentile like me) who was reading some weird books/articles from Messianic Jews saying that Gentiles and Jews who are saved in the present age form two separate groups. I'm sure this isn't a representative view of Messianic Jews. The implication is that there is still a barrier of separation between Jew and Gentile, despite the testimony of the book of Ephesians. Thank the Lord that He has made one new man out of the two!

That is very peculiar...if not to say that it's unbiblical! Amen, we are one new man!

Thanks, Pilgrimian, for the info on "The Footsteps of the Messiah."
I ordered it this afternoon and look forward to its arrival. Also, it was new to me that not all Messianic congregations think that a person has to be born again as clearly stated by Jesus. I just assumed that the word Messianic in the name of their church took care of that, but I guess I was wrong. It sounds like you have a really good congregation there in So. Cal.; I'm trying not to be envious. We live in a rural area where just about all the local churches are either "purpose driven" or very weak in some other aspect. No one ever mentions the words Hebraic roots or Messianic. In an earlier post of mine in this same thread, I mentioned that our family and some friends are planning to observe the Biblical holidays. Nowadays, people oftentimes just have to do things on their own, apart from an organized church. :nod

Glad you ordered Footsteps! You'll enjoy it, I'm sure! It was such a blessing to me...and then such an honor to do the artwork on the front, and the charts inside with the revision.

Where in Missouri are you? My grandparents live in Jefferson City...and my dad is originally from Moberly. Goodness, I love Missouri. Sorry to hear about the weak doctrine at some of those churches, though. That was the same case in a number of the churches I went to back in Michigan (where I'm originally from). Whenever you're in Orange, California...you're more than welcome to come to Ben David!

It is very unfortunate that many churches don't appreciate the Hebrew roots of our faith. I think it would better explain some things that many Gentiles get confused about--concerning baptism, among other topics.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[blitzkreig]

Ive been reading several books by Arnold Frushtenbaum lately, most recently the one titled Hebrew Christianity (http://www.ariel.org/catbooks.html#hc)..Have you read his book "ISRAELOLOGY" yet? I read a truncated version of it which were posted as outline notes from University courses that he had given. I think I will get the book next. Christmas is coming and I am making my list :lol

[Hootmon]

Have you read his book "ISRAELOLOGY" yet? I read a truncated version of it which were posted as outline notes from University courses that he had given. I think I will get the book next. Christmas is coming and I am making my list :lol I havent read it yet, but its in my 'stack of stuff' to read.

I think I have most of AF's catalog now...

[StinkerBell]

Ok some insight into me....my grandparents raised me for the most part, and my grandpa is Jewish. Although I am a Christian, I feel so much more comfortable around Jewish people (usually older and with a plate of food!). NetHog and myslef bought our home from Messianic Jews (and we still after 5 years have a relationship with this couple). I get very excited when our Church goen into Jewish tradition (we had passover service, I really enjoyed it). SO, all this information above has given me something to think about...thanks.