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BHiles
July 15th, 2004, 12:52 PM
"Show me Chapter and Verse"

A common phrase by people when a subject of Biblical principle has been taught in which there is disagreement. The Bible is full of principles in which we can govern our lives by as direced through the Holy Spirit. The scripture may not state every single wrong situation that we can place ourselves in but in is clear and inexhaustably filled with principles when applied make for a more fruitful life.

Let me give a few examples:

In our family we have certain rules. Some of these rules in fact most of them cannot be found in scripture to the letter but they do have Biblical principles.

Dating: Our sons are not allowed to car date. They can group date or court with either family but car dating is not allowed. It is a very old fashioned principle to not allow oneself to be placed in a position of of knowing temptation. Is someone sinning by car dating? Well in my family yes because it breaks the rule. My oldest is 21 and my middle is almost 16. We teach our children that their first kiss should be at the marriage alter. We teach our children not to touch a women and that touching of a woman is reserved for marriage. My oldest has been dating His girlfriend for 3 1/2 years and has told me that He has honored this principle and intends to until marriage. It is quite common at our church to witness the first kiss between a man and wife at the pronouncement by our pastor. It is quite a special thing. Where the Chapter and Verse? Well you could make many applications of Scripture but this one comes to mind. 1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Yes I know what the word touch means so save the explanations. But if my son were to "stumble" in this area and hold her hand:): that is a far cry from stumbling from a rule of "fondling allowed but no fornication" to fornication now isn't it.

Curfew: Curfew in my house is 11:00pm. Only on a special occasion is there an allowance for extension. I want my house settled before 11:00pm. I want to know where everyone is and everyone settled in for the evening. It is based on a Biblical principle. Proverbs 7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement, 7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, 8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, 9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: 10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart. 11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) But It also is backed with experiencial principles of myself and other believers/teachers/pastors of how to raise young people. "Nothing good happens after midnight".

Many would call me old fashioned, too strict, repressive and a whole host of other things but these things and more were given to me by generations of pastors who preached the Word of God and have the experience of years in counseling many who have chosen a wrong path. My oldest child is now in his third year of seminary planning to become a pastor and My middle son is planning a life on the mission field.

There have been many discussions on this board dealing with issues that although there may be no chapter and verse or there are chapters and verses by the multitude but there are examples that seem to be the exception to the rule where everything worked out ok It still no less makes it a Biblical principle in which we should guide our lives by.

One man who was used greatly by God to create the children of Israel was Jacob. Jacob had a wife named Leah and married her sister named Rachel and then had children by both of them and their two handmaidens Zilpah and Bilhah that became the the fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel. Gen 30 So what gives? Does this mean that because God used him and there is no mention of him being sinful of this in the Bible that this is a pattern that we should use for our lives? Heavens No! The Bible shows us in principle that a Man ought to be married to one Woman and tells us this in scripture.

Now as to the other areas of discussion Biblical Principles should be looked for in every instance - in what we watch, what we wear, whatever we do. We can't just look for chapter and verse. Look for the principle that God is putting across also listen to wise counsel and pastors who teach Biblical principles based on their own counseling experience and Biblical application. Too many times we as Christians want to find the loophole to squeeze in what we want to do instead finding out the of the Heart of the Father. If it says it is not wise to do something in any manner and at any point in time even if it is under the law then we ought to scrutinize it and be prone to error on the side of caution to make sure that we are following the Godly prinicple set forth.

Make your own application.

I Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Christine
July 15th, 2004, 12:56 PM
Brent,

If I see one suggestion on this thread about it being a continuation of your smoking/drinking debate, it is history.

:):

frisian1970
July 15th, 2004, 12:57 PM
:tape
:bolt

frisian1970
July 15th, 2004, 12:59 PM
To be serious, I find what you have done with your family admirable (sincerely, not being sarcastic).

lookingskyward
July 15th, 2004, 01:10 PM
Your post reminded me of what Pastor preached about on Sunday.

All through the Bible we are told to expect persecution. But are we really persecuted??

Generally christians are not persuecuted. Is it because we have confomed more to what society calls the norm and less to what is biblically sound?

Probably, as a whole, christians look, act, think, dress, and go the same places the rest of the world goes. So how do they know we are different? True, no one wants to be persecuted. But if we are told to expect it and it is not happening what does that mean?

You sound like a Godly father.

B A N E
July 15th, 2004, 01:18 PM
Check Daniel regarding persecution.
Persecution is NOT a clear indicator of salvation nor indicator of maturity in our
walks.

Jael
July 15th, 2004, 01:21 PM
I agree with everything you've said...in fact, here is post of mine in which I said much the same thing. However, the application of principles is not an exact science, therefore there will never be perfect conformity on every issue. Futhermore, even if we did apply Biblical principles in exactly the same way, our resulting lifestyles would still all be different, because we are each individuals, with different temptations and struggles.

1) If scripture explicity forbids something...a Christian should not do it. For example, fornication is explicitly forbidden under the old and new covenants.

2) If scripture does not explicitly forbid something, but there is a clear scriptural principle that applies to a situation...a Christian should not do it. For example, the Bible does not forbid internet pornography. But there are plenty of clear principles that make it obvious a Christian should not be engaged with pornography.

3) If there is no clear prohibition or scriptural principle that applies, then the individual conscience, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, should determine what is permissible for each of us.

If you are going to say that a certain practice falls into category 1 or 2, that's fine. But you must be able to show from scripture why that practice is not permissible. And that means dealing with the scriptures that seem not to fit your view as well. If you can't show from scripture that a certain practice violates a Biblical prohibition or a clear Biblical principle, then it is probably a category 3 issue that should be left to individual conscience.

oops...edited to take out a reference to a particularly contentious topic. ;):

lookingskyward
July 15th, 2004, 01:39 PM
"Persecution is NOT a clear indicator of salvation nor indicator of maturity in our walks."

I didn't say it was.

rekker
July 15th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Bhiles -

I applaud your standards, especially with regards to dating. I think the whole idea of dating is ridiculous ("Let's be committed to each other until one of us decides we no longer want to be committed to each other.") I am much more in favor of the courtship model.

Anyway, good for you for setting standards.

BHiles
July 20th, 2004, 10:11 PM
bump

sandy111
December 3rd, 2006, 01:08 AM
moderation in all things....

being too strict can set things going the way we dont want them too.
being to easy, one has no inner restrictions needed.

BHiles
December 3rd, 2006, 01:35 AM
moderation in all things....


Is not from scripture. This is a man made philosophy.

Temperate in all things is found in 1Co 9:25 and means to be personally self controlled in all things. Meaning to use self governance and self rule (mastery) so that you are never out of control. It means to be strict with oneself. It never meant to be lax or not strict over self.

edgtheo
December 3rd, 2006, 01:53 AM
BHiles,
No, you are wrong. The concept of "moderation in all things" is in the Bible:

Ecclesiastes 7:15-17
15 In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these:
a righteous man perishing in his righteousness,
and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?

17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time?

BHiles
December 3rd, 2006, 02:08 AM
BHiles,
No, you are wrong. The concept of "moderation in all things" is in the Bible:

Ecclesiastes 7:15-17
15 In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these:
a righteous man perishing in his righteousness,
and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?

17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time?

That is a clear misapplication of scripture. According to the way you are using that verse you are implying that the Bible also says you should be somewhat wicked just not overly so. That is not what Scripture teaches. I'll refer you to the great revivalist George Whitefield for the proper context of that passage: http://www.anglicanlibrary.org/whitefield/sermons/9.htm

Scripture is clear that temperance and self denial is to be part of the christian life. We are to deny the flesh. The Holy Spirit teaches us this and teaches how we crucify the flesh daily. Many use the idea of "moderation in all things" which I repeat is not in scripture as a manner that all things are ok as long as you do not go overvboard. That is not what scripture teaches. Both in principal and explicitely.

You do it your way I'll do it mine but I can tell you for certain that my oldest did get married in June after graduating seminary in May, kissing his bride for the first time at the alter. The purity of that day was an extreme celebration for me and for others in the church as well. His joy was abundant knowing he completed this course of obedience and recieving all the blessings that came with it. Nothing can compare to the purity of that moment that God mercifully gave as my son showed character in obedience to his father and ultimately his Father.

carmen
December 3rd, 2006, 10:13 AM
If ya'll want to begin a new discussion on moderation, please feel free to open a new thread. This one is from 2004. Thanks :):