Christians should not drink alcohol

[Illusion]

...nor should anyone else.

Alcohol is a drug...a depressant. It causes people to use bad judgement.

be sober!

Biblical references:

Galatians 5:21

1 Timothy 3:3

Titus 1:7

Proverbs 23:29-31

1 Thessalonians 5:6

1 Peter 1:13

[frisian1970]

Caffeine is a drug, a stimulant!

[star_tigress]

What about cursing? I consistently see it on here yet I don't see them being convicted.

[Illusion]

Caffeine is a drug, a stimulant!
Then open a thread on it. This thread is not a joke.

[frisian1970]

What about cursing? I consistently see it on here yet I don't see them being convicted.


:confused

Or lying!

[Purple Kitten]

:confused Then how come Jesus turned water in to wine for his friends and followers to drink? :confused

[frisian1970]

Then open a thread on it. This thread is not a joke.

Hmm, then why is it in Anything Goes?

[Illusion]

What about cursing? I consistently see it on here yet I don't see them being convicted.Good observation...but off topic.

[star_tigress]

How is it off-topic when you are trying to convict other Christians here not to drink?

[Illusion]

:confused Then how come Jesus turned water in to wine for his friends and followers to drink? :confused
Maybe it was for a different purpose back then. I'm not an expert. BUT, you can't argue that our Lord hasn't told us to remain sober.

[katz4jesus]

There are a lot of things Christians shouldn't be doing!

How do you expect people to respond to "be sober"? :confused

I think all Christians who abuse alcohol, know that they shouldn't. I for one leave it to the Holy Spirit to convict me!

[Illusion]

How is it off-topic when you are trying to convict other Christians here not to drink?
If you wish to discuss cursing on the board then you should start a thread on it!

[star_tigress]

Maybe this thread should be closed because it's also could be perceived as "I'm a better Christian than you because I don't drink alcohol."

Each person has their own struggles.

Also if you wanted to be serious, post in "We That Struggle" not Anything Goes.

[katz4jesus]

Maybe this thread should be closed because it's also could be perceived as "I'm a better Christian than you because I don't drink alcohol."

Each person has their own struggles.

Also if you wanted to be serious, post in "We That Struggle" not Anything Goes.
That's just what I was thinking! :nod

[Illusion]

Hmm, then why is it in Anything Goes?
Does it really matter? I'm just saying that the consumption of alcohol is not an acceptable practice for Christians to engage in.

[Illusion]

Maybe this thread should be closed because it's also could be perceived as "I'm a better Christian than you because I don't drink alcohol."

Each person has their own struggles.

Also if you wanted to be serious, post in "We That Struggle" not Anything Goes.
Why close a thread that is promoting a healthy Christian life?

[Ajani]

Being sober and never having a drink are very different. I've had drinks. I've never been anything but sober. I've never drunk to excess, never had more than maybe 2 in a whole night.

Nowhere are we told to completely abstain from all alcohol. Sobriety and abstinance are completely different for the average person.

Now if you can't handle a drink and feel that you would get drunk from it, don't have it. But don't force that state of being onto others.

[frisian1970]

...nor should anyone else.

Alcohol is a drug...a depressant. It causes people to use bad judgement.

be sober!

Biblical references:

Galatians 5:21

Galatians 5
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


1 Timothy 3:3
1 Timothy 3


Overseers and Deacons

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[1] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.


Titus 1:7
Titus 1
7Since an overseer[2] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

Proverbs 23:29-31
Proverbs 23
29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!
They beat me, but I don't feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?"


1 Thessalonians 5:6
1 Thessalonians 5
7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

1 Peter 1:13
1 Peter 1:13
13Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.



These verses talk of drunkeness, not having a drink.

[Kyrie Eleison]

:confused Then how come Jesus turned water in to wine for his friends and followers to drink? :confused


The new wine of the Bible is different than the wine of today. They basically drank a lot of grape juice. Jesus used grapes to make a beverage, but there is no evidence that it was alcoholic.

Jesus spoke of new wine in old wineskins as something his audience would clearly understand. Alcohol comes from fermented grapes.


This is a devisive topic, some Christians think it is a sin to get drunk, other Christians believe it is a sin to drink alcohol, at all.

[star_tigress]

Why close a thread that is promoting a healthy Christian life?Because as Kyrie said - it is devisive and it's also a personal struggle. (Not for me, but I know for others.)

If you want to convict a person on their actions, don't make it into something that they "have" to do. It's akin to judging, not supporting. That is not a healthy Christian thing to do.

[frisian1970]

Does it really matter? I'm just saying that the consumption of alcohol is not an acceptable practice for Christians to engage in.

Drunkness is not acceptable, not drinking period is not scriptural, unless you have some other verses you would like to present.

And just for the record, I am an alcoholic. I AM living in sin and battling that problem. However, those that are not addicts or problem drinkers are not sinning according to scripture by merely having a drink. The verses specify drunkeness.

[katz4jesus]

I think the problem is in the original post, you say "be sober" like it is always a choice. People who struggle with alcohol can't just stop and "be sober" because you say so.

That is a struggle that must be given over to God so that He may help you overcome it. I don't think anyone would disagree that drunkeness is a sin, but you made it sound so simplistic.

[Paul]

Moved to a more appropriate forum.

Please, please keep this thread civil.

[Illusion]

Because as Kyrie said - it is devisive and it's also a personal struggle. (Not for me, but I know for others.)

If you want to convict a person on their actions, don't make it into something that they "have" to do. It's akin to judging, not supporting. That is not a healthy Christian thing to do.
Quoting the Bible is divisive?

[star_tigress]

Quoting the Bible is divisive?
Misquoting it is.

Frisian corrected it. :):

In all, I agree with Danna.

[RobinB]

Wasn't it Paul who told Timothy to use small amounts of wine to help his stomach? It's been proven as an aid to digestion (very small amounts) and good for the heart.

[frisian1970]

Quoting the Bible is divisive?

You didn't quote the Bible, you referenced verses that suggest drunkeness, not drinking at all.

[Ajani]

No, telling others that they have to believe as you do, without solid bibilical evidence is. You're quoting drunkeness, not having a drink.

It's obviously a very sore spot with you, and I believe that we need to be sensitve to our brothers and sisters who struggle with issues. If my having a glass of wine in front of you would cause you to stumble and get drunk, I wouldn't have that drink. I'd still drink at home, if I wanted to, but I wouldn't do it around you.

[magnolia]

Maybe it was for a different purpose back then. I'm not an expert. BUT, you can't argue that our Lord hasn't told us to remain sober.Doubt it. God is CONSISTENT and never changes.

And just drinking alcohol won't blur judgement. If you get DRUNK off alcohol it will blur judgement.

[Kyrie Eleison]

Quoting the Bible is divisive?


I don't know that the tone of this remark is conducive to a sober discussion, pun intended. There are many ways to be sober as Christians.

For me, personally, the challenge would be knowing when I was crossing the line to drunkeness. With an alcoholic father, and my own addictive tendancies well known to me, I pass.

[Illusion]

I used to drink. But no more. Drinking should be avoided even though it's being touted as healthy if used in "moderation". Beware...it is a snare of Satan.

I think the Bible is clear about drinking alcohol.

My purpose in starting this thread was not to judge or convict.

[Hootmon]

And just for the record, I am an alcoholic. I AM living in sin and battling that problem. That would be a fair description of my situation too.


However, those that are not addicts or problem drinkers are not sinning according to scripture by merely having a drink. The verses specify drunkeness.I agree.

Its analogous to simply 'eating' and being a 'glutton'. Its a matter of degree...

You could say the same thing about 'working' and being a 'workaholic'.

[LaMontre]

...nor should anyone else.

Alcohol is a drug...a depressant. It causes people to use bad judgement.

be sober!

Biblical references:

Galatians 5:21

1 Timothy 3:3

Titus 1:7

Proverbs 23:29-31

1 Thessalonians 5:6

1 Peter 1:13

The point is well taken. And I agree, as alcohol can be deadly. In fact I know it to be. My mothers side of the family, her Father, Mother, 2 brothers and 1 sister. All dead from alcohol coupled with the poor judgement it brings. (i.e. smoking, not taking care of yourself, etc.)

We just buried the last member of her family 2 weeks ago. (her sister)

Wine, is not the same as beer and hard liquor. Wine in moderation can be a healthy thing. Modern medicine has also discovered this.

But alcohol is used by the enemy to steal, kill, and destroy. Take my mothers word for it.

[edit to add]Her sisters surviving sons, are both also alcoholics. The youngest son has completely blown his brains out with alcohol. He cannot carry on a coherant conversation drunk or sober most of the time. Her husband is also an alcoholic. All of them have various health and emotional problems.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

The new wine of the Bible is different than the wine of today. They basically drank a lot of grape juice. Jesus used grapes to make a beverage, but there is no evidence that it was alcoholic.

Respectfully, I think the rest of the verse contradicts that...

John 2

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I've always interpretted this as saying that generally good wine is served first, and then after the folks have kicked back a few, they serve the poorer quality wine as folks are less likely to notice... which would obviously imply alcohol.. I also think it is a tad silly to think that at a wedding feast they are either drinking only grape juice, and that if they were drinking wine, that they were excited when it was replaced by something non alcoholic, and considered that the good stuff....

I also can't imagine a lot of disappointment about running out of juice... I mean, who cares? Though honestly after attending a few fraternity keggers, running our of alcohol can be quite a crisis at a party...

I think interpretting this to mean anything other than "wine" is a huge stretch...

I think that wine is very healthy in moderation, and that the Bible speaks of Drunkeness (getting drunk on a regular basis), not moderate consumption...

Here is a link to a study on this issue...

http://www.tektonics.org/nowine.html

Just my .02

-Ted

[Patty T]

The new wine of the Bible is different than the wine of today. They basically drank a lot of grape juice. Jesus used grapes to make a beverage, but there is no evidence that it was alcoholic.



Genesis 9

20 And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard.

21 Then he drank of the wine and was drunk and became uncovered in his tent.



It appears the wine of the old testament was indeed very strong and not just grape juice.

[frisian1970]

The point is well taken. And I agree, as alcohol can be deadly. In fact I know it to be. My mothers side of the family, her Father, Mother, 2 brothers and 1 sister. All dead from alcohol coupled with the poor judgement it brings. (i.e. smoking, not taking care of yourself, etc.)

We just buried the last member of her family 2 weeks ago. (her sister)

Wine, is not the same as beer and hard liquor. Wine in moderation can be a healthy thing. Modern medicine has also discovered this.

But alcohol is used by the enemy to steal, kill, and destroy. Take my mothers word for it.

[edit to add]Her sisters surviving sons, are both also alcoholics. The youngest son has completely blown his brains out with alcohol. He cannot carry on a coherant conversation drunk or sober most of the time. Her husband is also an alcoholic. All of them have various health and emotional problems.

:nod Indeed it is not something to "play" around with whether prone to addiction or not.

[HeIsEnough]

I would comment here, but my eye has a big plank in it. But I will say that those who struggle with this, not me, already know it is a problem. Be encouraged, keep looking to Him for your help and deliverance, the Lord is faithful even if we are not, for His holy name.

[frisian1970]

I would comment here, but my eye has a big plank in it. But I will say that those who struggle with this, not me, already know it is a problem. Be encouraged, keep looking to Him for your help and deliverance, the Lord is faithful even if we are not, for His holy name.


:):

[Paul]

It's nice to see that this thread took a turn for the better. :):

[mustardseed]

A couple of threads here have stated that the wine of the Bible was non-alcoholic grape juice. Where does anyone get that information, is there anything that makes it a historic fact rather than wishful thinking? In studying that time and place in history, there certainly isn't any evidence of which I'm aware that wine was anything other than wine. Water was often polluted, especially in cities, and wine was what people drank daily.

Becoming drunken, and unable to restrain yourself from sin, is obviously wrong. If you struggle with this, you have my prayers. But I can't see how a glass of wine with dinner makes me less of a Christian.

[Chris4Christ]

Then open a thread on it. This thread is not a joke.
That was a very valid comment by Frisian on a thread topic that really has no Biblical support. If you're saying that we CAN'T DRINK ALCOHOL by virtue of the fact that it's a "drug," then you also can't consume anything with caffeine in it for the very same reason. And you also shouldn't be consuming any prescription medication or aspirin or Tylenol or Pepto Bismal or any other medication...because, hey, they are all "drugs."

Bottom line, there IS a difference between having a drink of alcohol...and getting DRUNK. And that is what Scripture tells us, not to be gluttons (by overimbibing) and not to get DRUNK.

[Kyrie Eleison]

Respectfully, I think the rest of the verse contradicts that...

John 2

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I've always interpretted this as saying that generally good wine is served first, and then after the folks have kicked back a few, they serve the poorer quality wine as folks are less likely to notice... which would obviously imply alcohol.. I also think it is a tad silly to think that at a wedding feast they are either drinking only grape juice, and that if they were drinking wine, that they were excited when it was replaced by something non alcoholic, and considered that the good stuff....

I also can't imagine a lot of disappointment about running out of juice... I mean, who cares? Though honestly after attending a few fraternity keggers, running our of alcohol can be quite a crisis at a party...

I think interpretting this to mean anything other than "wine" is a huge stretch...

I think that wine is very healthy in moderation, and that the Bible speaks of Drunkeness (getting drunk on a regular basis), not moderate consumption...

Here is a link to a study on this issue...

http://www.tektonics.org/nowine.html

Just my .02

-Ted


Yes, I've wondered that same thing, but it's a matter of interpretation, isn't it? You could be right, but we all see things through what we perceive as being a hard, fast reality until someone else's reality shows us there are other ways of thinking. I think it depends on what was considered "better" at that moment. To me, when I drank alcohol, "better" wine was strictly about taste, not alcohol level. I imagine that when our Lord makes a beverage, it is amazing in taste and refreshment!

Different words are used, all translated for us as "wine" for us, so it requires some word searching. "Gleukos" means sweet, new wine. "Oinos" is the general word for "wine", as in fermented grapes.

The customs of the times varied, there was certainly fermented wine, but new wine abounded, too. There were financial issues, health issues about water, too.

I've been to many weddings where no alcohol was served, but many others thought champagne was necessary for celebrating, so I wouldn't call it silly to assume that there was no alcohol at a wedding or that disappointment in running out can only be about alcohol. Thirst is a very real factor.

I have a lot of personal baggage on this issue, admittedly, and I have seen people swear they are sober while falling down drunk. I've been less than sober myself and thought I was fine, but I was deceived.

There was great harm caused in my family due to alcoholism. I am not saying it isn't possible to drink alcohol without getting drunk, but I do feel that for myself, it's not good for my health. It's like anything, satan used our appetites for destruction whenever he can flame our lusts to turn from sober mindedness. I think we all need to be careful with what we say to other Christians and what we eat or drink in front of them, we might cause someone to stumble.

I think my kids are better off growing up with 2 parents who never drink, than with me taking chances on my pride that I won't become an alcoholic down the line, like my father, when I know my proclivities towards addiction. I have to watch myself, not just with alcohol, either. That's why I said there is more than one way to be sober as a Christian.

[cenimo]

Perry Stone said that the "wine" of Biblical times was very weak, that a glass of today's wine would be the equivalent of 25 - 33 glasses of wine from then.

I think the general consensus is have a drink but don't get drunk. Human nature being human nature a lot of people probably would be better off never imbibing in Satan Sauce

[Kyrie Eleison]

A couple of threads here have stated that the wine of the Bible was non-alcoholic grape juice. Where does anyone get that information, is there anything that makes it a historic fact rather than wishful thinking? In studying that time and place in history, there certainly isn't any evidence of which I'm aware that wine was anything other than wine. Water was often polluted, especially in cities, and wine was what people drank daily.

Becoming drunken, and unable to restrain yourself from sin, is obviously wrong. If you struggle with this, you have my prayers. But I can't see how a glass of wine with dinner makes me less of a Christian.


Like many things, I think Christians have to turn to the Holy Spirit for guidance on this issue. When Jesus spoke of new wine going into old skins, the message was clear. Fermentation and non-fermentation. The skins would burst....that's one way we know they also drank grape juice, which isn't just wishful thinking. I'm certainly not saying they didn't also drink fermented grape juice, we know they did. Jesus was speaking also of a new life and old habits.

I'm off to another topic, because as I said, this issue is devisive.

I hope to come across respectfully, and I confess that I cannot always drink in moderation, and have repented of alcohol for this reason.

[Viro]

This is what I think.


Why in the world do so many Christians (myself included) see how far up to the line we can creep? Why do we let our tolerance become so lax, so the opposite of starving for and seeking holiness? Are we not supposed to RUN away from evil!?! Then why do we continue to voluntarily pay money to go see R rated movies, to package stores, to the very merchants of evil int his world? Be in the world but NOT OF the world, no? I for one do not drink. I conclude, why even give the devil an inch? He will exploit you and claim a foothold in your life. I believe for me at least, that drinking is a sin, for my own life. Just like people in Paul's day thought that eating meat sacrificed to idols was sinning, but others did not. Drinking may not innately be a sin, but I say, why even play with something that could explode out of one's control? I think it is wise for Christians to abstain from all appearances of evil. Just couldn't see Jesus downing a Coors light while witnessing to someone. IMHO.

[NetHog]

The new wine of the Bible is different than the wine of today. They basically drank a lot of grape juice. Jesus used grapes to make a beverage, but there is no evidence that it was alcoholic.

Jesus spoke of new wine in old wineskins as something his audience would clearly understand. Alcohol comes from fermented grapes.
You are correct that Alcohol comes from fermented grapes. I have to disagree with you on the statement that "they drank grape juice."
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. "drunk" is via Strongs dictionary "methuō" "From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en)." No unfermented grape juice here.

1 Timothy 3:3
This is
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; "given to wine" via Strings dictionary "paroinos" "From G3844 and G3631; staying near wine, that is, tippling (a toper): - given to wine." ... ie, you should stay sober.

Now, if you use 1 Ti 3:3 as a verse that you should not drink alcohol, and that wine is unfermented (which is it? wine is fermented or unfermented, because if the latter, then 1 Ti is saying we should not drink grape juice :confused) how do you reconcile it to, further on,
1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. Paul's not saying "make your water tasty" but to add the alcohol (only a little mind you) for it's purification properties.

Now it is true that John the Baptist was told not to drink
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; Strong drink is "sikera" "Of Hebrew origin [H7941]; an intoxicant, that is, intensely fermented liquor: - strong drink." (Think Vodka, etc) And he was told not to drink wine ... again, I presume there would have been nothing wrong if it was just grape juice :confused.

But the point to make there, is that there is something to be said about abstaining from wine & strong drink... since John was commanded to do so, but there is also times to drink wine as Timothy was told to do so.

Food for thought.

Jamie

[AnotherOldGuy]

The new wine of the Bible is different than the wine of today. They basically drank a lot of grape juice. Jesus used grapes to make a beverage, but there is no evidence that it was alcoholic.

Jesus spoke of new wine in old wineskins as something his audience would clearly understand. Alcohol comes from fermented grapes.

Wine IS fermented grape juice. The alcohol comes from the oxidation of sugar into alcohol.

There IS evidence it was alcoholic.

(Acts 2:13) Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine."

Luke records that the Jews thought those speaking in tongues were drunk (drinking new wine).

"New" wine would have a higher alcohol content than "old" wine as the alcohol is further oxidized into acetic acid (vinegar).


(John 2:10) And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!"

The 'inferior' wine would have further oxidized to contain more acid - so it was served later when people might not notice. But, Jesus' wine was good.


Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Being drunk is a sin - you are relinquishing control to something other than the Holy Spirit. Some can't handle any alcohol - they should totally abstain and those around them should not tempt them.

(1 Tim 5:23) No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.


(1 Tim 3:8) Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,

(Titus 2:3) the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to [/i]much[/i] wine, teachers of good things;

[Ajani]

I like the eating/gluttony analogy. Gluttony is a sin. Having a meal is not. Drunkenness is a sin. Having a drink is not.

[Jael]

1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons grave, not doubletongued, not given to [b]much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

If the wine in these verses is understood to be grape juice, then Paul is saying "not given to much grape juice"...this doesn't make sense - why would the apostle be rationing grape juice? On the other hand, if it is fermented wine, then it is clear that he was not issuing a blanket prohibition, because he said not given to MUCH wine (not over-indulgent or dependent on alchohol). I don't see that the Bible mandates total abstinence. I do see that the Bible mandates self-control (in this area and every other). We are told not to let anything control us (even permissible things):

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Paul clearly identified the consumption of wine as a Romans 14 issue:

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Our "right" to consume alchohol is subordinate to our need to walk in love around each other. We should not have wine around anyone who will be offended or led to stumble because of it. We should not be dependent on alchohol to any degee (for instance, if you need it to unwind, there's a problem). We should follow the leading of the Holy Spirit - I do believe He will convict a Christian not to drink at all if alchohol will be a destructive influence in that person's life. The problem comes when we try to impose our personal convictions on each other. If we could just follow Romans 14, we could all co-exist quite nicely.

Jael <--who has had one glass of wine in 10 years

[Elizabeth_S]

The new wine of the Bible is different than the wine of today. They basically drank a lot of grape juice. Jesus used grapes to make a beverage, but there is no evidence that it was alcoholic.

Jesus spoke of new wine in old wineskins as something his audience would clearly understand. Alcohol comes from fermented grapes.


This is a devisive topic, some Christians think it is a sin to get drunk, other Christians believe it is a sin to drink alcohol, at all.
I have heard this before. But where is the source that wine in the olden times was not an alcoholic drink?

I am not being confrontational. Just curious where that info comes from. Cause the bible does talk about not being drunk and it is definitely a bad thing(nothing about drinking, just not to be excessive, as in drunkeness).

What were they getting drunk on? Which drink did they use for alcoholic beverages?

[Ruckus]

Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky.

Martin Luther

http://www.albatrus.org/english/potpourri/quotes/martin_luther_quotes.htm

[Elizabeth_S]

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Our "right" to consume alchohol is subordinate to our need to walk in love around each other. We should not have wine around anyone who will be offended or led to stumble because of it. We should not be dependent on alchohol to any degee (for instance, if you need it to unwind, there's a problem). We should follow the leading of the Holy Spirit - I do believe He will convict a Christian not to drink at all if alchohol will be a destructive influence in that person's life. The problem comes when we try to impose our personal convictions on each other. If we could just follow Romans 14, we could all co-exist quite nicely.

So is it wrong to drink if drinking wine does not make anyone stumble?

[Jael]

So is it wrong to drink if drinking wine does not make anyone stumble?

I don't see that the Bible mandates total abstinence.

[StinkerBell]

Well if wine is just grape juice .....well maybe...just maybe you shouldnt drink grape juice in excess (cause it can cause diarrhea).

But I think that we are instructed not to drink too much(in excess).

well thats my two cents worth.

[frisian1970]

Well if wine is just grape juice .....well maybe...just maybe you shouldnt drink grape juice in excess (cause it can cause diarrhea).

But I think that we are instructed not to drink too much(in excess).

well thats my two cents worth.


:fish

[IbeleiveinJesus]

Kyrie,

I certainly understand where you are coming from, and deeply respect your decision not to drink.... In my fraternity we had a member, in whose family, almost every single male family member was an alcoholic, and he also made the decision not to drink.

It wasn't an easy decision for him, espescially given his environment.. but he felt he had a pretty good idea where he'ld end up if he indulged, and the decision was real straight forward.

I personally beleive that there is a genetic predisposition for alcoholism... those whose families' have a history of this really need to be careful... but most folks don't have this issue.. personally, though I am burdened by a great many temptations, alcoholism hasn't been one, and I don't see casual drinking as a sinful act... In general I see the decision to drink or not more as a personal issue, and less as a spiritual one, though I concede for some folks it could well be both... but that's just my .02

-Ted

[Joseph Eley]

Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

If strong drink is sin then why would it be recommended to anyone?

[antsinmypants]

Perry Stone said that the "wine" of Biblical times was very weak, that a glass of today's wine would be the equivalent of 25 - 33 glasses of wine from then.


The same kind of wine is still being made in israel and outside of israel.

One such kind is done by Manischevitz. 10% alchohol.

There are others, such as wine from the vines in Galilee, same place where Y'shua walked-- same proof 10%-15%.

People drink between 1-3 glasses (small) a meal.... from the same vines and the same methods of making it since forever.

[antsinmypants]

Wasn't it Paul who told Timothy to use small amounts of wine to help his stomach? It's been proven as an aid to digestion (very small amounts) and good for the heart.

You are correct, and it was also used because clean water was hard to come by

[antsinmypants]

A couple of threads here have stated that the wine of the Bible was non-alcoholic grape juice. Where does anyone get that information, is there anything that makes it a historic fact rather than wishful thinking? In studying that time and place in history, there certainly isn't any evidence of which I'm aware that wine was anything other than wine. Water was often polluted, especially in cities, and wine was what people drank daily.

JMHO, it's wishful thinking-- not to mention one can read Roman and Hebraic history, including Talmud to find that it was in fact real wine and not juice being had... not to mention the words being used mean wine as in it fermented on it's own-- not just juice made today so it's unfermented.

Without refridgeration, ALL kosher grape juice WILL ferment. It has no preservatives at all.. and even in the fridge for a month, will on it's own ferment!

[Hootmon]

Without refridgeration, ALL kosher grape juice WILL ferment. It has no preservatives at all.. and even in the fridge for a month, will on it's own ferment! :nod

Grapes are covered with natural yeasts. Although they will ferment on their own, yeast is added in modern winemaking in order to control the flavor as the yeast is a significant contributor.

[NetHog]

The same kind of wine is still being made in israel and outside of israel.

One such kind is done by Manischevitz. 10% alchohol.

There are others, such as wine from the vines in Galilee, same place where Y'shua walked-- same proof 10%-15%.

People drink between 1-3 glasses (small) a meal.... from the same vines and the same methods of making it since forever.
I may be naive here, but the type of wine I buy, when I buy it is normally around the 10%-15% mark... so are we talking same strength wine here?

Thanks Ants.

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth_S
So is it wrong to drink if drinking wine does not make anyone stumble?

Originally Posted by Jael
I don't see that the Bible mandates total abstinence.
Thanks Jael. :):

Sorry I was not clearer, I did not mean this just for you, several mentioned the stumble and equated it with total abstinance. I was just using the scripture posted to elicit responses. :D:

[antsinmypants]

I may be naive here, but the type of wine I buy, when I buy it is normally around the 10%-15% mark... so are we talking same strength wine here?

Thanks Ants.

:nod


and yeast typically is not involved in Kosher winemaking, or it couldn't be used during passover. Most all of the kosher wines I have used/drank have the "kosher for passover" label on them. :):

[BHiles]

Ok I'll post to give another voice to the Call for Abstinence.

There are laws given in scripture and there are Biblical principles by which it is best to govern ones life by.

We find that there are specific instances where alcohol is legitimately used: In the Bible We are told to give wine to the sick.
We are told to give it to the dying
We are told that Timothy was told to use it as medicine for His stomach.

So wine was perfectly legitimate as a medicne for illness. As today, I at times will take Nyquil which is 10% alchohol to help with a Cold or Flu.

However,
Alcohol is a psychoactive drug.
Alcohol is a depressant.
Alcohol is broken down by the liver at a set rate, which cannot be changed
Alcohol is an anesthetic
Alcohol is likely to make you less cautious
Alcohol impairs your judgment

It is also interesting to note that one drink is intoxicating. Not by religious standards. This is from scientific research..."Duration of Intoxication: The onset of the effects of one drink of alcohol is about 15 to 30 minutes, depending on stomach content. The effects can be felt for 30 to 90 minutes, with another 45 to 60 minutes to come down and an after effect of about 1 to 2 hours including sleepiness, agitation, anxiety, headache, thirst and hunger. Because alcohol is secreted through the liver and urine, it does not stay in the body for a long period of time. http://www.partnershipforawareness.org/alcohol.htm

All from one drink!



Modern wine is so much stonger in content today than it was in Biblical times. One glass will cause one to become intoxicated. There is no moderation in even one glass.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
drunk = methusko Greek: = to intoxicate
Intoxication interferes with the Holy Spirit's contol of oneself. We are not to be intoxicated at all. On glass of wine intoxicates us and we are in sin because we are to always be filled with the Spirit or Spirit controlled. Yes this is true with many things we do in our life. However this is a gateway sin which in many cases throughout the Bible and today in our lives leads us to other sin.


The Bible warns us over and over about the dangers of Wine and Strong Drink. Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Many, many examples are given of drinking of Wine and the sin that followed. It is clear that the Bible shows us a Biblical principle in which it is wise to govern our lives by.

Priest were never allowed to drink wine. An as New Testament Believers we are told that we have become priests. So again it is quite applicable.
Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:


"Jesus drank wine at the Lord's Supper"

Not true. This many times is given as an excuse by drinkers who probably more often drink beer than wine anyway but that is besides the point. Jesus drank grape juice at the Lord's Supper and we know this for two reasons.

1. Fermentation represented sin in the Bible just as leaven represents sin. The Fruit of the Vine had no Fermentation/corruption because we know that Christ's Blood had no sin. God is very big on representing Himself in exact terms.

2. It was called the Fruit of the Vine.
Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

All indications from scripture tell us that both in principle and in God's intent it is best that a believer not to partake of this substance for any other reason than as a medicine. And Yes, I am fully aware that we are not under the penalty of the Law anymore however it is most wise to take the Holy Spirit's advice in this area when contimplating for oneself how they should govern their life.

I Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

I highly doubt that when you get to heaven that God will scold you for being abstinent and not drinking enough alcohol.:):

[frisian1970]

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1485.html

Dear addicted caffeine drinker,

Caffeine belongs to a group of stimulants called xanthines. Considering it's readily available and a reliable pick-me-up for many, caffeine is a very popular drug. After you take some in, its highest concentration in our system occurs within thirty to sixty minutes, and its effects usually last for four to six hours. Caffeine is mildly addictive, as you already know. Maybe you were tipped off to this because you've experienced some of the signs of withdrawal from a caffeine addiction:


sleepiness
feeling overtired (from not having had any caffeine to energize you)
a terrible headache (when you abruptly stop having caffeine regularly)


And you're not the only caffeine-head out there. According to the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), four out of five Americans have some caffeine on any given day, the average amount being about 200 milligrams a day (approximately equivalent to what's found in two 8-ounce cups of coffee, three to four 12-ounce cans of caffeinated soda, or four 8-ounce cups of tea). Since one 12-ounce serving of a diet cola beverage has about 45 milligrams of caffeine, and you're consuming three to four two-liter bottles of it a day, then you're getting anywhere from 675 - 900 milligrams of caffeine a day, which is way above how much the average American gulps. Given these stats, it's no wonder that you're concerned about caffeine's effects on your health.

But how much is too much caffeine? It depends on the person -- oftentimes, you'll know when you've had more than enough if it makes you feel:


anxious

excitable

restless

dizzy

irritable

unable to concentrate

gastrointestinal (GI) aches

headaches that don't seem to go away

trouble with sleeping


These are among the most common of caffeine's effects on our bodies when taken in high doses (i.e., more than eight 8-ounce cups of coffee a day), but they can certainly occur from lesser amounts as well. Many are the result of caffeine speeding up metabolism.

As for caffeine's impact on health and disease, these relationships have been less clear in most cases. Researchers have looked at how different amounts of caffeine can affect one's risk for developing, among other things:


Osteoporosis

Birth defects

Miscarriages

Infertility

Cancers

High blood pressure

Premenstrual syndrome (PMS)

Ulcers and heartburn

Fibrocystic breast disease

Heart disease


Although controversial, too much caffeine could increase the possibility of osteoporosis later in life. Since caffeine is a diuretic, it can increase calcium loss in the urine. For every 150 milligrams of caffeine (found in approximately one 8-ounce cup of coffee or two to three 12-ounce cans of caffeinated soda), approximately five milligrams of calcium is excreted out in the urine. This loss can add up and could be detrimental for your bones, particularly if your diet is already insufficient in calcium. If you must have your caffeine, bone up on calcium by adding at least two tablespoons of milk to each cup of coffee, in addition to getting your recommended daily intake of calcium. (Read Calcium -- How much is enough? in Alice's Fitness and Nutrition archive for recommendations.)

Results have been inconclusive or inconsistent in definitively linking caffeine with the incidence of various cancers, fibrocystic breast disease, PMS, and birth defects. More research is needed, but current evidence suggests an increased risk for difficult conception, miscarriage, and delivery of low birthweight babies with certain amounts of caffeine intake. As a precaution, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has been recommending since 1981 that women eliminate or cut down on caffeine if they are pregnant or planning to become pregnant. As for the other possible relationships, something in coffee other than caffeine appears to be more likely to cause stomach irritation, worsen ulcers, raise blood pressure and blood cholesterol, speed up heart rate, and increase risk for developing heart disease.

Based on all of the above information, your health could benefit from less caffeine going into your body. You may want to consider gradually switching over to a diet cola beverage that's caffeine-free, or at least alternating between the two, and make sure to drink plenty of water everyday to help minimize withdrawal symptoms from caffeine. And don't forget about drinking enough low-fat or skim milk and juice, which provide the vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients your body needs that soda doesn't provide.

Also read Diet soda vs. water for a workout: And the winner is... in Alice's Fitness and Nutrition archive because sodas are high in phosphorus, which is another factor that could also increase your risk of developing osteoporosis in the future. For the caffeine contents of various foods and drinks, read Caffeine content

[Kyrie Eleison]

Kyrie,

I certainly understand where you are coming from, and deeply respect your decision not to drink.... In my fraternity we had a member, in whose family, almost every single male family member was an alcoholic, and he also made the decision not to drink.

It wasn't an easy decision for him, espescially given his environment.. but he felt he had a pretty good idea where he'ld end up if he indulged, and the decision was real straight forward.

I personally beleive that there is a genetic predisposition for alcoholism... those whose families' have a history of this really need to be careful... but most folks don't have this issue.. personally, though I am burdened by a great many temptations, alcoholism hasn't been one, and I don't see casual drinking as a sinful act... In general I see the decision to drink or not more as a personal issue, and less as a spiritual one, though I concede for some folks it could well be both... but that's just my .02

-Ted


Thank-you for your kindness, brother. :wave

[Illusion]

Thank you, BHiles. :):

[IbeleiveinJesus]

"Jesus drank wine at the Lord's Supper"

Not true. This many times is given as an excuse by drinkers who probably more often drink beer than wine anyway but that is besides the point. Jesus drank grape juice at the Lord's Supper and we know this for two reasons.

You know, I just honestly don't beleive that Jesus drank grape juice... I suppose one day I'll learn if I'm right or wrong, but all this no, no, it was just Grape juice stuff, just doesn't seem correct to me....

Is there any record of John, who didn't partake of "strong drink," ever drank "fruit of vine" (meaning grape juice).. I doubt it...

They didn't have refrigeration, or pasteurization back them... I don't think "grape juice" was quite as easy to come by as folks would lead us to beleive...

-Ted

[BHiles]

Dear addicted caffeine drinker,

But not an intoxicant. Red herring.

[Ajani]

Grape juice wouldn't have been easy to come by, unless it was freshly pressed, for all of the above mentioned reasons. Fruit naturally ferments. In the case of grapes, with their natural yeast, wine is the natural byproduct, and it happens rather quickly, though the strength depends partly on age.

I doubt very much that God would call us to avoid drinking too much grape juice. Where is the logic in that?

[BHiles]

.

You know, I just honestly don't beleive that Jesus drank grape juice... I suppose one day I'll learn if I'm right or wrong, but all this no, no, it was just Grape juice stuff, just doesn't seem correct to me....

Is there any record of John, who didn't partake of "strong drink," ever drank "fruit of vine" (meaning grape juice).. I doubt it...

They didn't have refrigeration, or pasteurization back them... I don't think "grape juice" was quite as easy to come by as folks would lead us to beleive...

-TedGrape juice was widely drunk at least a 2500 years before Christ.
Deuteronomy 32:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

The Living Bible Encyclopedia in Story and Pictures explains how grape juice could be preserved: "The means for preserving grape juice were well known. Kato (234-149 BC) in his book "De Agri Cultura CXX" had this recipe: ‘If you wish to have must [grape juice] all year put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year."’ (Vol. 16, pp. 2088-2089)

[frisian1970]

But not an intoxicant. Red herring.

Au contraire.

http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C569985.html




http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/intoxicant

A psychoactive substance or psychotropic drug is a chemical compound In chemistry, a compound is a substance formed from two or more elements, with a fixed ratio determining the composition. For example, water is a compound made out of hydrogen and oxygen in the ratio of two to one.

In general, this fixed ratio must be fixed due to some sort of physical property, rather than an arbitrary man-made selection. This is why materials such as brass, the superconductor YBCO, the semiconductor Aluminium gallium arsenide or chocolate are considered mixtures or alloys rather than compounds.
..... Click the link for more information. that alters the brain's normal chemistry to affect one's cognitive state. This includes most (if not all) recreational drugs, as well as psychiatric medications Psychopharmacology is the study of the effects of any psychoactive drug that acts upon the mind by affecting brain chemistry. Fly agaric can be regarded as the first such drug, being known from at least 10000 BCE.

Generally hallucinogenic drugs were used in hunter-gatherer societies, which can still be observed today. With the dawn of the Neolithic, drugs which require a longer time for production followed, mainly narcotic drugs such as alcohol and opium, but also cannabis.
..... Click the link for more information. and many other prescription drugs.


Common psychoactive substances
Stimulants
A stimulant is a drug which produces a sense of euphoria or awakeness. Examples of stimulants are caffeine and amphetamines. Stimulants are used both as recreational drugs and to improve productivity.

Some stimulants, as for example Ritalin, have been shown to help with ADD. This is often called "paradoxical effect" of stimulants.


http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/caftoxication.htm

Diagnostic criteria for 305.90 Caffeine Intoxication
(cautionary statement)
A. Recent consumption of caffeine, usually in excess of 250 mg (e.g., more than 2-3 cups of brewed coffee).

B. Five (or more) of the following signs, developing during, or shortly after, caffeine use:

(1) restlessness
(2) nervousness
(3) excitement
(4) Insomnia
(5) flushed face
(6) diuresis
(7) gastrointestinal disturbance
(8) muscle twitching
(9) rambling flow of thought and speech
(10) tachycardia or cardiac arrhythmia
(11) periods of inexhaustibility
(12) psychomotor agitation

C. The symptoms in Criterion B cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. The symptoms are not due to a general medical condition and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g., an Anxiety Disorder).

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association

[Hootmon]

Im guessing that no one is going to be willing to give up their preconceptions on this subject.

[AnotherOldGuy]

"Jesus drank wine at the Lord's Supper"

Not true. This many times is given as an excuse by drinkers who probably more often drink beer than wine anyway but that is besides the point. Jesus drank grape juice at the Lord's Supper and we know this for two reasons.

No - He drank wine.

(Luke 7:33) "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'

(Luke 7:34) "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

[BHiles]

No - He drank wine.

(Luke 7:33) "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'

(Luke 7:34) "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
Your response has nothing to do with the quote.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

Not me :):.. but I certainly respect those who differ.. as Bhiles said..

I highly doubt that when you get to heaven that God will scold you for being abstinent and not drinking enough alcohol.

To each their own on this... Someday in Heaven, Jesus will tell us which it is, and we can get together and discuss over a glass of wine.. or grape juice... depending :D:

-Ted

[Can't Wait!]

Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky.

Martin Luther

http://www.albatrus.org/english/potpourri/quotes/martin_luther_quotes.htm


Terrific quote. And for the record, we'd have to abolish men, too. :D:

[AnotherOldGuy]

Your response has nothing to do with the quote.

What quote? I think you're seeing what you want to see.

[frisian1970]

Terrific quote. And for the record, we'd have to abolish men, too. :D:

:B:

[BHiles]

In Acts when the apostles spoke in other languages and they were accused of being drunk was this true also? The accusations of the Pharisees and critics were false in both cases to discredit the preacher of the Word of God.

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

[BHiles]

Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky.

Martin Luther

http://www.albatrus.org/english/potpourri/quotes/martin_luther_quotes.htm

The saloon is a liar. It promises good cheer and sends sorrow. It promises health and causes disease. It promises prosperity and sends adversity. It promises happiness and sends misery. Yes, it sends the husband home with a lie on his lips to his wife; and the boy home with a lie on his lips to his mother; and it causes the employee to lie to his employer. It degrades. It is God's worst enemy and the devil's best friend. . It spares neither youth nor old age. It is waiting with a dirty blanket for the baby to crawl into the world. It lies in wait for the unborn.
It cocks the highwayman's pistol. It puts the rope in the hands of the mob. It is the anarchist of the world and its dirty red flag is dyed with the blood of women and children. It sent the bullet through the body of Lincoln; it nerved the arm that sent the bullets through Garfield and William McKinley. Yes, it is a murderer. Every plot that was ever hatched against the government and law, was born and bred, and crawled out of the grog-shop to damn this country.


-Billy Sunday





I far more follow Sunday's doctrine in general than the protester and reformist of the Catholic Church.

[AnotherOldGuy]

In Acts when the apostles spoke in other languages and they were accused of being drunk was this true also? The accusations of the Pharisees and critics were false in both cases to discredit the preacher of the Word of God.

You are REALLY reaching on that one.

In the passage from Acts, they were accused of being drunk because of their behavior - they were acting strangely - at least to the Jews. That passage does not say that had been drinking. And it does say that it was a mocking accusation.



(Luke 7:33) "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'

(Luke 7:34) "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Jesus is saying that He was in a no-win situation with the Pharisees. John didn't eat bread or drink wine and they thought he was a nut. Jesus says He eats and drinks (like everybody else) and they call Him a glutton and drunk. He's going to get drunk off of grape juice? People knew what He was drinking - the same thing as everyone else.



1. Fermentation represented sin in the Bible just as leaven represents sin.

Are you saying that Jesus instigated, and was a party to sin by making wine at the wedding?




2. It was called the Fruit of the Vine.

Just because it's fermented doesn't mean it's no longer "Fruit of the Vine". Have you ever seen birds and squirrels get high after eating fruit that's been on the ground a couple of days? It's really a hoot!

[frisian1970]

Modern wine is so much stonger in content today than it was in Biblical times.


Do you have a source for this?

[BHiles]

Another OldGuy,
You are missing the point about the Lord's Supper. The two elements were representations. The representations were pure. Thus no leven in the bread and no firmentation in the Fruit of the Vine because they were a representaion of sin. That is the point of point number 1.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Thus no leven in the bread and no firmentation in the Fruit of the Vine because they were a representaion of sin. That is the point of point number 1.

You got a source for that?

No leaven in the bread does represent sin.

The wine has always been Christ's blood.

Maybe you know the answer to this: At what time of year do grapes ripen in Israel? Here it's late summer. If it's the same in Israel - where did they get fresh grape juice at Passover time?

[antsinmypants]

Another OldGuy,
You are missing the point about the Lord's Supper. The two elements were representations. The representations were pure. Thus no leven in the bread and no firmentation in the Fruit of the Vine because they were a representaion of sin. That is the point of point number 1.

Actually Bhiles, this is incorrect.
To make grape juice in the heyday of Israel, it took pressing the grapes and putting them in wineskins, Even put in cellars where they were often put, they still fermented.
Yeast was NEVER added to wine.. thereby making it kosher (always) for passover.

Wine WAS drunk on Passover, which was the L-rd's Supper... ever since "forever"- - because No work can be done on Passover, and grapes, to be fresh and not fermented would pretty much have to be made this week to have it that way.. and without refrigeration, impossible within a few days- as it's already becoming wine.

Yeast wasn't used in wine, therefore kosher for passover.
One can go back to Talmud with that one.

[antsinmypants]

You got a source for that?

No leaven in the bread does represent sin.

The wine has always been Christ's blood.

Maybe you know the answer to this: At what time of year do grapes ripen in Israel? Here it's late summer. If it's the same in Israel - where did they get fresh grape juice at Passover time?

I gotta give that to ya. :thumb

[artgeek]

BHiles, can you source any of this information? Because you're skipping out on a lot of valid points that have been addressed to you and you're turning a blind eye to some pretty common sense. If you're going to keep walking out on your limb, you might want to present some supporting evidence of your views. for example: where the heck do you get the idea that fermentation represents sin?

Also, antsinmypants has already presented some pretty solid information to discredit the idea that modern wine is much stronger than the stuff they drank in the ancient middle east. She told us about winemakers in Israel who follow the ancient practices in winemaking and come out with a 10-15% alcohol content in their product. Modern wine is also usually between 10 and 15% alcohol. How do you explain this?

[BHiles]

Do you have a source for this?
It is harmful to drink wine alone, or again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one's enjoyment II Maccabees 15:39.

Wine which does not carry three parts of water to one [of itself] is not wine Shabbath 77a


Talmud Quotes are provided for historical definition only and have no scriptural authority whatsoever.

[BHiles]

BHiles, can you source any of this information? Because you're skipping out on a lot of valid points that have been addressed to you and you're turning a blind eye to some pretty common sense. If you're going to keep walking out on your limb, you might want to present some supporting evidence of your views. for example: where the heck do you get the idea that fermentation represents sin?

Also, antsinmypants has already presented some pretty solid information to discredit the idea that modern wine is much stronger than the stuff they drank in the ancient middle east. She told us about winemakers in Israel who follow the ancient practices in winemaking and come out with a 10-15% alcohol content in their product. Modern wine is also usually between 10 and 15% alcohol. How do you explain this?Give me a break will ya? I'm not a machine. It takes a little bit of time to get to everybody.:doh


Why don't you address my point that one glass of wine is intoxicating. Where s your response? Huh? Huh? Hurry up where is it?

[BHiles]

Just because it's fermented doesn't mean it's no longer "Fruit of the Vine". Have you ever seen birds and squirrels get high after eating fruit that's been on the ground a couple of days? It's really a hoot!
Prove it with scripture. Find one other location where The Fruit of the Vine is mentioned other than at the Lord's Supper. It isn't there. This was obviously something different. Wine is never mentioned in reference to this no matter how many time it is spoken of.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

Why don't you address my point that one glass of wine is intoxicating. Where s your response? Huh? Huh? Hurry up where is it?

I guess I reject your presumption that one glass of wine is intoxicating.. you either have to be real light weight for that to be the case, or have an extremely loose definition of "intoxicating"....

Does a glass of wine produce a physical effect, you bet, but so does a turkey sandwich... so what?

-Ted

[Hootmon]

Prove it with scripture. Find one other location where The Fruit of the Vine is mentioned other than at the Lord's Supper. It isn't there. This was obviously something different.Interesting... You are technically correct. However, there are numerous verses that refer to the 'fruit of the vine' that just dont use that exact phrase.

You say that it refers to something fundamentally different. Like what?

[BHiles]

I guess I reject your presumption that one glass of wine is intoxicating.. you either have to be real light weight for that to be the case, or have an extremely loose definition of "intoxicating"....

Does a glass of wine produce a physical effect, you bet, but so does a turkey sandwich... what's your point?

-Ted
Uh, It was not my definition. It is defined that way by those who research this kind of thing as was documented in the post. In any case you need not present a personal attack and if you wish to research my weight then I suggest that you research my posts. You might be suprised :):

[BHiles]

Interesting... You are technically correct. However, there are numerous verses that refer to the 'fruit of the vine' that just dont use that exact phrase.

You say that it refers to something fundamentally different. Like what?
Well let me ask you? Why was that phrase used? Why was not in all the accounts of this scene in the Gospels and also by Paul in His letter to the Corinthians was the word "Wine" never used? I cannot believe that this was just happenstance.

It ws diffferent. It was representing Christ's pure blood as the redemption for sin. It could not as a representation contain corruption just as the bread that represented His body could not contain the firmentation of leaven.

[Brad MetalMan]

Prove it with scripture. Find one other location where The Fruit of the Vine is mentioned other than at the Lord's Supper. It isn't there. This was obviously something different. Wine is never mentioned in reference to this no matter how many time it is spoken of.

That is a good point but does it really matter? Jesus made wine in John 2 at the Wedding at Cana. It was his first miracle. He would not have made something that he thought was sinful to drink, and he made wine, not "fruit of the vine". That would be like Jesus making pot or cocaine at the wedding. Some miracle, right?

[chrislb]

i'm still trying to figure out if it is a sin to drink at all...why people called Christ a grape-juice bibber and a glutton?

doesn't fermented juice make more since considering the ridicule?

[Hootmon]

Well let me ask you? Why was that phrase used? Why was not in all the accounts of this scene in the Gospels and also by Paul in His letter to the Corinthians was the word "Wine" never used? I cannot believe that this was just happenstance. I guess the short answer is 'I dont know'. Never really considered it before. However 'fruit of the vine' seems an obvious allusion to 'grape juice' and/or 'wine', not to mention the symbolic meanings of 'vine' and 'fruit' used elsewhere in Scripture.


It ws diffferent. It was representing Christ's pure blood as the redemption for sin. It could not as a representation contain corruption just as the bread that represented His body could not contain the firmentation of leaven.As has been pointed out upstream, 'grape juice' becomes 'wine' all by itself as the yeast is already on the grape skins. The process would have begun more or less immediately after the skins were broken in the press. There would have been no way to prevent fermentation short of sterilizing the juice, and they wouldnt have understood that idea back then. The only other real alternative would have been an undocumented miracle.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

In any case you need not present a personal attack and if you wish to research my weight then I suggest that you research my posts. You might be suprised

It wasn't a personal attack (at least I didn't mean it as such), I don't know your weight, and have no idea what your drinking habits are...I suppose a 60 pound 13 year old girl might get intoxicated from one drink.... (being what I would call a light weight) but I assume that doesn't describe you.. ;):

Uh, It was not my definition. It is defined that way by those who research this kind of thing as was documented in the post.

Yeah, I read that... I guess in my mind one group's opinion doesn't trump my 20 years of personal experience.....

Does one drink have a physical effect on the body.. sure, I'll concede that... but degree is important here. About anything you put in your body has an affect, from candy to the aforementioned turkey sandwich... But to say one drink is "intoxicating" devoides the word of any meaning.... at least in my opinion..

-Ted

[BHiles]

It wasn't a personal attack (at least I didn't mean it as such), I don't know your weight, and have no idea what your drinking habits are...I suppose a 60 pound 13 year old girl might get intoxicated from one drink.... (being what I would call a light weight) but I assume that doesn't describe you.. ;):
:lol Oh you meant Actual Weight. I thought you meant in the ability to debate the area of Theology. :lol My apologies.

Yeah, I read that... I guess in my mind one group's opinion doesn't trump my 20 years of personal experience.....
-Ted:lol For some reason I find this statement quite amusing also.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Prove it with scripture. Find one other location where The Fruit of the Vine is mentioned other than at the Lord's Supper. It isn't there. This was obviously something different. Wine is never mentioned in reference to this no matter how many time it is spoken of.

OK - you want to play that game. Where does it say "grape" juice? Maybe the fruit of the vine is watermelon juice. It doesn't say what kind of vine. The Jews have been wrong for thousands of years. ;):

Based just on those three occurrences, you can't show what it is either.

You still haven't proposed where they obtained fresh grape juice at Passover time. Guess it wasn't watermelons either.



This is interesting, though:

(Heb 5:5) So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

(Heb 5:6) As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";


Notice what Melchizedek shared with Abraham:

(Gen 14:18) Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

3196. yayin, yah'-yin; from an unused root mean. to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by impl. intoxication:--banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

[BHiles]

OK - you want to play that game. Where does it say "grape" juice? Maybe the fruit of the vine is watermelon juice. It doesn't say what kind of vine. The Jews have been wrong for thousands of years. ;):

Based just on those three occurrences, you can't show what it is either.

You still haven't proposed where they obtained fresh grape juice at Passover time. Guess it wasn't watermelons either.

This is interesting, though:

(Heb 5:5) So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

(Heb 5:6) As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";


Notice what Melchizedek shared with Abraham:

(Gen 14:18) Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

3196. yayin, yah'-yin; from an unused root mean. to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by impl. intoxication:--banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

Interesting

[IbeleiveinJesus]

Oh you meant Actual Weight..

Actually I referred to Actual Weight, as well as previous drinking experience. These factors tend to be most indicative regarding the degree a given amount of alcohol will affect an individual... which I'm sure you are aware given your professed knowledge about the area...

I thought you meant in the ability to debate the area of Theology. My apologies

Well, I certainly know you are no light weight when it comes to debating theology, even if you are way off base on this one... :D:

For some reason I find this statement quite amusing also

You have every right to question a statement based off my experience, not knowing me at all I'ld imagine this carries very little weight...

The problem that you face by doing so is that most peoples experience is like mine... and if your goal is to persuade me, or other Christians who drink casually that our behaviour is sinful, discounting our experience isn't the most persuasive argument to make...

-Ted

[cenimo]

Awhile back there was a thread about smoking.

I must say it's quite odd, and revealing that if the topic is love, lust, is bodybuilding porn, etc. a whole bunch of people leap forward to tell others how to behave and think, but if someone's oh so precious habits are mentioned, well then it's another story entirely.
Amazing how so many folk get very selective about what scriptures apply to things and when they do.

[AnotherOldGuy]

For the record - I don't like beer. Or wine - even sweet wines have a hint of acid that leaves a vinegar taste in my mouth. The last alcoholic drink I had was a gin and Coke about 15 or 20 years ago. That wasn't bad, but iced tea is a lot cheaper. :D:

[Jael]

For the record - I don't like beer. Or wine - even sweet wines have a hint of acid that leaves a vinegar taste in my mouth. The last alcoholic drink I had was a gin and Coke about 15 or 20 years ago. That wasn't bad, but iced tea is a lot cheaper. :D:

Same here...I've tasted alchohol once in 10 years (one glass of wine at Passover). And if I thought the Bible prohibited alchohol in any amount, I'd never taste it again. I just can't find where it says that... :confused

[BHiles]

I've never tasted Alcohol myself (except whatever that awful taste of Nyquil is). The smell of Alcohol to me is terrible. If you do not like the taste or smell of it then why would you drink it? If you did not like the taste the first time you tried it why would you try it again? Isn't there any other fruit drinks that you enjoy better in taste and why would you not just drink those instead? OR

Do you drink it for another reason than taste?

[BHiles]

The problem that you face by doing so is that most peoples experience is like mine... and if your goal is to persuade me, or other Christians who drink casually that our behaviour is sinful, discounting our experience isn't the most persuasive argument to make...

-Ted
But if your goal is to pursuade me that drinking casually is totally a great thing to persuade somone to do then I think you need to rethink what your goal is because that is not the noblest of causes. ;):

[pilgrimian]

Personally, I love the taste of Merlot (Red Wine). Does that make me bad? I don't think so. It isn't as though I drink it daily...or even weekly. The last time I had a glass was over a month ago.

Drunkenness is a problem...drinking alcohol is not a problem. Obesity is a problem...eating food isn't.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[AnotherOldGuy]

I've never tasted Alcohol myslef either except whatever that awful taste of Nyquil is. The smell of Alcohol to me is terrible.

Pure ethanol doesn't have very much taste. Nyquil, beer, scotch all have a bunch of other goodies that impart the majority of what you're tasting and smelling.

Pure ethanol doesn't have a bad smell, either. And it's a pretty good solvent. (remembering my chemist days)

[BHiles]

To Anyone,

So what about strong drink, Liquor. Is this ok in your life standards also?

[LaMontre]

I think the problem with debating such issues as these is that they are matters of conscience.

I know alcohol kills. I also know that it steals away many believers peace because they cannot seem to escape it's detremental effects.

However, if a person has a conviction that it is wrong, then to that person it is wrong.

If a person knows something is sin in his heart then to that person it is sin.

And it is also sin for anyone to try and persuade them otherwise.

(1 Cor 8:9)

[BHiles]

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

If a man preaches in favor of wine and strong drink The people will rise up and make him their prophet.

[Gary]

[QUOTE=BHiles]
...However,
[indent]Alcohol is a psychoactive drug.
Alcohol is a depressant.
Alcohol is broken down by the liver at a set rate, which cannot be changed
Alcohol is an anesthetic
Alcohol is likely to make you less cautious
Alcohol impairs your judgment

statements 1, 2, 5, 6 mean the same thing.

"Alcohol is an anesthetic"

so is Tylenol.

"Alcohol is broken down by the liver at a set rate, which cannot be changed"

Alcohol is also eliminated form the body via the lungs and urinary system at a rate of approximately 1 ounce per hour.


"It is also interesting to note that one drink is intoxicating."

Depends what you mean by intoxicating, and your definition of a "Drink". If you mean one six ounce glass of wine, one 12 ounce bottle of beer, or 1 Standard 1 ounce high ball, the effects are minimal and as a rule of thumb, will be gone in approximately one hour. That's why law's indicate degrees of intoxication WRT drinking and driving etc.

"This is from scientific research..."Duration of Intoxication: The onset of the effects of one drink of alcohol is about 15 to 30 minutes, depending on stomach content. The effects can be felt for 30 to 90 minutes, with another 45 to 60 minutes to come down and an after effect of about 1 to 2 hours including sleepiness, agitation, anxiety, headache, thirst and hunger. Because alcohol is secreted through the liver and urine, it does not stay in the body for a long period of time.

http://www.partnershipforawareness.org/alcohol.htm

If you examone this website there is a definite bias against alcohol, especially since they lump it in with illicit drugs such as cocaine and heroin.


"Modern wine is so much stonger in content today than it was in Biblical times. One glass will cause one to become intoxicated. There is no moderation in even one glass. "

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Ants has already stated that wine in Biblical times was around 10% alcohol. Wine today ranges from about 5% in brands like Baby Duck or other "Soda Pop" wines, to about 11% in your standard table wine, to about 20% in Sherry or Port (fortified wines.)


Here's a little more "Objective" website regarding alcohol use.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/faq/q-a.htm#question13

Q #13: What is a safe level of drinking?
For most adults, moderate alcohol use--up to two drinks per day for men and one drink per day for women and older people--causes few if any problems. (One drink equals one 12-ounce bottle of beer or wine cooler, one 5-ounce glass of wine, or 1.5 ounces of 80-proof distilled spirits.)

Certain people should not drink at all, however:

Women who are pregnant or trying to become pregnant
People who plan to drive or engage in other activities that require alertness and skill (such as using high-speed machinery)
People taking certain over-the-counter or prescription medications
People with medical conditions that can be made worse by drinking
Recovering alcoholics
People younger than age 21.


I don't have any more time right now to play.

[B A N E]

Lamontre,
I agree that for one that can drink and not sin to try to convince the one who cannot
is wrong.

However, this thread was started by one that cannot drink as an offensive against
those that do drink.

That being the case, IMO, it is the non-drinker that is committing the sin here
by trying to drive home their legalist POV. The one that drinks and does not
sin is only defending themselves.

If a person feels an act for them is sin, then for them, it is.
This does not necessarily make it a sin for another.

However, for the one that is free from a weakness, the stronger brother is to
abide the weaker brother and therefore not cause the weaker to stumble.

If it offends a brother, don't drink alcohol in their presence.

[Mindenite]

This is almost funny actually. I haven't read almost any of these posts but the topic was created today and now tehre are 5 pages? This seems to be less like a hot topic and more like a justification response from my point of view. Someone says not to do something that someone likes doing and they are quick, very quick, to respond. If you stop and think, that kind of response alone shows what is more right. I am not saying that alcohol is wrong but those who jump really quickly when a topic like this is brought up may have a problem with using (or abusing) it.

[IbeleiveinJesus]

But if your goal is to pursuade me that drinking casually is totally a great thing to persuade somone to do then I think you need to rethink what your goal is because that is not the noblest of causes.

But I'm not advocating anyone drink... just saying that it is not sinful behaviour when done in moderation..

I personally enjoy a glass of good wine, and consider it a great thing for me personally.. but people need to make this decision on their own, given their personal circumstances...

To Anyone,

So what about strong drink, Liquor. Is this ok in your life standards also?

I personally enjoy a good Tanquery and tonic now and then... and don't see that as sinful... now if I was doing a dozen shots... that's different... again, the key component being moderation...

-Ted

[IbeleiveinJesus]

I am not saying that alcohol is wrong but those who jump really quickly when a topic like this is brought up may have a problem with using (or abusing) it.

This really isn't fair... so if I don't respond, I let your contention stand, but if I do I am an alcoholic right? :rolleyes

Personally I'm quick to respond to this kind of thread because it smacks of legalism... and I loathe legalism....

-Ted

[Jael]

This is almost funny actually. I haven't read almost any of these posts but the topic was created today and now tehre are 5 pages? This seems to be less like a hot topic and more like a justification response from my point of view. Someone says not to do something that someone likes doing and they are quick, very quick, to respond. If you stop and think, that kind of response alone shows what is more right. I am not saying that alcohol is wrong but those who jump really quickly when a topic like this is brought up may have a problem with using (or abusing) it.

If you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that some of us have stated that we taste alchohol very infrequently (once in 10 years, once in 15 years)...so your assumption that those who disagree with you are heavy drinkers, is unfounded. :wave

[Christine]

I haven't read through this, but did want to note incase no one else did: The argument that wine was not fermented is pretty much negated by Numbers 6:3 in the Lord's instructions to Moses about the Nazarites. Wine, grape juice, grapes and raisins are all distinguished there.

There are plenty of reasons to argue for one side or the other, but that IMO isn't one of them.

:):

[BHiles]

I haven't read through this, but did want to note incase no one else did: The argument that wine was not fermented is pretty much negated by Numbers 6:3 in the Lord's instructions to Moses about the Nazarites. Wine, grape juice, grapes and raisins are all distinguished there.

There are plenty of reasons to argue for one side or the other, but that IMO isn't one of them.

:):The only "wine" that was brought up that wasn't fermented was the "Fruit of the Vine" in my post dealing with the Lord's Supper. Which is never called nor referred to as wine. Only as the Cup and the Fruit of the Vine in four different accounts.

Brent:wave

[pilgrimgal]

I am the child of an alcoholic. I am an alcoholic who is clean and sober by the grace of God for over 20 years. I have seen first hand how destructive alcohol abuse can be. Since I cannot drink and remain sober, for me it is a sin and I do not go there. But many can enjoy a glass of wine or a mixed drink before dinner now and then without any problem, and I will not lay guilt on them.

[Mindenite]

Erm, I never said that anyone was a heavy drinker. But it strikes me as odd that a single thread can get 5 pages in one single day. Even the Harry Potter threads aren't this popular. A debate is fine but an exploding thread means something is up, like it or not. It is not legalism either to not drink and even to believe that no one should drink. The Lord does say to be sober and though it may not directly be referring to alcohol, no matter what one says, one is less sober after even one glass of wine--not drunk but less sober. The only time God ever actually tells us to drink is when we are sick or dying. That ought to say something about the drug that is alochol.

[LaMontre]

However, for the one that is free from a weakness, the stronger brother is to abide the weaker brother and therefore not cause the weaker to stumble.

If it offends a brother, don't drink alcohol in their presence.

Well, Paul makes his statements in context of sacrificing meat to idols. But I think his principle is universal in such matters.

And what he says is this;

1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours (to drink) become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

[cenimo]

Sounds like there's more than a little "thou doest protesteth too much" going on here.
Anyone familiar with AA will tell you that vehement denial of any problem is a dead giveaway that it is indeed a problem.

Your body is a temple. Picutre a skull on the left horizontal line, and a Cross on the right.
Whenever you do anything to defile that temple, you've just moved a tick mark to the skull. when you pass up those things, you've moved a tick mark to the Cross.

[NetHog]

Mindenite, to me it isn't odd. It depends on a lot of factors. Just because a topic is hot does not make the matter being discussed sinful. Nor does it put any other indication on the argument at hand. All it says is that people have strong opposing opinions on it. For example, when I was at university debating abortion, more people turned out to that than any other debate. The turn out doesn't say that abortion is right/wrong in itself, just shows that people have strong opinions on it. In that case, the strong turnout was due to the number of Christians opposing it :thumb
(edit to add, this is a good example why 'they that protesteth too much' isn't a good rule of thumb, as we Christians were protesting for good reason).

Here, alcohol is being discussed. There is a large turnout because there are strong opinions. Those that believe that it's sinful, those that believe that it's sinful in excess, those that believe it's a gift from God etc. But popularity nor majority adds truth to any statement.

-
Jamie

[Mailman Dan]

You might think it irresponsible of me to drink with a shot of rum in one hand and a beer in the other, but relax -- I've got my good knee on the wheel.





Dan~~~>thinks that beer taste like pee, not that he ever drank either of which, but it's probably a good guess

[cenimo]

Mailman Dan

Dan~~~>thinks that beer taste like pee, not that he ever drank either of which, but it's probably a good guess


American beer.

[katz4jesus]

I have read through all of this and the one point that I haven't found (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that even though almost everyone believes that drunkeness is a sin, what about those who are already addicted to alcohol? It's okay to debate what constitutes a "sin" concerning alcohol. But about the born again Christian who struggled with alcohol abuse before being saved?

The desire doesn't always just go away! So for someone to start a thread and say that alcohol is a sin so therefore, "be sober" not only shows a total disrespect for those who suffer with this affliction, but also connotes a very strong sense of "I'm a better Christian than you" attitude!

We all have our struggles in Christ and alcoholism is no exeption. Who told any of you (or me) to judge the struggles of another person in Christ?

Making statements putting down another's struggles is wrong and judgemental! I don't care if it's alcoholism, lust, adultry, vanity, or righteousness! We all struggle in some area! The only perfect person to ever walk on this earth was Christ!

[blitzkreig]

If a person feels an act for them is sin, then for them, it is.
This does not necessarily make it a sin for another.

However, for the one that is free from a weakness, the stronger brother is to
abide the weaker brother and therefore not cause the weaker to stumble.

If it offends a brother, don't drink alcohol in their presence.A most excellent summary of Christian Liberty B A N E...

[Chronus]

I find the idea that the wine back then "was extremely weak" (weak enough to be called "grape juice") rather bogus.

Interesting, really. Those who appear to insist on absolute, total abstinance from alcohol will readily quote all these passages about the danger of wine and then turn around and say the wine back then was not dangerous. :confused :rolleyes

If the wine was grape juice then why all the verses on the dangers of getting drunk? Drunk on what . . . grape juice???? Just exactly what kind of dangerous drink were the verses refering to if wine was simply a glass of harmless grape juice?

The argument seems to totally defy logic.

Incidentally, I've never been drunk but I do have an occasional glass of wine or Irish Cream now and then (with an Italian, pasta meal . . . of course). As someone said earlier, many of us are attacking the legalism presented here. I find the insinuation about all these alcoholics rushing to this thread to defend drinking rather condescending and down right false.

[Illusion]

I have read through all of this and the one point that I haven't found (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that even though almost everyone believes that drunkeness is a sin, what about those who are already addicted to alcohol? It's okay to debate what constitutes a "sin" concerning alcohol. But about the born again Christian who struggled with alcohol abuse before being saved?

The desire doesn't always just go away! So for someone to start a thread and say that alcohol is a sin so therefore, "be sober" not only shows a total disrespect for those who suffer with this affliction, but also connotes a very strong sense of "I'm a better Christian than you" attitude!

We all have our struggles in Christ and alcoholism is no exeption. Who told any of you (or me) to judge the struggles of another person in Christ?

Making statements putting down another's struggles is wrong and judgemental! I don't care if it's alcoholism, lust, adultry, vanity, or righteousness! We all struggle in some area! The only perfect person to ever walk on this earth was Christ!
Spare me your indictment. Nowhere, and at no time did I EVER say it was a "sin" to consume alcohol. Look back at my posts and check if you'd like. I said Christians shouldn't do it. That remains my position. The consumption of alcohol opens the door for satan to operate within ones life.

And do not attempt to lecture me on alcoholism. I struggled with alcohol from appox. 1982-1994. Maybe I should have revealed this earlier, but I am not the type of person to go spewing my personal struggles and triumphs all over internet discussion boards. I owe "my" triumph over alcohol to my Lord. It was His victory...not mine.

I don't disrespect alcoholics or others who may be struggling with it. What I do by encouraging abstinance is hopefully keep others from falling into that same trap. You see, the trap is already set...the only thing one has to do is step into it.

It is people who say there is nothing wrong with having a glass of wine who are doing the damage. They might as well suggest looking down the barrel of a gun.

If there are people who are reading this who currently have problems with alcohol there is hope. It is found in Jesus.

I never "put down anothers struggles" as you put it. Again. You need to re-read my posts. I never said anything like that. I merely suggest abstinance.

I'll refrain from casting any aspersions your way as it would not be a Christian thing to do.

[LaMontre]

1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

[HeIsEnough]

Erm, I never said that anyone was a heavy drinker. But it strikes me as odd that a single thread can get 5 pages in one single day. Even the Harry Potter threads aren't this popular. A debate is fine but an exploding thread means something is up, like it or not. It is not legalism either to not drink and even to believe that no one should drink. The Lord does say to be sober and though it may not directly be referring to alcohol, no matter what one says, one is less sober after even one glass of wine--not drunk but less sober. The only time God ever actually tells us to drink is when we are sick or dying. That ought to say something about the drug that is alochol.Actually, I rarely ever drink alcohol at all (I am a lightweight :sigh), but I only commented here because good christians who struggle need encouragement. The Holy Spirit is quite good at His job of conviction, where need be.

But really, I recieve everything with thanksgiving and gratefullness with what God provides. He did create those same grapes to ferment, so its not as if He was caught unaware and one day said, Oh my! I didn't realize they would ferment. He gave it to us to enjoy with responsibility and good judgement.

[Mindenite]

People have used the same argument to justify opium and marijuana since both of those are just as natural as fermented grapes. Are they put here for us to enjoy with responsibility and good judgement? I think not. Is alcohol like these other natural substances? In ways yes but not entirely.

Probably the last things I am going to say about this concern alcohol itself and the common sense history of it. I do believe that Christians should not drink alcohol but I do not believe Christians cannot drink it. To clarify, one can be a Christian and drink it but I do not see any benefit in doing so--nothing about it glorifies God. Now before someone says that regular eating and drinking do not glorify God, I will say that normal mundane activities such as these are necessary and cannot be avoided. God made us to eat and drink to nourish our bodies. However, alcohol is never necessary. The last point is the old debate about Biblical alcohol. Psalms (or maybe Proverbs) has some VERY harsh words to say about alcohol. Is this the same alcohol that Jesus made from water? I would say no but what I say won't be taken seriously. Let's do some common sense reasoning then. At the Jewish feasts that Jesus attended, they drank a LOT of wine. Jesus didn't just turn enough water into wine so that everyone would have their one or two glasses. There was enough there that if it was the same stuff as we have today, Jesus Himself would have been drunk. Umm...that doesn't seem right. Did Jesus then only drink just enough so that He wasn't drunk? I am sure not everyone there did that so Jesus would have led them to sin by opening the door to drunkeness. That didn't happen either.

It is a tough issue really. I avoid it entirely and the temptation to ever be drunk by never drinking any at all. The more doors that you can close on Satan, the better off you will be I would imagine. Satan will always tempt you but why leave the window cracked?

[BHiles]

This was not to be posted in this form. Look further down.

[FishandHunt]

It is people who say there is nothing wrong with having a glass of wine who are doing the damage. They might as well suggest looking down the barrel of a gun.


No damage at all - and for you to suggest that is totally silly. It's like if I said, "It is people who say there is nothing wrong with eating at a buffet who are doing the damage...."

Eating food is not wrong, but someone with an addiction to gluttony should steer clear of buffets would be good advice. It's the same with alcohol.

We'll always have those who condemn alcohol, or dancing, or music, or playing cards, or going to movies, or whatever else they "think" is so bad and evil....

I do what my conscious allows, and answer to God for my actions.


Oh, BTW - don't bring guns into this conversation/debate!!!

:pound :pound

[artgeek]

i'm not sure anyone meant to say point blank that there's nothing wrong with having a glass of wine, period.... nearly everyone that i remember has been quick to add the proviso saying that doesn't apply for people who struggle with alcohol. if you struggle with alcohol, don't drink. please, don't. but if you don't struggle with it, and you're not in the company of people who do, have a glass if you enjoy it. that's okay.

i, personally do not drink to relax, nor do i drink for any feeling... i drink because i like the taste of what i'm drinking, whether it's a fine wine, or a good belgian beer, or a mixed cocktail. and i've never been drunk, nor do i ever plan to be. i know my limit, and i don't overstep it. and that doesn't make me a bad christian, or a sinner, or misguided. it makes me a christian who enjoys her liberty in Christ and enjoys it responsibly.

[CanaanBound]

How about one glass of Tucher Hefeweisen beer...yum yum. Right after a meal.

[BHiles]

But really, I recieve everything with thanksgiving and gratefullness with what God provides. He did create those same grapes to ferment, so its not as if He was caught unaware and one day said, Oh my! I didn't realize they would ferment. He gave it to us to enjoy with responsibility and good judgement.So Is the government against the Word of God in this area.

Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to ever