Question About Luther's Teachings

[Warrior Prophet]

Have any of you studied Martin Luther's sermons, writing and have you read his translations of the scriptures? Also, do you know if his translations were used in the making of the King James version?

[seeker42]

He was better when he was younger. In his latter years, he seemed to edge closer to his old views. Remember his time was a time of transition. His German Bible became the foundation of the German nation. They were greatly blessed by this, until Textual Critics took academic positions, and then launched an all out assault on the Bible, flooding the market with dozens and dozens of books attacking the deity of Christ, the inspiration of scripture, the historic record of the Bible, etc. They were beaten back and their arguments succesfully countered, but by then they had already done great damage. Germany never recovered.

Luther was more contemporary with Tyndale. They worked together while Tyndale was in Europe. Their versions are almost identical. Tyndale based much of his work on Luther's to have another text to compare with. Luther's works have been translated into English and are available.

Luther's Bible was not used in the making of the KJV as it was German and not greek or Hebrew. However the source of his Bible are the same as the KJV. Luther used the Textus Receptus. His Old Testament is from the same family of manuscripts as the Old Testament of the KJV, which is based upon the 1525 Hebrew O.T. of Ben Chayyim. Only the KJV uses this O.T. as a basis for the English translation. Modern Version Bibles in English use the 1937 O.T. of Kittel, who was not saved, and who did not Believe that the Old Testament had been preserved. He translated the O.T. but believed that it was hopelessly corrupted.


Seeker

[blitzkreig]

Luther's seminal work I think was his short thesis The Bondage of the Will (http://www.covenanter.org/Luther/Bondage/bow_toc.htm).

In some ways Luther plowed the trench which Calvin later planted... but he never gets the credit I think he is due.

I suppose it could be in part because as Seeker points out he seemed to double back on himself...

[Warrior Prophet]

Well, I suppose we have to remember that Luther was mortal like all of us. Though he did great things for the Kingdom, he wasn't perfect.

[Christine]

Mortal indeed. Like most confused amill/preterists :D:, he didn't quite understand the Lord's relationship with Israel and was anti-semitical enough to make Hitler bow.

Give credit where credit is due, but do remember that he was just a man.

:):

[Warrior Prophet]

Heh... don't start Christine. :D:

[Christine]

:heh

[Christine]

Here is a link to quotes of Luther's teachings about the Jewish people:

http://www.bereanfaith.com/judaism.php?action=article&aid=68

:):

[Warrior Prophet]

I shouldn't have asked... I was asking for a friend. Not about his teachings on the Jewish people. Sheesh... Benny Hinn gets more tolerance on this board than Luther.

[Christine]

Take the tiara off, Mark. ;):

The question was "Question About Luther's Teachings".

As mentioned, IMO -- give credit where credit is due, but as with ALL teachers, do not put them on the infallibility pedestal.

:nod

[seeker42]

We need not dwell on the ignorance of most evangelicals about their roots...since that fact is well known. But here is an example where many others did not know much about Martin Luther in anycase. But now, the other teachings of Luther will still not have been addressed. So - there were statements that he made that were very wrong, is the implication that Hitler = Luther or that Luther = Hitler ?


I am only wondering what someone who does not know Luther would think of him. As its stands now, He may have written more than 42 volumes, but what others will remember now... will be his mistaken statements about Jews...Still - that leaves 41 volumes not communicated.


Great Witness ?

[Christine]

I am only wondering what someone who does not know Luther would think of him. If you are Jewish -- that would be it (and the purpose for me posting it). That compilation was done by a friend of mine who happens to be an Orthodox Jew and a member here. Why? Because he was confused as to how this "father of the faith" is held in such infallible esteem.

Point being that our witness is all we have.

We can either be honest about the strengths and weaknesses of our 'leaders', or we can put on the blinders and act as they are all Jesus Himself and alienate those who have the common sense to know better.

:nod

[seeker42]

That compilation was done by a friend of mine who happens to be an Orthodox Jew and a member here. Why? Because he was confused as to how this "father of the faith" is held in such infallible esteem.

Somehow I don't find the correlation. The reason Luther was held in Esteem is because of the 40+ OTHER volumes that he wrote on theology, AND because he was the first to risk His own life, in order to translate the Bible and give it to the German speakers. Prior to Luther, most germans did not have a Bible in their own language, and were forbidden to read it. Through Luther's work and the printing of his Bible, Luther liberated the Bible from the Archbishops and Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church. The fact of what he risked in terms of what he gave up...was enough to endear him to the Germans.

Most Jews don't understand Christianity. To 95% of jews, Christianity is really only Roman Catholicism in anycase. They don't understand what Christianity is. However, it seems that their confusion is added when they start discussing Hitler. Hitler was a nominal Catholic. But what he truly believed in was the Occult. Hitler was a lifelong student of the occult. Occultism and Anti-semitism go hand-in-hand, and it was Hitler's choice to allow his propaganda department to use the quotes of a few Christians.

But one should not confuse those quotes and treat them as though they were the basis for why Luther was held in high esteem.



Seeker

[Warrior Prophet]

Oh and Christine.....









































I love you a lot. :D:

[Christine]

But one should not confuse those quotes and treat them as though they were the basis for why Luther was held in high esteem. Seeker, I will say that Luther was influential and will be rewarded to this day for what he accomplished, but in the same token, he should not be held as infallible or as a giant of the faith when the whole of scripture is taken into account. While he was responsible for much good in the reformation, he can and will be held accountable for the the anti-semitic interpretation of scripture that permeates much of the church today.

:(:

At the Bema, we will all be held responsible for our thoughts and counsel. While I would be honored to stand in Luther's shoes overall, I must say that with the frame of reference that the 20th century afforded, I will take my chances on speaking out against the bit of harm he did with the CI (Christian Identity) movement that he is the unsung hero of...

:sigh

[Christine]

Love ya too, Mark, and good to see you. :hug

[blitzkreig]

While he was responsible for much good in the reformation, he can and will be held accountable for the the anti-semitic interpretation of scripture that permeates much of the church today.What church do you go to? :confused There is no anti-Semites in my church.

Just so nobody gets confused ... you may bump into Luther in the buffet line in heaven... I don't believe you will running into Hitler ...

Just because Luther was not 100% right on everything he wrote does not make him a demon. He was used of God in a mighty way. But for some reason God did not make him perfect.

Nor did He make me perfect for that matter... :faint

[Warrior Prophet]

I never went anywhere Christine. :B: Just a PM away. :D:

[CanaanBound]

Solomon fell away from the LORD in the end of his days. God used him to write 3 books in the bible. Who's to say about Luther? He certainly messed up by saying Jews were the cause of many problems in Germany at that point of time. Please remember Solomon again...he allowed his wives to seduce him into idol worship. I am not at all saying Luther was LIKE Solomon...certainly not but there are SOME similarities (not much, mind you).

[seeker42]

he should not be held as infallible or as a giant of the faith when the whole of scripture is taken into account.

I don't even understand the statement. Have you read his 40 volumes ? Just how many of them have you personally read ?

It would seem that the true basis of being able to evaluate him would be to read a lot of what he has written. So have you done that ?


Seeker

[seeker42]

he can and will be held accountable for the the anti-semitic interpretation of scripture that permeates much of the church today


1. Maybe you have some examples of the “anti-semitic interpretation of scripture” [???] that permeates the church.

I would think that Many examples could be found, because after all – they PERMEATE the church.

2. maybe you can explain how Luther would be responsible for this.

3. maybe you are simply presuming that Luther is more responsible...than he actually is - for what actually comes down to bad hermeneutics, and poor methods of Bible interpretation


Seeker

[Warrior Prophet]

I'm bowing out of this guys... I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[seeker42]

I will take my chances on speaking out against the bit of harm he did with the CI (Christian Identity) movement that he is the unsung hero of...

I find this comment surprising ...because I have not seen any information to back this up. What can easily be demonstrated about “Christian Identity” is 1) that they are NOT Christian and 2) that they Are Occultists. And they are certainly NOT part of the Church, in any sense of the word. We should make that clear in order to avoid any misunderstanding.

They believe in the doctrine of the ARYAN Christ, the concept that Jesus was NOT Jewish (which is most clearly a lie since Jesus Christ was Jewish).

The "Aryan Christ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679449450/qid=1089529118/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance&s=books)" is a concept from the occult.

They use books and manuals that come from Hitler and his fellow nazis. Those books are occult and occult based (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312388217/qid=1089528934/sr=1-12/ref=sr_1_12/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance&s=books) works. Hitler and those of that day were very clear on speaking out in Favor of a return to mother earth, and a need to return to Pagan based culture (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0826414095/qid=1089528934/sr=5-1/ref=cm_lm_asin/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance) and the ancient Nordic Gods. That – is the material that they use. In the U.S., the C.I. movement comes largely from a man named Pelley who founded the Silver Shirts back in the 1920s. His books still exist. They are filled with new age demonology and his trance experience speaking with false angels. Those are the roots of the false Christian Identity movement.

Whatever antisemitism comes in today into the church comes mostly from Kittel through his introduction of false hermeneutics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800629310/qid=1089530113/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance&s=books). Kittel is the writer of the Old Testament which most Modern Versions of the Old Testament in English are based on. He was tried in Nuremberg for Nazi War Crimes. His father (who started the project) hated Jews and the son [Gerhard] was an occult high priest to Hitler. Kittel the father attacked the Old Testament and the Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Inspiration of Scripture. Kittel the son (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300038895/qid=1089529933/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance&s=books) openly verbally attacked Jews, praised their stigmatization, encouraged the forming of the concentration camps, said that they should be banished from society, said that they were inferior, and also stated that they were not actual Jews. (He wrote more than 10 books during the Nazi era. There is plenty of proof).

Biblia Hebraica (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3438052180/qid=1089529666/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance&s=books) which came out in 1937 is the result of Kittel's work. It was published in 1937 during the Nazi era (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609607995/qid=1089530047/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9958786-8036729?v=glance&s=books). It is the # 1 Hebrew Old Testament used in Seminaries today.


Seeker
:confused :):

[seeker42]

Some of the information about Kittel (and his influence on the Next Generation of Postwar Nazified German Theologians) can also be found in

"The Theological Faculty of the University of Jena during the Third Reich." Online, http://www.oslo2000.uio.no/AIO/AIO16/group%208/Heschel.pdf. Revised and published as "The Theological Faculty at the University of Jena as a Stronghold of National Socialism." [the reference to Kittel begins on Page 5, where the article mentions that Kittel's assistant Walter Grundmann, joined the NSDAP - in plain english the NSDAP IS the Nazi Party]


Seeker

[Christine]

What I am referring to as anti-semitical is Replacement Theology (RT), and yes, Luther was more than influential in that theology. CI groups take this to a whole new level. They trumpet his writings on this as if they are as meaningful as his reformation teachings - why I mentioned that we need to seperate the man from the pedestal some folks have him on.

As far as churches that practice this? Take your pick. Not to harp on Mark ;): but it is the basis of amillennial/preterist thought. Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian -- all of the (IMO) churches of Sardis maintain this stance.

While systematic theologies will differ from denomination to denomination and most have enough grounding in scripture to be understandable, I have a hard time comprehending the RT school of thought as I do not think it represents.

[Warrior Prophet]

I am not the spokesperson for amillennial/partial preterist thought. :B:

[seeker42]

I am not sure if anyone thinks you were, but thanks for clarifying.

Seeker
:):

[Bondservant]

I do NOT hold Luther in high esteem as I would not any other racist. Satan hates the Jews and has inspired hatred against them in the hearts and minds of many men. A man who says he loves God and hates his brother God calls a liar. So I call Luther a liar. There is no excuse that can be made for his evil, vicious words and teachings about the Jews. Throw the baby out with the bath water someone once asked me concerning Luther, I declare yes if the bath water is so putrified by poison to stay in and accept the stench will make one sick or cause death. Luther declared in dealing with Jews ( and it is no different then what the KKK or white supremasists , or Islamists or Germany taught/teaches)...
"I shall give you my sincere advice:
First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God."

I don't embrace the KKK,white supremasists (who use the Bible to "support" thier theology of hate) Islamist or anyone else who hates the Jews. And I sure do not call Luther a man of God. What God ?

[Warrior Prophet]

Bond,
Nice qoute... but for all I know you could be making that up. Do you have a reference for that qoute?

[Christine]

Mark,

That is part of the volume 47 works. Excerpts from that (and some even more horrific that that one) are what I linked above.

:sigh

[Warrior Prophet]

Ok.... now I'm leaving.... :laugh I don't base my theology on Luther. I base it on the Bible, that's all I'll say. If you want to disagree, feel free. Just don't link his view of Israel with mine. I am not anti-Jewish.

[ChristiRB]

I think the lesson here is NOT to blindly trust MOTAL MAN....test EVERYTHING against what the Word of God says. I am learning not to trust ANYONE in this day and age.

[ChristiRB]

Oh and :wave Mark!

[blitzkreig]

I have now read Chritine's web-page with the Luther quotes... and only say that yes they certainly are negative statements toward the Jews.

If that was berried in 47 volumes ... I would say most prolific writers of that era likely have some odd-ball views which in the 21st century look quite bad. That doesn't make it right... it only makes it common.

As I say... I don't find the comments acceptable... but to be honest... I was expecting something down right hair-raising. It wasn't. I just sounded like someone who was "bitter" about something.

The 16th century was a negative time... all around. Slavery had still not even reaching it's peak. Torture was common.

The Catholic church seemed to be fond of both torture and burning everyone who didn't agree with them at the stake. What an awful time to live in...

Go to any wax museum if you want to see replicas of the tools of the trade.

Religious freedom apart from political interference was hard to come by in that era... I just thank God that I didn't live then...

[joy4Him2day]

Bondservant:
WOW. :freaked That was painful to read.

:cry

:wave Hi Mark

[Warrior Prophet]

:wave

[joy4Him2day]

As I say... I don't find the comments acceptable... but to be honest... I was expecting something down right hair-raising. It wasn't. I just sounded like someone who was "bitter" about something.

Above quote from Blitzkreig

I found the quotes extremely unGodly and offensive...... and the pages worse. He must have missed an awful lot of the Bible while transcribing.... Being a translator of scriptures doesn't evidently make you a Holy Spirit filled-christian.........that was anything but of the Spirit of God.....
I hope Luther found Christ before he died......he sounds an awful lot like Paul when he was Saul........
......Luther would have bombed abortion clinics and murdered abortion doctors with that attitude.....I am stunned at the vile and hatefilled pages....
.... :tsk

[Christine]

:freaked

Wait-a-minnit here folks! I think that calling the man's salvation into question is a bit out of line. :(:

NONE of us are 100% spot on with our doctrines -- and how many times do we go off on our own steam on things, relying on our own power and not the Lord? Those who the Lord uses mightily are the same ones that satan targets.

That said, Luther wrote that tripe just before his death. It can be viewed (or I view it) as the Lord taking him home as he has accomplished the task that the Lord had for him, and it was his time to go before he did any more damage.

Blitz, While I appreciate that this happened hunderds of years ago, and there was indeed no frame of reference on literal interpretation of scripture then, that isn't the answer, IMO. It would be if it happened back then and that was the end of it, but that isn't the case. His writings headed up the RT/CI schools of thought and are the cornerstone for those positions today

:sigh

[HeIsEnough]

As I say... I don't find the comments acceptable... but to be honest... I was expecting something down right hair-raising. It wasn't. I just sounded like someone who was "bitter" about something.

My hair is raised in how those quotes are so similar to what all who persecute Jews say, including and especially Nazi's. Who's chambers of death were a natural extension of the bounty spewing from their heart. As you believe, so you do.

[B A N E]

It just baffles me when folks go completely over the top about things.

Assess the man for what he did.
He did a lot of good in the effort to take the Bible out of catholic hands.

He bombed regarding Jacob.

A lot of folks have no understanding of just how hard it is to unshackle one's
self from erroneous doctrine. Even when one has head knowledge, applying
that knowledge can be more than one can do.

Yes, understand the timeframe.
Yes, understand the successes and failures.
Don't semi-deify him and don't disregard him.

Used powerfully by God was M.Luther.
Some of what M.L. believed has however been used to undermine protestant
christianity. It's a mixed bag.

Before anyone stones M.L. remember David.
A murderer, an adulterer...
beloved of God
If you judge David only by his behavior regarding Bathsheba and Uriah,
you must conclude that David was evil beyond recovery, you must then
conclude that everything David did and said that was deemed good was
bogus, you must then conclude that David is in hell.

And what are we told in the NT?
keep the good, throw out the bad
Apply this concept to Luther.

[joy4Him2day]

I apologize, Christine, and anyone else I offended.......I thought strong words would get the point across that this is not "little" stuff......but, then, as BANE pointed out....neither is murder.....

that being said, in light of this discussion:

"Deception" has to do with the mind , and it means a wrong thought admitted to the mind, under the deception that it is truth. Since "deception" is bvased on ignorance, and not on the moral character: a Christian who is "true" and "faithful" up to the knowledge he has, must be open to deception in the sphere where he is ignorant of the "devices" of the devil (2 Corinthians 2:ll), and what he is able to do. A "true" and "faithful" Christian is liable to be "decieved" by the devil because of his ignorance.

The thought that God will protect a believer from being deceived if he is true and faithful, is in itself a "deception", because it throws a man off guard, and ignores the fact that there are conditions on the part of the believer which have to be fulfilled for God's working. God does not do anything instead of man, but by the man's co-operation with Him; neither does He undertake to make up for a man's ignorance, when He has provided knowledge for him which will prevent him being deceived.

The children of God need to know that to be true in motive, and faithful up to light, is not sufficient safeguard against deception; and that it is not safe for them to rely upon their "honesty of purpose": as guaranteeing protection from the enemy's wiles, instead of taking heed to the warnings of God's Word, and watching unto prayer.

that is all I was really implying when I made the "hope he was saved" statement........it is really easy to judge by the outside, isn't it? It makes these statements take on much more meaning in this setting.........

We live in perilous times, and need to take heed. Christ would not have warned His disciples "Take heed.....be not deceived if there had been no danger of deception, or if God had undertaken to keep them from deception apart from their "taking heed", and their knowledge of such danger.

:):

edited for spelling

[joy4Him2day]

This might be helpful:

1 Timothy 1: 12-17

And I thank Christ Jesus, our Lord, who hath enabled me, in that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
This is a faithful saying , and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Nevertheless, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all long-suffering, for a pattern to them who should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever.


"because I did it ignorantly in unbelief".....can apply to born-again believers, also......

[John 3:16]

Joy :hug I love your spirit.