Which is Easier to Believe?

[BHiles]

This:

Glimpse at Early Universe Reveals Surprisingly Mature Galaxies
A rare glimpse back in time into the universe's early evolution has revealed something startling: mature, fully formed galaxies where scientists expected to discover little more than infants.

"Up until now, we assumed that galaxies were just beginning to form between 8 and 11 billion years ago, but what we found suggests that that is not the case," said Karl Glazebrook, associate professor of physics and astronomy in the Krieger School of Arts and Sciences at The Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and co-principal author of a paper in the July 8 issue of Nature. "It seems that an unexpectedly large fraction of stars in big galaxies were already in place early in the universe's formation, and that challenges what we've believed. We thought massive galaxies came much later."

Using the Frederick C. Gillett Gemini North Telescope in Mauna Kea, Hawaii, Glazebrook and a multinational team of researchers called the Gemini Deep Deep Survey (GDDS) employed a special technique called the "Nod and Shuffle" to peer into what had traditionally been a cosmological blind spot. Called "the Redshift Desert," this era - 8 billion to 11 billion years ago, when the universe was only 3 billion to 6 billion years old - has remained relatively unexplored until now, mainly because of the challenges inherent in collecting data from the faintest galactic light ever to be dissected into the rainbow of colors called a spectrum. In all, the team collected and analyzed spectra from 300 galaxies, making it the most complete sample ever taken from the Redshift Desert.

"This was the most comprehensive survey ever done covering the bulk of the galaxies that represent conditions in the early universe," Glazebrook said. "We expected to find basically zero massive galaxies beyond about 9 billion years ago, because theoretical models predict that massive galaxies form last. Instead, we found highly developed galaxies that just shouldn't have been there, but are."

These findings challenge the dominant theory of galactic evolution, which posits that at this early stage, galaxies should have formed from the bottom up, with small pieces crashing together to build small and then ever larger galaxies. Called the "hierarchical model," this scenario predicts that normal-to-large galaxies such as those studied by GDDS would not yet exist.

"There are obviously some aspects of the early lives of galaxies that we don't yet completely understand, Glazebrook said. "We do find fewer massive galaxies in the past, but there are still more than we expected. This result is giving us a big clue as to how stars form from invisible gas in the hierarchical model, which is something not well understood under current theories. Some new ingredient is required to make more stars form earlier in the big galaxies. But what that ingredient is, we don't yet know."

The GDDS team, which included Nature paper co-authors Roberto Abraham from the University of Toronto, Patrick McCarthy from the Observatories of the Carnegie Institution of Washington and David Crampton of the National Research Council of Canada's Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics, was supported by a grant from the Packard Foundation and by institutional support from the National Science Foundation, Canada's National Research Council, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada and the United Kingdom's Particle Physics and Research Council, among others.




Or This:



Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

It is much easier to believe God. IMHO

[matheteou]

I kind of like this verse also "I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. " (Isaiah 45:12, NKJV)

[BHiles]

I kind of like this verse also
"I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. " (Isaiah 45:12, NKJV)

Great Verse. See one verse sums it all up. I'm a little fed up with these "experts" to give us all these papers and research and vain words.

I would just be happy if they just show us the pretty pictures and keep their mouths shut. Just post/print the pictures and put these verses as captions so we can thank the Creator who made them. Is that so stinking hard?

This is the core of the degradation of man. There is no thankfulness.

Do you thank Him?

Lack of it is the the begining of a believers demise. Lack of thankfulness is the beginning of a Nation's demise. It is the root of the problem.

[B A N E]

This is the core of the degradation of man. There is no thankfulness.

Do you thank Him?

Lack of it is the the begining of a believers demise. Lack of thankfulness is the beginning of a Nation's demise. It is the root of the problem.

Bhiles,
No, ingratitude is not the beginning, disbelief is.
See Adam & Eve.
See what is counted to us as righteousness.
What is the work that the Father requires?

Belief.

If you believe, you know and then you can be thankful.
If you do not believe, you do not know and have nothing to be thankful for.

HTH

[HeIsEnough]

See one verse sums it all up.
And it does for most, but not for all. The scriptures do not automatically negate an increase in knowledge of the creation.

[cameron222]

Another glimpse into the universe by skeptical man that shows that God creates with maturity. Just as Adam and Eve were fully grown, fully functional at the moment of creation, so was all the universe and beyond.

Another favorite verse of mine is......He who sits in the heavens laughs.

If man would turn to the Bible and take it literally and seriously, he would learn more about creation in a few minutes than he would in a lifetime listening to evolutionists and atheists who's main purpose is to try and disprove the existence of God.

[RobinB]

Another glimpse into the universe by skeptical man that shows that God creates with maturity. Just as Adam and Eve were fully grown, fully functional at the moment of creation, so was all the universe and beyond.

.

Thanks. . . I never thought about creation this way :nod

[rekker]

It is much easier to believe God. IMHO

I can't figure out why you think the two are mutually exclusive. The article article describes scientists finding mature galaxies in a realm they expected to find less developed. Now they are forced to readjust their theories to account for the phenomenon, since they don't know how those galaxies were able to form so early in the universe's history. They say:

"Some new ingredient is required to make more stars form earlier in the big galaxies. But what that ingredient is, we don't yet know."

And they never will know. Science won't tell them that God created the cosmos. They can't just say "Clearly, then, God made the universe." That's not within the realm of science to determine. That's within the realm of religion and philosophy.

Regardless, I still don't understand why you think this article contradicts the Genesis account?


Another glimpse into the universe by skeptical man that shows that God creates with maturity. Just as Adam and Eve were fully grown, fully functional at the moment of creation, so was all the universe and beyond.

Another favorite verse of mine is......He who sits in the heavens laughs.

If man would turn to the Bible and take it literally and seriously, he would learn more about creation in a few minutes than he would in a lifetime listening to evolutionists and atheists who's main purpose is to try and disprove the existence of God.


These scientists may be trying to disprove the existence of God, but I still don't see how this article threatens anything we believe.

[matheteou]

"I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. " (Isaiah 45:12, NKJV)

Great Verse. See one verse sums it all up. I'm a little fed up with these "experts" to give us all these papers and research and vain words.

I would just be happy if they just show us the pretty pictures and keep their mouths shut. Just post/print the pictures and put these verses as captions so we can thank the Creator who made them. Is that so stinking hard?

This is the core of the degradation of man. There is no thankfulness.

Do you thank Him?

Lack of it is the the begining of a believers demise. Lack of thankfulness is the beginning of a Nation's demise. It is the root of the problem.Here's the caption that should go with each of those pictures:The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

[rekker]

"I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. " (Isaiah 45:12, NKJV)

Great Verse. See one verse sums it all up. I'm a little fed up with these "experts" to give us all these papers and research and vain words.

I would just be happy if they just show us the pretty pictures and keep their mouths shut. Just post/print the pictures and put these verses as captions so we can thank the Creator who made them. Is that so stinking hard?

This is the core of the degradation of man. There is no thankfulness.


Actually I find that the more I learn about the complexity and vastness of the cosmos, the more I am in awe about the Creator and what he has made.

I don't think we should stop doing science, as you seem to suggest.

[Hootmon]

I can't figure out why you think the two are mutually exclusive.
<Snip>
These scientists may be trying to disprove the existence of God, but I still don't see how this article threatens anything we believe.:nod

The more Science learns about the Creation, the more it agrees with Scripture.

[BHiles]

Actually I find that the more I learn about the complexity and vastness of the cosmos, the more I am in awe about the Creator and what he has made.

I don't think we should stop doing science, as you seem to suggest.
No you are putting words in my mouth of which I am NOT thankful.

I love science. I love that we go and explore the universe. However the Bible says it much more succinctly and wisdom than these "scientist" ever could. It takes them so many more words to hint (because they would never admit that there humanistic philosohpies were flawed) that which the Bible has so clearly said.

[BHiles]

Bhiles,
No, ingratitude is not the beginning, disbelief is.
See Adam & Eve.
See what is counted to us as righteousness.
What is the work that the Father requires?

Belief.

If you believe, you know and then you can be thankful.
If you do not believe, you do not know and have nothing to be thankful for.

HTHPerhaps your right

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

But I still believe that it is one of the first steps. I believe unthankfulness leads to the lack of faith. At two different times mankind all believed. They already believed and perhaps they got too comfortable in that belief. Wanting more they lacked the thankfulness to God for what He gave them.

The Israelites time and time again ceased to be thankful as shown in there grumbling and then the disbelief came quickly thereafter.

Remembering and thankfulness in that rememberence for what God has done keeps us from disbelieving what He will do.

[B A N E]

Oh, there's no question that one can know and be an ingrate.
Examples are plenty during the Exodus/Wilderness/Canaan/Kingdom etc.

Good points.

[rekker]

No you are putting words in my mouth of which I am NOT thankful.

I love science. I love that we go and explore the universe. However the Bible says it much more succinctly and wisdom than these "scientist" ever could. It takes them so many more words to hint (because they would never admit that there humanistic philosohpies were flawed) that which the Bible has so clearly said.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. :thumb

Regardless, I think that the Bible and Science both say different things about the Universe, and both are valid. You SEEM to be saying that what science says is invalid and what the Bible says is better. (forive me if that's not what you're saying).

Which is more accurate description of a sunset:

1. It is a depiction of God's beautiful creation

2. Sunlight is bending as it moves through the atmosphere, and the bending light refracts into different wavelengths thereby appearing in different colors.

They are both right. You can't say that #2 is silly because clearly God made the sunset. Neither can you say #1 is silly just because there is a scientific explanation for HOW it works.

This is the problem with the science vs the Bible debate. There is no debate. The debate exists only when scientists insist that there is no God (which they can not prove) and when Christians insist that science is wrong (which the Bible doesn't prove). Clearly scientists can not use science to disprove God, and clearly Christians can't use faith to disprove science.

[Hootmon]

This is the problem with the science vs the Bible debate. There is no debate. The debate exists only when scientists insist that there is no God (which they can not prove) and when Christians insist that science is wrong (which the Bible doesn't prove). Clearly scientists can not use science to disprove God, and clearly Christians can't use faith to disprove science. :nod

Nevertheless some will try...

[rekker]

:nod

Nevertheless some will try...

You are right! If each camp would stop making authoritative claims in each other's realms, there wouldn't be an issue.

It's the people who use science to say "Hah, told you there is not God!" and the people who use religion to say "Hah, told you science was full of it!" that are causing all the problems.

[cameron222]

I have no problem with objective science, but trying to cram down our throats that the Earth is millions or billions of years old gets a little old and worn after awhile.

The Bible goes to great lengths to let us know that the days of creation were literal days....it repeats that the days were "evening and morning." And if you take the time line from Adam to the present.....we are somewhere around 6,000 years from the beginning of the creation...not billions of yerars.

But most science teachers would laugh you out of the classroom for saying such stuff.

My personal belief is that they see everything in the physical and cannot acknowledge a God with enough power to create all we see around us. God is spirit and nothing is impossible to Him.

Thats my beef with so called "science."

[Hootmon]

Cameron, Have you read the 'Yom' thread in Apologetics?

[frisian1970]

I have no problem with objective science, but trying to cram down our throats that the Earth is millions or billions of years old gets a little old and worn after awhile.


Frankly since all interpretation of data is arranged and processed within the mind, I find it all subjective at its core.

[RonnieBee]

Ah, but true knowledge comes from the marriage of religion and science.

There is one scientist whom I trust. He is a messianic Jew, he has accepted Jesus as his savior. He has two books I highly recommend for anyone seeking scientific knowledge. 1. Genesis and the Big Bang, and 2. The Hidden Face of God.

His name is Gerald Schroeder, and his books can be found at Amazon.com, and at his web-site www.geraldschroeder.com.

I challenge anyone here to read his books and refute his findings.

[Hootmon]

Ah, but true knowledge comes from the marriage of religion and science. :nod

[Odysseus]

The reason that people like to disreguard astronomy and prehistoric theory is because it not just shakes traditional Christianity a little bit it makes the Rapture theory look a little stupid. I mean why would God create this entire unverse filled with galaxy, suns, planets? It doesn't make sense that God would create this truely massive unverse and then have all of the drama of life take place on this one little planet orbiting an average size star in the arm of one galaxy. So it's a lot easier to believe that God created the heavens just to give man something to look at.

As far as the universe goes Earth is about as significant as a one grain of sand out of all the beaches of the world. And if you are one of billions creatures on that insignificant speck of dust how important are you?

So knowing that God made you special for some special purpouse makes you feel important. Also, knowing that God choose you to live in these "End Times" where all of creation is about to end makes you doubly important, and lets you in on the biggest secret of humanity. That's why I'm not suprised people on this board discount scientists, it deminishes their sense of self being.

I believe God created the unverse, humanity and myself. I also think that the Gensis story is a parable. God created Man, does it really matter how?

[AnotherOldGuy]

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/age.html

Good find, Ronnie.

This guy gives a pretty good explanation of time. He does keep some semblance to a 'day' (from God's perspective, at least).

This may be easier for some to understand - although I have tended to look at it from correlating creation day events with scientific theory.

His conclusion:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The calculations come out to be as follows:

-The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

-The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

-The third day also lasted half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

-The fourth day - one billion years.

-The fifth day - one-half billion years.

-The sixth day - one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When it says "from the Bible's perspective", it is actually referring to God's perspective. He is the only being who has the perspective relative to the moment of creation.


The bad news - I hope that God mercifully does not follow the pattern for His seventh day. If He does, we still have 125 million years until He creates again (the length of the seventh day). But then, everything up until Rev 21 could happen, starting at any time. Satan and unbelievers would then have been judged and we are in God's presence, at which point we would then be in His time reference - thereby having only a fraction of a day remaining until His next creation.

[cameron222]

I don't see it as perspective. I see it as maturity. God crated with maturity and stretched out the heavens. The heavens are about six thousand years old, but "appear" to be much older due to the stretching.

With man it is impossible, but with God nothing is impossible. Not even a literal seven day creation.

[AnotherOldGuy]

God crated with maturity and stretched out the heavens. The heavens are about six thousand years old, but "appear" to be much older due to the stretching.

So, you are in effect saying that the heavens are declaring deceit on God's part? They "appear" to be other than they are?


(Psa 19:1) The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

(Psa 19:2) Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge.


(Psa 50:6) Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge. Selah


(Psa 97:6) The heavens declare His righteousness, And all the peoples see His glory.



The "heavens declare the glory of God", "The heavens declare His righteousness". If the universe is only 6000 years old and anything in the universe can be measured to be more than 6000 years old - then what are the heavens really declaring?

(Prov 12:17) He who speaks truth declares righteousness, But a false witness, deceit.



Psalm 19:2 is rather interesting. Who is it that works at night? "Night unto night reveals knowledge" - we gain a little as we go. What we see IS true. We may not immediately understand it - we will NEVER totally understand it this side of heaven. But we are learning more of how God did what He did.

Athiest astronomers will never be able to say what caused the "Big Bang", or "Big Hiss" as I've seen newer theory refer to it. All they've got is "everything came from nothing". But I - and many astronomers - know exactly what 'caused' it.



With man it is impossible, but with God nothing is impossible. Not even a literal seven day creation.

Is it possible for God to intentionally mislead us?

I agree with "literal seven day creation". I just don't think that it's 'days' as we measure them.

[Servant]

The reason that people like to disreguard astronomy and prehistoric theory is because it not just shakes traditional Christianity a little bit it makes the Rapture theory look a little stupid. I mean why would God create this entire unverse filled with galaxy, suns, planets? It doesn't make sense that God would create this truely massive unverse and then have all of the drama of life take place on this one little planet orbiting an average size star in the arm of one galaxy. So it's a lot easier to believe that God created the heavens just to give man something to look at.

As far as the universe goes Earth is about as significant as a one grain of sand out of all the beaches of the world. And if you are one of billions creatures on that insignificant speck of dust how important are you?

So knowing that God made you special for some special purpouse makes you feel important. Also, knowing that God choose you to live in these "End Times" where all of creation is about to end makes you doubly important, and lets you in on the biggest secret of humanity. That's why I'm not suprised people on this board discount scientists, it deminishes their sense of self being.

I believe God created the unverse, humanity and myself. I also think that the Gensis story is a parable. God created Man, does it really matter how?

This is the second time today that I have had to ask you to keep other than pre-trib views to the Rapture Doctrine Discussion forum. I know that you were also reminded of this previous to today. We'll call this warning number two and see what happens...

[cameron222]

Don't know where you get "deceit."

I'm saying that God stretched out the heavens in......perhaps seconds....and to us puny humans that expanse appears to be billions of years old rather than a few thousand years.

We cannot comprehend the ways of God...other that those he allows us too.

Now for a real curve ball.....It is also likely that planet Earth is the center of everything, and all of the heavens moved away in every direction as God stretched them out. The expanse is so massive that it is beyond comperhension and the sun may appear to be the center, but in reality probably isn't. As a matter of fact, science shows that the sun and moon is gradually moving further away from the planet. Run that tape in reverse a few thousand years and you would have a planet in cinders due to the heat of this object being so close to the planet.

Everything is in a very delicate balance.

[RonnieBee]

Don't know where you get "deceit."

I'm saying that God stretched out the heavens in......perhaps seconds....and to us puny humans that expanse appears to be billions of years old rather than a few thousand years.

We cannot comprehend the ways of God...other that those he allows us too.

Now for a real curve ball.....It is also likely that planet Earth is the center of everything, and all of the heavens moved away in every direction as God stretched them out. The expanse is so massive that it is beyond comperhension and the sun may appear to be the center, but in reality probably isn't. As a matter of fact, science shows that the sun and moon is gradually moving further away from the planet. Run that tape in reverse a few thousand years and you would have a planet in cinders due to the heat of this object being so close to the planet.

Everything is in a very delicate balance.


I dissagree that the earth is the center of everything. I believe God is the center of everything, and everything else revolves around him, and in him. That is the only way God can always be higher than anything else. Imagine the Cosmos is an immense sphere. The inside is Infinite GOD, and the outer surface is ABSOLUTE ZERO, beyond which there is no beyond.

Everything moving toward the GOD center would be moving inward and up, and everything moving away from GOD would be moving down and away.

I believe the throne of the Most High is the center of the universe, and that universe is located within GOD, and it is called the circle of the earth, (solid matter, universe). Science has discovered what they believe to be black holes at the center of certain galaxies.

Speculation: What if these black holes are the gravity pits holding the galaxy together, and what if there is a gigantic hole of energy in the center of the universe holding it together?



Issiah 40:9-31 / ESV-Bible-Online
The Greatness of God
9 Get you up to a high mountain,
O Zion, herald of good news; [5]
lift up your voice with strength,
O Jerusalem, herald of good news; [6]
lift it up, fear not;
say to the cities of Judah,
“Behold your God!”
10 Behold, the Lord God comes with might,
and his arm rules for him;
behold, his reward is with him,
and his recompense before him.
11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd;
he will gather the lambs in his arms;
he will carry them in his bosom,
and gently lead those that are with young.

12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand
and marked off the heavens with a span,
enclosed the dust, (atoms), of the earth, (solid mattter), in a measure
and weighed the mountains in scales
and the hills in a balance?
13 Who has measured [7] the Spirit of the Lord,
or what man shows him his counsel?
14 Whom did he consult,
and who made him understand?
Who taught him the path of justice,
and taught him knowledge,
and showed him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket,
and are accounted as the dust on the scales;
behold, he takes up the coastlands like fine dust.
16 Lebanon would not suffice for fuel,
nor are its beasts enough for a burnt offering.
17 All the nations are as nothing before him,
they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.

18 To whom then will you liken God,
or what likeness compare with him?
19 An idol! A craftsman casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
and casts for it silver chains.
20 He who is too impoverished for an offering
chooses wood [8] that will not rot;
he seeks out a skillful craftsman
to set up an idol that will not move.

21 Do you not know? Do you not hear?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, (sphere of the cosmos),
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
23 who brings princes to nothing,
and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.

24 Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown,
scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth,
when he blows on them, and they wither,
and the tempest carries them off like stubble.

25 To whom then will you compare me,
that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high and see:
who created these?
He who brings out their host by number,
calling them all by name,
by the greatness of his might,
and because he is strong in power
not one is missing.

27 Why do you say, O Jacob,
and speak, O Israel,
“My way is hidden from the Lord,
and my right is disregarded by my God”?
28 Have you not known? Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He does not faint or grow weary;
his understanding is unsearchable.
29 He gives power to the faint,
and to him who has no might he increases strength.
30 Even youths shall faint and be weary,
and young men shall fall exhausted;
31 but they who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings like eagles;
they shall run and not be weary;
they shall walk and not faint.

(Emphasis and Addendum mine)

[Ciscokid]

No you are putting words in my mouth of which I am NOT thankful.

I love science. I love that we go and explore the universe. However the Bible says it much more succinctly and wisdom than these "scientist" ever could. It takes them so many more words to hint (because they would never admit that there humanistic philosohpies were flawed) that which the Bible has so clearly said.


I think the scientists are simply attempting to describe the processes God used in creating the universe. There are many scientists who believe that God is the Creator of our Universe...they simply may be explaining how think things "unfolded".

[Ciscokid]

I have no problem with objective science, but trying to cram down our throats that the Earth is millions or billions of years old gets a little old and worn after awhile.

The Bible goes to great lengths to let us know that the days of creation were literal days....it repeats that the days were "evening and morning." And if you take the time line from Adam to the present.....we are somewhere around 6,000 years from the beginning of the creation...not billions of yerars.

But most science teachers would laugh you out of the classroom for saying such stuff.

My personal belief is that they see everything in the physical and cannot acknowledge a God with enough power to create all we see around us. God is spirit and nothing is impossible to Him.

Thats my beef with so called "science."


Just to attempt to cultivate some interesting dialogue, lemme pose a question to you. We know that the earth has been pelted with numerous meteorites in the "past", some of these meteorites were incredibly large...causing some severe damage worldwide.

In a 6000 year timespan how could life as we now it possibly sustain with the bombardment of these meteorites every decade or so?

[Ciscokid]

I dissagree that the earth is the center of everything. I believe God is the center of everything, and everything else revolves around him, and in him. That is the only way God can always be higher than anything else. Imagine the Cosmos is an immense sphere. The inside is Infinite GOD, and the outer surface is ABSOLUTE ZERO, beyond which there is no beyond.

Everything moving toward the GOD center would be moving inward and up, and everything moving away from GOD would be moving down and away.

I believe the throne of the Most High is the center of the universe, and that universe is located within GOD, and it is called the circle of the earth, (solid matter, universe). Science has discovered what they believe to be black holes at the center of certain galaxies.

Speculation: What if these black holes are the gravity pits holding the galaxy together, and what if there is a gigantic hole of energy in the center of the universe holding it together?




(Emphasis and Addendum mine)


I agree! At one time the Church used to believe in a geocentric universe because they couldn't imagine God not putting us smack dab in the middle of everything....a little arrogant if you ask me.

God is amazing and I stand in awe of the splendid Universe he has created for us to discover and explore.

[cameron222]

Until we know the exact distance to the edge of the universe, we will not know whether or not we are the center.

If the universe is without end, then everything could be in the center at any given time.

[Ciscokid]

Just to attempt to cultivate some interesting dialogue, lemme pose a question to you. We know that the earth has been pelted with numerous meteorites in the "past", some of these meteorites were incredibly large...causing some severe damage worldwide.

In a 6000 year timespan how could life as we now it possibly sustain with the bombardment of these meteorites every decade or so?


Bump! :wacko

[Jiggy37]

The reason that people like to disreguard astronomy and prehistoric theory is because it not just shakes traditional Christianity a little bit it makes the Rapture theory look a little stupid.
I don't see how. The rapture has nothing to do with the age of the earth.
I mean why would God create this entire unverse filled with galaxy, suns, planets? It doesn't make sense that God would create this truely massive unverse and then have all of the drama of life take place on this one little planet orbiting an average size star in the arm of one galaxy.
Why not?
As far as the universe goes Earth is about as significant as a one grain of sand out of all the beaches of the world. And if you are one of billions creatures on that insignificant speck of dust how important are you?
You're assuming that being one of many somehow implies being less important, which isn't true in the case of unique creations.
So knowing that God made you special for some special purpouse makes you feel important.
I suppose it does. If you're implying that that's why anyone believes in God and is skeptical of science that contradicts God, though, you're wrong--that, I think, is a byproduct of faith (on both levels), not a motivator toward it.
Also, knowing that God choose you to live in these "End Times" where all of creation is about to end makes you doubly important, and lets you in on the biggest secret of humanity.
Not particularly any more "doubly important" than knowing that we're going to be with God for eternity, no.

[rekker]

I don't see how. The rapture has nothing to do with the age of the earth.

I think he means that if you believe you're going to be plucked from the big bad earth to live a non-physical existence in heaven for all eternity, then why would God have bothered to make all this physical stuff that extends for trillions of light-years?

It's easier to buy into rapture theology if matter is essentially evil, the universe small, and science totally misguided. That way it's easier to swallow the idea that God will trash the earth.

[BHiles]

It's easier to buy into rapture theology if matter is essentially evil, the universe small, and science totally misguided. That way it's easier to swallow the idea that God will trash the earth.It's easier to buy into this theology if your god is small.



Edited for better definition.

[rekker]

How do you know what my theology is?

I was simply explaining my take on this fellow's post, which someone didn't understand.

[BHiles]

It's easier to buy into rapture theology if matter is essentially evil, the universe small, and science totally misguided. That way it's easier to swallow the idea that God will trash the earth. Is this your quote or theirs. My response is to the original author of this post or idea that formed this post.

[packer]

cameron, anytime you make something appear to be something it isnt, it's deciet. if God made the universe appear to be billions of years old and is really only 6000 years old, that is deciet. Why would God do that? to fool people into thinking that there is no God? I dont think He would do that. God created science as a way to better understand His creation, not to confuse us about His creation.

[B A N E]

If the method of interpretation is incorrect, deception could be implied
where none exists.

FTR, I don't subscribe to the "made to look old" theory.
I consider the method of interpreting the data to be incorrect.
HTH

[BHiles]

Maybe we are just to ignorant to understand the why's.

I certainly hope so. I wouldn't want a God I could completely explain anyhow.

[frisian1970]

Maybe we are just to ignorant to understand the why's.

I certainly hope so. I wouldn't want a God I could completely explain anyhow.


Science isn't about why, it is about how.

[rekker]

Is this your quote or theirs. My response is to the original author of this post or idea that formed this post.


I was explaining the idea (originally introduced by someone else) to another poster who didn't understand what he meant.

I understood what he was trying to say because I've seen it too. It seems a lot of people who are too heavily focussed on rapture theology have a very negative view of the creation. I don't think it makes anyone's god small to observe this trend.

[RonnieBee]

One thing our human minds can't seem to comprehend is that Local Earth time, and God's time are not the same thing. Gods week of creation did take Billions of years, but due to the time dialation effect, it also took only seven days. But these seven days are God's creation days, in which we are living in the Sixth day, or day of man(kind) now. I can't explain all of this here in this post, but if you want the Combined biblical and scientific explanation see Dr. Gerald Schroeder's site, and get his book, "Genesis and the Big Bang". I also recommend his, "The Hidden Face of God".

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/gbb.html For Genesis

www.geraldschroeder.com home For Hidden

From Library Journal

Credit the author, who has equal credentials in physics and theology, with uniquely addressing ultimate origins (the Big Bang) and not just human origins (evolution). Still, his insistence on the literal correctness of Scripture (there's even a little bit of ``counting the begats'') establishes a tone that won't work with many readers. A more theologically sophisticated exposition is Evolution and Creation, edited by Ernan McMullin (Notre Dame Pr. 1985), and George Seielstad's At the Heart of the Web ( LJ 6/1/89) elucidates many of the same themes without invoking divine creation. However, with its thoughtful references encompasing Maimonides to Stephen Jay Gould, Schroeder's book deserves discussion and could become a standard text of ``creation science.'' It is also likely to receive mixed reviews from scientists, a controversy that probably warrants its purchase.-- Gregg Sapp, Montana State Univ. Libs., Bozeman