Christian Women in Management

[MercySawMe]

I am a manager of a group of 20 people, most of whom are not Christian. I am looking for some websites that can give me some help on applying Biblical principles in a basically wordly setting. For example, how do I encourage people to be good stewards, to love one another etc etc without it sounding like I am preaching. Does anyone know of any websites where I can get some help with this?

[1Heavenbound]

I am a manager of a group of 20 people, most of whom are not Christian. I am looking for some websites that can give me some help on applying Biblical principles in a basically wordly setting. For example, how do I encourage people to be good stewards, to love one another etc etc without it sounding like I am preaching. Does anyone know of any websites where I can get some help with this?
:wave I'm sorry I don't know of any websites, but I just wanted to wish you lot's of luck and I'll pray that you'll be successful. :):

[cameron222]

The best management technique to achieve what you mentioned, is to set the example by the way you live and behave. It won't take long for the folks to realize that you are a bit different.

[antsinmypants]

Amazingly enough, Walmart has encorporated "servant leadership" from the bible.

:D:

Might want to read up on how their management works (or shall I say, works ideally ;): )

:wave

[rekker]

I have two suggestions.

1. Dale Carnegie's book "How To Win Friends and Influence People". Might sound a little weird, but the principles of dealing with people are Biblical. And they are POWERFUL concepts which will help anyone motivate their employees, make them feel loved and appreciated, and win their trust and confidence.

2. A little book called "Business Through the Eyes of Faith". I can't remember who the author is, but you may be able to find a copy at www.heartsandmindsbooks.com

[MercySawMe]

Thanks for the replies!


rekker - am going to try those two books! :D:

[cameron222]

Mercy....I have a friend at work who has his organizational chart on the wall...the typical big man at the top with hirelings in the squares underneath.

I told him the best way to manage was to turn the chart upside down. He did and frequently mentions it...... :):

[Carlosabc]

____Quote_______________________________________
I am a manager of a group of 20 people, most of whom are not Christian. I am looking for some websites that can give me some help on applying Biblical principles in a basically wordly setting
_________________________________________________


I wish there was an answer someone could give you. But in truth, the Bible does not address how a woman (who holds authority) should lead the way over men by example. There may be web sites with that kind of answer, but they will not be biblicly based.

Here's why. 1 Tim. 2:11 tells us that woman are not to usurp authority over the man. "...But to be in silence."

I am assuming your group of 20 includes young men. If that is the case, you have usurped authority over them.

This is something I believe a lot of woman have a hard time accepting. We have grown up a couple of generations ago being taught that men and women (er women and men) are equal in all things and that our rolls are interchangable. This is not the truth. (This is not saying that women are of less value). Both sexes are very important but serve differing purposes.

In answer to your question, there may be web sites that tell women how to command men in power and authority and leadership, but you can be sure that their metheods are not biblicly based.

When God's methods are not used, you can expect things to go wrong.

1 Tim 2:11 "...nor to usurp authority over the man..." means nothing to most women today. It's either downplayed, mis-interprated or ignored.

[Old 33]

Carlosabc, when Paul was writing his letters, there were women in leadership roles in the churches he was writing to. And he was friends with them. For his time, Paul was a radical on women's rights, treating them as separate human beings and not as chattel of their husbands.

To say, as I read in your post, that God doesn't approve of or endorse women in management positions over men is not only wrong from a Biblical perspective, but is offensive. God has given us all skills and talents to use, and He has seen fit to give MercySawMe the skill of leadership and has placed her in a role where she can use that skill.

Not only that, but the passage you quoted from 2 Timothy isn't about the workplace...it's about worship.

[antsinmypants]

Carlos, as always. . .

Usurping and being given the position of management over boys/men is DIFFERENT-- worlds apart.

If I were to say... give birth to 20 male children.. my husband would have me in a place of authority over them.. I would not usurp HIS authority, as he is their father, but I am their mother.


Please reflect on what Usurp means:


Main Entry: usurp
Pronunciation: yu-'s&rp also -'z&rp
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French usurper, from Latin usurpare to take possession of without legal claim, from usually (ablative of usus use) + rapere to seize -- more at RAPID
transitive senses
1 a : to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right <usurp a throne> b : to take or make use of without right <usurped the rights to her life story>
2 : to take the place of by or as if by force : SUPPLANT <must not let stock responses based on inherited prejudice usurp careful judgment>
intransitive senses : to seize or exercise authority or possession wrongfully
- usur·pa·tion /"yü-s&r-'pA-sh&n also "yü-z&r-/ noun
- usurp·er /yu-'s&r-p&r also -'z&r-/ noun


The biblical Greek from the verse you have quoted is:

G831

Pronunciation Guide
authenteo {ow-then-teh'-o}

from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself

2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic

3) an absolute master

4) to govern, exercise dominion over one



----

and I shall assure you... almost 100% (let's say...90%).. that any woman in a managerial position- has a man above her that put her there to micromanage for him.

And that would be a biblical way of a woman getting promoted over people-- male or female.

The directive you are quoting is about teaching and managing within the ekklesia... not the workforce.

:wave

[Jael]

The directive you are quoting is about teaching and managing within the ekklesia... not the workforce.

:nod Exactly...a couple of examples of godly women who exercised authority over male workers:

The Shunnamite

2Ki 4:22 And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.

2Ki 4:24 Then she saddled an ass, and said to her servant, Drive, and go forward; slack not [thy] riding for me, except I bid thee.


Abigail

1Sa 25:18 Then Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched [corn], and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid [them] on asses.

1Sa 25:19 And she said unto her servants, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she told not her husband Nabal.

Paul was establishing how the assembly of believers should be governed, not excluding women from any authority over men in the workplace.

[Fool for Christ]

Here's a website I heard about on the radio today that sounds like what you're looking for.

http://www.christianworkingwoman.org/

I haven't checked it out personally though.

[MercySawMe]

Thanks again for the (mostly) encouraging and helpful replies.

For "Carolsabc", thanks for assuming that I have "usurped authority over men" :(: . I'll let everyone else's defense of me speak (thank you all) but just to make it clear, out of the 20 people under my authority, only 2 are men and my relationship with both of them is wonderful. I couldn't ask for 2 beter people to have in my group.

The proiblem I am having is mainly with the younger women. With them there is a tendancy to gossip, backbite, criticize, whine, complain about the others... etc. The Bible tells us as older women (okay so I am 51) to teach and encourage the younger women. Well, that may be one thing in the church setting but how do I do it in a worldly setting when I obviously can't speak to their spiritual side or quote Bible veres?

This whole issue has really made it clear to me how much the Holy Spirit makes our lives as Christians possible. To tell them it is not kind to gossip seems to go in one ear and out the other. This has made me so thankful that I have that inner voice guiding me in even the little things in my life.

Thanks again all - any moe suggestions are gladly accepted!!! :): :):

[MercySawMe]

Here's a website I heard about on the radio today that sounds like what you're looking for.

http://www.christianworkingwoman.org/

I haven't checked it out personally though.

Thanks - I checked this out and think it might be really helpful!!!

[Barb L]

Mercy - I seem to be having the same problem at my work. I am a nurse and am responsible for about 20 staff members, and yes, they are mostly women younger than myself. (My one male nurse works nights and as far as I'm concerned, he's definitely in charge when he's there!) I agree with Cameron's observations in that I try to lead by example - my folks do know that I'm different but their perception is that I'm "too nice" and I'll never make it here! (I just started this job about 2 months ago). Why don't you PM me and we can discuss further? Barb

[Jacob]

This is something I believe a lot of woman have a hard time accepting. We have grown up a couple of generations ago being taught that men and women (er women and men) are equal in all things and that our rolls are interchangable. This is not the truth. (This is not saying that women are of less value). Both sexes are very important but serve differing purposes

Carlosabc, I am inclined to agree with you, but believe that I should go one step further.

God does not call people to do anything that is contrary to what His word states

The Lord commands us in Titus 2 that women must be "workers at home." The original greek is "oikourgouß." It is a combination of the greek word "Oikos" = home and "urgos" = worker.

Urgos is from the root word "ergon," which means: work, business, employment, that which any one is occupied, that which one undertakes to do, an enterprise.

Paul wrote that this, in conjunction with other Christian conduct, is so that "the Word of God is not dishonored."

In his commentary on Titus 2, John Gill wrote that, in biblical times, it was a reproach for a woman to go out daily and be involved in business and affairs not related to her household. He added: "this is what is meant by the woman's being an helpmeet for man, that while he is abroad about his business, she is at home, and keeping house; and this they observe is the glory and honour of the woman.

Regarding Ephesians 5:22: Gill wrote: She should be in subjection only to her husband; not to any other man, nor to her children, nor to her servants, or any brought into her house.

Thus, a woman working in the workforce is under authorities that God has not enjoined her to be under.

Matthew Henry wrote about Titus 2: "Their business is to guide the house, and they should give no occasion to the enemy to speak reproachfully."

Likewise, this model goes back to the Garden of Eden. After Adam and Eve sinned, God pronounced a curse upon each of them according to the roles that they had as a man and woman. Eve, and the women following her, were to have pain in childbirth, and struggle against the temptation to resist male authority in her life. Adam was to have toil in his work as he sought to be the provider and breadwinner. Thus, as Eve's curse was unique to her as a woman, Adam's role as breadwinner is unique to the man.

God states that the excellent woman is one whose talents, labors, and enterpise is directed toward the home (Proverbs 31:27).

[Whosoever]

"Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided." (Judg. 4: 4-5)

People tend to forget her a lot. A woman in a position of power is precedented and, apparently, Biblical. Israel may have been enslaved at the time, but it doesn't erase the fact there were men she oversaw. Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, it is the interpretations that are in err. Most of what I'm seeing quoted refers to worship, not the secular workforce. It sounds like what's being said is that women shouldn't hold any position at work that oversees a task involving men. As we've seen, God allows it when, as always, it's in His will (just as He allows men in those same positions when it's His will.)

The point is not if a woman is in charge over men, the point is if that woman is doing what God intended her to. If she is, no one has the right to tell her she's "usurping" power of any kind.

[cenimo]

Carlosabc

What about Deborah?

MercySawMe

There is a book,
Jesus CEO
Using Ancient Wisdom for Visionary Leadership

The author is Laurie Beth Jones

1996
HYPERION NY
ISBN 0-7868-8126-7

[Jael]

Regarding Ephesians 5:22: Gill wrote: She should be in subjection only to her husband; not to any other man, nor to her children, nor to her servants, or any brought into her house.

Thus, a woman working in the workforce is under authorities that God has not enjoined her to be under.

And your plan for unmarried women? Welfare, perhaps?

[antsinmypants]

And your plan for unmarried women? Welfare, perhaps?

I was about to inquire the same. Obviously my fiance nor father can provide more than food and shelter for me, which is why I am working to pay for health insurance.

Many forget health insurance stops coverage at 18 unless in college/uni, or working on your own!!! EVEN FOR WOMEN!

This is just silly. Women working at home had servants or slaves, who they told what to do, where and how -- same as workforce.
What about women in the market selling scarlet or purple cloth such as in proverbs 31 & Lydia? or Paul's companions that were female tent makers with their husbands?

They obiously were selling in the market places! -- and according to Torah, this is quite ok as long as they are under their husband's directives.

[wigginsmum]

Thanks for the suggestions on this thread; I work for an investment bank and manage a team of 4 men in the anti-money laundering department. We have a great team probably because we're such a mix of nationalities; I'm English, the guys are Australian, New Zealander and German. God placed me in this job quite miraculously and it's the best I've ever had.

The Proberbs 31 woman was an independent business-woman; she considered and bought property with her money from her business endeavours, and her husband supported her in it.

Jules

[cenimo]

wigginsmum

anti-money laundering?

odd choice of the hyphen or English custom?

just struck me funny

[wigginsmum]

I usually refer to it as AML; never sure where to put the hyphen :) I guess technically it's anti-money-laundering.

Jules

[pilgrimgal]

Oh boy. Another bash a Christian woman because she dares work outside the home.

Maybe one of those who believe it is unbiblical would care to pay me the salary I make now to stay home and take care of DH. Cause otherwise, we're both out on the street. He's retired and medically disabled. And while the job I have now is the pits, I praise God that I am physically and mentally able to earn a living. And that He gave me the intellect to work in a profession where I can make a comfortable living.

Edited to add that I understand that only a couple of posts got my dander up. And most of you did a great job of answering them. :clap

[Jacob]

Oh boy. Another bash a Christian woman because she dares work outside the home

God's word stands true. In my previous post, I did not put down my own ideas. I explained Scripture. And I quoted commentators who devoted their lives to studying and teaching God's word so as to avoid making it appear that these are my own opinions. Paul's teaching in Titus 2 on being workers at home is situated in the context of other directives that are a part of genuine Christian conduct for the Church throughout the ages. Titus 2 starts out by saying "speak the things that are fitting for sound doctrine." and ends with "These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

Why do women resist being workers at home? Because Satan has a system to sell in the world, and thus it is the attack of the enemy. Feminist writer, Vivian Gornek, of the University of Illinois, stated: "Being a housewife is a illegitimate profession...."and then adds: "radical feminism intends to change that." What does it matter to a feminist if women all chose to be housewives? It is because she is a pawn in the hand of the enemy to push the unbiblical world system and dishonor God.

So, the woman who wants to obey God and be the worker at home that God designed for her is getting bashed by the world, and the Christian woman who has left the home to enter the marketplace believes that they are being bashed when they are exhorted by the word of God regarding their responsibilities.

Never in American history has our society had such a disdain for traditional marriage and a penchant for easy divorce as what it has had over the past few years. Women today occupy nearly 50% of the jobs in America. The divorce rate in America is roughly about the same percentage. And people who will enter into adulterous affairs and end their marriages will do so more often with someone at work. Are these statistics just coincidences? Divorce and adultery has infiltrated the Church at rates that closely parallel the unsaved world. And the Word of God is dishonored.

Working mothers has contributed to the increase in delinquency. I recall a personal situation involving my teenage son a few years ago on a summer day. Some young teenage boys down the street, who were under the "supervision" of a 17 year old babysitter, :doh came up and caused some serious trouble, in which my son and his friend were assaulted. The police were called. My wife was the only parent at home who could come out! The kids who caused the trouble called their mother's at work. The cops are at the house ready to bust their kids and issue fines, and not one could leave her job and come out and meet the cops!

A two income household increases spending power, which drives up prices and causes inflation. Additionally, A report from Harvard by a man named Harris states that women working outside the home in the workforce contributes male unemployment in the inner city. Employers can get tax credits for hiring a female over a male, not to mention that women are paid less many times than their male counterparts doing the same job. So, Harris noted that people will hire a woman before they'll hire a minority male. And so what happens is two our three new jobs are taken by women because they'd rather deal with women than men and that contributes to a rise in unemployment of the men. Now, we have poverty & crime in the cities and wonder why the government doesn't do something to create more jobs. We have "sown the wind," now we "are reaping the whirlwind."

In Genesis, chapter 3, we find Eve being seduced by Satan. He begins his deception by raising doubts as to what God had clearly said. Eve takes the bait, even the serpent's denial of the consequences God would impose, and then adds something of her own to God's specific instructions (Gn 3:3). The result of Adam and Eve's sin of disobedience, as we know, was disastrous for all mankind. Eve allowed herself to be seduced by the Satan's deception into justifying disobedience for the sake her self, including her self-improvement.

There are those great examples of Deborah, Abigail, Rahab, and Esther. Also, the numerous men in the Bible who failed God miserably. However, we must be careful against interpeting unique incidents, such as Deborah, and applying it as the norm for all women to follow when their are abundant of Scripture passages to the contrary - even if it is believed to be something for God.

[Whosoever]

Why do women resist being workers at home? Because Satan has a system to sell in the world, and thus it is the attack of the enemy.
:popcorn

[tennismenace]

____Quote_______________________________________
I am a manager of a group of 20 people, most of whom are not Christian. I am looking for some websites that can give me some help on applying Biblical principles in a basically wordly setting
_________________________________________________


I wish there was an answer someone could give you. But in truth, the Bible does not address how a woman (who holds authority) should lead the way over men by example. There may be web sites with that kind of answer, but they will not be biblicly based.

Here's why. 1 Tim. 2:11 tells us that woman are not to usurp authority over the man. "...But to be in silence."

.

Carlos, you are kidding with this post. The gal comes on here looking for our help and instead gets a door slammed in her face.

Methinks you are seriously misapplying God's Word here. Look at the context of Paul's writings.

[tennismenace]

Carlosabc, I am inclined to agree with you, but believe that I should go one step further.

God does not call people to do anything that is contrary to what His word states

The Lord commands us in Titus 2 that women must be "workers at home." The original greek is "oikourgouß." It is a combination of the greek word "Oikos" = home and "urgos" = worker.



What's wrong with you people here! Where's your COMMON SENSE? Unfortunately, too many Christians leave it at the altar, and that's not a good thing?

So all single women are not to get jobs or for that matter go to college, and on and on.

[tennismenace]

To Mercy,

I apologize for my Christian brothers here. They know not what they say!

My prayers and love are with you. May your light shine brightly in the midst of all the darkness. God needs you!

You Go Girl!!!!!!!

TM

[Changes]

Maybe you guys could explain to pilgrimgal & others what they are to do?

You apparently have decided what they should not do ~ but the problem still exists.

Here's why. 1 Tim. 2:11 tells us that woman are not to usurp authority over the man. "...But to be in silence."
Holy out of context!!!


1 Timothy 2


Instructions on Worship

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1TIM+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_161361841_1)] will be saved[2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1TIM+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_161361841_2)] through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Footnotes



2:15 Greek she
2:15 Or restored


Bible Gateway (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1TIM+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

[mustardseed]

In Biblical days, the men worked in shops at the home, or in the fields tending flocks. Are the men on this thread who say women should only work within the home tending flocks for a living?

[Paul]

My kids act like animals, does that count? :B:

MercySawMe -- that's wonderful that you desire to be a godly example to those around you. If you treat others with the grace and mercy that Christ has treated you then you'll go a long way towards being a good witness. I know you do that.

[frisian1970]

Hmm, I just saw the thread title, and I am thinking I don't want some PMS'ing woman managing the nuclear bomb arsenal.

:bolt

[B A N E]

Num 27:1-11
27:1 The daughters of Zelophehad son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, belonged to the clans of Manasseh son of Joseph. The names of the daughters were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah and Tirzah. They approached 2 the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and stood before Moses, Eleazar the priest, the leaders and the whole assembly, and said, 3 "Our father died in the desert. He was not among Korah's followers, who banded together against the LORD, but he died for his own sin and left no sons. 4 Why should our father's name disappear from his clan because he had no son? Give us property among our father's relatives."

5 So Moses brought their case before the LORD 6 and the LORD said to him, 7 "What Zelophehad's daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father's relatives and turn their father's inheritance over to them.

8 "Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father's brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to be a legal requirement for the Israelites, as the LORD commanded Moses.'"
NIV

[Gary]

Oh boy, where to begin.....

God's word stands true. In my previous post, I did not put down my own ideas. I explained Scripture.

Actually you took selected text and applied your own meaning.

Old33 said it best:

"To say, as I read in your post, that God doesn't approve of or endorse women in management positions over men is not only wrong from a Biblical perspective, but is offensive. God has given us all skills and talents to use, and He has seen fit to give MercySawMe the skill of leadership and has placed her in a role where she can use that skill.

Not only that, but the passage you quoted from 2 Timothy isn't about the workplace...it's about worship."


And I quoted commentators who devoted their lives to studying and teaching God's word so as to avoid making it appear that these are my own opinions.

You quoted an awful lot from John Gill and Matthew Henry.

Gill died in 1771, and Henrys "Commentary on the Whole Bible" was originally written in 1706. 18th century women were considered far less than men. Find a more up-to-date source. A 250 year dead Chauvinist sin't going to cut it.

Why do women resist being workers at home?

Perhaps because today's society requires a double income???? I know in my household, we cannot get by without my wife working. Many families are the same. You go on to cite Satan's agenda. No doubt true, but put the blame where it belongs. Not on women that must work, but on large corporate greed that squeezes every last dollar out of the average family forcing women to work. In addition, how wonderfully Chauvinistic of you to imply that women are somehow less than men. I have a wonderfully gifted niece studying to become a Pharmacist - a straghit A student. I also have two daughters of my own whom I hope will go on to become a Marine Biologist, and Veteranarian respectively. How dare you suggest that they should forego their dreams and God-given talents simply because they were born female.

I'm going to stop this rebuttal now because I can feel myself getting angry.

Ladies, toast 'em!!

[Jael]

Why do women resist being workers at home?

Because no one is willing to pay us to stay home...and many of us don't have a husband to depend on...oh, yeah...and because we like to eat once in a while... :rolleyes

[cenimo]

Gee guys (and I'm a guy) as you're seeing here in these posts most of these women don't really have a choice. It's not their fault that things started going crazy in the 1970's and a new tract home went from the $40k's to the $70's. Most of them were forced into the job market. Once there, many became surviviors. Others are forced into poverty because some guy who demanded they have his kids leaves them and the kids.

The days of Oog, the hunter-gatherer and his mate constantly barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen are long, long past.

As a sidenote, when the Lord told people to go forth and multiply, it is very doubtful he meant to keep it up until half the world is starving to death.

[Mercy4Me]

Hmm, I just saw the thread title, and I am thinking I don't want some PMS'ing woman managing the nuclear bomb arsenal.

:bolt
What a horrible and wholly unfair thing to say.

Seems to me like the world leaders are in fact men, though I know of a few women, but it is the men leaders who are and have taken countries into war.

So unless you can prove that somehow us scandalous women are behind all these wars you may want to recheck those barbs you just threw out there.

[architectlink]

riding for me, except I bid thee.


really hit my funny bone! :laugh

Sorry about that, but I think this discussion is going to go nowhere

and

fast.

I think lots of prayer and focusing on a good women's bible study, like Beth Moore. Jesus ministry was really used by women to GLORIFY him. God put you in this position for a reason.

Remember John Jesus' last prayer before they captured him John 17:

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

[Maria]

I am a manager of a group of 20 people, most of whom are not Christian. I am looking for some websites that can give me some help on applying Biblical principles in a basically wordly setting. For example, how do I encourage people to be good stewards, to love one another etc etc without it sounding like I am preaching. Does anyone know of any websites where I can get some help with this?

I know you already have lots of responses here.... I haven't read them all but I sympathize with you.... I am not in a management position but I can relate to the what should be the best way to let others know of your moral values and christian values without sounding too preachy....

I do pray first to God for guidance and the best thing that has worked for me is my personal testimony... NO to tell them what God did for me but the way I behave, speak, etc.

Many people know either that I am a Christian or know that "something" is different... The occasion has risen when someone has asked me directly and that's when I tell them of my "secret" identity :laugh I also kinda know when I can say certain things and also when not... Some people are more receptive than others and I just pick the moment to say whatever needs to be said about the Lord.

But in your position as manager must be even more difficult... since it could affect things for you and your superiors... But, hey, the Lord knows and I am sure you are in this position by no chance... :wave

[pilgrimgal]

Thank you Changes.

And Jacob- BTW I am not "resistant" to working in the home. In addition to working 40+ hours per week as the primary breadwinner I am the one who plans the menus, cooks the meals, cleans up after I cook, makes the beds, mops the floors, cleans the bathrooms, changes the sheets... In others words I am also the primary homemaker. Once again, if you are willing to pay me my current salary for staying home and being a "full-time" homemaker I'll be happy to go from two full time jobs to one and meet your expectations of a Biblical woman.

[RobinB]

Hmm, I just saw the thread title, and I am thinking I don't want some PMS'ing woman managing the nuclear bomb arsenal.

:bolt


:rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

Fris is right, though, it should be run by a hot-headed male with testosterone-induced-cave-protecting instincts.

[frisian1970]

What a horrible and wholly unfair thing to say.

Seems to me like the world leaders are in fact men, though I know of a few women, but it is the men leaders who are and have taken countries into war.

So unless you can prove that somehow us scandalous women are behind all these wars you may want to recheck those barbs you just threw out there.


Mercy, I was kidding.

:redface

[B A N E]

For those that have played Warcraft...

Zug Zug!

[RobinB]

Mercy, I was kidding.

:redface


In Fris's defense, yes, in his own weird way, he was kidding
(too much time among the threadkillers, you know)


:rolleyes

[Jacob]

Originally Posted by Jacob

The Lord commands us in Titus 2 that women must be "workers at home." The original greek is "oikourgouß." It is a combination of the greek word "Oikos" = home and "urgos" = worker.

What's wrong with you people here! Where's your COMMON SENSE? Unfortunately, too many Christians leave it at the altar, and that's not a good thing?

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God." (1 Corinthians 3:19).

[Jacob]

Maybe you guys could explain to pilgrimgal & others what they are to do?. You apparently have decided what they should not do ~ but the problem still exists

Don't "shoot the messenger"! :fear. I really didn't decide for anybody what they should or should not do. I quoted Scripture as it is written straight from the text. And to make sure that nothing was used out of context or misapplied, I consulted two commentaries written by excellent bible expositors who devoted their lives to studying and teaching God's truth without being swayed by any societal or cultural influences to be "politically correct." My motivation is to study & to understand God's Word and defend its truth, especially in this time of Church history when the visible, professing church is departing from it.


1 Timothy 2

11...A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety

You answered your own question.

[antsinmypants]

Where to begin, oh where to begin!?

:D:

I'm single, and engaged. I have to have a job to have a car and health insurance. Once I do marry, both my fiance and I plan on me taking some classes, but otherwise living and working at home, if this is at all possible when we first get married. Otherwise, I'll work part time to help with the needs- until we have kiddos, or my health prevents... why? because I'll be 1) obeying my husband 2) strengthening my language skills which I will need desperately in my future life and 3) living according to Proverbs 31, Titus 2 and the other directives in the bible for G-dly wives... in humility and submission to my husband. Until that time comes, I am to be submissive to my father and in the event that I am not under his roof, to my grandfather - amazingly enough- not all women have a male to be submissive to, so they can only submit to YHVH, rather than a male authority figure and thereby also to YHVH.

That being said, I want to remind everyone of something. Workers at home, doesn't just mean working with the kids and cleaning. It means managing servants/slaves and possibly selling some things in the marketplace and also purchasing needs in the market place.

Hello? Want a true opinion of what the bible teaches, a good place to start is always the Sages (talmud) and then work from there. John Gill and Jaimeson, Faucett and Brown are some of the BEST commentaries and most accurate in these senses, of staying true to what happened in History, and what the ruling councils were at the times things were written.

That being said, let us focus on the Scriptures themselves:

Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price [is] far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

Notice, A- Submissive to Husband and he trusts and condones what she does. She works with her hands to help him.

Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

She goes and buys a field (this involves going to the market/vendor and getting this on her own) -- and then she and her servants work this land.


Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

Again, she's working with her hands- making cloth/clothing-- something of value to help the household.

Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing [is] silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it]; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

Again, there she is buying and SELLING in the market places.. working outside of her home, where she worked inside to make things!!!

Pro 31:25 Strength and honour [are] her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue [is] the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

She's strong (mentally, emotionally and physically), and she is honorable in all things. She doesn't worry or fret, and knows that Joy comes in the morning!
She is smart, and kind, and makes sure first of all that her house is cared for, and that others are cared for. She doesn't just sit around and do nothing.

It's said in Talmud, dependant on the wealth of the husband, and the amount of children a woman has, depends on how many servants she can have, and what she's allowed to sit around and not do.
Once she has 4 or 5 servants, she's allowed to sit around, look pretty and do more than embroider-- but here is Solomon saying in the wisdom and inspiration of YHVH, that no G-dly woman just sits around, but stays busy.. working in AND out of the home.

Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 "Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all!"
Pro 31:30 Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.


And amazingly enough, all over the world, there are husbands and children who recite this passage by heart, to their wife/mother EVERY Shabbat.

How many of us are worthy of that? :lol


To anyone who says a woman must work only in the home, forget that G-d designed woman to be a helper, suitable to do almost ANYTHING her husband requires of her to help him around the house, the field or in the job market.

I'd like you guys to remember Dorcas and Lydia of Paul's writings (And Luke's of Acts!)-- not to mention Paul's good friends, the tent makers, who are mentioned by name-- one of them being a woman!

:wave


In HIM,

-ants

[PreTribber]

Wonders how midwives became midwives [they're in the Bible], without ever leaving their homes.

Wonders too about Rebekah's nurse.

Also tries to picture the world with nothing but men teachers, men nurses, men secretaries, men hairstylists, men maids, no women believers at all in any of these fields, to which by the way, they have contributed greatly [both men and women].

[Whosoever]

It's amazing how no one ever wants to touch the subject of Deborah, who (as I mentioned before) oversaw men--with God's blessing. If all women are truly expected to work at home the Bible would be contradicting itself, and we all know it doesn't.

Don't "shoot the messenger"! . I really didn't decide for anybody what they should or should not do. I quoted Scripture as it is written straight from the text. Are you sure you didn't quote Scripture under the light of your interpretation of the text? If your interpretation was correct, it would be contradicting such things in the Bible like I mentioned above. The Bible is never incorrect; interpretations often are.
And to make sure that nothing was used out of context or misapplied, I consulted two commentaries written by excellent bible expositors who devoted their lives to studying and teaching God's truth without being swayed by any societal or cultural influences to be "politically correct."

You quoted an awful lot from John Gill and Matthew Henry.

Gill died in 1771, and Henrys "Commentary on the Whole Bible" was originally written in 1706. 18th century women were considered far less than men. Find a more up-to-date source. A 250 year dead Chauvinist sin't going to cut it.Not to mention the fact commentators' interpretations of text are not in the Bible and, therefore, fallible.

I consider myself a spectator in this thread (mainly because these are the kinds of threads where nothing ever gets solved) but if we're going to take things "in context", we need to include the rest of the Bible in that.

[antsinmypants]

It's amazing how no one ever wants to touch the subject of Deborah, who (as I mentioned before) oversaw men--with God's blessing. If all women are truly expected to work at home the Bible would be contradicting itself, and we all know it doesn't...


I usually do, but in the last such thread, Carlos said it was useless to bring up an OT woman. therefore I took from the scriptures what the women of the NT were living-- proverbs 31 as a directive and showed it paralleled Titus 2. :):

I might post later, but it's totally dependent on how i feel after driving again, services and cleaning some in preparation of incoming visitors at my house not to mention going to the Dr about my wrist again on the 1st of the week before work on monday.


If i don't see ya'll before then, have a blessed Shabbat :): :hug

[Jacob]

Oh boy, where to begin.....Actually you took selected text and applied your own meaning. Not only that, but the passage you quoted from 2 Timothy isn't about the workplace...it's about worship."

Actually, I quoted Titus, in which Paul warns Titus about false teaching that has been spreading (1:10).

In chapter 2, Paul starts by instructing Titus is to "speak the things that are fitting for sound doctrine." In other words, this is solid teaching on the Christian life for all believers.

The things Titus is supposed to teach are: temperance, dignified character, soundness in the faith, love, perserverence, reverent behavior, abstaining from gossip, sobriety, and teaching what is good, all of which are expected conduct for Christian's today.

The instructions to younger women are to: Love their husbands and children, to be sensible and pure, and to be "workers at home" and "subject to their own husbands, are given so that the Word of God is not dishonored.

Nobody would argue that women today are to love their husbands and children, to be sensible and pure etc. Yet, for some reason, instructing women to be "workers at home" doesn't really mean what it says, even though the definitions of the greek word make it even more clear.

They rationalize that "worker at home" is an option and & that having working outside the home in the workforce is also OK. Or, if it is accepted exactly how it is written, then the argument is that this was some "women hating" bias that was inserted into the divine text to be mistakenly taken as God's literal truth. And also, some infer that the need for extra money justifies disobedience to this instruction. While there are certain passages that apply to cultural settings, and that we must draw a secondary application from them, this is not one of them.

...Gill died in 1771, and Henrys "Commentary on the Whole Bible" was originally written in 1706. 18th century women were considered far less than men. Find a more up-to-date source. A 250 year dead Chauvinist sin't going to cut it

Was Jesus a chauvinist because He selected all men to be apostles?
You cannot prove that Gill and Henry were wrong simply because they lived at an earlier time. The logical conclusion is that I would not be able to quote from the early Church fathers, much less the bible itself, because they are not up to date. The same argument that certain passage of the bible (usually the ones that are too difficult for us to accept personally) cannot be taken literally because they are not up to date with modern society are also used now to justify evolution, abortion, easy divorce, sex outside of marriage, and the latest craze: gay marriages.

Some apostates have even been less chauvinistic by offering to remove all male gender references about God from the bible; e.g., God being our father to God being our "parent." Gill and Henry can be trusted because they lived and taught in an era when the bible was at least respected as a divine truth, unlike today.

Perhaps because today's society requires a double income???? I know in my household, we cannot get by without my wife working. Many families are the same...but put the blame where it belongs. Not on women that must work, but on large corporate greed that squeezes every last dollar out of the average family forcing women to work.

There are some people who believe that corporate America will squeeze out every last dollar because there are people who are willing to spend it, and then borrow off of their VISA when they don't have it to spend.

However, I grew up in an era when a husband's/father's one income provided what a family needed. Not only my mother, but all the mother's of my friends in the neighborhood were always at home. We were not rich by any means. And juvenile crime was not what it is today either.

When women started leaving their homes en masse to get careers outside the home, prices increased and inflation went up because a two income household meant more spending power. And for those for whom two incomes don't make enough, there is the credit card.

You go on to cite Satan's agenda. No doubt true,

Well, if it is Satan's agenda, then women should not be working in the marketplace no matter what the reason.

In addition, how wonderfully Chauvinistic of you to imply that women are somehow less than men

That is what the radical feminist agenda would say. It is a spin off from their rhetoric that a woman who devotes her life to her family and being a homemaker is inferior. Whoever decided that being a housewife is demeaning? God never said it. Yet, Satan implanted into the mind of Eve back in the garden of Eden that God was being a chavunist and holding her back from realizing her full potential by forbidding her to eat the forbidden fruit. And it appears that the same lie is being used against women today.

I wonder what the feminists have to say when Paul wrote to Timothy: "I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also....But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures" (2 Timothy 1:3-5; 3:15).

I have a wonderfully gifted niece studying to become a Pharmacist - a straghit A student. I also have two daughters of my own whom I hope will go on to become a Marine Biologist, and Veteranarian respectively. How dare you suggest that they should forego their dreams and God-given talents simply because they were born female.

I am sure that God will bless them as long as they use their God given abilities according to His Will as it is revealed in the Scriptures.

[Jacob]

Thank you Changes.

And Jacob- BTW I am not "resistant" to working in the home. In addition to working 40+ hours per week as the primary breadwinner I am the one who plans the menus, cooks the meals, cleans up after I cook, makes the beds, mops the floors, cleans the bathrooms, changes the sheets... In others words I am also the primary homemaker. Once again, if you are willing to pay me my current salary for staying home and being a "full-time" homemaker I'll be happy to go from two full time jobs to one and meet your expectations of a Biblical woman.

I desire to know and understand God's Word, to "rightly divide the Word of truth." These are not my expectations of a biblical woman. It is what the Bible teaches. I cannot change what the Lord inspired Paul to write, nor am I going to water down its plain meaning.

In 1 Timothy 5, Paul instructs Christians that, if there is a woman among them who does not have a husband to provide for them, then her family members are to provide for her. In the event that she has no family, or they are unwilling to do so, then the church must step in and do so. Paul says that any Christian who fails to take up this responsibility has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. But, even in a situation when a woman does not have a husband to be the breadwinner, God does not make a provision for her to enter the marketplace and get her own job, her family or the church is to provide.

This brings me to another point: Whenever "giving" is discussed in the New Testament, it is always used in the context of the money that is collected in the church is specifically designated to meet the needs of the poor Christians. I know of one church in my area whose budget for this year is 1.5 million$$. The amount they have designated for the "Benovalent Fund" for the entire year is $4,000. - not enough to even feed a family of four on for one year. As far as I am concerned, this is not only robbing people, but it is robbing God. Jesus said at the Last Supper that people will know we are Christians if we love one another...and John said in his 3rd epistle that we show that love when we meet the needs of other poor believers.

[Whosoever]

I usually do, but in the last such thread, Carlos said it was useless to bring up an OT woman. therefore I took from the scriptures what the women of the NT were living-- proverbs 31 as a directive and showed it paralleled Titus 2. :):

I might post later, but it's totally dependent on how i feel after driving again, services and cleaning some in preparation of incoming visitors at my house not to mention going to the Dr about my wrist again on the 1st of the week before work on monday.


If i don't see ya'll before then, have a blessed Shabbat :): :hugSorry ants, I wasn't referring to you--I guess I should have been more specific. :doh My point was that those who say OT examples are "useless" are those who usually don't have a solid rebuff to my question. Last I checked the OT is still part of the Bible, and the Bible never contradicts itself. That means if someone is saying the OT is contradicting the NT they need to re-examine their interpretations.

And before anyone starts on the "New Covenant, old laws passed away" thing, I'm well aware of it. But if we still use David and Goliath as an example of Christians doing God's will, then discounting Deborah's role is discrediting both her and God. To continually take Scripture out of context from the rest of the Bible and insist it's God's word isn't very wise; insisting all women must work inside the home while the Bible gives examples to prove differently is equally unwise.

Shabbat Shalom to you as well, ants, and I hope your wrist feels better.

[Jacob]

It's amazing how no one ever wants to touch the subject of Deborah, who (as I mentioned before) oversaw men--with God's blessing. If all women are truly expected to work at home the Bible would be contradicting itself, and we all know it doesn't.

I did touch on this very briefly in a previous post.

However, God said in Isaiah 3:11-12: "Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, for what he deserves will be done to him. O My people! Their oppressors are children, and women rule over them."

Thus, from this verse, it appears that Deborah's experience was the exception rather than the rule, which is something that we must exercise great care in when using biblical examples to establish doctrine. She was the only female Judge. There are other biblical examples of men and women who acted outside the scope of God's word, believing that they were doing God's will, and brought disasterous results.

The Bible says that "God raised up Judges" for Israel. (Judges 2:16). Deborah was a prophtess, someone who was capable of receiving direct revelation from God.. That is a gift that is no longer in use today. God tells us that His Word will "perfect us" and "equip us for every good work." Thus, since we have complete revelation today of all that God wants us to know, He will never lead us to do something which is contrary to what He wrote in His word for us to do.

Deborah was a unique example and there are lessons to learn about her example. But saying that women can push aside the biblical injunction of working at home and go into the marketplace for a career outside the home is not one of them. She received a special divine intervention and appointment at a critical time in the nation of Israel when God was preparing a nation and a people for His Messiah to come through.

Are you sure you didn't quote Scripture under the light of your interpretation of the text? If your interpretation was correct, it would be contradicting such things in the Bible like I mentioned above. The Bible is never incorrect; interpretations often are.

And the point that I made before is that I quoted Scripture and defined what the greek words meant from respected greek lexicons, and then let the message speak for itself.

Not to mention the fact commentators' interpretations of text are not in the Bible and, therefore, fallible.

It is also true that people can resist God's Word rather aggressively when it applies to them and calls them to forsake something that they are unwilling to let go of. Nobody could interpret God's Word better than Jesus, yet the outcome of His preaching was that they crucified Him. The gospels record that a lot of people rejected Jesus because they did not want to be put out of the synagogue - which would have meant social and financial ruin. So, the crowd that hollered "hosanna to the Son of David..." on Palm Sunday, later hollered "crucify Him" less than one week later.

Hypothetically speaking, if what I wrote about Titus 2:5 and women working at home is correct, then that means that a lot of women and houeholds are obligated to make some radical changes, or else they are out of the will of God. That is the kind of repentance that shakes people out of their comfort level, and that results in defensiveness and ways to explain away the meaning of the passage.

Paul teaches that human beings have a propensity for rejecting biblical truth and believing the lie: "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully" (2 Cor. 11).

[Hyssop]

*snip*

People tend to forget her a lot.

A woman in a position of power is precedented and, apparently, Biblical.

Israel may have been enslaved at the time, but it doesn't erase the fact there were men she oversaw.

Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, it is the interpretations that are in err.

Most of what I'm seeing quoted refers to worship, not the secular workforce. It sounds like what's being said is that women shouldn't hold any position at work that oversees a task involving men. As we've seen, God allows it when, as always, it's in His will (just as He allows men in those same positions when it's His will.)

.

You need to remember God also allowed men to have plural wives in the OT, yet I don't think that that is the NT ideal, do you?... So how is it different than what you are proposing here?

Do we pick and choose from the OT??

[Whosoever]

You need to remember God also allowed men to have plural wives in the OT, yet I don't think that that is the NT ideal, do you?... So how is it different than what you are proposing here?

Do we pick and choose from the OT??He allowed it, He didn't condone it. Solomon wasn't following God's commands in having many wives, he was going along with the world's culture at the time. The Bible simply records his actions, and nowhere does it say God approved of it.

And to Jacob, all I can say is, God didn't say "Deborah was the exception to the rule". If you can show me where He did (in context, not in interpretation,) I might change my perspective. The "Greek words" you mentioned have been interpreted in several different fashions when put in context, and the interpretation you mentioned is one of many, so to say "the Scripture speaks for itself" when the way its presented goes against other parts of the Bible, the statement is in error.

I know you think you're right and won't change your opinion any time soon, and neither will I, so we seem to have come to a stalemate in trying to change one another's opinions (especially on a thread where the OPer wasn't looking to be condemned for her actions).

[Jael]

In 1 Timothy 5, Paul instructs Christians that, if there is a woman among them who does not have a husband to provide for them, then her family members are to provide for her. In the event that she has no family, or they are unwilling to do so, then the church must step in and do so. Paul says that any Christian who fails to take up this responsibility has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. But, even in a situation when a woman does not have a husband to be the breadwinner, God does not make a provision for her to enter the marketplace and get her own job, her family or the church is to provide.

I Timothy 5 deals with widows...and specifically older widows:

1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man

Show me again, IN SCRIPTURE, where able, unmarried women are not allowed to work and support themselves? I'm not interested in a commentator's opinion...I'd like scripture, please...

[antsinmypants]

Hyssop & Whosoever:

Solomon and David BOTH were disobeying YHVH on the multiple wives rule-- in that in Torah, He says he does not want the kings to have many wives.

Exibit a:




Deu 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that [are] about me;
Deu 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set [him] king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: [one] from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which [is] not thy brother.
Deu 17:16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
Deu 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:
Deu 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
Deu 17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.


I might touch on the rest later, but I can say this, the word for "Keepers at home" in Greek does agree with Proverbs 31 in working IN and OUT of the home at the same time.

[antsinmypants]

Here is something more to chew on ;):

I haven't dealt with everyone or everything, but these are the highlights that are currently sticking out in my mind.

Not to mention, NEVER EVER do you find YHVH directing women to just listen to ANY MAN-- but her FATHER, or MALE RELATIVE providing for her-- or HER HUSBAND.

You find that somewhere, other than her being told to learn in silence in the assemblies (which was already dictated in Oral Torah and penned in Talmud, and generally accepted in the Temple as well, other than them singing hymns and psalms- - and playing musical instruments and dancing...) -- post it, and I will stand corrected.


Here is what I have..



Proverbs 31 woman in the NT:



Exibit A:

Act 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
Act 9:37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid [her] in an upper chamber.
Act 9:38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring [him] that he would not delay to come to them.
Act 9:39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
Act 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
Act 9:41 And he gave her [his] hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
Act 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

Exhibit B:

Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Act 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Act 16:11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next [day] to Neapolis;
Act 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, [and] a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard : whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought , saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.

Exhibit C:

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: [u]for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.


Exhibit D: (correction, i said it was Peter's daughters, and it was Phillips!)



Act 21:8 And the next [day] we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was [one] of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Exhibit E: Greetings and showing women were apostles and disciples too-- Paul's writings:

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the assembly which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the assemblies of the nations.
Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the assembly that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Rom 16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
Rom 16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
Rom 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' [household].
Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
Rom 16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
Rom 16:14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The assemblies of Christ salute you.



Exhibit F:

1Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the assembly that is in their house.



Exhibit G: Rules of Worship:

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to learn in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Exhibit H: Rules of worship, Choosing a Shepherd and helper for him:

1Ti 3:1 This a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine [meaning not addicted to alchohol], no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice [new believer, young man], lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without [not of the congregation, but of the world]; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.
1Ti 3:11 [u]Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, [i]ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Exhibit I:

1 Timothy 5 deals with unmarried women and widows. Pay attention to all of it, and not just one verse.


Exhibit J:

Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tts 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tts 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Tts 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Tts 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tts 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

[cenimo]

Can I try to make a parllel here?

In martial arts we teach that what worked 150 years ago for a 5'1" 140 pound Japanese against another 5'1" 140 pound Japanese just may not work in the streets of America today against a 6' 5" assailant.

Can we agree that current economic conditions have driven women into the workforce, many that are working, no, most that are working do so for survival of the family, and not for luxury? Or they and a child or two or three or more are the family?

i.e.
What applied for OT and NT characters in this case just may not be easy to adhere to today. In many cultures then, and now, it is acceptable that a man can have as many wives as "he can feed" (care for).

It's real nice to be able to quote Timothy backwards and forwards but if you need a reader on Sunday and none of the men are willing, guess who you're going to ask.

[Whosoever]

Ants and cenimo, you both have brought up good points: a woman is subject to her father or husband rather than every man that walks by. That is Biblical, no matter who interprets it. And ants, that's great Scripture you posted--I haven't even read through all of it yet, but I'm definitely bookmarking the verses online. It's also true that, despite all our academic arguments, the fact remains that today's society does indeed require women to "work for their supper" so to speak. Today the money from two-income households goes toward mortgage and food instead of perfume and jewelry. If a woman is led by God not to get a job and to rely on Him for her family's income, may God bless her and uphold her, but that's not always the case.

I'd also add the fact that God uses people according to the time they're living in. In ancient times women were mostly housewives, so God used them as housewives for His glory. Today women are out in the working field, as doctors, lawyers, financial advisors, et cetera. Whether people think that's a "correct" station for women or not, He leads them to these positions for His glory. To suggest otherwise would be like telling those who are led by the Lord into certain jobs that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a feeling.

[B A N E]

:popcorn

[Jacob]

And to Jacob, all I can say is, God didn't say "Deborah was the exception to the rule". If you can show me where He did (in context, not in interpretation,) I might change my perspective. The "Greek words" you mentioned have been interpreted in several different fashions when put in context, and the interpretation you mentioned is one of many, so to say "the Scripture speaks for itself" when the way its presented goes against other parts of the Bible, the statement is in error.

I never said that God said Deborah was the only female Judge. I pointed out a mathematical truth. She was the only Judge in Israel's Old Testament days who was a woman.


I know you think you're right and won't change your opinion any time soon, and neither will I, so we seem to have come to a stalemate in trying to change one another's opinions (especially on a thread where the OPer wasn't looking to be condemned for her actions)

I quoted from Titus 2:5 as my primary text for believing that a woman must be a worker at home. I cited some other passages as well. I cited comments from two commentaries written by bible scholars who hold to the same view regarding what Scripture says, I defined the greek word for "workers at home" just as the lexicons defined it, nothing more or nothing less. Nobody has presented me with any exegesis, scholarship, or research about Titus 2:5 text that tells me that I cannot take the exhortation of women being "workers at home" at face value as it appears in the text. And since Scripture does not contradict itself, there is no other passages that teach the contrary as a principle for the women of God in general to follow.

However, at this point I have said all that I can say. I don't want to belabor my views and anything I might say now will just be a matter of repetition. Therefore, I am done with this one for now.

I started studying this particular issue because I heard a bible teacher preach the same view, and I started out to prove him wrong and changed my position because the more I studied it objectively, the more convinced I was it was true. I have to be thorough about this because it touches my life personally regarding my wife's decision to go to work in the workforce or be at worker at home. I don't want to miss God's will on this issue. I have also seen the wisdom of God behind this view as well. In my field of work, I have seen marriages wrecked because of women and men meeting each other in the workplace and getting into adulterous affairs that probably would not have happened otherwise. Interestingly, most of them were not looking for it to happen. It just happened as they worked together and thought they had more in common with each other than with their spouse. I am not saying that every woman who goes to work is looking for someone else. But, God tells us not to put ourselves in temptations way, and a lot of things I have seen over 20 years started out innocent enough and ended up somewhere it shouldn't.

[pilgrimgal]

:mad :mad :mad :mad

I want to respond but am too :mad to make it an acceptable response for a family oriented Christian Board.

To say that a woman who is single (unmarried or widowed) or whose husband is unable to support financially BUT ARE ABLE to work should be supported by other leaves me speechless. To basically be told that I should go on welfare and live in the street makes my blood boil. And to hear that after 17 years of totally committed and monogamous marriage that I'm probably unconsciously looking for an affair because I'm out there busting a hump to have a place to live, food to eat,clothes to wear and medical insurance is past being offensive.

[B A N E]

pilgrimgal,
reread Prov31 and know that you're a blessing to your family.