What is the difference?

[Drpepper687]

I have a question about people who die each day, and the appocalypse. Ok lets say I still have a grandfather, who is a nice person, never commited any horrible sins, and was just passive about religion, never doubted it, just never got around to it. Lets say he dies, now because he isnt a murderer or serial rapist or theif, he doesnt go to Hell, God judges him on his heart. OK I understand that.

Lets say the Rapture happens in my lifetime, isnt the Rapture a much more thorough investion of your soul, and this time it requires that you accept jesus verbally and/or directly to him? So if I died today, my heart would be judged on its purity, but if I lived to the Rapture, I would be judged on verbally/directly accepting Jesus?

If you say, "No, when you die you have to have accepted Jesus to go to heaven", then all my family members and friends who died are burning in Hell?!?

[WatchingForHim]

If you say, "No, when you die you have to have accepted Jesus to go to heaven", then all my family members and friends who died are burning in Hell?!?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I've heard it said Hell will be filled with good people. People who had the opportunity to accept Jesus, but did not.

There are people in my family like that too, and I pray for them.

[Drpepper687]

This isnt making any sense to me, God is supposed to judge your heart at the gates.

[Chris4Christ]

This isnt making any sense to me, God is supposed to judge your heart at the gates.And what He is judging is whether or not our hearts belong to him...not whether or not they are "good." If that was the standard, a "good" heart, NOBODY would enter heaven.

The standard is ALWAYS whether we have accepted or rejected Jesus Christ as our savior...doesn't matter if we're going before or after the Rapture. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise? Maybe I'm not understanding your initial question.

[Drpepper687]

So what you are telling me is that people who are in my family that have died are in Hell? Right, I suddenly have a warm glow in my heart. They should be banished to Hell if they killed someone! I dont think God would banish them to Hell and all that eternal torture because they never thought of saying thank you. If they know it in their hearts then thats like saying it right?

Tell me BTW, what was the requirement before Jesus arrived on earth? If you can tell me this, then I can go foreward with what Im gonna say. If God already had a requirement for getting into Heaven, then it still is a requirement now, just accepting Jesus is the EZ-Pass on the thruway to Heaven. Is this true? Is accepting Jesus your definate ticket to heaven, but if you never said it God has to go through his way of checking your soul before he lets you in?

[seeker42]

This isnt making any sense to me, God is supposed to judge your heart at the gates.

That assumption is faulty (though well intended). God does not judge your heart at the gates. God judges your heart at the point in time that you have personal knowledge of Him, and what you do with that knowledge at that time.

God says in Romans 1 & 2 that God writes on the heart of humans the knowledge of Himself within their hearts, and it is on THAT basis that He holds them accountable. Those who have heard about Jesus Christ are judged based on their reaction to whether they accept Jesus Christ and ask him for the forgiveness of their sins. But those who have not heard about Jesus are still judged based on the knowledge of God that He writes into the heart of every human.

I may not know the extent to which a person accepts or rejects God somewhere in Africa or in the Jungle, but God knows.


Seeker

[seeker42]

Tell me BTW, what was the requirement before Jesus arrived on earth? If you can tell me this, then I can go foreward with what Im gonna say. If God already had a requirement for getting into Heaven, then it still is a requirement now, just accepting Jesus is the EZ-Pass on the thruway to Heaven. Is this true?


Before Jesus came to Earth, people were saved by believing in that Messiah and that the Messiah would come.
That Messiah was Jesus Christ and He came to Earth, died for us and rose again.
Now the requirement is to believe that Jesus Christ HAS come and that he died for us.

Before He came, people believed He would come. Now we know he Has come (past tense) and ask Him to forgive us of our sins and save us.

God says that Abraham believed God and God accounted that to him as righteousness. What the standard is for each person is hard to say, but none of us can fool God. So He actually knows whether we accept Him and ask him for forgiveness or not.

About relatives, just for the record, almost all of us have relatives who will be eternally separated from God. You may not think that they had the chance to be saved, but God gives this chance to whoever believes in Him. I suspect that actually, it is worse in Hell for those who had the chance to hear about Christ and decided not to accept Him.

Seeker

[Drpepper687]

Yes, I mean, a native in the jungles who has never had the chance to hear about christianity or God, and then instead turns to worshiping th plants and animals, thats not his fault! He never could fathom christianity or a God. How do you explain their situation?

[Drpepper687]

You know, somedays, it think im going to be struck down by lightning for knowing to much...

[seeker42]

There are no gates to Heaven (though there may be gates to the New Jerusalem city mentionted in Revelations).

When people die, they either are in one place (Heaven) or in the Other (Hell). The only other variable is that those who are in Hell will be judged for their sins - and for refusing to accept the Grace of God and His offer of Free Salvation.

We may not like it, but whoever really is God is the one who sets the rules. All we can do is respond to the choices we have. And for anyone who has relatives who are Eternally separated from God, the important point is to make sure that We do not make that same mistake.

We want often to delude ourselves into thinking that we are God, we decide our own destiny, and our fate. God says that He controls everything. Your next thought, your next breathe - is only by His grace and His decision to sustain you - in the universe.


Don't squander your chance.


Seeker

(I will respond to your next post in a moment)

[WatchingForHim]

Yes, I mean, a native in the jungles who has never had the chance to hear about christianity or God, and then instead turns to worshiping th plants and animals, thats not his fault! He never could fathom christianity or a God. How do you explain their situation?

Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

God has written upon the hearts of man knowledge of him. It is our sense of "oughtness" or "rightness" about our actions. Our concsience witnesses to this effect.

If a person, through whatever situation, never heard of God or Jesus, they would still through the knowledge that God gave them know the difference between right and wrong, and they will be judged on it.

[Drpepper687]

Ill ask a question about heaven after you reply

[seeker42]

You know, somedays, it think im going to be struck down by lightning for knowing to much...

(Jumping sequence for a moment)

Your response – explains why philosphers wrestle with Freedom. As a concept, Freedom is nice. But once we have the freedom to make the choice and to retain the knowledge – that choice is much more difficult.

A God hating atheist philosopher wrote the book “Escape From Freedom”. It was his idea that what all of us secretly want ...is to run from our Freedom, because we cannot obtain our Freedom without the responsibility that goes with it.

You seem to be understanding that point...rather well.


God responds to that in the Bible, where He states that whatever [understanding] we have already attained ,that is what we are to live up to.


Seeker
:):

[seeker42]

then instead turns to worshiping th plants and animals, thats not his fault! He never could fathom christianity or a God. How do you explain their situation?


Its like Watching for Him just said: The laws of God, the fact that there is a God and that we are accountable to Him, is written on the hearts of men. They do not need someone to explicitly explain who Jesus Christ is ...for them to have an awareness of who God is. God writes this into their hearts in anycase, and even though they have not heard of Jesus Christ.

That is why the Bible says that all of us are “without excuse” – because He has already given us the knowledge of Himself, and thereby taken any excuse away.

Edited to Add: That is why God holds them responsible for their choice of whether to accept Him or not, whether or not they have heard specifically about Jesus Christ or not. How they respond to God and the knowledge that he HAS given them...determines their eternal destiny.

Seeker

[Drpepper687]

Thanks for the compliment, I have been told I have a great mind and have the ability to really make a huge difference in the world and become a really powerful and just individual. But enough flattering myself. I have always thought: what is beyond God, and who made him, and who is his God or peers, and I start to imagine the galaxies spiraling into the universe, and then the blank white space that is beyond that, and thats where I stop cause I get a headache lol.

Well anyway, I have a question about Heaven. Now everything in heaven is just peachy. Well I think if my family members did go to hell, I would take that with me forever even in heaven. What people sometimes say gives me the impression that its like one big cosmic anti-depressant drug, and you forget all the bad things. truth is your brothers and sisters are still suffering on Earth, how could your mind be at peace? That would be like false information and deception right?

[seeker42]

I look forward to the thoughts of others as they jump in. After the Rapture, there will be 7 years of judgement, another war, and then another 1000 years on Earth. Those who are Christians on earth will be helping those humans who will have been born during the millennium (1000 years), and who missed the time period prior to that [that we are now in].

At that point, I would suspect that the stories of your and mine and others – about the relatives who did not make the wise choice...would be relevant to those new humans who were born in those days – yet to come.

Personally, I think that we will not forget events before our being in Heaven, but the Bible does speak of a time when He will wipe away all tears.

Its great that you understand these things, but don’t forget that the important thing is to actually ask Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and ask Him to come into your life. Many people have intellectually understood what it took to have eternal life, without making that final choice. The thing about a free gift – as you know – is that it must be accepted.


Seeker
:):

[Mountain Girl]

[ They should be banished to Hell if they killed someone! I dont think God would banish them to Hell and all that eternal torture because they never thought of saying thank you.

When the death angel passed over the Hebrews when they were in Egypt, why did he pass over them? Because of the blood of the lamb on the door posts. It will be the same with us when we die.........if we are born again when we die, God will look at us and see the blood that Jesus shed for us, He will see Jesus dying on the cross taking our punishment for our sins. That's the only reason we get into heaven.

Just because your loved ones weren't outspoken about their faith, doesn't mean they weren't born again.

Read John 3:3 to see what Jesus told Nicodemus about going to heaven.

I wish I had an answer about people who haven't heard the gospel message. I don't know the answer. I do know that God is full of love and mercy. I trust Him to judge these people fairly.

[Drpepper687]

I have a question about the 1000yr thing. What is that about? why isnt he taken care of when Jesus comes back? And why is it mentioned so suddenly and briefly in the bible that he will be let out and destroyed? What is the purpose of that?

[Drpepper687]

Tonight I plan on making more progress in my understanding so lets go.

[Lonewolf7]

I have a question about people who die each day, and the appocalypse. Ok lets say I still have a grandfather, who is a nice person, never commited any horrible sins, and was just passive about religion, never doubted it, just never got around to it.


All of mankind is born on death row.....destined for hell, even the nicest person you know ...

Jesus came to seek and save that which is LOST.....spiritually dead, separated from God....as of yet , unforgiven.

When we each come to Jesus Christ in faith and beg Him to forgive our sins and save our souls.......He can legally forgive our sins by His sacrifice for our sins upon the cross.

Jesus Christ then 'saves' us by putting His Holy Spirit into our bodies....making us spiritually alive....NOT dead ......ie eternal life.

That is what....'born again' means......born of His Spirit....alive forever.

[seeker42]

about the 1000yr thing. What is that about? why isnt he taken care of when Jesus comes back? And why is it mentioned so suddenly and briefly in the bible that he will be let out and destroyed? What is the purpose of that?


Because all history and historic unfolding of events in time are there as testaments to the power and glory (and compassion) of God.

People have been blaming the Devil for a long time. “The Devil made me do it”. But God wants to show that Sin, the corruption inherent in the hearts of humans – is enough of a basis for them to reject Him – whether the Devil is around or not.

So the Devil will be locked up for One Thousand Years, not able to affect humans. During that time, Christ will reign (Christians will reign with Him), and the newly born humans will have to contend with their own choices and their own nature (sin nature) – without having a Devil to blame it on.

After that, there will be a final war when the Devil is briefly released. He will fight against God, and loose. At that point his loss becomes permanent, and he goes to the place of His eternity: Hell – which was originally created for Him.

God will continue to be Glorified, and we will continue to be with Him.


:clap :):

[Drpepper687]

Where really is hell? Could it be the core of the earth?

[Drpepper687]

Comeon, quick short answers....

[seeker42]

Hell is two things, then 2 more:

1. A state of Separation from God...for Eternity
2. A State of suffering permanently for ....eternity

3. A state of loneliness- because in Hell people are separated one from another
4. A place of memories – because people who are there will have eternity to think about those moments, when they had the opportunity to make a different choice, and still refused to .

As far as its location, as others will state, Hell in the O.T. is more of a temporary Hell [which may have been at the core of the Earth – but this is conjecture]. The permanent one is the one that was created originally for the Devil and his fallen God-rejecting angels – called demons.

After the un-repentent humans have been judged for their sins at what is known as the Judgement of the Bema Seat, then they will join the Devil in his permanent Hell, which is also the lake of fire. (at least, that is my understanding of this).


Some of this can be found in the book by Hal Lindsey “Satan is alive and well on planet Earth”


Seeker

[Drpepper687]

OK, I have to get ready for bed, ill check this topic tomorrow in school, goodnight!

[Drpepper687]

Before I go, Is it honorable for a person to want to stay behind to aide those left behind? Even though it wouldnt happen if you are that dedicated to God's cause?

[seeker42]

Before I go, Is it honorable for a person to want to stay behind to aide those left behind? Even though it wouldnt happen if you are that dedicated to God's cause?


It may be well intentioned, but the first thing that we must do is trust God and that means trusting Him to be sovereign. It is impossible for us to stay behind. There is a very strong chance that the people who have had the chance to hear the gospel, but are not saved - prior to the rapture, are the ones who will be given over to the delusion to accept the mark of the AC.

IT is the acceptance of that mark, that garantees that those people will never be saved. THerefore taking that mark is the surest sign of a ticket to an eternity separated from God.

THe Rapture is not optional. THose are saved Go. Those who are not saved will still be witnessed to - by 144,000 men who are Jewish whom God has specially selected for their ministry of witnessing during the Tribulation.

But these 144 K are NOT saved Prior to the Tribulation. Remember the fear quotient in the Tribulation: The politics and Disastrous Calamities (earthquakes, tidal waves, nukes, etc) are so severe that people Scream for the Mountains to Fall on top of them so that they would be killed.

That is not really going to be a fun time. While it is human to have compassion on those who are left behind ,the best thing to do is to witness to people that you are concerned about, and give them books or other things to read, so that they can confront their issues, and find out who Jesus is and How to accept Him, so that then They can pray for you, as you witness to more people.


Seeker
:):

[Walk-Worthy]

I have a question about people who die each day, and the appocalypse. Ok lets say I still have a grandfather, who is a nice person, never commited any horrible sins, and was just passive about religion, never doubted it, just never got around to it. Lets say he dies, now because he isnt a murderer or serial rapist or theif, he doesnt go to Hell, God judges him on his heart. OK I understand that.

Lets say the Rapture happens in my lifetime, isnt the Rapture a much more thorough investion of your soul, and this time it requires that you accept jesus verbally and/or directly to him? So if I died today, my heart would be judged on its purity, but if I lived to the Rapture, I would be judged on verbally/directly accepting Jesus?

If you say, "No, when you die you have to have accepted Jesus to go to heaven", then all my family members and friends who died are burning in Hell?!?


I'll answer your question as best as I can. I want to refer you to the scriptures first and then, explain what it means.

In Romans 3:23-24, God said: "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

These two verses means that ALL have sinned... it doesn't matter whether our sins are big or small. In God's eyes, we ALL sin. We are only justified (declared not guilty) through the redemption (paid our ransom) by Christ which means Christ paid our ransom by dying on the cross. This act of love is God's free gift (grace) to all mankind.

In regards to where we ALL stand with God, God is very clear that He wants us to believe what He says. If we don't believe His words, then we call Him a liar. So, if my family, friends, relatives, neighbors, or strangers do not believe that they are justified by Christ death then they will not be with Christ.

I hope I answered your question and made sense to you. God bless.

In Christ,

[joyttw]

To piggyback on what Walk-Worthy posted about sin, James 2:10 says, "For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Then James goes on to stick showing favoritism right up there with adultery and murder. And who among us has never shown favoritism? And Paul says, in Galatians I believe, that the whole world is a prisoner of sin. And as you know Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. It is only by the grace of God that ANY of us get to go to heaven. So just "being a good person" isn't going to cut it for anyone.

[antsinmypants]

So what you are telling me is that people who are in my family that have died are in Hell? Right, I suddenly have a warm glow in my heart. They should be banished to Hell if they killed someone! I dont think God would banish them to Hell and all that eternal torture because they never thought of saying thank you. If they know it in their hearts then thats like saying it right?

John Chapter 3 quite adequately answers that in the "readers digest" fashion, as well as Romans chapters 1-6.

Tell me BTW, what was the requirement before Jesus arrived on earth? If you can tell me this, then I can go foreward with what Im gonna say.

Pretty much the same as now.

Hope and pray for the Messiah, trust he will come, and when he does, he will redeem me for my faith in Him, my Trust in Him, and my Belief in Him.

Animal sacrifices were temporary "cleansing" for sin-- and a reminder that we do sin-- and a sweet smell to G-d.

Now, we trust, believe in Him, yet He HAS come already-- and will come again.

If God already had a requirement for getting into Heaven, then it still is a requirement now, just accepting Jesus is the EZ-Pass on the thruway to Heaven. Is this true? Is accepting Jesus your definate ticket to heaven, but if you never said it God has to go through his way of checking your soul before he lets you in?

Enk (Buzzer sound)

We're supposed to not only accept Him and believe in Him, but have a change of heart (just as before) and live within His ways and His commands.

There are two commandments which sum up ALL that He gave "Love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, soul and mind.. and love your neighbor as yourself.."

There is no "Easy ticket". Y'shua said it would *never be easy*, and we must take up our execution stake (Cross) and follow Him.. that NARROW was the path, and FEW that find it.

There's a reason it says Few. Too many want to believe they are "good enough" to get in, yet since the Garden of Eden-- YHVH (G-d's name) has said that it's His way, or no way at all.

That's what parents do- set rules. IF G-d said the only way through the door WAS The Door (Y'shua/Jesus said that HE is the door)-- then he meant it.

It's a hard saying, yet it is very true.

[antsinmypants]

Yes, I mean, a native in the jungles who has never had the chance to hear about christianity or God, and then instead turns to worshiping th plants and animals, thats not his fault! He never could fathom christianity or a God. How do you explain their situation?


The bible says that NO person is without excuse.

There is a WONDERFUL book out that shows just how this is, called "Spirit of the Rainforest: A Yanomamao story"

Which is about the Yanomamao Natives in South America-- and they didn't Know about YHVH the way we teach about Him, but they knew of Him as "the Creator" -- and knew Who He was, and rejected him because the other spirits told them that He was un-reachable and evil and stole the souls of children.

There were a few shamans that accepted Messiah-- and they learned the truth upon conversion.. and taught their tribe & people about Him.

They, through the help of missionaries are trying to get their story out.

I've heard many other stories about people who never heard about Him the way He is taught in the Bible, but KNEW-- and were told someone would come and tell them. There's even a thread on this same forum area about just that. (The thread... (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=149083) )

There is a verse in the bible that says that Nature itself teaches about YHVH, and everyone has a chance, and they accept or reject G-d on that basis, if by nothing else. (terrible paraphrase, but the same message nonetheless)

[Mindenite]

Before this path is walked down too far, it must be said that many if not all of the beliefs surrounding the rapture and the end of time are denominational. Lots of people don't like hearing that but it is true. From what I have heard, there are at least five different rapture timing beliefs--pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and no rapture at all. There are also at least two different beliefs in the millenial reign; it exists or it doesn't. I am not going to argue for or against any of these beliefs but it has to be known that almost all of the beliefs associated with the end of time are straight up interpretation of the Bible (in contrast to many of the concrete messages of the Bible).

I only point this out because I believe that in attempts and sometimes struggles to understand Christianity, and even to ultimately accept it as Truth, focusing on the end of the world/time isn't the best thing to do. The glory and grace of God, the sacrifice of Jesus, and the love overflowing from God, Jesus, and the Christian church (as in fellowship, not a building) should be the focus, not how it is all going to end.

[Average Joey]

This isnt making any sense to me, God is supposed to judge your heart at the gates.


Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Yes he will judge the heart and the heart of man is evil.Man hates God naturally.Murder isn`t the only sin you know.There are ten commandments.You break one and you break all.Consider these verses:

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?


Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.


Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.


Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!


Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?


Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

That man bragged to Jesus that he has kept the law since his youth.Then Jesus told him sell everything he had,give the money to the poor,and follow him.The man did not and went away sad.The same man who bragged about keeping the law broke the first and second most important commandments(Mark12:31-32) in a split second.He did not love God or his neighbor.He loved his posessions.Good person?Where was his heart?Notice that his deciples asked,"Who can be saved?".Jesus answer was basically that man cannot be saved in anything they do but with God all things are possible.This is a very humbling read.Just remember none of us are good in any way.We may put on great appearances,give to charity,be friendly,etc. but as you said"God looks on the heart."Very true!However,what does he see?Wickedness to the uttermost.When a man is nice.He is being nice not for God`s glory,but his own.When a man gives to charity.He gives so others will praise him for his gifts.Man wants to glorify himself instead of glorifying God.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

[Average Joey]

Before this path is walked down too far, it must be said that many if not all of the beliefs surrounding the rapture and the end of time are denominational. Lots of people don't like hearing that but it is true. From what I have heard, there are at least five different rapture timing beliefs--pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and no rapture at all. There are also at least two different beliefs in the millenial reign; it exists or it doesn't. I am not going to argue for or against any of these beliefs but it has to be known that almost all of the beliefs associated with the end of time are straight up interpretation of the Bible (in contrast to many of the concrete messages of the Bible).

I only point this out because I believe that in attempts and sometimes struggles to understand Christianity, and even to ultimately accept it as Truth, focusing on the end of the world/time isn't the best thing to do. The glory and grace of God, the sacrifice of Jesus, and the love overflowing from God, Jesus, and the Christian church (as in fellowship, not a building) should be the focus, not how it is all going to end.

I agree...Eschatology is not the gospel.

[EXO153]

Where really is hell? Could it be the core of the earth?


The absence of God!

[pilgrimian]

Before this path is walked down too far, it must be said that many if not all of the beliefs surrounding the rapture and the end of time are denominational. Lots of people don't like hearing that but it is true. From what I have heard, there are at least five different rapture timing beliefs--pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and no rapture at all. There are also at least two different beliefs in the millenial reign; it exists or it doesn't. I am not going to argue for or against any of these beliefs but it has to be known that almost all of the beliefs associated with the end of time are straight up interpretation of the Bible (in contrast to many of the concrete messages of the Bible).

I only point this out because I believe that in attempts and sometimes struggles to understand Christianity, and even to ultimately accept it as Truth, focusing on the end of the world/time isn't the best thing to do. The glory and grace of God, the sacrifice of Jesus, and the love overflowing from God, Jesus, and the Christian church (as in fellowship, not a building) should be the focus, not how it is all going to end.

True, and yet I disagree about eschatology. The Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view is actually no meager denominational issue. These were decided by God long before there was ever Methodist or Baptist, Arminian, or Calivinist. The Millennial Reign was decided by God long before Augustine ever allegorized what it meant.

To new Believers the Gospel should come first...but eschatology is Scripture. To be a student of the Bible is to be interested in eschatology, because so much of the Word deals with it. It isn't merely Revelation...large portions of the Old Testament must be understood to rightly comprehend how events will unfold/are unfolding.

We cannot discount eschatology. Yes, some people spend much time studying it instead of other issues. However, the Lord has told us that those who look forward to His appearing will receive a special crown. To accurately understand when His appearing will come one must be a student of His Word.

2 Timothy 4:

8Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Exo153,

Actually God is present in Hell. He's omnipresent. The fact of the matter is that those in Hell will not see His face...and therefore, will be unable to have a relationship with Him (Jeremiah 32:31; 33:5; Micah 3:4; 1 Peter 3:12; Revelation 20:11) Contrast these verse with the following (which speaks of Believers)...

Revelation 22:

1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[gzusrulzme]

I just wanted to make a comment. You asked if it would be wrong to want to be left behind to witness to others. I recommend that you not focus on that at all! Mainly because if you have not accepted Christ (i hope that you have already done so..) You could easily die today. We do not know when the rapture will occur, it could be today or 20 years from today. So dont hesitate and encourage others not to either. Today is a great day to welcome Christ! :wave

[Walk-Worthy]

To piggyback on what Walk-Worthy posted about sin, James 2:10 says, "For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Then James goes on to stick showing favoritism right up there with adultery and murder. And who among us has never shown favoritism? And Paul says, in Galatians I believe, that the whole world is a prisoner of sin. And as you know Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. It is only by the grace of God that ANY of us get to go to heaven. So just "being a good person" isn't going to cut it for anyone.


I totally agree... :): :clap :):

[blessanna]

May I suggest you read Romans many of your questions will be answered there.

If you look at man in general there has always been a desire or need to worship something. Look at how many gods have been created. Nature speaks of a creator but most people choose to ignore.

The truth is before knowing Jesus we are corruptable. We have sinful hearts. We lust after the things of the flesh. No matter how good are intentions might be.

Do you know that God hates pride. Pride is what keeps many from accepting Jesus. It will be the sin that keeps many from God. Because Pride says "I am a good person." Pride boasts and says "I deserve the best because I am the best." Pride has no room for Jesus because to accept Jesus one needs to admit they need saving.

Basically, a person in this state is saying they can stand before God and be judged based on what is in their heart and action. They don't need Christ. They can stand on their own. Therefore, God will judge them on their own. The problem is that no one can keep the law. You either keep the whole law or not at all. There is no weighing the good with the bad. If you have broken one commandment you have broken them all. By not accepting Christ and not following after God a person has broken the greatest commandment given - to love God with all their heart, mind, soul and being. To put God above all things. Denying Jesus will turn out to be the most costliest decision they ever made.

Woe to those who know the truth, have heard the truth but still deny the truth.


Romans 3: 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[Drpepper687]

So, lets say a person came to christ, but they can be the worst person on the planet?
Please forgive me for I have killed several people? Theres always a fine line isnt there?

Different question: Thou shall not kill. So what clears soldiers or people defending themselves?

[Becky]

Thou shall not kill is murder, not defending you or your country. God even sanctioned the Nation of Israel to kill the Caananites.

There are only two kinds of people: Sinners and Saved Sinners. Just because you are saved doesn not mean you stop sinning. But your walk with God helps you not sin as much and you are forgiven when you turn away from that sin.

Does this help? :):

[Drpepper687]

Even if you murdered someone despite being saved, i dunno, thats complicated. But yes clearing the defense of your country part works for me.

[Average Joey]

Even if you murdered someone despite being saved, i dunno, thats complicated. But yes clearing the defense of your country part works for me.


I hope you read my post again my friend. :):

The difference between the saved and the unsaved is that the unsaved loves sin.The Christian hates sin and therefore does not want to sin anymore.We fail all of the time.Even in grotesque ways.But the biggest thing is we have a saviour on the throne in Heaven.When we are unfaithful.He is faithful.He loved us so much that he laid his life down for us.


Now back to cursed mankind.As Jesus said:The two most important laws are Love the Lord your God with all your soul,heart,and mind.Love your neighbor as yourself.Do you realize that when you break any of the other laws you break these as well.When you kill it shows you hate your neighbor and hate God.When you commit idolatry.It shows you hate God.Idolatry is when you put something before Him.Scripture also shows that the sin he hates the most is idolatry not murder.Read Ezekial.I pray the Lord blesses you with the Truth. ;):

[Lost&Found]

Ok I would like to put in Rom. 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. You have paid the price you died. The wages of sin are death. Also John 5:28-30 may help.

[TRUTHSEEKER815]

Hell is two things, then 2 more:

1. A state of Separation from God...for Eternity
2. A State of suffering permanently for ....eternity

3. A state of loneliness- because in Hell people are separated one from another
4. A place of memories – because people who are there will have eternity to think about those moments, when they had the opportunity to make a different choice, and still refused to .

As far as its location, as others will state, Hell in the O.T. is more of a temporary Hell [which may have been at the core of the Earth – but this is conjecture]. The permanent one is the one that was created originally for the Devil and his fallen God-rejecting angels – called demons.

After the un-repentent humans have been judged for their sins at what is known as the Judgement of the Bema Seat, then they will join the Devil in his permanent Hell, which is also the lake of fire. (at least, that is my understanding of this).


Some of this can be found in the book by Hal Lindsey “Satan is alive and well on planet Earth”


Seeker
i agree with all but what you said about the Bema Seat judgement-that judgement is for believers only by Jesus and it is a judgement of our works only,our sin was taken care of when we accepted Jesus as our saviour.Believers will not be judged for sin after death.ALL non-believers WILL be judged for their sins at the Great White Throne Judgement by God.

[pilgrimian]

i agree with all but what you said about the Bema Seat judgement-that judgement is for believers only by Jesus and it is a judgement of our works only,our sin was taken care of when we accepted Jesus as our saviour.Believers will not be judged for sin after death.ALL non-believers WILL be judged for their sins at the Great White Throne Judgement by God.

Quite right, Truthseeker!

If that was the Bema Judgment then we, as Believers, would have missed the Messianic Kingdom (verse 7 of Revelation 20)! Oy vey! That's one millennium I don't want to miss!!!

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, we see after the Messianic Kingdom that Satan will be loosed for a short while...there will be a final invasion of Israel (that will fail, of course)...then there is the Great White Throne Judgment for those who thought they were justified without the redemption of Christ on the cross...then there is the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. All of this happens after the Messianic/Millennial Kingdom but before the Eternal Order.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[EXO153]

True, and yet I disagree about eschatology. The Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view is actually no meager denominational issue. These were decided by God long before there was ever Methodist or Baptist, Arminian, or Calivinist. The Millennial Reign was decided by God long before Augustine ever allegorized what it meant.

To new Believers the Gospel should come first...but eschatology is Scripture. To be a student of the Bible is to be interested in eschatology, because so much of the Word deals with it. It isn't merely Revelation...large portions of the Old Testament must be understood to rightly comprehend how events will unfold/are unfolding.

We cannot discount eschatology. Yes, some people spend much time studying it instead of other issues. However, the Lord has told us that those who look forward to His appearing will receive a special crown. To accurately understand when His appearing will come one must be a student of His Word.



Exo153,

Actually God is present in Hell. He's omnipresent. The fact of the matter is that those in Hell will not see His face...and therefore, will be unable to have a relationship with Him (Jeremiah 32:31; 33:5; Micah 3:4; 1 Peter 3:12; Revelation 20:11) Contrast these verse with the following (which speaks of Believers)...



Godspeed,
Matthew


He will be absent from their hearts. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I still say hell is the absence of God.

[Becky]

Or you could say you are seperated from God when you are in the Lake of Fire.

[Average Joey]

He will be absent from their hearts. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I still say hell is the absence of God.


I have also said this before but we have to consider God`s omnipresense(is that the right word?).Hell is God`s wrath.Not total seperation from him.

Hell : geenna {gheh'-en-nah}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:657,113 of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011
Part of Speech
n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Do I believe it is a literal fire?I don`t know.However I do think it is worse then any of our words can describe.Maybe hell fire is used because in no words could anybody describe God`s wrath.Fire is more fitting because it is what all mankind is scared of most.Maybe those who are lost would prefer fire compared to what they really get.



Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?