"True Conversion"...?

[mochamom]

Recently I listened to a sermon by Ray Comfort, think it was called true or false...Anyway, I thought it was very good. Very thought provoking. After hearing it, I visited the "Way of the Master" website that he is involved with.
It is the position of this ministry, that those who fall away from the Christian faith, were not truly converted in the first place. That something was missing. That they weren't truly submitted and obedient to the Lord. That if there was no spiritual fruit to be seen in a person's life, then there was no saving knowledge of the Lord.

Much scripture was used, and I think that he could be right on. It is just a little scary if it's true. My walk has been a struggle lately. I struggle to obey, and quite often, don't know the Lord's will. I try so hard to do what is right, to make decisions based on the Bible. But I get so confused. Sometimes I can see things 2 ways, and frankly it is really bothering me. I have started seeing a counselor to help me put all my thoughts in order. I read the Bible, and I pray, I try to ask forgiveness whenever something comes up. But sometimes, I don't even know if something is a sin or not. I have been a Christian, made a decision for the Lord, when I was 9. I knew I was a sinner who did wrong things, and wanted to not do them.

I ran away from the Lord as a teen, and came back to the Lord before my dd was born. I knew there had to be some foundation in her life, and what that foundation truly was-Jesus.

I grew up in a Nazarene church, but they let me down badly when I needed them, and they didn't believe in once saved always saved, which I did, after much study. I started attending a Baptist church, but felt like there were too many rules. I could never measure up. I attended a Foursquare church, but they started to water down the gospel to get people in the door. It was too big, and did not satisfy me spiritually. I don't want to go to a church with all kinds of rituals and traditions. I don't want to go to a church who winks at sin. Is there no happy medium?

Anyway, I am just so confused right now. I don't know what to think. I don't even know if I am saved...I know no one can tell me yes or no to that, but I could use a little godly input right now. Cause some days I just want to crawl under the bed and not come out.




*hope this makes sense, I tried to get my thoughts in order.

[cameron222]

Man confuses the issue but God makes it simple. Read and re-read John 3:16 until it sinks in.

If you believe in the son, then you can say with all confidence that you are saved.

AND......once you are saved, you may backslide and even turn away, but your salvation will stick to you like super glue.

Once you are born again, you cannot be "un-born."

[Lonewolf7]

It is the position of this ministry, that those who fall away from the Christian faith, were not truly converted in the first place. That something was missing. That they weren't truly submitted and obedient to the Lord. That if there was no spiritual fruit to be seen in a person's life, then there was no saving knowledge of the Lord.


Anyway, I am just so confused right now. I don't know what to think. I don't even know if I am saved...I know no one can tell me yes or no to that, but I could use a little godly input right now. Cause some days I just want to crawl under the bed and not come out.




*hope this makes sense, I tried to get my thoughts in order.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?

1 John 4:13
We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

Romans 8:9
…. if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ

Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"


John 3:3 and Titus 3:5 will explain it to you ......clearly.

[seeker42]

Man confuses the issue but God makes it simple. Read and re-read John 3:16 until it sinks in.

If you believe in the son, then you can say with all confidence that you are saved.

AND......once you are saved, you may backslide and even turn away, but your salvation will stick to you like super glue.

Once you are born again, you cannot be "un-born."



:thumb :thumb :thumb Christians do not loose their salvation, once they have it. If they did it would not be "Eternal" life. "Eternal life" is not something which can be extended to someone temporarily...


Although lifestyle choices do not 100% indicate where a person is at, the one characteristic that seems to be true, is that a person can either be a happy pagan (& foolish) [until they die and are called to account to God], or they can be a Joyous Christian who is seeking to serve the Lord. But is is impossible on a long term basis to be a Christian who is not following God, and yet being in that state Without the conviction of the Holy Spirit...in the life of that person.

So if a person is not following God, but is a Christian, that situation will eventually turn itself around. As it becomes less fashionable to be a Christian, and as the price becomes higher in just about every way, the clarity of who is a Christian and who is not will become clear.

IF you are a Christian (which you seemed to be), you can rest in the fact of your salvation, and thank God for that. Having said that, it is each of our jobs to continue to attempt to grow and mature in Him and to prepare our hearts for the times we are in, and which are likely to be harder as time goes on.

Why is this not discouraging ?

Because as things become more difficult, God will give us His Strength and His Peace, if we stay in his Word.


Seeker
:):

[holyspiritvesse]

Have you come to the point where you know w/o a doubt if you died you will go to heaven, w/o a doubt?

And if GOd asks why he should let you in heaven, what will be your response?

Bottom line, have you truly acknowledged Jesus as Lord and Savior, trusting His payment to save you, without reservation?

If you have received His gift of Eternal Life, committed your life completely to HIm, then you are sealed forever.

Nothing you do will take your salvation away. No SIn. THe more you learn the Word, the more you will know the leading of the Holy Spirit.

God's will is to love and obey Him. Grow in knowledge and wisdom.

What finally got me into true faith, BTW, was truly understanding Ephesians 2:8,9.

[LanceVB]

Have you come to the point where you know w/o a doubt if you died you will go to heaven, w/o a doubt?

And if GOd asks why he should let you in heaven, what will be your response?

Bottom line, have you truly acknowledged Jesus as Lord and Savior, trusting His payment to save you, without reservation?

If you have received His gift of Eternal Life, committed your life completely to HIm, then you are sealed forever.

Dear mochamom,

The above comment to me is confusing. If you believed in Jesus Christ as your personal Savior then you are saved. This is the only thing one has to do to be saved. It doesn't matter how we feel. Why? because it is the veracity of the Word of God, not whether or not we are assured that we are going to heaven. What I am saying is this: believe in Christ and you are saved whether you feel saved is not the issue. The issue is that God saved you.

Now when a person starts to grow in grace, he then may get enough doctrine in his soul to realize that he is saved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
This may take days, it may take years. But please be assured, you are saved if you just believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. OK?

BTW once you have believed in Christ, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, whether you committed your life completely to Him or not.


Nothing you do will take your salvation away. No SIn. THe more you learn the Word, the more you will know the leading of the Holy Spirit.

God's will is to love and obey Him. Grow in knowledge and wisdom.

What finally got me into true faith, BTW, was truly understanding Ephesians 2:8,9.

This last part is a good


May you have peace in your soul, knowing that you will go to heaven.

Lance

[cameron222]

Where in the Bible does it say God will ask us why we should be let into heaven? :confused

A person can KNOW thay are saved and KNOW they are going to heaven when they die because of their belief in and acceptance of God's son.

I wish preachers and others would not play with people's emotions and make them doubt their salvation. Salvation is supposed to be about joy and liberation, not confusion and doubt.

[antsinmypants]

Mochamom, when I was younger (8-16) people would really set me off into tail-spins over this issue because I was 4 years old when I found Y'shua and accepted Him as my Saviour!

Because a) My life hadn't changed that much (Hello!! Raised in a christian home!!! VERY YOUNG?!)
b) I couldn't identify the day/hour I was saved...(how asinine!)
c) Couldn't say that I had a conversion where I realised how awful I had lived, and now things were better (I was 4! :P:)
d) I wasn't baptised until I was old enough to feel comfortable about being in a pool over my head to be dunked...

Very asinine things.

I KNEW in my soul I was going to heaven, and I KNEW that I was redeemed. :evil was using other believers to keep me in a tailspin (Literally a foot nailed to the floor!!) so I couldn't be out doing what it was YHVH wanted me to do, reach those around me.

If one is kept unsure of their faith, they can't be out making disciples-- now, can they?

[jegs2]

Matthew 7
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I think that the above passage clearly points out that those who do not know Jesus never knew Jesus. Notice it does not say, "I once knew you, but then..."
And then there is the following:
John 10
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
The above passage is sufficient unto itself. Salvation is eternal. Those who die unsaved were never saved, for one cannot be "un-saved."

[IbeleiveinJesus]

I once had someone tell me that "true" Christians never sin, and are never again tempted... :rolleyes

I beleive when God says...

Matthew 7:7 - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 7:8 - For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

He is serious.. if we truly seek him, he is there for us... we may sin, be in error about countless things, rebel, etc.. but God knows our heart, and our thoughts, and loves us.. If we truly go to him, he'll embrace us, remember in the story of the Prodigal son, the Father ran to his returning child and embraced him without question.. all he needed to do was show up...

We may rebel or doubt, but we are always his...

I don't know your heart, only God does, but I've read some of your posts.. and if you aren't a true seeker, you deserve an Oscar...

I hope this helps...

-Ted

[Mailman Dan]

Glad you listened to it too. Many people here have.

One of the key points Ray makes is, EVERY believer can FALL into sin, but does not make sin part of his regular life style. Big difference between "Fall" and "Dive into."

The example was, "Bill is a great guy since he became a believer, but he still beats up his wife." Clear false convert. The lifestyle never changed to fit the walk.

However, a believer may (and will) sin, but it does not remain part of his life style.

Dan~~~>has the DVD of that lesson too :thumb

[LanceVB]

Where in the Bible does it say God will ask us why we should be let into heaven? :confused

I totally agree, to a Christian, who has been taught by the Holy Spirit that when you believed on the Son, Jesus Christ, you are saved. It doesn't come any clearer then that.

A person can KNOW thay are saved and KNOW they are going to heaven when they die because of their belief in and acceptance of God's son.

:fear I wish preachers and others would not play with people's emotions and make them doubt their salvation. Salvation is supposed to be about joy and liberation, not confusion and doubt.

I agree again, good solid Pastor Teacher's will not do this.:thumb

Lance

[Mailman Dan]

It's bibical to question your salvation. Far better now than on the day of judgement. Make your calling and election sure.

In fact, you should get others to examine their own faith, to see if they are in the walk. Our co-pastor did this recently with a couple that came in for marriage council. After a few hours, they both agreed neither one of them ever gave their heart to Jesus, nor understood what sin was in the first place. It changed them forever.

Jesus warned repeatedly of false converts in the church. (sheep and goats, good fish and the bad, foolish virgins and the wise, wheat among tears) He also said by their fruit you will know them.

http://www.thewayofthemaster.com/wotm_flash.html

Take a listen. It's worth taking a close look at your own personal walk once in awhile.

Dan~~~>knows a lot of people this helped bring to the Lord :thumb

[tractsforchrist]

~_~ it makes me depressed to even listen. I have had my boyfriend listen for me......

It depresses me to no end. You can never know.

[Mailman Dan]

You can never know

Not true. I have faith and joy in belief, reguardless of what bad things happen in my life. I have joy and peace, never ending, because I know the blood of Christ will save me from the wrath to come.

True and false conversion has to do with the Christian walk, and does come directly from scripture. It should not depress you in the least, but encourage you to walk as best you can. God knows your heart, and so do you. If you have given everything to God, and do your best to please only Him, you have no worries in this world, other than leading others to salvation.

Dan~~~>thinks you should listen to Kirk's "Soundly Saved" first.

[MailmanGuy]

http://www.salvationbygrace.com/uc/sub/messages/20040411_Communion.mp3

This was the message given for this past Easter, at Grace Christian Assembly.

You said...
I don't want to go to a church with all kinds of rituals and traditions. I don't want to go to a church who winks at sin. Is there no happy medium?

Most Christian churches today are legalistic in their teachings, including some that are mentioned here. Enjoy the broadcast.

Guy

[tractsforchrist]

Mailman Dan but there are conflicting views on the postition. Again we can't be sure that the interpretation by Ray Comfort is correct either. We can't be sure that others interpretations are correct.

[Mailman Dan]

What interpretation? The false conversions are all thought scripture, Ray just reads them. His entire message is to take a close look at your heart, to make sure you are in the walk.


Dan~~~>hasn't ever heard anything against the message

[mochamom]

Okay.

Tried to get this down to something concise and orderly. (no promises, but I will try)

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Okay, that is pretty clear. Belief in Jesus is the key, and God loves us.


What is belief in Jesus?


I believe, that it is believing He is who He said He was. I believe it is believing His words, His teachings, and His commands.

When Jesus was here, He gave two commandments. Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Okay. So if I believe in Jesus, and He gives me a commandment, I am to do it. To not just be a hearer of the word, but a doer.

Jesus also said, Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Jesus made it clear that we are to obey.



What if we disobey, then what happens? I mean, it says right there that we are to obey. What if I don't, what if I sin. What if I sin knowing it's wrong.


When Jesus says to obey His commands, is he talking about the things we read in the Bible? Or stuff that we think He is telling us...

I thought that when Jesus came, we were free from the law. But, this feels like law to me.... I want peace and assurance that I am saved. But I want that to be TRUE.

I feel like I don't know how to live... :cry

[Mailman Dan]

We know how to live. Jesus said, If you love Me, keep my commandments. That should be what a believer tries to do, 100% of the time.

Being human, however, means we will make mistakes, just as Ray pointed out in the message. A believer can and does fall, but a true convert does not continue to live a lifestyle that they know offends God. A true believer will confess to God, and turn back. A false convert, not only continues to live a lifestyle they know offends God, they also don't really understand what sin is. They believe that sin isn't that bad, so giving in to a sinful lifestyle is not "that bad" in their mind. Not understanding this is offencive to God. they will not repent and change.

Saddly, there are too many examples in our world. How can someone who is supposed to be dead to sin, beat up their wife on Saturday and be in church on Sunday? Or how could a true convert go on a killing spree in a moment of rage, even just once?


Dan~~~>thnks you should also hear Kirk's Soundly Saved message too :thumb

[mochamom]

Dan~~~>thnks you should also hear Kirk's Soundly Saved message too :thumb

Okay. mochamom will go listen to it right now. :laugh

[Mailman Dan]

Dan should probably stop taking in third person, because then everyone else does. :D:


Dan~~~>making copies of Kirks audio right now

[tractsforchrist]

Mailman Dan. I am not argueing that it is not in the bible. But it can be interpreted differently. As can all scripture. Discernment is key yes but there are still disagreements.

Ray Comfort is not God.

[steve63]

It's bibical to question your salvation. Far better now than on the day of judgement. Make your calling and election sure.

Amen. I think there is too much easy-believism being taught and practiced today. True faith is more than simply agreeing to the truth of John 3:16. Jesus and the apostles were not afraid of challenging people to examine themselves to see if their faith was genuine.

See 2 Cor 13:5, James 2:14, Heb 4:1, Heb 10:26, 1 John 3:6-10, Matt 10:22, Gal 5:19-21.

I'm not saying we can't have assurance. We can. But it comes from more than mere intellectual assent to the facts of the gospel. If we are saved, we are a new creature. The evidence of this is not perfection, but a heart that loves God and hates sin. The first epistle of John is full of "tests" that we can apply to discern the true state of our own hearts. I'm afraid many professing christians have been lulled into a false security based on the fact that they have made some "decision" in the past, yet there life bears no fruit. Jesus said 'you will know them by their fruit'.

Far better to struggle (and hopefully overcome) doubt now, than to wake up on the day of judgement and find ourselves in the company of those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23.

[MailmanGuy]

What if we disobey, then what happens? I mean, it says right there that we are to obey. What if I don't, what if I sin. What if I sin knowing it's wrong.


When Jesus says to obey His commands, is he talking about the things we read in the Bible? Or stuff that we think He is telling us...

I thought that when Jesus came, we were free from the law. But, this feels like law to me.... I want peace and assurance that I am saved.

When Jesus said these things...was the “new covenant” in place yet? Had Christ died yet? Did the “Time of the Gentiles” begin yet? Was Jesus speaking to the “church”?

The answer is no.

When Jesus spoke these things, Israel was still under the Law. Notice the statement... Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

...it’s a conditional statement. We can’t do it. Christ could, and did! Look at the last half of the verse. When we die, Christ’s righteousness’ is imputed to us, and we are “perfected forever” (Heb 10:14) keeping all of the Laws perfectly, thereby abiding in His love.

It’s the same thing when Jesus said...
Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
Mat 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Again, this is conditional. Jesus speaking to men living under the Law. Before Grace. “Forgive...or you won’t be forgiven”....the Law doesn’t bend! But after the death and resurrection of Christ, it changes from, “forgive or you won’t be forgiven”...to...”You’ve been forgiven, now forgive”
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Guy

[Mailman Dan]

Ray Comfort is not God.

Um..who said he was? If you don't believe somehthing about the message, please feel free to point out exactly what you feel is in error.



Dan~~~>thought it was biically sound

[Average Joey]

deleted

[Gracef45]

We are given a very clear description of salvation in Romans 10:9-10:"That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

It does not mention having one's sins forgiven, asking Jesus into one's heart or being baptized. Salvation is obtained by believing in one's heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead. The heart is symbolic of having true faith as the basis for salvation and not just empty verbal expression. We must confess our sin in the admission that we need a savior, but the confession of sins does not fulfill the requirement for salvation. We must confess faith in the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Likewise, Romans 5:10 says that we are saved by His life. This means that salvation is obtained by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
(above is copied from: www.biblelife.org)

Thank you Bondservant for posting that site...I have been studying from that site all morning and found the answers I was looking for, as I had some similar questions that mochmamom was asking.

Our salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. I know of some alcoholics and smokers that were delivered of their addictions at the time of their salvation; I know of others that are saved, that were not delivered of their addictions at the time of their belief in Jesus as their Savior. God looks at the heart and man looks at outward appearances. Praise God!!!

[Jacob]

...It is the position of this ministry, that those who fall away from the Christian faith, were not truly converted in the first place. That something was missing. That they weren't truly submitted and obedient to the Lord. That if there was no spiritual fruit to be seen in a person's life, then there was no saving knowledge of the Lord.

This is correct. This is based on 1 John 2:19 in which John wrote: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."


...It is just a little scary if it's true. My walk has been a struggle lately. I struggle to obey, and quite often, don't know the Lord's will. I try so hard to do what is right, to make decisions based on the Bible. But I get so confused....

The people whom John is talking about in the above verse are those who identified with Christianity, but decided that they did not want to be a part of it any longer, i.e., they denied their faith, and did not repent. There is a difference between struggling to do what God wants, having failures, and turning back to God again, as opposed to deliberately turning away from a faith that you onced professed and not returning to it again.

I ran away from the Lord as a teen, and came back to the Lord before my dd was born. I knew there had to be some foundation in her life, and what that foundation truly was-Jesus.

Read the parable of the Prodigal son.


Anyway, I am just so confused right now. I don't know what to think. I don't even know if I am saved...I know no one can tell me yes or no to that, but I could use a little godly input right now. Cause some days I just want to crawl under the bed and not come out.

The Bible says "he who has the Son of God has eternal life. He who does not have the Son does not have the Life." (1 John 5). John also says: "To all who receive Him, to those who believe on His name, He will give them the right to become children of God." (John 1:12).

If there was a time that you recognized your need to have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior for forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and you called upon His name and invited Him to come into your life as your Lord & Savior - then the Bible says that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

As you also noted, once we are saved, we cannot lose it (John 10:28-30).

[holyspiritvesse]

Since when do we not receive emails when there are new posts to a thread we wrote on?

I missed all this. But I THINK I saw a while back that lance said I was saved all those years I said I believed in Jesus, and that surrendering to Him and living for Him was not necessary at the time of actual salvation?/?

I TELL you ALLL! I was NOT saved all those years I thought I was a Christian becuase I believed CHrist had died for my sins and that He was God's son, etc.

The lightbulb came on when I realized I was still adding my hope to get in Heaven because I was a semi good person and because I said I believed. I learned through Ephesians 2:8,9 that I had not found saving faith yet.

Boy, when I found it - or it found me- WOW! Daybreak! Joy! Peace beyond understanding! An opening up of the Word of God in understanding the Scriptures; the power and desire to stay away from drugs, cause I now saw sin the way God saw it and I had no need or desire of it.

So was I saved when I first prayed to receive Christ and was first baptized and all those years that people asked if I was a CHristian I said "Hell yeah!'.

No way...

[Selah]

Man confuses the issue but God makes it simple. Read and re-read John 3:16 until it sinks in.

If you believe in the son, then you can say with all confidence that you are saved.

AND......once you are saved, you may backslide and even turn away, but your salvation will stick to you like super glue.

Once you are born again, you cannot be "un-born."

Ray Comfort also believes in OSAS; he does not teach against that.

His focus is to help people truly understand and use discernment to examine their hearts against the Word and to be CERTAIN you are saved.

DH has spent many, many, many hours studying Hell's Best Kept Secret, True and False Conversions, WDJD, and eventually even paid and signed up online to take the full-blown University course. It's amazing, and studying from the Greek, he has found every bit of it to be true, and confirmed to him by the Holy Spirit. I would suggest, that if possible, you do the same. You will be blessed by it.

Ray's studies on the use of the Law when witnessing to people are also amazing.

Every week, DH meets with a group of people from church and heads down to UT campus to witness. He has tried the usual, "So, what do you think about Jesus?" approach, and it just doesn't work. Now he uses the law (in almost every case, but with some exceptions: orthodox Jews, and any person beating themselves up over sin with no hope), and it WORKS! He has used it when witnessing to atheists, agnostics, "flaky" Christians (actually false converts), Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, etc, and has had an incredible "success rate" because of people's response when they truly understand the fullness of what sin is and the standard which God is going to hold non-believers up against when they die. The Holy Spirit can truly break strongholds of sin and pride in people's lives with it.

In short, Ray and Kirk have an incredible ministry which tells people to truly examine where they are in the faith. :):

P.S. We have quite a few of the videos, and I thought it might interest you all to know what is on the back regarding endorsements:
Ray Comfort's ministry has been commended by Franklin Graham, Josh McDowell, Dr. D. James Kennedy, Bill Gothard, David Wilkerson, Joni Eareckson Tada, Dr. Jerry Falwell, George Barna and many other Christian leaders.


Also, as someone else was saying, yes you CAN know for certain you are saved:

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perserverance, to perserverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11)






Edit: Incorrect use of a smiley previously! :freaked :tape :redface

[Selah]

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:22-25)

[seachelle76]

mochamom,

The OSAS issue has plagued me as well. I used to be against OSAS but now I'm not so sure. Is there such a thing as false conversion? I don't doubt it. There are plenty of people out there who have never been serious in their claim of salvation. Did I experience it myself back when I was a Christian and then wasn't and now am one again? I'm beginning to look at that period as one of severe back-sliding, but I know that I was saved the first time. I've absolutely no doubt that I was saved then. However, did I lose my salvation? I never outright rejected Christ, I just ignored the topic. It is a hard question to answer. I repented and regardless of the particulars, I am saved now which is what truly counts.

Anyway, I want to encourage you not to let this bother you so much. Holding you up in prayer...

[mochamom]

I just can't thank you enough for all your kind responses and prayers and pms, truly am going to study the scriptures referenced here. I have been reminded not to go just on my feelings, and encouraged in that I did run away for awhile, but turned back to Him. I keep walking toward the Lord. I want the truth.

Selah, you posted But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perserverance, to perserverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. I have virtue, and knowledge and am now working on self-control. Or should say the Holy Spirit is working on my self-control. This verse was very encouraging.



I just hate sin...

Anyway, you all have given me much food for thought.

[chris_h]

Tracts, of course Ray ain't God. However, his stuff is right on. I understand how it could well be disturbing that you could at some point have been a false convert, because I was one twice over.

[NRA4Freedom]

The truth is that is is NOT about what WE do, it is about what God does for us. I heard some good truths recently on the question of who represents us before God. That is, after all, the eternal question that will decide each of our eternal fates according to the Bible.

Just as we go to the polls and vote for our favorite candidate, so too is each and every one of us represented in a spiritual sense. No, I did not vote for Bill Clinton, but he was “appointed” to represent us through election…so for better or worse, he still represented each and every one of us(even if we voted for him, against him, or didn’t vote at all) to the world during his time in office. So too it was with Adam. I don’t know about you, but I certainly never voted for Adam in the Garden of Eden to represent me either, but God appointed him to represent each of us, and all mankind. And just like the “Red button” episode of Ren and Stimpy, where there is a big pretty red button that is NOT to be pushed under any circumstance, each and every one of us would indeed, eventually, “push the shiny red button” just to see what will happen…just like Stimpy did, even though he tried and tried and tried as hard as he could not to do it. And that’s what Adam did also. Told not to eat of a certain trees fruit, he willingly disobeyed God and did just that. The reason for this can be exampled in our children. We don’t have to teach children to lie or disobey, they just do it. They do it because it is their nature to do it. Some children are certainly better behaved than others, but eventually, all of them will do something which is exactly what they have been told not to do. Tell them not to jump on the bed, they will eventually do just that. In fact, catch them jumping on the bed, tell them not to, and turn your back, and many will do it again right then and there. Catch them doing something they are not supposed to be doing, and as soon as they recognize that there is punishment involved, they will more often than not tell a lie if possible to keep from being punished. Why do they do this, because they are evil? No, it is simply because it is their nature to disobey. We are all born the same, with the same spiritual nature to disobey. Just as Adam sinned against God by disobeying, we are all born with the same nature to disobey authority. The Bible reveals that we are born this way because we are all born sinners. We have the spiritual sin nature to sin, and our guilt is not only in and of ourselves, but is passed down to us through Adam.

Now, contrary to some popular religious beliefs, we are not actually sinners before a just and righteous God in the spiritual sense of the word because we happen to sin on occasion, even though we do, but it is because we are simply born that way...a sinner, with the spiritual nature of a sinner. And while we can and do sin, even IF we were able to never sin ourselves, which is impossible, we would still be sinners in the eyes of God because of our inborn spiritual sin nature. The Bible also reveals that through one man, Adam, our “representative”, all mankind is doomed to an eternal Hell through sin. But is that really fair? Well, on the surface it may seem unlikely to our minds, because after all, we certainly never voted. But when we consider that God Himself appointed Adam to represent us all, and we consider that we too, eventually, would all “push the shiny red button” just like Stimpy did, because that is our inborn nature to sin, then we have to admit that yes, it is a fair and just representation of us all. Adam sinned, and we too would have sinned against God in one way or another. So, when we are born, we are all born the same way…a sinner.

So what can be done about all this? After all, all religions on earth agree that we must either be perfect, or at least, our good deeds must outweigh our bad deeds, if we are to enter whatever their form of Heaven there is. But is this what the Bible reveals to us? Well, yes and no. Because the Bible reveals that yes, we must be perfect to enter Gods realm after physical death, but no, we can never be, or become, perfect, in and of ourselves. There is no action or deed that we can do that will ever begin to make up for our sin and disobedience before God. And even if there was, the sin nature we are all born with still keeps us from being perfect. So in and of ourselves we are doomed, according to scripture. But God had a plan, a plan that would satisfy both problems at the same time. And is has to do with who actually represents us. For God offers mankind another representative, Jesus Christ. And just as through one man, Adam, sin became our master, so too through one man, Jesus Christ, are we no longer bound by the yoke of sin to an eternal demise. When God sent Jesus to the world, He sent Him here for the purpose of redeeming us to Himself. Jesus, who knew no sin and was perfect, actually had to became sin for us on the Cross, die, and pay the penalty for us in our place. In order to accomplish this, Jesus had to totally overcome the sin problem. And according to the Bible, the sin problem was once and for all dealt with on the Cross, where the sin debt of every person’s sin, past, present, and future, was nailed to the Cross with Him and was paid for in full by His blood. No, His sacrifice doesn’t make us perfect in and of ourselves. We still can and do sin. But those sins are already paid for, forgiven and forgotten by God, in and of Christ, who paid the price for them in our stead. And as for the sin nature we are born with, God reveals though scripture that “those who are in Christ Jesus are a new creature”. They are “born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible”. We were born physically of the seed of Adam…corruptible seed doomed for eternity, but in and through the conversion process of the Cross, we are reborn, spiritually speaking, by God, of the seed of Jesus Christ, incorruptible. Now, does that makes us good enough, or perfect, in the eyes of God? No, not in and of ourselves it doesn’t. For we can never be “good enough” to pay the price for our own sin, let alone attain the perfection necessary to enter into Heaven. So why does the process of salvation in and through Jesus Christ gain believers an eternity with God rather than one of punishment for sin? It is because the wages of sin, which is eternal death, is paid for…or credited to our account as it were…by the Grace of God(which IS Jesus Christ) though faith. And since the Bible reveals that even the faith itself that is necessary for us TO believe, and receive, what Christ did for us and in our place is a gift from God Himself, “and not of ourselves lest any man boast”, it becomes the valid, and only avenue, by which man may be reconciled unto God. So it is by Grace, through faith, that Jesus Christ becomes He who is our new representative before God. When God looks upon us pre conversion, He sees a filthy sinner, truly deserving of His wrath and displeasure…yet when He looks upon us post conversion, He sees Jesus Christ…our new representative…and sees perfection. In the end, it isn’t about how good you try to be, or how much money or time you give to good works, or how sorry you are for being the sinner you are, it is all about who represents you before God.

So, who represents you?



Recently I listened to a sermon by Ray Comfort, think it was called true or false...Anyway, I thought it was very good. Very thought provoking. After hearing it, I visited the "Way of the Master" website that he is involved with.
It is the position of this ministry, that those who fall away from the Christian faith, were not truly converted in the first place. That something was missing. That they weren't truly submitted and obedient to the Lord. That if there was no spiritual fruit to be seen in a person's life, then there was no saving knowledge of the Lord.

Much scripture was used, and I think that he could be right on. It is just a little scary if it's true. My walk has been a struggle lately. I struggle to obey, and quite often, don't know the Lord's will. I try so hard to do what is right, to make decisions based on the Bible. But I get so confused. Sometimes I can see things 2 ways, and frankly it is really bothering me. I have started seeing a counselor to help me put all my thoughts in order. I read the Bible, and I pray, I try to ask forgiveness whenever something comes up. But sometimes, I don't even know if something is a sin or not. I have been a Christian, made a decision for the Lord, when I was 9. I knew I was a sinner who did wrong things, and wanted to not do them.

I ran away from the Lord as a teen, and came back to the Lord before my dd was born. I knew there had to be some foundation in her life, and what that foundation truly was-Jesus.

I grew up in a Nazarene church, but they let me down badly when I needed them, and they didn't believe in once saved always saved, which I did, after much study. I started attending a Baptist church, but felt like there were too many rules. I could never measure up. I attended a Foursquare church, but they started to water down the gospel to get people in the door. It was too big, and did not satisfy me spiritually. I don't want to go to a church with all kinds of rituals and traditions. I don't want to go to a church who winks at sin. Is there no happy medium?

Anyway, I am just so confused right now. I don't know what to think. I don't even know if I am saved...I know no one can tell me yes or no to that, but I could use a little godly input right now. Cause some days I just want to crawl under the bed and not come out.




*hope this makes sense, I tried to get my thoughts in order.

[blessanna]

There needs to be true repentence for salvation to take place. Repentence is the changing of one's mind. Also, what one believes will effect their attitude and their heart. I see the issue is that many profess faith or a belief but do not possess it in their heart. We can see it in their actions.

How many religious people do you know that profess belief in Christ but live contrary to that belief? I think this is what James means we we say we believe and he says so what even the demons believe and tremble.

Also, someone needs to believe in Jesus' totally. There are many that believe in a Jesus that does not exist. For example, the JWs believe in Jesus but they don't believe in His diety. They don't believe that His death was sufficient for their sins. They believe He is the Son of God but equal to the devil. That Jesus was created by God not God in the flesh. They believe in a false Jesus. One that does not exist.

I believe in order to understand who Jesus is we have to understand that we are sinners. If a person cannot see that they are in need of a Savior they can't believe in Jesus. They may believe in the person of Jesus but not Jesus the Savior. Why should they, they don't need Him. In order for repentence to take place one must understand the state that they are in that they are lost and in sin. That sin separates us from God and only Jesus can reconcile us.

To me this is the message that gets lost when preaching to unbelievers or just telling someone about the sinners prayers. I believe that their are many who say the sinners prayer or follow a prayer of a believer just to get in without any idea what they are doing. I will tell you about my own conversion.

I grew up in the church. I knew who Jesus was and every Sunday was given the chance to be baptize and accept Jesus as Lord. I put it off and put it off. Unit college and I decided church wasn't for me. Then someone presented Jesus in a way I never heard before. They explained that I could not have a relationship with the Father without the Son. I was offended by what she said to me because this is not what I believed. But I listened and finally followed her prayer in leading me to Christ.'

Immediately, I went to God and asked why do I need Jesus. It makes no sense. I had a relationship to the Son and saw no need to go to Jesus. I knew He died on the cross for my sins but didn't see the need to acknowledge that.

Of course I wondered if I was in the right church to go to heaven. If I believed the right rules. How could I be good? Then I was shown how I was a sinner through the scriptures. I finally understood my need for a Savior and had a desire to leave behind my old life and follow Christ. So that night I fell on my knees and confessed my sins and repented and asked Jesus to come into my life and to save me.

I didn't get baptized, I didn't go to church, and I didn't really read the bible but with time God began to change me and my heart. I began to work out my salvation. Then I did those things in which Jesus commanded and the more I followed Him the more my life changed for the better. I know for me salvation came at the point I confessed my sins, repented and called upon Jesus. I may have not shown works of faith right away but God worked on me.

I remember hearing a sermon many years ago and the preacher said that in Hebrews 12 if you were a child of God's, a true son He would discipline you. If you were sinning and there was no consequence for your sin or God was not dealing with you then you were an illegitimate child and not of God. If there is no conviction then you have to ask yourself are you in Christ and He in you.

[evjr]

Hi,

I think the teaching from the ministries of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron are right on. May I encourage you to view their program The Way of the Master, read their book by the same title, and apply their principles and methods to your evangelistic efforts. Also, using their tracks and using tracks in general is a great way to reach the lost. I know of a friend in my Sunday School class who turned to the Lord after picking up a track that had been dropped in an elevator.

May God bless you all.