Did Satan rebel before or after humanity was created?

[Joseph Eley]

And why did God not punish him and those who followed him straight away?

I know their fate is tied in with us humans, Im just not sure why.

[antsinmypants]

I would say Before humanity

Reason being: he was in the garden tempting both Adam and Eve.

[Beth]

'And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.' Gen 1-31

I'd have to conclude that 'every thing' that God had made included the angels, and if He saw and thought every thing that He had made up to the end of that sixth day, was 'very good', that would then indicate that Lucifer had not yet fallen.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by Beth
'And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.' Gen 1-31

I'd have to conclude that 'every thing' that God had made included the angels, and if He saw and thought every thing that He had made up to the end of that sixth day, was 'very good', that would then indicate that Lucifer had not yet fallen.

Beth,

That's in the context of the Six Days of Creation. That isn't to say that God hadn't created anything prior to that. See in the 2 Peter passage below...the Heavens existed long ago.

Genesis 1:

1In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.


2 Peter 3:

4They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." 5For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


Ezekiel 28:

11Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.


Revelation 12:

7Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


Isaiah 14:

12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13For you have said in your heart:
"I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Satan fell before man was created...before God renewed the earth. Satan was in Eden...but Eden at that time was not the same on which Adam and Eve were in. Their Garden of Eden came afterwards, and was not a rock garden as pictured in the Ezekiel passage.

From the 2 Peter passage we can see that there was a flood before the Flood of Noah's day. We see that Peter refers to this in chapter 3, having referred to the Flood of Noah's day in chapter 2. See here:

2 Peter 2:

5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Then God told made a covenant with Noah and said that this would never happen again (Genesis 9:11-15). From the 2 Peter 2:5 passage we can see that it had happened once before.

Joseph,

As for why God didn't punish them straight away...well, He did in one sense. Of course, He already knew He would make man...He already knew that Satan would be bad news for us...and that Christ would need to come as our Redeemer. It one of those things that has to do with finite minds trying to understand the infinite. Ask Him when we get there. I always say that...but know that I'll be flat on my face, throwing down my crown before I could even utter one syllable of a question.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[blitzkreig]

I think the passage you used Pligrimian is even clearer in the NASB...:

2Pe 3:5-7
(5) For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
(6) through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
(7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

You have to read it slowly to catch the cadiance...

Here is a link to a descriptive chart which shows how many (including me) see it...

LINK (http://livingepistle.org/Bible_&_Church_Resources/Larkin_Charts/TheBookOfRevelation/Larkin_30The_Three_Stages_Of_The_Earth-TBOR.gif)

[Joseph Eley]

Thanks for the scriptures everybody. :):

As for why God didn't punish them straight away...well, He did in one sense. Of course, He already knew He would make man...He already knew that Satan would be bad news for us...and that Christ would need to come as our Redeemer. It one of those things that has to do with finite minds trying to understand the infinite. Ask Him when we get there.

I suppose I can wait.

[Slippery]

Concerning the creation of Angels, Augustine put it best in the City of God.

CHAPTER 9 -- WHAT THE SCRIPTURES TEACH US TO BELIEVE CONCERNING THE CREATION OF THE ANGELS.

At present, since I have undertaken to treat of the origin of the holy city, and first of the holy angels, who constitute a large part of this city, and indeed the more blessed part, since they have never been expatriated, I will give myself to the task of explaining, by God's help, and as far as seems suitable, the Scriptures which relate to this point. Where Scripture speaks of the world's creation, it is not plainly said whether or when the angels were created; but if mention of them is made, it is implicitly under the name of "heaven," when it is said, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," or perhaps rather under the name of "light," of which presently. But that they were wholly omitted, I am unable to believe, because it is written that God on the seventh day rested from all His works which He made; and this very book itself begins, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," so that before heaven and earth God seems to have made nothing. Since, therefore, He began with the heavens and the earth -- and the earth itself, as Scripture adds, was at first invisible and formless, light not being as yet made, and darkness covering the face of the deep (that is to say, covering an undefined chaos of earth and sea, for where light is not, darkness must needs be) -- and then when all things, which are recorded to have been completed in six days, were created and arranged, how should the angels be omitted, as if they were not among the works of God, from which on the seventh day He rested? Yet, though the fact that the angels are the work of God is not omitted here, it is indeed not explicitly mentioned; but elsewhere Holy Scripture asserts it in the clearest manner. For in the Hymn of the Three Children in the Furnace it was said, "O all ye works of the Lord bless ye the Lord;" and among these works mentioned afterwards in detail, the angels are named. And in the psalm it is said, "Praise ye the Lord from the heavens, praise Him in the heights. Praise ye Him, all His angels; praise ye Him, all His hosts. Praise ye Him, sun and moon; praise him, all ye stars of light. Praise Him, ye heaven of heavens; and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the Lord; for He commanded, and they were created." Here the angels are most expressly and by divine authority said to have been made by God, for of them among the other heavenly things it is said, "He commanded, and they were created." Who, then, will be bold enough to suggest that the angels were made after the six days' creation? If any one is so foolish, his folly is disposed of by a scripture of like authority, where God says, "When the stars were made, the angels praised me with a loud voice." The angels therefore existed before the stars; and the stars were made the fourth day. Shall we then say that they were made the third day? Far from it; for we know what was made that day. The earth was separated from the water, and each element took its own distinct form, and the earth produced all that grows on it. On the second day, then? Not even on this; for on it the firmament was made between the waters above and beneath, and was called "Heaven," in which firmament the stars were made on the fourth day. There is no question, then, that if the angels are included in the works of God during these six days, they are that light which was called "Day," and whose unity Scripture signalizes by calling that day not the "first day," but "one day." For the second day, the third, and the rest are not other days; but the same "one" day is repeated to complete the number six or seven, so that there should be knowledge both of God's works and of His rest. For when God said, "Let there be light, and there was light," if we are justified in understanding in this light the creation of the angels, then certainly they were created partakers of the eternal light which is the unchangeable Wisdom of God, by which all things were made, and whom we call the only-begotten Son of God; so that they, being illumined by the Light that created them, might themselves become light and be called "Day," in participation of that unchangeable Light and Day which is the Word of God, by whom both themselves and all else were made. "The true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," -- this Light lighteth also every pure angel, that he may be light not in himself, but in God; from whom if an angel turn away, he becomes impure, as are all those who are called unclean spirits, and are no longer light in the Lord, but darkness in themselves, being deprived of the participation of Light eternal. For evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name "evil."

CHAPTER 11 -- WHETHER THE ANGELS THAT FELL PARTOOK OF THE BLESSEDNESS WHICH THE HOLY ANGELS HAVE ALWAYS ENJOYED FROM THE TIME OF THEIR CREATION.

And since these things are so, those spirits whom we call angels were never at any time or in any way darkness, but, as soon as they were made, were made light; yet they were not so created in order that they might exist and live in any way whatever, but were enlightened that they might live wisely and blessedly. Some of them, having turned away from this light, have not won this wise and blessed life, which is certainly eternal, and accompanied with the sure confidence of its eternity; but they have still the life of reason, though darkened with folly, and this they cannot lose even if they would. But who can determine to what extent they were partakers of that wisdom before they fell? And how shall we say that they participated in it equally with those who through it are truly and fully blessed, resting in a true certainty of eternal felicity? For if they had equally participated in this true knowledge, then the evil angels would have remained eternally blessed equally with the good, because they were equally expectant of it. For, though a life be never so long, it cannot be truly called eternal if it is destined to have an end; for it is called life inasmuch as it is lived, but eternal because it has no end. Wherefore, although everything eternal is not therefore blessed (for hell-fire is eternal), yet if no life can be truly and perfectly blessed except it be eternal, the life of these angels was not blessed, for it was doomed to end, and therefore not eternal, whether they knew it or not. In the one case rear, in the other ignorance, prevented them from being blessed. And even if their ignorance was not so great as to breed in them a wholly false expectation, but left them wavering in uncertainty whether their good would be eternal or would some time terminate, this very doubt concerning so grand a destiny was incompatible with the plenitude of blessedness which we believe the holy angels enjoyed. For we do not so narrow and restrict the application of the term "blessedness" as to apply it to God only, though doubtless He is so truly blessed that greater blessedness cannot be; and, in comparison of His blessedness, what is that of the angels, though, according to their capacity, they be perfectly blessed?

[daveleau]

I have been trying to get my mind around the Bible's telling of Creation regarding what science has shown. The only that I have been able to resolve the issue is by the Gap Theory. It is controversial, as are any earth history ideas. But, it has scriptural basis. God created the heaven and the earth in Gen 1:1, yet in 1:2 the earth was void and without form. God has shown us that He does not create things that are not useful. The theory states that there was a period between 1:1 and 1:2. I have read many authors that agree with this theory (Dr. DaHaan, Finis Dake, Pember, Scoffield- all devout Bible believing protestant Christians). Along with this belief is the idea that the reason the earth was devoid and without form because of the fall of Lucifer. It is believed that he reigned on earth. His fall caused the destruction and voiding of the earth. Science has proven that the earth is older than 4000 years. The only way around this idea is that God created the earth to LOOK like it was much older than it was. While this is possible, the Bible does not portray God as being deceitful. So, the only other resolution is the Gap between 1:1 and 1:2- where Lucifer could have been the cause of the earth being wiped clean. This would account for dinosaurs and the continental drift and the ice ages.

More on the Gap Theory is here, or get a copy of these books, which describe it more indepth:
The Dake Bible (an all-in-one study Bible where Dake talks about this theory)
Scoffield Bible (I think Scoffield talks about it here as well- I have not looked for this in my copy. I don't use it b/c it is an heirloom)
Genesis and Evolution by Dr. DaHaan (this book starts to talk about the theory and then talks about other Creation ideas afterwords. for instance, he likens the 7 days of Creation to the growth of a Christian in their Walk)
Earth's Earliest Ages by Pember (I just started this one and it looks like it is based on Scripture- so far)

All of these books are written from the standpoint of Christianity.

All agree that after the gap, God created the earth in 7 earth days and the earth is 4000 years old- post Genesis Creation, which starts at Gen 1:2.

[A.Rachel]

Just when I thought there was something I actually understood. :wacko


Oh well. :sigh





:freaked

[Beth]

Originally posted by pilgrimian
Beth,

That's in the context of the Six Days of Creation. That isn't to say that God hadn't created anything prior to that. See in the 2 Peter passage below... the Heavens existed long ago.




That's good to know.
It's too bad He did not make it more clear in Exodus 20:11 isn't it? Obviously He didn't mean the heavens plural, and the all.

Exodus 20
11 "(1) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

This is from NASB which I understand is your preferred version. Maybe in the next updated edition the editors should correct this to heaven (singular) and mostly all, instead of all to bring it into line with what you're explaining here. It's rather contradictory as it stands now. Currently it really does sound like God made every thing that He made in 6 days, but according to what you believe and are teaching, that can't be correct.

[Timothy]

One more...

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan was a "murderer" - literally translated, it's "manslayer." Satan could not have been a manslayer before there was a man to slay. Therefore, the "beginning" in John 8:44 was not the moment of the creation of this angelic being, but the beginning of human sin.

[Rom831]

To answer the OP, neither. Its that old time question. Satan rebelled in eternity, not here on earth. We know this because we see Satan trying to be on a throne equal to God. God's throne is in heaven which is eternity.

Eternity isn't before or after, its eternal. All we can see is that in our 'time' on day six God said ALL of creation was 'very good'. Not just the earth-part of it, but all of it. This would include the angels which were a creation as well. But Satan was a deciever in the Garden. So somewhere between that time, Satan was cast to earth.

As far as the pre Noah flood, its another lie, don't buy it.

2Pe 3:5-7
(5) For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
(6) through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
(7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Yes, the world was covered with water, God says very clearly in Genesis 1 that it was created covered in water (as opposed to molten as science claims). It no where says there was anything before. Why "again"? Not because it ha happened before the flood of Noah, but because it had happened in the flood of Noah. It only takes doing something ONE time to say 'I'll never do it again', not twice.

There was no pre Adamic world, no flood that destroyed it, no death before Adam sinned (no sin for that matter). Its as Biblical as purgatory and paying for the forgivness of the sins of family members. Its just not there.

Bless...ArtS

[Hootmon]

Did Satan rebel before or after humanity was created? In the context of Genesis, Before...

[Hyssop]

:bump

[blitzkreig]

I guess when the Bible states in 2Peter 3:5 ..."it escapes their notice" ... it really means it...

[Joseph Eley]

Science has proven that the earth is older than 4000 years. The only way around this idea is that God created the earth to LOOK like it was much older than it was. While this is possible, the Bible does not portray God as being deceitful.

God created Adam and Eve fully grown, as well as the stars in heaven. I wouldn't call it deceitful.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by Joseph Eley
God created Adam and Eve fully grown, as well as the stars in heaven. I wouldn't call it deceitful. I would entirely avoid the use of the word "deceitful"... but if the earth is only a few thousand years old... a ruse HAS been perpetrated on the science community... that is for sure ... and there has been other precedents.

For example Jesus spoke in parables at times expressly for the purpose of "not making the content of the message entirely clear" to everyone at the time ...