Confused about some things/people in the Passion

[Ajani]

My husband and I were wondering 3 things after seeing The Passion last night. I know that there are Passion threads, but I haven't seen one for Passion questions.

1/ What was the deal with satan (and also what was the deal with the hairy, butt-ugly man-baby)? Why did he scream (it sounded like a negative scream) when Jesus died?

3/ Why did Mary and the other woman (presumably Mary Magdaline - was she the adulterous woman - have to mop up after Jesus was flogged? They were even given the cloths to do it.

2/ Who was the woman in braids with the daughter? She tried to give Jesus a drink during one of the (many, many, many) times that they showed him falling while carrying the cross.

[Kung Pao Smurf]

Originally posted by Ajani
My husband and I were wondering 3 things after seeing The Passion last night. I know that there are Passion threads, but I haven't seen one for Passion questions.

1/ What was the deal with satan (and also what was the deal with the hairy, butt-ugly man-baby)? Why did he scream (it sounded like a negative scream) when Jesus died?

As far as the man-baby went, I got the impression that Satan and the baby were taunting Mary/Jesus....as if to say "Look at me. I am caring for my baby....I love my baby. What about you?"

As far as the scream, if you were Satan, and you had to watch Jesus rise from Hell to resurrection, you'd be ticked too. :heh

3/ Why did Mary and the other woman (presumably Mary Magdaline - was she the adulterous woman - have to mop up after Jesus was flogged? They were even given the cloths to do it.

I've got no clue about that one.

2/ Who was the woman in braids with the daughter? She tried to give Jesus a drink during one of the (many, many, many) times that they showed him falling while carrying the cross.[/COLOR]

Just some girl.

[Vickimac]

Many think that the baby was to represent the AC. Sort of satans way of saying "Even if you do this, I will bring have my "own" child to deceive the world" a taunt, and the scream at the end was in defeat, because in knowing that the sacrifice was complete, that Jesus paid the price of salvation, a big loss for satan.

As for the mopping, I have heard that it is a Jewish custom, even today (as with suicide bombers) to gather all pieces and blood of the deceased.

The girl with the braids, I don't think is biblical. Maybe creative licence? As was showing possibilities like Jesus as a child falling, etc.

[Ajani]

As far as the scream, if you were Satan, and you had to watch Jesus rise from Hell to resurrection, you'd be ticked too.


I think I missed that. To me it seemed like the scream came from Jesus death, not His ressurection.

[AnotherOldGuy]

To me it seemed like the scream came from Jesus death, not His ressurection.

Christ's death was the sacrifice.

Paul preached "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" not "Him risen".

(Rom 5:6) For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

(Rom 5:8) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[antsinmypants]

Originally posted by Vickimac
As for the mopping, I have heard that it is a Jewish custom, even today (as with suicide bombers) to gather all pieces and blood of the deceased.

while this may or may not have been true, she would not have been able to even get in to the "Torture area" where Y'shua had been held to do so.

Women were not allowed, and especially family, were not allowed to see that sort of thing, unless they were next.

The "mopping" is a Roman tradition that supposedly MAY have happend.. but according to history, and Halachah, it's very unlikely.



The woman with the braids & water, if I remember correctly, is the same that wipes off Y'shua's face.

She is "veronica" the wife of Joseph of aramathea, and according to Roman Catholic Tradition, did just that, and "wiped his face" and on her veil (headcovering) "remained the face of Jesus" and somewhere in Europe, that Relic is still in the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.

They've carbon dated and tested it with forensic science, and the time doesn't even remotely line up to even 70CE-- and it's not even blood that is on there.

[AnotherOldGuy]

The woman with the braids & water, if I remember correctly, is the same that wipes off Y'shua's face.

Yeah, that was supposed to be Veronica. The movie shows her handing her veil to Jesus and He presses it to His face. You don't want to be wiping raw wounds with a dry piece of cloth. (ouch)

Whether it happened or not, doesn't affect the Gospel message one way or the other. While relic 'worship' is indeed wrong, that isn't shown in the movie. And when most people have to have these things pointed out to them and explained, it would seem to me that the movie's detractors are doing the same thing that they're hollering at Gibson about.

[Ajani]

Originally posted by AnotherOldGuy
Christ's death was the sacrifice.

Paul preached "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" not "Him risen".

(Rom 5:6) For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

(Rom 5:8) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

:confused Right. Of course Christs death was the sacrifice. I misunderstood the scene and thought that satan was screaming when Jesus died, rather than when He was ressurected. Christs death wasn't the point until He rose again and defeated the grave, so for satan to scream before knowing that Jesus would come back, having conqured death, confused me.

[jelli<><]

Right. Of course Christs death was the sacrifice. I misunderstood the scene and thought that satan was screaming when Jesus died, rather than when He was ressurected. Christs death wasn't the point until He rose again and defeated the grave, so for satan to scream before knowing that Jesus would come back, having conqured death, confused me.


Exactly. You might want to check out one of the Passion threads that have concerns about this movie. "The Passion is Evil" thread addresses some of your questions.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Christs death wasn't the point until He rose again and defeated the grave, so for satan to scream before knowing that Jesus would come back, having conqured death, confused me.

Satan knew that Jesus would come back. I'm sure he had a big scoreboard with goose egg on it (metaphorically speaking). He knew that Jesus hadn't disqualified Himself.

[pilgrimian]

Originally posted by Ajani
:confused Right. Of course Christs death was the sacrifice. I misunderstood the scene and thought that satan was screaming when Jesus died, rather than when He was ressurected. Christs death wasn't the point until He rose again and defeated the grave, so for satan to scream before knowing that Jesus would come back, having conqured death, confused me.

Satan is far from stupid--yet the father of arrogance. He has known God's plan for redemption from early on...he understood Genesis 3:15 correctly. Why do you think he wanted to do all he could to stop the coming of Jesus? Why do you think there is so much anger among unbelieving Jews regarding Jesus? Satan wants to make sure as many Jews go through the Tribulation as possible...he is the father of Anti-Semitism.

Satan knew when Christ had died that He would rise again. Satan knew that He proclaimed victory to the captives. I agree that His resurrection may have been a better time for this scream...but our redemption was paid on the cross.

Godspeed,
Matthew

[SeaDreamer]

Originally posted by Ajani


I did too until reading this thread. I was thinking it's where they practiced some creative liscense. I'd much rather have the movie end on His coming to life again victorious than satan screaming. It's possible they put the scene where it was for that reason.

[Ajani]

Originally posted by SeaDreamer
I did too until reading this thread. I was thinking it's where they practiced some creative liscense. I'd much rather have the movie end on His coming to life again victorious than satan screaming. It's possible they put the scene where it was for that reason.

That makes sense. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks. :thumb

[Jeanne]

Originally posted by Ajani

1/ What was the deal with satan (and also what was the deal with the hairy, butt-ugly man-baby)? Why did he scream (it sounded like a negative scream) when Jesus died?
When Jesus died on the cross, he conquered death. Paul states in Ephesians that Jesus,
When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
He led the people that have died previously before He was crucified out of a place called paradise to heaven. Abrahams' Bosom.
Also when Jesus cried out "it is accomplished" or "finished", I believe Satan knew that this was a turning point for all people to now have a way to wash away thier sins and not be captive to Satan's seductive powers from then on.

The baby is Satan's way of mocking Mary and Baby Jesus. It is posted on the "Anything Goes" forum.

3/ Why did Mary and the other woman (presumably Mary Magdaline - was she the adulterous woman - have to mop up after Jesus was flogged? They were even given the cloths to do it.

They didn't have to, I just believe that Mary was so full of grief and loved her Son so much that her motherly instincts came forth by cleaning after her beloved Jesus. Yes that was Mary Magdaline with her. The cloths were given to Mary by Pontius Pilates' wife.

2/ Who was the woman in braids with the daughter? She tried to give Jesus a drink during one of the (many, many, many) times that they showed him falling while carrying the cross.

As others have stated this was Veronica. I posted a link to her on another thread. Here it is again. You can find more if you do a google search for "Saint Veronica"
Saint Veronica (http://www.jcsm.org/BELIEVE/txh/veronica.htm)

[Vickimac]

Originally posted by Ajani
:confused Right. Of course Christs death was the sacrifice. I misunderstood the scene and thought that satan was screaming when Jesus died, rather than when He was ressurected. Christs death wasn't the point until He rose again and defeated the grave, so for satan to scream before knowing that Jesus would come back, having conqured death, confused me.

I was bewildered at first when he started screaming too. But then I thought of Jesus saying "It is finished", the wages of sin had been paid! Sin no longer separated us from God. :):

He probably DID scream! :D:

[Bible Girl]

Actually the mopping up of the blood is not Roman as someone indicated earlier, it is a very Jewish custom. They are taught believe that the life is in the blood and that it is to be buried with the body. It is more complicated than that but that is the basics of it

It is my understanding that they still do this even today.

BG

[Vickimac]

I knew I'd heard that. Thanks Bible Girl!

The woman who played Mary is Jewish.

[HiLaReE320]

Yeah to me, that Satan screaming thing was freaky. He was ticked off! He screamed because he had failed in tempting Jesus, just like in the beginning of the movie when Satan was trying to tell Jesus that no one man can take the sins of man upon them... When Jesus DID die for our sins, I'm sure Satan was mad!! It means he's dead meat! (well, eventually! and he knows it..)


But I have another question that I don't think has been asked and was wondering about..
In the beginning in Gethsemane, when Jesus was praying He said something like "Father protect me".. Satan asked "Who is your father? Who are you?" I thought that was kinda wierd because I would think Satan would know who Jesus was already.... Anyone know what that meant??

[Medic911]

Right. Of course Christs death was the sacrifice. I misunderstood the scene and thought that satan was screaming when Jesus died, rather than when He was ressurected. Christs death wasn't the point until He rose again and defeated the grave, so for satan to scream before knowing that Jesus would come back, having conqured death, confused me.

Ahh... but the veil in the Temple was torn in two immediately after His death... and I would submit that the symbolism wasn't lost on satan.
Also remember that in the opening scene, satan told Jesus, "Do you really think that one man can bear the sins of all the world?" Although this particular scene was artistic license rather than directly Scriptural, we see that (at least in the movie) satan understood why Jesus was planning to go willingly to His death, and would have probably hoped that He would succumb to temptation by calling forth angels to His rescue, or otherwise setting Himself free.
When He finally died, satan realized that he had lost (as predicted in Genesis, he had bruised Christ's heel, but Jesus had bruised satan's head... also symbolically depicted in the scene with the snake) and therefore cried out in anguish and anger.

[Mommy2KandM]

Originally posted by HiLaReE320


But I have another question that I don't think has been asked and was wondering about..
In the beginning in Gethsemane, when Jesus was praying He said something like "Father protect me".. Satan asked "Who is your father? Who are you?" I thought that was kinda wierd because I would think Satan would know who Jesus was already.... Anyone know what that meant??

I am sure Satan knew who he was. It was a sarcastic type of question. A taunting I am more powerful... who do you and your father really think you are type of question. Just trying to torment him and harass him. Or cause him to doubt.

[Hyssop]

Hi Ajani,

My husband and I had a few questions as well...

I've recently learned that the artistic license that Mel used was actually mostly taken from the book by a catholic nun. In fact, most of the scenes that left us wondering were taken almost exactly from this book- (called: The Dolores Passion Of The Christ) or something similar to that.

Anyway, from what I understand she (the nun) saw visions from an early age and was able to transport herself through space and time and claimed to have witnessed the crucifixion (and things that we saw as added to scripture in the Passion movie are in her book) also supposedly she bled (stigmata?) from wounds similar to the wounds Jesus suffered on the cross. I read that Mel carries a piece of her habit around in his pocket. (?) Oh, she also lived on <only> the bread and wine of eucharist and nothing else for twelve years.

It seems Mel used her book as an inspiration for much of the film.

Maybe that will clear up a few of the questions.

YSIC, Hssop

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

Originally posted by Hyssop


I've recently learned that the artistic license that Mel used was actually mostly taken from the book by a catholic nun. In fact, most of the scenes that left us wondering were taken almost exactly from this book- (called: The Dolores Passion Of The Christ) or something similar to that.

Anyway, from what I understand she (the nun) saw visions from an early age and was able to transport herself through space and time and claimed to have witnessed the crucifixion (and things that we saw as added to scripture in the Passion movie are in her book) also supposedly she bled (stigmata?) from wounds similar to the wounds Jesus suffered on the cross. I read that Mel carries a piece of her habit around in his pocket. (?) Oh, she also lived on <only> the bread and wine of eucharist and nothing else for twelve years.

It seems Mel used her book as an inspiration for much of the film.

Maybe that will clear up a few of the questions.

YSIC, Hssop

:thumb

[Medic911]

It's important to understand that there are few scenes in the movie which are not Sciptural. Yes, there are certainly a few... but they are few and they do not conflict with or contradict Scripture in any way. In other words, although we don't know whether certain events occured, they possibly could have. (Such as Judas being haunted by demons or the woman wiping Jesus's face with a cloth.)

So long as they don't contradict Scripture, I have no problem with Mr.Gibson fleshing out the details of these events with so-called 'artistic license'. Many other movies have done so in the past (such as 'Jesus of Nazareth') and no one got uptight about it, because the producer wasn't Catholic.

[Hyssop]

Thanks Medic,

I believe actually that there are a few that contradict Scripture, from what I recall reading anyway... There is a link around here somewhere or you can PM me for a link to where I found my information.



FTR: Not attempting to start any debates mind you, just passing along some of (what I thought was) interesting history regarding those extra Biblical scenes in the film. (Thanks!)

YSIC, Hyssop

[Jaymie]

Which scene or scenes contradicted scripture?


Not debating either, but honesty would like to know before I go see it again so I can watch for it.

Thanks.

[Hyssop]

PM me your email and I'll just forward you the page (it is a long and in depth read) :):

[farfromhome]

Yes, I would like to know too, I am also going to see it again.

[Hyssop]

PM me then :thumb

[farfromhome]

Thanks, I just did. :):

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

In movie
Satan torments Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane

in book

Chapter I p. 45
“But Satan, who was enthroned amid all these horrors, and even filled with diabolical joy at the sight of them, let loose his fury against Jesus, and displayed before the eyes of his soul increasingly awful visions, at the same time addressing his adorable humanity in words such as these: ‘Takest thou even this sin upon thyself? Art thou willing to bear its penalty? Art thou prepared to satisfy for all these sins?’”

In movie
Mary wakes up, sensing Jesus’s arrest

in book

Chapter I p. 58
“During this agony of Jesus, I saw the Blessed Virgin also overwhelmed with sorrow and anguish of soul, in the house of Mary, the mother of Mark. She was with Magdalen and Mary in the garden belonging to the house, and almost prostrate from grief, with her whole body bowed down as she knelt. She fainted several times, for she beheld in spirit different portions of the agony of Jesus.”
Chapter XI p. 99

“THE Blessed Virgin was ever united to her Divine Son by interior spiritual communications; she was, therefore, fully aware of all that happened to him—she suffered with him, and joined in his continual prayer for his murderers. But her maternal feelings prompted her to supplicate Almighty God most ardently not to suffer the crime to be completed, and to save her Son from such dreadful torments.”

in movie
Soldiers throw Jesus off a bridge
in book

Chapter III p. 71

“I saw our Lord fall twice before he reached the bridge, and these falls were caused entirely by the barbarous manner in which the soldiers dragged him; but when they were half over the bridge they gave full vent to their brutal inclinations, and struck Jesus with such violence that they threw him off the bridge into the water”

in movie
Jesus’ abuse when before the priests.

In book

Chapter VI p. 84

“At this answer of Jesus the countenance of Annas flushed with fury and indignation. A base menial who was standing near perceived this, and he immediately struck our Lord on the face with his iron gauntlet, exclaiming at the same moment, ‘Answerest thou the High Priest so?’ Jesus was so nearly prostrated by the violence of the blow, that when the guards likewise reviled and struck him, he fell quite down, and blood trickled from his face on to the floor. Laughter, insults, and bitter words resounded through the hall. The archers dragged him roughly up again, and he mildly answered, ‘If 1 have spoken evil. give testimony of the evil; but if well, why strikest thou me?’”


In movie
After thrice denying Jesus, Peter runs to Mary, weeping and calling her, “Mother.”

in book

Chapter XI p. 100

“Mary approached him instantly, and said, ‘Simon, tell me, I entreat you, what is become of Jesus, my Son !’ These words pierced his very heart; he could not even look at her, but turned away, and again wrung his hands. Mary drew close to him, and said in a voice trembling with emotion: ‘Simon, son of John, why dost thou not answer me?’—'Mother!’ exclaimed Peter, in a dejected tone, ‘0, Mother, speak not to me—thy Son is suffering more than words can express: speak not to me!’”
in movie
Mary walks about the now-emptied courtyard and then falls with her face pressed to the floor, directly above the cell in which Jesus is imprisoned

in book

Chapter XI p. 101

“John, therefore, led her and the holy women to the front of the prison where Jesus was confined. Mary was with Jesus in spirit, and Jesus was with her; but this loving Mother wished to hear with her own cars the voice of her Divine Son.”

in movie
Satan and his minions torment Judas

in book

Chapter V p. 82

“I beheld the traitor, Judas Iscariot, wandering about, alone, and a prey to the tortures of his guilty con-science; he feared even his own shadow, and was followed by many devils, who endeavored to turn his feelings of remorse into black despair.”


in movie
An effeminate Herod is depicted amidst cushions

in book


Chapter XX p. 124

“Herod was expecting them. He was seated on a pile of cushions, heaped together so as to form a species of throne, in a spacious hall, and surrounded by courtiers and warriors.”

Chapter XX p. 125

“the luxurious and effeminate prince turned away in disgust, uttered the name of God, and said to the priests in a tone of mingled pity and contempt, ‘Take him hence, and bring him not back into my presence in such a deplorable state.’”


in movie
Herod calls Jesus a fool and commands that Jesus be given a fool’s homage

in book


Chapter XX p. 127

“But he spoke in the most contemptuous manner to Jesus, and turning to the guards and servants who surrounded him, and who were about two hundred in number, said: ‘Take away this fool, and pay him that homage which is his due; he is mad, rather than guilty of any crime.’”

in movie
The scourging scene is very similar to that written by Emmerich. Jesus is scourged against a pillar in the center of a courtyard. The scourging culminates with the use of chains with barbs that tear chunks off his back. Jesus is then rotated so the soldiers can scourge the other side. Mary is prominent throughout the scene as if exhorting Jesus.
in book

Chapter XXII p. 133

“This pillar, placed in the centre of the court, stood alone, and did not serve to sustain any part of the building”
Chapter XXII p. 133

“Jesus trembled and shuddered as he stood before the pillar, and took off his garments as quickly as he could, but his hands were bloody and swollen. The only return he made when his brutal executioners struck and abused him was to pray for them in the most touching manner: he turned his face once towards his Mother, who was standing overcome with grief; this look quite unnerved her: she fainted, and would have fallen, had not the holy women who were there supported her.”
Chapter XXII p. 135

“Two fresh executioners took the places of the last mentioned, who were beginning to flag; their scourges were composed of small chains, or straps covered with iron hooks, which penetrated to the bone, and tore off large pieces of flesh at every blow. What word, alas! could describe this terrible—this heartrending scene!

The cruelty of these barbarians was nevertheless not yet satiated; they untied Jesus, and again fastened him up with his back turned towards the pillar. As he was totally unable to support himself in an upright position, they passed cords round his waist, under his arms, and above his knees, and having bound his hands tightly into the rings which were placed at the upper part of the pillar, they recommenced scourging him”

Chapter XXIII p. 137

“I saw the Blessed Virgin in a continual ecstasy during the time of the scourging of her Divine Son; she saw and suffered with inexpressible love and grief all the torments he was enduring.”


in movie
Pilate’s wife hands white linens to Mary, who uses these to wipe Jesus’s blood from the floor

in book

Chapter XXIII p. 137

“I saw Claudia Procles, the wife of Pilate, send some large pieces of linen to the Mother of God.”
Chapter XXIII p. 138

“Then it was that the Mother of Jesus, accompanied by the holy women, approached the pillar and wiped up the blood with which it and the ground around were saturated.”

in movie

Jesus falls multiple times while carrying the cross (These correspond to the 3rd, 7th, and 9th Stations of the Cross. “The Stations of the Cross are a popular Catholic devotion. Each of the fourteen stations stands for an event which occurred during Jesus' Passion and death at Calvary on Good Friday. A person making the Stations Of The Cross is to meditate about each event depicted at each station, and pray

in book


The First Fall:
Chapter XXXI p. I58
"When Jesus reached this spot, his strength was perfectly exhausted; he was quite unable to move; and as the archers dragged and pushed him without showing the slightest compassion, he fell quite down against this stone, and the cross fell by his side."

The Second Fall:
Chapter XXXII p. 160
"Then came her beloved Son. He was almost sinking under the heavy weight of his cross, and his head, still crowned with thorns, was drooping in agony on his shoulder. He cast a look of compassion and sorrow upon his Mother, staggered, and fell for the second time upon his hands and knees."


The Third Fall:
Chapter XXXIII p. 161
"The procession had reached an arch formed in an old wall belonging to the town, opposite to a square, in which three streets terminated, when Jesus stumbled against a large stone which was placed in the middle of the archway, the cross slipped from his shoulder, he fell upon the stone, and was totally unable to rise."

in movie
Mary meets Jesus while on the way to Golgotha

in book

(4th Station of the Cross)
Chapter XXXII p. 160
“Then came her beloved Son. He was almost sinking under the heavy weight of his cross, and his head, still crowned with thorns, was drooping in agony on his shoulder. He cast a look of compassion and sorrow upon his Mother, staggered, and fell for the second time upon his hands and knees. Mary was perfectly agonised at this sight; she forgot all else; she saw neither soldiers nor executioners; she saw nothing but her dearly-loved Son; and, springing from the doorway into the midst of the group who were insulting and abusing him, she threw herself on her knees by his side and embraced him. The only words I heard were, ‘Beloved Son!’ and ‘Mother!’”

in movie
The scene in which Simon of Cyrene is pressed into service is very similar to that written by Emmerich. One of Simon’s children is present. He is initially reluctant, exhibiting great disdain towards Jesus. Simon soon after experiences a change of heart.
in book

Chapter XXXIII pp. 161-162

“At this moment Simon of Cyrene, a pagan, happened to pass by, accompanied by his three children. He was a gardener, just returning home after working in a garden near the eastern wall of the city, and carrying a bundle of lopped branches. The soldiers perceiving by his dress that he was a pagan, seized him, and ordered him to assist Jesus in carrying his cross. He refused at first, but was soon compelled to obey, although his children, being frightened, cried and made a great noise, upon which some women quieted and took charge of them. Simon was much annoyed, and expressed the greatest vexation at being obliged to walk with a man in so deplorable a condition of dirt and misery; but Jesus wept, and cast such a mild and heavenly look upon him that he was touched, and instead of continuing to show reluctance, helped him to rise, while the executioners fastened one arm of the cross on his shoulders, and he walked behind our Lord, thus relieving him in a great measure from its weight”


http://www.av1611.org/Passion/passion.html

I am not debating or arguing I am just pointing out the truth. That which is in the movie and that which is in the book........they are very very similar if not word for word in instances.......

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

in movie
Veronica wipes Jesus’s face
in book


(6th Station of the Cross; the cloth with the bloody face imprinted in it is now a relic)
Chapter XXXIV p. 162

“Seraphia was the name of the brave woman who thus dared to confront the enraged multitude; she was the wife of Sirach, one of the councillors belonging to the Temple, and was afterwards known by the name of Veronica, which name was given from the words vera icon (true portrait), to commemorate her brave conduct on this day.

Seraphia had prepared some excellent aromatic wine, which she piously intended to present to our Lord to refresh him on his dolorous way to Calvary. She had been standing in the street for some time, and at last went back into the house to wait. She was, when I first saw her, enveloped in a long veil, and holding a little girl of nine years of age whom she had adopted, by the hand; a large veil was likewise hanging on her arm, and the little girl endeavoured to hide the jar of wine when the procession approached. Those who were marching at the head of the procession tried to push her back; but she made her way through the mob, the soldiers, and the archers, reached Jesus, fell on her knees before him, and presented the veil, saying at the same time, ‘Permit me to wipe the face of my Lord.’ Jesus took the veil in his left hand, wiped his bleeding face, and returned it with thanks. Seraphia kissed it, and put it under her cloak. The girl then timidly offered the wine, but the brutal soldiers would not allow Jesus to drink it.”

on movie
The scene of Jesus and Simon of Cyrene is very similar to that written by Emmerich. Simon threatens to stop helping if the soldiers continue in their cruelty, saying that he will do so even if the soldiers kill him. Simon then places Jesus’s arm across his shoulders, supporting him.

in book


Chapter XXXV p. 165

“Their cruelty to Jesus so exasperated Simon of Cyrene that he at last exclaimed, ‘If you continue this brutal conduct, I will throw down the cross and carry it no farther. I will do so if you kill me for it.’”

Chapter XXXV p. 166
“Jesus was on the point of again falling, but Simon, who was behind, perceiving that he could not stand, hastened to support him; he leant upon Simon, and was thus saved from falling to the ground.” [/QOUTE]

in movie
The scene in which Jesus is nailed to the cross is very similar to that written by Emmerich. After the first hand is nailed, Jesus’ other arm is stretched out with a sickening crunch to reach the hole provided for the nail. The soldiers also subject Jesus to more agony as they stretch his body out to the wooden footrest that they placed too low.

in book

[QUOTE]
Chapter XXXVIII p. 172

“The Blessed Virgin stood motionless; from time to time you might distinguish her plaintive moans; she appeared as if almost fainting from grief, and Magdalen was quite beside herself. When the executioners had nailed the right hand of our Lord, they perceived that his left hand did not reach the hole they had bored to receive the nail, therefore they tied ropes to his left arm, and having steadied their feet against the cross, pulled the left hand violently until it reached the place prepared for it. This dreadful process caused our Lord indescribable agony, his breast heaved, and his legs were quite contracted.”

Chapter XXXVIII p. 173

“The executioners had fastened a piece of wood at the lower part of the cross under where the feet of Jesus would be nailed, that thus the weight of his body might not rest upon the wounds of his hands, as also to prevent the bones of his feet from being broken when nailed to the cross. A hole had been pierced in this wood to receive the nail when driven through his feet, and there was likewise a little hollow place for his heels These precautions were taken lest his wounds should be torn open by the weight of his body, and death ensue before he had suffered all the tortures which they hoped to see him endure. The whole body of our Lord had been dragged upward, and contracted by the violent manner with which the executioners had stretched out his arms, and his knees were bent up; they therefore flattened and tied them down tightly with cords; but soon perceiving that his feet did not reach the bit of wood which was placed for them to rest upon, they became infuriated. Some of their number proposed making fresh holes for the nails which pierced his hands, as there would be considerable difficulty in removing the bit of wood, but the others would do nothing of the sort, and continued to vociferate, ‘He will not stretch himself out, but we will help him;’ they accompanied these words with the most fearful oaths and imprecations, and having fastened a rope to his right leg, dragged it violently until it reached the wood, and then tied it down as tightly as possible. The agony which Jesus suffered from this violent tension was indescribable; the words ‘My God, my God,’ escaped his lips, and the executioners increased his pain by tying his chest and arms to the cross, lest the hands should be torn from the nails. They then fastened his left foot on to his right foot, having first bored a hole through them with a species of piercer, because they could not be placed in such a position as to be nailed together at once. Next they took a very long nail and drove it completely through both feet into the cross below, which operation was more than usually painful, on account of his body being so unnaturally stretched out”

In movie
Jesus is depicted as having long hair and being generally pleasing to the eye

in book

Chapter XLI p. 178

“The complexion of our Lord was fair, like that of Mary, and slightly tinted with red; but his exposure to the weather during the last three years had tanned him considerably. His chest was wide, but not hairy like that of St. John Baptist; his shoulders broad, and his arms and thighs sinewy; his knees were strong and hardened, as is usually the case with those who have either walked or knelt much, and his legs long, with very strong muscles; his feet were well formed, and his hands beautiful, the fingers being long and tapering, and although not delicate like those of a woman, still not resembling those of a man who had laboured hard. His neck was rather long, with a well-set and finely proportioned head; his forehead large and high; his face oval; his hair, which was far from thick, was of a golden brown colour, parted in the middle and falling over his shoulders; his beard was not any great length, but pointed and divided under the chin.”

In movie
Mary begs, “Flesh of my flesh, heart of my heart, my son, let me die with you.”

In book

Meditation V p. 23
"When our Lord announced to his Blessed Mother what was going to take place, she besought him, in the most touching terms, to let her die with him."
Chapter XLIII pp. 181-182
“the Blessed Virgin, filled with intense feelings of motherly love, entreated her Son to permit her to die with him”

In the movie
A soldier is showered by Jesus’ blood after piercing His side

In the book

Chapter XLVIII pp. 197-198

“He seized his lance and rode quickly up to the mound on which the Cross was planted, stopped just between the cross of the good thief and that of our Lord, and taking his lance in both hands, thrust it so completely into the right side of Jesus that the point went through the heart, and appeared on the left side. When Cassius drew his lance out of the wound a quantity of blood and water rushed from it, and flowed over his face and body. This species of washing produced effects somewhat similar to the vivifying waters of Baptism: grace and salvation at once entered his soul. He leaped from his horse, threw himself upon his knees, struck his breast, and confessed loudly before all his firm belief in the divinity of Jesus.”

In the movie
Jesus’ body is lowered into Mary’s arms and the camera focuses on Mary in the “Pieta pose” before panning and fading out (this suggests Mary as a co-redeemer)

In the book

Chapter L p. 206
“When the body was taken down it was wrapped in linen from the knees to the waist, and then placed in the arms of the Blessed Virgin, who, overwhelmed with sorrow and love, stretched them forth to receive their precious burden.”

Chapter LI p. 206

“The Blessed Virgin seated herself upon a large cloth spread on the ground, with her right knee, which was slightly raised, and her back resting against some mantles, rolled together so as to form a species of cushion. No precaution had been neglected which could in any way facilitate to her—the Mother of Sorrows—in her deep affliction of soul, the mournful but most sacred duty which she was about to fulfil in regard to the body of her beloved Son. The adorable head of Jesus rested upon Mary’s knee, and his body was stretched upon a sheet. The Blessed Virgin was overwhelmed with sorrow and love. Once more, and for the last time, did she hold in her arms the body of her most beloved Son, to whom she had been unable to give any testimony of love during the long hours of his martyrdom. And she gazed upon his wounds and fondly embraced his blood-stained cheeks, whilst Magdalen pressed her face upon his feet.”


http://www.av1611.org/Passion/passion.html

There is no denying that these scenes that we call "artistic lisence" is written in a book by this nun.......and believed to be true to Mel Gibson is in the movie.......

[Medic911]

There is no denying that these scenes that we call "artistic lisence" is written in a book by this nun.......and believed to be true to Mel Gibson is in the movie.......
Yes, I don't doubt that... but so long as it doesn't contradict Scripture, who really cares where the scenes originated from? The scenes in question are a very small part of the overall movie (and many people whose opinions I respect such as James Dobson, and Billy and Franklin Graham seem to agree) and don't conflict with the Gospels in any way.

If we were talking about a sacreligious scene, which somehow contradicted Scriptures, I would be singing a very different tune. I would have a tremendous and insurmountable problem with them... but these scenes in question are not misleading anyone away from the central Message, and aren't heretical at all.

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

k...........

[Medic911]

We're talking about a woman wiping blood from Jesus's face, or a soldier being sprayed when piercing Jesus' side with his spear, for goodness' sakes! It's not like we're talking about Jesus marrying Mary Magdelene, or some other similar heretical teaching!

And some of these accusations such as Mary standing in a "Pieta pose" are just ludicrous. I don't even know what a Pieta pose is... so I certainly didn't notice it in the movie. I saw nothing in the movie which diefied Mary in any way, shape, or form.

Has everyone lost their perspective?

I understand your concerns... I definately had concerns about Mel's using the nun for a source myself, until I saw it. Then I realized that nothing in the movie is in anyway contradictory to the Gospels, or to my Protestant beliefs. All of the scenes in question are very superficial and don't affect the Message whatsoever.
It would be similar to a nun saying she had a vision of Judas wearing a blue robe, and then the moviemaker depicting him in a blue robe. Do I care? No.
I care far more about whether or not they got the Gospels right, and whether or not any of the film contradicts the Gospels.

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

But Medic, even though we do not know what that means it does not distract from the fact that Mel does......and that he said he based these scenes on the book!!!!!!

It does not take away that Mel put them in there because he believes them to be truth!! Even if we do not understand, those who are/were Catholic understand perfectly.

That this movie is a life action of the 14 stations of the Cross.........now is that scriptual??

Honestly I do not want to argue, for goodness sakes I have been a member here for almost 4 yrs now......I don't want to be considered a trouble maker now........I am just concerned, and my concerns I believe to be genuine and yes new....I just learned all of this Tues.

[cindyw]

Originally posted by Medic911
And some of these accusations such as Mary standing in a "Pieta pose" are just ludicrous. I don't even know what a Pieta pose is... so I certainly didn't notice it in the movie. I saw nothing in the movie which diefied Mary in any way, shape, or form.



That's exactly what I thought as I read that................:confused

[Jaymie]

Protestant and Catholics both agree that Jesus died on the cross and has risen. That was what the movie was all about, the central theme. The rest is just filler material, and artistic stuff. How else can you portray evil in a movie? judas really did kill himself, that is in the bible. I would think he would be under some sort of demonic attack to even think such thoughts. I did not even see Jesus look at Satan when he was praying in the Garden. He ignored him. Satan was not even there for Jesus to see, Mel Gibson wanted us the audience to know that Satan was there spiritualy, which I am sure he was.

Everything that happened in those last 12 hours of Jesus's life, is not written down in the Bible. The Bible has the most important parts, the parts that we should know. Other things did happen, and we have no idea what those were. To make a movie about the last 12 hours of his death, if Mel went directly from the bible it would have been choppy, because the last 12 hours skip around a lot. Instead Mel added flashbacks of The Last Supper, and the Sermon on the Mount. He also had the fictional flashback of Mary and Jesus having a nice mother and son moment, which every mother and son have.

[Medic911]

That this movie is a life action of the 14 stations of the Cross.........now is that scriptual??
Of all of the issues I have with Catholicism, the '14 Stations of the Cross' (as I understand it) are probably one of the least objectionable. If there is any part of the 14 stations which is heretical, I'm not aware of it. If I understand correctly, it's simply a traditional record of the events occuring during the crucifixion, which in no way contradict Scripture. The woman wiping His face to clean the blood is probably the most controversial 'station', and I see no harm whatsoever in depicting this in the movie.

If I were a filmmaker (even as a Protestant) and were looking for a way to fill a 30 minute-long scene of Jesus carrying the cross, I'd likely look to all sorts of written and painted depictions of the event for inspiration. If I came across these events and they made for good film, and didn't conflict with Scripture, I may well have filmed the scene myself. They did, after all, make for some very moving scenes, while never contradicting the Gospels.

I've listed the 14 stations below, for reference.

Honestly I do not want to argue, for goodness sakes I have been a member here for almost 4 yrs now......I don't want to be considered a trouble maker now........I am just concerned, and my concerns I believe to be genuine and yes new....I just learned all of this Tues.
You're entitled to your opinions, and so long as you don't voice them in such a way as to 'attack' fellow members, you will never be labeled a trouble-maker! I enourage everyone to follow their own convictions, just so long as they keep it civil and attack specific points of the movie, rather than those who choose to support the movie. (Or not support it, as the case may be)

I have NO PROBLEM with anyone saying they choose not to support the movie (assuming they've seen it for themselves, or are otherwise basing their convictions on tangible reasons, rather than just jumping on the bandwagon) but I do have a serious problem with anyone attacking other peoples' walk with God, because they disagree on this matter.
----------------------------------------------------


Station I
Jesus is Condemned to Death

Station II
Jesus Bears His Cross

Station III
Jesus Falls a First Time

Station IV
Jesus Meets His Mother

Station V
Jesus is Helped by Simon

Station VI
Jesus and Veronica

Station VII
Jesus Falls a Second Time

Station VIII
Jesus Speaks to the Women

Station IX
Jesus Falls a Third Time

Station X
Jesus is Stripped of His Garments

Station XI
Jesus is Nailed to The Cross

Station XII
Jesus Dies on The Cross

Station XIII
Jesus is Taken Down from The Cross

Station XIV
Jesus is Laid in The Tomb

I have no problem with any of these. Other than the woman (Veronica) cleaning His face, they all seem to be supported by Scripture. As for that particular scene, it's completely irrelevant so far as the movie goes. It's just one very quick scene of a woman wiping His face. (She isn't even named)
Big deal.

[Jaymie]

Hyssop thank you so much for sending me the information. I will keep this in mind the next time I go see the movie.


From reading through everything you sent, I found nothing that went against the scripture, as it is written in the Gospel. I did see an article proving that Mel Gibson did use some things taken from that book. It would be the same thing as someone taking something from the Left Behind books and making a movie out of that. Let me say something here....the Left Behind books which I have read, is only someone's interpretation of how it plays out, it may or may not happen that way. We don't know what exactly happened in those last 12 hours, we only know the key points, and the most important that Jesus died for our salvation, and has risen.

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by Jaymie
Hyssop thank you so much for sending me the information. I will keep this in mind the next time I go see the movie.


From reading through everything you sent, I found nothing that went against the scripture, as it is written in the Gospel. I did see an article proving that Mel Gibson did use some things taken from that book. It would be the same thing as someone taking something from the Left Behind books and making a movie out of that. Let me say something here....the Left Behind books which I have read, is only someone's interpretation of how it plays out, it may or may not happen that way. We don't know what exactly happened in those last 12 hours, we only know the key points, and the most important that Jesus died for our salvation, and has risen.



You are welcome Jaymie :):

Wow that is interesting, after reading through it I'm surprised that you came to that conclusion actually, but then of course, everyone is entiltled (and should have) their own take on things. If anyone else wants to read it feel free to PM me y'all.


Blessings.

[Jaymie]

I'm doomed!!!!! :eek


Just kidding, I guess difference's in opinion is what makes everyone so unique. Thanks again. I'll let you know what I think after watching the movie again.


God Bless,

:):

[jody49285]

Sorry Sis,
I have to agree with Medic on this issue.

[Bible Girl]

Medic not that my opinion matters a whole lot. But I agree with you 100%

I have seen it twice now and all I can say is the gsopel was clearly shown. And that is what matters. Yes, extra stuff is in there but it does not detract from the truth in any way.



By the way The Peita is a statue carved by Michael Angelo it shows Mary holding Jesus in that exact pose that you saw in the movie. It is actually a great work of art. I bet you could find a pic on line somewhere. In case you care :B:

In Christ
BG

[AnotherOldGuy]

Unless you've got proof that none of those things happened, you're just as guilty as you claim Gibson is. Lack of mention in the Bible is not proof.

But Medic, even though we do not know what that means it does not distract from the fact that Mel does......and that he said he based these scenes on the book!!!!!!

I still don't see why that's a problem.



It does not take away that Mel put them in there because he believes them to be truth!! Even if we do not understand, those who are/were Catholic understand perfectly.

There's two big assumptions.

Maybe he thought if would make a good scene. Even if he believes what was shown in the movie, I don't care. Do you honestly think that Satan wasn't present in the garden?

My wife's pastor was Catholic until she went to college. I had to point out to her these "catholic" scenes - after she saw the movie - for some reason something else had her attention.



Veronica wipes Jesus’s face

Actually, she doesn't. She gives Jesus her veil and He [/i]presses[/i] it to His face.



Jesus is depicted as having long hair and being generally pleasing to the eye

You think so? I thought Caviezel was probably the least "pretty" Jesus.



A soldier is showered by Jesus’ blood after piercing His side

And what happens to the soldier after that?



Jesus’ body is lowered into Mary’s arms and the camera focuses on Mary in the "Pieta pose" before panning and fading out (this suggests Mary as a co-redeemer)

What? That is really a stretch. It suggests a woman mourning her dead son. Turn on the news some night. You'll see that scene portrayed in real life.




All of the scenes in question are very superficial and don't affect the Message whatsoever.

And many of them support scriptural concepts.



By the way The Peita is a statue carved by Michael Angelo it shows Mary holding Jesus in that exact pose that you saw in the movie. It is actually a great work of art. I bet you could find a pic on line somewhere. In case you care

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/citta/Bs-Pieta.jpg

The statue more resembles Mary holding a sleeping Jesus. Compare his body to that shown in the movie.




I really don't get all this FEAR of catholicism.

[Joyous_n_Jesus]

I take a firm stand on this and will not budge. But for now I am going to keep my mouth :tape God Bless each and everyone of you.

YSIC
Pam

[carmen]

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?threadid=135462

:):