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KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 08:52 AM
More excellent ponderings of the late Keith Green:

Some Inventions Of Man That Have Become Essential Parts Of the Modern Gospel

The Term and Concept of "Personal Savior." I find it very disturbing when something unnecessary is added to the Gospel. The use of the term "Personal Savior" isn't very harmful in itself, but it shows a kind of mind - set that is willing to "invent" terms, and then allow these terms to be preached as if they were actually found in the Bible.

But why must we do this? Why must we add needless, almost meaningless things to the Gospel? It is because we've taken so much out that we have to replace it with "spiritual double talk."

That's right, double talk! Would you ever introduce your sister like this: "This is Sheila, my personal sister"?! Or would you point to your navel and say, "This is my personal bellybutton"? Ridiculous! But nevertheless, people solemnly speak of Christ as their personal Savior, as if they've got Him right there in their shirt pocket - and as if when He returns, He will not have two, but three titles written across His thigh: King of kings, Lord of lords, and PERSONAL SAVIOR! (See Rev. 19:16.) This is only one example of how a non-biblical term can be elevated to reverence by the Church, as if to say, "Well even if it isn't in the Bible - it should be!"

The Alter Call. Imagine if you can, Jesus having people bow their heads after hearing the Sermon on the Mount, and then very slowly and softly (while Bartholomew plays "How Great Thou Art" on the accordion) saying to the crowd, "While your heads are bowed and your eyes are closed, if you really want to be My disciple tonight, if you really want to show My Father and I that you truly mean to follow this sermon I have given, then I want you to slip your hand up slowly, so that I may see it. There now... yes... yes... I see that hand ... and that one ... and the one way back by the fig tree ... yes! Now, please, while Bart plays another chorus, I'd like you to start moving down through the center of the crowd ... yes, those who raised their hand. I want to know if you really mean business. I'd like to lead you in a prayer ...

I realize that there are some who will see such an illustration as sacrilegious. And that's just the point. They think that making fun of the "altar call" is making fun of God. But it isn't. Traditions die hard, because they take so long to form. Once I received a very intense letter from the pastor of a church who had sponsored me in a city-wide concert in his area. He was upset that I had "let several hundred souls go ungathered" because I had not given an altar call. He said, "It seems you have no burden for souls." (Nothing could be further from the truth.) But because I had not given the recognized "official invitation," this pastor could see no value in my presentation of the Gospel. Or as Tony Salerno, (director of "The Agape Force"), once remarked, "If you don't give an altar call, they think you have committed the 'unpardonable sin!'"

The Gradual Altering Of the "Alter Call"

Believe it or not, the altar call was invented only about 150 years ago. It was first used by the American evangelist, Charles Finney, as a means of separating out those who wanted to talk further about the subject of salvation. Finney called the front pew "the anxious seat" (for those who were "anxious" about the state of their souls) or "the mourner's bench." Finney never "led them in a prayer," but he and a few others would spend a great deal of time praying with and giving specific instruction to each, one by one, until finally, everyone was sent home to pray and continue seeking God until "they had broken through and expressed hope in Christ," as Finney would say.

The early Salvation Army, going a bit further on Finney's innovation, developed what they called "the penitent form" or "the mercy seat." After a rousing time of singing and preaching, they would invite any sinner present who wanted to confess his sins to God and repent, to come to the front, and they would be prayed for individually. I have met a few older Christians who used to attend some of these early meetings, and they said that sometimes people would stay there all night, and on a few occasions, even a few days, weeping and confessing their sins with broken hearts. There were always some who would stay right there to instruct them further, encouraging them to make a clean sweep of sin from their lives.

This is what the early "altar call" was like. But gradually, it began to become a fixed part of every meeting, and like all other traditions, it began to lose its original spirit. The "coming forward" part started to be more important than the "sorrow, confession, repentance, and instruction" parts. Eventually, anyone who would "come down the aisle" was excitedly proclaimed "a new believer in Christ!" No matter how they felt, they still were told, "Your sins are forgiven, brother! Rejoice in Christ!" How many a miserable, defeated, and confused person has come away from a meeting like this? (Jer. 6:14)

The Sinner's Prayer. Can you also try and imagine this scene where Jesus is leading some new "disciples" in the "sinner's prayer"?

"Wow! There are so many that came forward for salvation tonight!" (The multitude applauds.) "Now, it is very simple. You just repeat this little prayer after Me, and then you're a Christian! Now it doesn't really matter whether you fully understand the prayer . . . it works just the same. Now ready? Repeat after Me... 'Dear Jesus... Come into my heart...'"and so on ...

As you can see, when we try to picture Jesus Himself using our modern methods of evangelism, it seems completely foolish. I think this is a very good test for any method. "Could I see Jesus doing this?" or "Could I see Jesus preaching or teaching this?" Since the Bible tells us, "Walk in the manner that He walked" (I John 2:6), we should always try to compare our actions and message to the Master's.

It is obvious that there is no "set" sinner's prayer. There are many variations, with different lengths, different wordings, different endings, etc., but the contents are usually the same. The prayer usually includes phrases like, "Dear Jesus," "Come into my heart," "I admit I have sinned" (at least the better ones contain this last statement - there are some who do not even like to mention sin in their "sinner's prayer"), "Fill me with Your Spirit," "In Jesus' name. Amen." Extremely harmless . . . nothing wrong with a prayer like that, right? Wrong! It isn't the wording that's important, it's the state of heart of the one saying it.

I believe that a true "sinner's prayer" will gush out of anyone who is truly seeking God and is tired of being enslaved to sin. (Matt. 5:6) The very act of "leading someone in a prayer" is utterly ridiculous. You will find nothing even remotely like it in the Bible, or among the writings and biographies of those in Church history. It completely savors of crowd and peer pressure tactics, and (please forgive me) brainwashing techniques. I do not believe that Jesus wants to have His disciples "repeat after Me," I believe He wants them to follow after Him!

Premature Birth

As with the altar call, the practice of having someone repeat a prayer with the minister probably originated from the best of intentions. And no doubt, there are those who have "followed through," continuing to pray and walk with God, entering into the path of righteousness through God's infinite grace. But also, like the altar call, the so-called "sinner's prayer" is one of those tools that make it alarmingly easy for someone to consider himself a Christian, when he has absolutely no understanding of what "counting the cost" (Luke 14:28) really means.

The greatest reason I believe that God can be grieved with the current use of such tools as the "altar call" and "sinner's prayer" is because they can take away the conviction of the Holy Spirit prematurely, before the Spirit has time to work repentance leading to salvation. With an emotional splash that usually doesn't last more than a few weeks, we believe we're leading people into the Kingdom, when really we're leading many to hell - by interfering with what the Spirit of God is trying to do in a person's life. Do you hear? Do you understand that this constitutes "spiritual abortion"? Can't you see the eternal consequences of jumping the gun, trying to bring to birth a baby that isn't ready?

We are so afraid that we'll see a "big one that got away," that we'd rather rush someone into a shallow decision, and get the personal gratification of seeing him "go down the aisle," than take the time to fully explain things to him, even if it takes long hours and nights of travailing prayer for his soul. We just don't "have the time" to do things God's way anymore.

But God would rather see one true convert than an ocean full of "decisions." Oh, can't you see what a mess we're in? What we've done to the Gospel? And when those "converts" no longer want to fellowship with us, when they want to go back to their old friends and their old way of life, we have the nerve to call it "backsliding," when we stood in the very way of them ever "front-sliding" toward the cross! Oh, it breaks my heart to think of that awsome day when God will judge those who have "stumbled one of these little ones." (Mark 9:42)

Other Man-Made Methods That Have Made the Modern Gospel Very Shallow, And Therfore Unbiblical

Quick and Easy "1-2-3 Steps-To-Salvation" Booklets. I certainly cannot fault the intentions nor the integrity of the men and organizations responsible for these little tools. One of the best known of these booklets has been printed in over 30 languages, and has over 100 million copies in circulation. With that in view, it is even more urgent for me to say that unless these or any other "gospel" booklets contain the same message that our Lord preached (and commanded His disciples to spread "to every kindred and nation"), then they are worse than "inadequate tools," they are wicked!

For the Bible says in Proverbs, "Like vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes, so is the unfaithful messenger to him who sends him." (Proverbs 10:26) Paul said that if we are really Christians, then we are "ambassadors of Christ" (II Cor. 5:20) - we are God's sole representatives in this foreign land called "the world."

With that analogy in mind, consider what a president would think of an ambassador to a foreign country, say Russia, who is told to deliver an extremely urgent message that will involve the peace of the whole world. And that ambassador (even with the best intentions) gives only a small part of the message, in such a way as to make a very different impression - in fact, the exact opposite impression - than what the president wanted to make. What do you think that president will do to the ambassador when he finds out the damage done?

Booklets like these usually mention a "sort-of" repentance like, "you must turn from your sins, to Jesus." But they rarely explain what "turning" really means. This is also true of such other vital terms such as "Lord" - they usually refer to Jesus as "Lord," but again, they seldom define "lordship" - and people go their merry way, believing they have the full right to continue running their own lives as long as they call Jesus "Lord." (See Matt 7:21; Luke 6:46.)

I don't care how many letters I get saying how much good has been done by such and such a ministry, or how many have been "saved" through such and such a booklet. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits " (Matt. 716) and in another place He said that "Your fruit should remain" (John 15:16), which means it should last! I believe we shall see in that great day, when God spreads out the lives of men in judgment, how many were truly converted by the efforts of these ministries, and how many were turned aside from the path of righteousness - being led to believe the pleasant half-truths contained in these shallow and false epistles that have been printed to the ends of the earth by people with "the best intentions, and the highest integrity." (Matt. 23:15)

The "Poor Jesus" Syndrome. This is the form of preaching that misuses the Scripture in Rev. 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock . . . " How many evangelists have used that Scripture to paint a pathetic picture of Jesus standing outside a door, waiting, knocking, knocking, waiting, for the sinner to open up and let Jesus in? Sometimes these preachers go on and on, until it starts to sound like, "Aw, poor Jesus is out there in the cold, shivering, waiting for someone to let Him in. Won't you go ahead and let poor Jesus into your heart?"

What a line of reasoning. First of all, this statement by the Lord in Revelation is not to the unsaved, it's to the Church in Laodicea (see 3:14). The picture is truly pathetic. Jesus is standing outside of His own church, knocking for them to let Him in! (Sound familiar?) And if there's any doubt left as to who He's talking to, look at verse 22, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

Second of all, the truth of the matter for sinners is the exact opposite. Jesus is not outside of their world, knocking to come in - they are outside of His Kingdom! And they can knock all night like the five foolish virgins (Matt. 25:11), but Jesus will never let them in unless they meet the requirements: a humble and contrite heart, and a complete disgust for sin. Then, and only then, will God deliver them from their slavery to sin - and transfer them by His grace to the Kingdom of His lovingkindness. God will never repent for someone - He will take every step possible to make the sinner see the folly of his ways, but the final move is up to the individual himself. Each person must make the final surrender, the desperate gasp of "I am a fool to run my own life! Lord, show me the way to your door, and I'll knock and knock, and beg forgiveness ...I'll do anything, anything, ANYTHING YOU SAY!" Then, and only then, will God save a sinner.

Bumper Stickers, Cheap Clichés, and "Christian" Slogans. It pains me to see the beautiful truths of Scripture being plastered about like beer advertisements. Many think it is wise to "get the word out" in this way but, believe that we are really just inoculating the world with bits and pieces of truth - giving them their "gospel shots." (And we're making it hard for them to "catch" the real thing!) People become numb to the truth when we splash our gaudy sayings in their eyes at every opportunity. Do you really think this is "opening them up to the Gospel"? Or is it really just another way for us to get smiles, waves, and approval from others in the "born-again club" out in the supermarket parking lot, who blow their horns with glee when they see your "Honk if you love Jesus!" bumper sticker?

What about those "other sayings"? You know, the quasi-biblical ones, like "Please be patient, God isn't finished with me yet," which can really be a horrible replacement for "I'm sorry." (And besides, it puts the blame on the wrong person - "The reason I'm such a creep is because God isn't finished with me yet.")

And if you really want to play "Stretch the Bible" there is that other fabulous excuse that absolutely ends all quests or expectations for holiness: "Christians aren't perfect... just forgiven!" Ah, how convenient. You might just as well say, "Christians aren't moral, just forgiven!" or what about "Christians aren't nice, just forgiven!" How about the ultimate? "Christians aren't saved . . . just forgiven!" (That might be a little too deep.) What we're saying by this glorious piece of prose is, "Madam, you cannot trust your teenage daughter with my Christian son, you'd better keep your eye on him . . . he's not safe . . . he's just forgiven!"

Maybe I've gone a little too far to make a point, but I think the world is completely sick to its stomach with our sayings and "witnessing tools." It's time for us to be expressing the truth with our lives, and then the whole truth of God with our lips!

"The Follow-Up Program." There is one last great mistake being committed in the name of evangelism. It is rightly called "follow-up." I say "rightly called" because it is following up the same miserable and incomplete gospel with a miserable, incomplete, and false replacement for what the Bible calls "discipleship."

Our "follow-up" usually consists of a "packet of literature," which almost always includes a complete list of all church services and functions. This "packet" also may include many "essential" items like a complete Bible study on "tithing." Also enclosed is usually at least one tithe envelope. (It's amazing that this is one "principle" that nearly every new believer learns right away!)

In my studies of the life of Jesus, it has amazed me that He never had "a follow-up program." It was usually His habit to let people "follow Him up." He never had to go door to door, looking for that fellow who He healed last week, wanting to share another parable or two. He always seemed to have the attitude of, "If they want life, then they'll have to come and follow Me."

Can't you see what fools we are? We preach a man-made, plastic gospel. We get people to come forward to "the altar" by bringing psychological pressures that have nothing to do with God. We "lead them" in a prayer that they are not yet convinced they need to say. And then to top it all off, we give them "counseling," telling them it is a sin to doubt that they're really saved!

Conclusion

And now we come to the end of this "Bible study." Yes, that's just what it has turned out to be. I hope you will take the time to look up each of the Scriptures given, and see for yourself what God has said in His Word about all these things. I realize that these articles will step on many toes, and some might even be deeply offended, but that is not my intention at all. My only prayer is that through this little effort, many will begin to take up the cross and preach the good news of our salvation with the same power and anointing that Jesus promised and gave to the early Church, and that when we ministers stand before Him on that great day, we will be able to say with Paul, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith . . . I have fully preached the Gospel of Christ" (II Tim. 4:7; Rom. 15:19), so that we may hear those sweet words from our King's lips, "Well done, good and faithful servant!" (Matt. 25:21)

Beloved family, the world around us is going to hell. Not because of communism, not because of television, not because of drugs, or sex, or alcohol, or the devil himself. It is because of the Church! We are to blame! We alone have the commission, the power, and the truth of God at our constant disposal to deliver sinner after sinner from eternal death. And even though some are willing to go... into the streets, the prisons, foreign lands, or even next door, they are taking a watered-down, distorted version of God's message which He has not promised to anoint. That is why we are failing. And unless we admit that we are failing, then I'm afraid there is no hope for us or the world around us. We have the choice between causing eternal tragedy for our whole generation, or bringing our beloved God a whole family full of "good and faithful servants."

Please pray over all of this. God is waiting to meet you in the closet. (Matt. 6:6)

Patty T
February 12th, 2004, 09:17 AM
Krispy,

I have not read the entire post, just some of it. I'll bookmark it for later.

But, I'm telling ya - God is just so good.

I was just over in Anything Goes reading about one of our sisters who recently went to be the Lord - Rio Zihora. The tears would not stop flowing and I don't even know why - but then I come here and you manage to post something that completely lifted my countenance and spirit.

Anyway, thanks for the post. I'll read the rest of it later when the eyes dry up.


Patty
:wave

KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Patty T
Krispy,

I have not read the entire post, just some of it. I'll bookmark it for later.

But, I'm telling ya - God is just so good.

I was just over in Anything Goes reading about one of our sisters who recently went to be the Lord - Rio Zihora. The tears would not stop flowing and I don't even know why - but then I come here and you manage to post something that completely lifted my countenance and spirit.

Anyway, thanks for the post. I'll read the rest of it later when the eyes dry up.


Patty
:wave

Gee... I posted something that I felt was a rather scolding (but too true!) assessment of the church today... and it uplifted you! I guess we never know how God will use our words... He is good, no doubt about it!

His Sparrow
February 12th, 2004, 09:33 AM
Woa!! Hum...... now this makes you think. I like what this guy has to say.

Jennie in TO
February 12th, 2004, 09:52 AM
Keith Green was always an anti-establishment cage rattler. I loved him! He saw everything with fresh eyes and yet he was so humble.

KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by His Sparrow
Woa!! Hum...... now this makes you think. I like what this guy has to say.

Yea, and he was 28 when he died in a plane crash. I believe he was 26 when he wrote this. Incredible insight for someone so young. Thats one of the reasons I consider him to have been a prophet in the vein of John the Baptist.

Patty T
February 12th, 2004, 10:07 AM
Well, I just finished reading the whole thing.

There's a lot there. I don't think I am able to really comment at this point. I need to meditate on what he said - look up the scriptures he gave, and go to God with it.

Thank you Krispy for your love and concern for God's family, and those who are searching.


Patty

His Sparrow
February 12th, 2004, 10:08 AM
The sad thing is I would love to share this with people I know, but would be burned at the stake. I love my church, but I hate cookie cutter Christianity. People have no clue as to what they believe and why they believe it. They simply answer with the jargon they've been taught. It's why I hang with the anti-establishment cage rattlers :thumb

KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by His Sparrow
It's why I hang with the anti-establishment cage rattlers :thumb

... come hang w/me! :nod

joint heir
February 12th, 2004, 10:17 AM
good post:thumb

I see the harm in most of it...

but I can also see how things caught on....

personal savior....I bet this began when people were witnessing to Catholics who were not saved yet thought that they were....people trying to point out that salvation is personal....and not collective...

the believers in the NT made up symbols and words...they called themselves "the way" for example for a while before the term christian caught on....christian was not Jesus's name for us either...I can't say that this is bad though...

and knocking on the heart is biblical...making Jesus seem pathetic is not...but the knocking is a good illustration...I used it with my daughter when she accepted....but she was also taught about repentance...

She had trouble understanding how she was bad when I told her all the time how wonderful she was....

I used the illustration of a catapillar and butterfly...I told her that she was a wonderful catapillar but because of sin she could never be a butterfly on her own...only Jesus could make her a butterfly....and she had to admit that she was not good enough to be a butterfly on her own and give everything to Jesus...and let him make her into a butterfly...

that was not biblical but it was Holy Spirit inspired because the lightbulb went on for her....

So I agree with so much of your post...but I think we have to be careful not to limit the words that the Spirit may give us...

KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by joint heir
good post:thumb

I see the harm in most of it...

but I can also see how things caught on....

personal savior....I bet this began when people were witnessing to Catholics who were not saved yet thought that they were....people trying to point out that salvation is personal....and not collective...

the believers in the NT made up symbols and words...they called themselves "the way" for example for a while before the term christian caught on....christian was not Jesus's name for us either...I can't say that this is bad though...

and knocking on the heart is biblical...making Jesus seem pathetic is not...but the knocking is a good illustration...I used it with my daughter when she accepted....but she was also taught about repentance...

She had trouble understanding how she was bad when I told her all the time how wonderful she was....

I used the illustration of a catapillar and butterfly...I told her that she was a wonderful catapillar but because of sin she could never be a butterfly on her own...only Jesus could make her a butterfly....and she had to admit that she was not good enough to be a butterfly on her own and give everything to Jesus...and let him make her into a butterfly...

that was not biblical but it was Holy Spirit inspired because the lightbulb went on for her....

So I agree with so much of your post...but I think we have to be careful not to limit the words that the Spirit may give us...

I understand your points, and they are well taken. I dont believe that Keith was calling these phrases sin, or anything like that. But what he was pointing out (as I am too... since obviously I am kindred spirits with KG) was that todays salvation message is extremely me-oriented. I'm sure you dont deny that to be true.

A clear presentation of the gospel, and salvation, is hardly a pretty picture for an unregenerate person. And it is hardly presented that way today. Call a spade a spade... without Christ we are all going to hell.

But once we cross over into this new life with Christ, and begin living for Him... what a wonderful picture it is indeed!

Jennie in TO
February 12th, 2004, 10:27 AM
My husband and I, both from non-Christian backgrounds, call the way some folks talk...Christianese.

It irks us to sit and listen to a sermon full of Christianese because we know that non-Christians don't have enough background to understand all the cliches. Pryaing in King James is another thing that drives me bats. :rolleyes

joint heir
February 12th, 2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I understand your points, and they are well taken. I dont believe that Keith was calling these phrases sin, or anything like that. But what he was pointing out (as I am too... since obviously I am kindred spirits with KG) was that todays salvation message is extremely me-oriented. I'm sure you dont deny that to be true.

A clear presentation of the gospel, and salvation, is hardly a pretty picture for an unregenerate person. And it is hardly presented that way today. Call a spade a spade... without Christ we are all going to hell.

But once we cross over into this new life with Christ, and begin living for Him... what a wonderful picture it is indeed!

absolutely

andy
February 12th, 2004, 10:39 AM
I have read and understand the message and words Keith is conveying. Very true.

However, my reason for accepting Jesus as my Lord, Savior, and Master started for me. I did not want to be separated from God and to go to hell. I knew, or should say God showed me my sinful state and that I was not His and that only He, through Jesus could fill the emptiness and void in my life. Praise His name forever!

After salvation, I now see that my rebirth was and is all about Him, not me. My reason for being is to serve, honor, and worship God....not for God to serve and honor me. Jesus is truly my friend...but also my Master. Jesus is my Savior...but He is also my Lord.

I think we sometimes forget the true meaning of the titles of Master and Lord and King.

Thank you for this post.

joy4Him2day
February 12th, 2004, 10:40 AM
Krispy Kritter:

Good thought provoking post.
I recently read, The Visitation by Frank Peretti (I haven't read any of his others)....altho, pretty corney, I did get some valuable lessons out of it....
first of all, every group of believers, no matter what they call themselves....baptist, pentecostal, catholic, etc.... has their own (what I call) "spiritual fetishes".....things we cling to as necessary for belief, that really have little or nothing to do with the power of God/saving grace of God.......
that article really addresses the same thing...and cautions me to really be careful about "spiritual fetishes" again.
It is a relief, really, to me, to read that some of this was just evolved from man's attempt to make things more presentable, and not necessarily Biblical......
I have worried about some of those things, and I feel today I have been given release about some of them....
I have always wondered about the "mourning bench" of Finney and Wigglesworth....those guys are always held in such esteem, and it is easy to just accept what they say.....
what Keith Greene did about picturing Jesus saying "raise your hand....etc.." is a lot of the debunking Frank Peretti did in The Visitation.....it really made you sit down and say, I am sorry Lord, that I have been so ridiculous in some of my ways......
thanks for posting it. It was one of those long ones you almost don't read......:wave

John Tyson
February 12th, 2004, 11:01 AM
Grace and peace to you all.

Just to make a small point--it's not the method, it's the heart. In the parable of the sower there are two who believed but fell away. Today, some people believe and bare fruit, others believe and fall away just as they did when Christ told the parable. The methods may be different, the songs different, the liturgy different, but the fact is that some will receive the Word and will bare fruits, and others will receive the Word and fall into apostasy. That is what the Lord has taught. Hebrews is another writing that has many warnings and "invitations" in it to believe and not fall away into the apostasy of unbelief. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see the methods or the prayers or the terminology as the problem, but throughout the ages it is the heart of unbelief. The Father draws people to Jesus in many different ways. Very few have a Damascus road method of conversion like Paul. Many are like the three thousand who were converted after they heard Peter preach Christ. Throughout time folks have been converted in many different situations; some as they were walking down the aisle, others in a one on one situation, others in the solitary of their closet. It's not the method or situation; it is how the believer receives the Word. Is it received in rocky soil, or in soil with thorns, or in good soil that produces fruit? “And these are they that are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred (Mark 4:20).”

Note: I'm in the OSAS camp.

God bless,
John

Hyssop
February 12th, 2004, 11:18 AM
Loved it! :thumb

The first part had me laughing out loud and nodding my head in agreement.

Excellent article, I'm going to save it.

Christ Rocks On
February 12th, 2004, 11:56 AM
That was a great post, Krispy. It made me realize about some of the things on here that are listed that I never did stop to think that if these (like the alter call ) were biblical or not. What really opened my eyes was when it was pointed out that Jesus' knocking at the door was for his CHURCH, not for unbelievers! :doh All these years, I equated that verse with unbelievers as well, even though I've read Revelation how many time? Too many to count I think. :doh

Now I will think twice about these type of things. And study my bible a little better. :thumb

KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Christ Rocks On
That was a great post, Krispy. It made me realize about some of the things on here that are listed that I never did stop to think that if these (like the alter call ) were biblical or not. What really opened my eyes was when it was pointed out that Jesus' knocking at the door was for his CHURCH, not for unbelievers! :doh All these years, I equated that verse with unbelievers as well, even though I've read Revelation how many time? Too many to count I think. :doh

Now I will think twice about these type of things. And study my bible a little better. :thumb

I see these articles are having the same effect on you as it did me.

ChopinFan
February 12th, 2004, 01:32 PM
I think a lot of these problems stem from the fact that we depend on our Sunday morning meetings to cover all evangelism, rather than going out in the hedges and the marketplaces ourselves to win the lost. Because we've failed to carry the great commission outside of the church walls, our church services are more like evangelistic crusades than true "church meetings."

That being said however........I don't have a problem with altar calls.....only the way some are handled. One of the most famous sermons ever preached (Peter on the day of Pentecost) was followed up with an opportunity to respond. When Philip preached to the Ethiopian eunuch, he guided him in the scriptures to saving faith in Christ, and gave him an opportunity to respond.

Some altar calls are wimpy-(bow your head, close your eyes, don't make a spectacle of yourself, et.al), but many are very powerful. I love to see someone come forward and publicly confess their faith in Christ. I think if you're going to preach about the unsearchable riches of Christ, you should give your audience a chance to respond to the message.

But I don't disagree with much of what was written above-so many things are just gimmics and pitiful tools of evangelism that do more harm than good. I'm not a big fan of "making a decision" or "repeat this prayer after me."

KrispyKritter
February 12th, 2004, 03:51 PM
:bump

Christ Rocks On
February 12th, 2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by KrispyKritter
I see these articles are having the same effect on you as it did me.

Absolutely. :nod I even saved the article, too.

cindyw
February 12th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Krispy, that was GREAT!! Thanks for passing it along. I've passed it along as well........Blessings in Jesus, Cindy:):

sunshine4jesus
February 13th, 2004, 12:43 AM
Good thought provoking post.

Just a comment on Rev.3:20

To me, it
is a personal invitation to a person, not a blanket invitation to a body of believers.
How many unbelievers do you believe are in the church today?
verse 21 speaks of overcoming as Jesus overcame. What did Jesus overcome?The world. Death which came by sin. How do we overcome it? By trusting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Faith. How do we obtain this?
By hearing the gospel message. Usually by preachers.
Every single part of the Bible is written for us. There is no part of it that has no message for us.

As for altar calls. They have their place. If I remember correctly, it is not for salvation.

And the heads bowed is to my mind a good thing. It allows the pastor to meet with that person and really explain exactly what turning one's life over to Christ really means. The public profession of faith comes afterwards. And it is a joyful occassion. Even the angels rejoice.

"All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."'Rom. 8:28
Ergo, you have bumper stickers, pamphlets, etc. People have actually been saved because of them. Home missionaries can testify to this.

We should never reach the point where we become such mature meat eating christians that we forget that spreading the simple gospel message is our greatest commission.

Thanks agian for a post that makes me reflect on my "walk" as a christian.

Hootmon
February 13th, 2004, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by ChopinFan
I think a lot of these problems stem from the fact that we depend on our Sunday morning meetings to cover all evangelism, rather than going out in the hedges and the marketplaces ourselves to win the lost. Because we've failed to carry the great commission outside of the church walls, our church services are more like evangelistic crusades than true "church meetings." What an excellent paragraph. :thumb

We are all comissioned to 'proclaim the Gospel'. That command is worth repeating from time to time.

Gods Trombone
February 13th, 2004, 08:57 AM
Many of the responses have been terrific!
I did read all of the article. It was impossible to not read it all.

However, I see a flaw in K.G.'s thought as well. He deplores the state of the "church" and rightly so, but he blames it on the wrong things.

He comes close to making it appear it is "how" we get people saved, when in reality, only Jesus saves them. So the techniques are not the problem. The problem is the sorry state of the "Church" vis-a-vis the Gospel of Grace.

As "ambassadors of Christ" all we are ordered to do is announce to the unsaved of the world the free gift of salvation offered to all in the letters of Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles. Today, "Gentiles" means everyone, Jews included.

The "church " today is a confusing mish-mash of conflicting beliefs due to the fact that the "Protestant Church" never fully defected from the Roman Catholic paradigm. Too few today understand what the true "marching orders" are for believers.

You must not mix the "Kingdom Gospel" with the "Gospel of Grace."

2 Tim. 2:15

Patty T
February 13th, 2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Gods Trombone
You must not mix the "Kingdom Gospel" with the "Gospel of Grace."

2 Tim. 2:15

It's very interesting you should end with this.

I'm reading a book that talks specifically about the two. Here is the author's (Keith Intrater) take:

I preach the Gospel of the grace of God, but not in contrast to the Gospel of the Kingdom.

The dispensational gospel of the grace of God sounds like this:

"John, do you know that you are going to heaven? You don't? Well John, I want to tell you how you can go to heaven. Jesus died for your sins. If you receive Him into your heart, you will go to heaven." If John asks, "Will I have to live differently?" the answer is, "No, John, you do not have to live differently. If you had to live idfferently, salvation would not be obtained by grace. You can receive Jesus as Savior and not receive Him as Lord. However, you will not live a fulfilled life and really be happy if you continue to live in sin. If you want to live an unfulfilled life and still go to heaven, you can do it. At lease receive Jesus and go to heaven."

It is a tenet of classical dispensational theology that you can receive Jesus as Savior without receiving Him as Lord. It is taught; it is argued. This is in great contrast to the true Gospel of grace, which I call the Gospel of the Kingdom:

"John, your life is a mess, but Jesus came to turn your life around. If you are willing to rspond to the Holy Spiriti's conviction, you can receive grace, the gift of God, and come under the rule of Jesus. If you come under the rule of Jesus, everything in your life will change. Not only will you have everlasting life if you wre to die -- but your life will be turned right side up here and now. The Kingdom of God includes His promises of deliverance, wholeness for your life, and material provision. If you walk with your Heavenly Father, every dimension of your life can be changed. God offers you nothing less than a whole new life in every area through the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. God's transforming power is offered to you whereby you can live according to His ways. Enter the Kingdom of God by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord."

That is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Thoughts or opinions?

B A N E
February 13th, 2004, 11:02 AM
But NOT the same meanings as GT will perhaps clarify.

Gods Trombone
February 13th, 2004, 11:33 AM
It's very interesting you should end with this.

[I'm reading a book that talks specifically about the two. Here is the author's (Keith Intrater) take:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I preach the Gospel of the grace of God, but not in contrast to the Gospel of the Kingdom.

The dispensational gospel of the grace of God sounds like this:

"John, do you know that you are going to heaven? You don't? Well John, I want to tell you how you can go to heaven. Jesus died for your sins. If you receive Him into your heart, you will go to heaven." If John asks, "Will I have to live differently?" the answer is, "No, John, you do not have to live differently. If you had to live idfferently, salvation would not be obtained by grace. You can receive Jesus as Savior and not receive Him as Lord. However, you will not live a fulfilled life and really be happy if you continue to live in sin. If you want to live an unfulfilled life and still go to heaven, you can do it. At lease receive Jesus and go to heaven."

It is a tenet of classical dispensational theology that you can receive Jesus as Savior without receiving Him as Lord. It is taught; it is argued. This is in great contrast to the true Gospel of grace, which I call the Gospel of the Kingdom:

"John, your life is a mess, but Jesus came to turn your life around. If you are willing to rspond to the Holy Spiriti's conviction, you can receive grace, the gift of God, and come under the rule of Jesus. If you come under the rule of Jesus, everything in your life will change. Not only will you have everlasting life if you wre to die -- but your life will be turned right side up here and now. The Kingdom of God includes His promises of deliverance, wholeness for your life, and material provision. If you walk with your Heavenly Father, every dimension of your life can be changed. God offers you nothing less than a whole new life in every area through the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. God's transforming power is offered to you whereby you can live according to His ways. Enter the Kingdom of God by receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord."

That is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thoughts or opinions?


__________________






I read the piece, and though it is very, very interesting- the author admits to his own idea of "Kingdom Gospel" which is not what I meant by "Kingdom Gospel."

The dispie gospel of the grace of God sounds like this:

No, it does not! It sounds like the books of Romans through Philemon.

(With references to the entire Bible included )

It is a tenet of classical dispie etc."

False statement.



That is the Gospel of the Kingdom

No. That is the "Gospel" of the author.

The "Gospel of the Kingdom" is scripturally "the Gospel of the Circumcision", also properly know as the Gospel preached by John the Baptist, Jesus on earth, and the 12 Apostles- particularly vocalized by Peter in early Acts. It was only preached to Israel, and that because it was the prophesied message of the OT that Israel would be sent a Messiah. The Kingdom Gospel was to believe on Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel. We should not mix that message with the Gospel of Grace Paul received from the Lord from heaven, and which Paul passed to us through his letters.


Sorry about the blue text. I am getting confused trying to edit so I will leave "as is." GT

KrispyKritter
February 13th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Y'all have completely lost me... I officially have no idea what you're talking about.... and it's MY dog gone thread! :laugh

Gods Trombone
February 13th, 2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Y'all have completely lost me... I officially have no idea what you're talking about.... and it's MY dog gone thread! :laugh

Officially? :confused :laugh

emmy
February 13th, 2004, 12:14 PM
Patty T, I strongly disagree with those statements given in this book you are reading. In the first example, John is told he doesn't have to change, just receive. This is not biblical, salvation is about REPENTANCE and TURNING AWAY from sinful practices, shown in the 10 commandments. We must forsake sin and leave it in order to follow Christ, our flesh being crucified with him. The first public words Jesus preached was "repent" Matt 4:17. Without repentance, they will perish. And on the second point, Jesus came to save that which was lost not to promise a "good life" and happiness, he promised righteousness to those who repent. He did not promise to turn your life around and straighten out the messes you created, but to save you from the wrath to come. Those who subscribe to the gospel of happiness, joy and peace, will not be able to stand when things may get rough. This is man centered thinking, what's in it for me? If we really take a hard look at what we were in for apart from Christ, we will treasure his sacrifice for us and live in a way that shows we believe it.

Gods Trombone
February 13th, 2004, 12:42 PM
Emmy,


:nod

blitzkreig
February 13th, 2004, 12:59 PM
Quite some time ago I got interested in the origin of the "Alter Call" and tripped over this article which might be of interest. The Altar Call: Is It Harmful or Helpful? (http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/full.asp?ID=704)

I would post the whole thing but it runs a couple of pages. Well worth the reading however.

Patty T
February 14th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back - lots going on here the last two days.

I am reading this book and asking for discernment. Certainly I do not agree with everything the author writes. I do however, like to read a variety of opinions/interpretations as I believe they make us dig deeper into the word to see what God has to say :nod

Some of his ideas are very interesting - but like it's been said constantly - we must see how/if it lines up with scripture.

Thanks to everyone who responded.


Patty

P.S. Krispy - how'd you get lost in your own thread? :pound j/k :kiss

BHiles
February 14th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Although we use the alter call for people to be dealt with at the alter and learn of salvation, we are not an evagelistic church. Meaning this is not the primary purpose of the Sunday Sevices, although elliciting some response is, mainly for the believer to make a change. The alter call in this process allows for an action to taked place that is humbling at hopefully seeds into the mind a more permanent change. That being said.

We are a soulwinning church. We go out and witness mostly two by two and bring the converts to church after they have been saved during the week. We do use a sinners prayer as only an example of the things that need to be dealt with in the person who wants to accept Christ. But we do find a better chance of the person growing in grace if they would come to church and walk an aisle and declare their salvation before men. A huge emphasis is placed on baptism, again not for anything other than obedience in that believers life and a confession before men of their decision. I know that at times methods are abused and that is dangerous. But I do find it better to be a soulwinning church than an evangelistic one.

aboundingjoy
February 16th, 2004, 08:59 AM
Thank you for posting this.

I grew up Catholic, with rosary beads and Blessed Virgin medals to wear around my neck, and even learned the "Our Father"--Lord's Prayer--in Latin as a kid.

Now I attend an AoG and altar calls are as familiar to me as rosaries once were--I've looked at Christianity from both sides now.

It is the heart that matters--An altar call can be a profound event for someone like me who did not grow up with altar calls. It can be a turning point for some of us to go forward to the front of the church when the back row is our favorite spot.

God can use all kinds of ways and means to get us to Him--It's up to each of us to learn how to stay in the presence and guidance of the Lord.

Just my thoughts.