Mary worship

[Diamond]

Question:

I was raised Catholic (I'm Lutheran now) and I remember being
taught that Mary did not die a physical death...she assended into
heaven.

So some people believe that by praying to Mary, it is praying to the dead...but she did not die....did she? (I do not believe in
praying to Mary--just to set that straight)

Thoughts?

[Becky]

Moving this to Christian Chat. :):

[Singlesis]

I don't know what all Catholics teach, but I don't know where the idea that Mary "ascended" rather than died a physical death came from. I'll let others debate that one, but I don't believe it.

Regardless, I don't pray to anyone other than the Lord, dead or alive.

[Angyl]

There's no direct scripture that says Mary died.

There is no scripture that says she ascended into heaven either.

The assumption that she did, therefore, is a stretch since she was born of a man and inherited sin just like the rest of us. If God had made an exception in her case, He likely would have told us about it the way he did with Elijah and Enoch. (it was Enoch who was and then simply was taken, right?:D:)

Edit to add:

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
:thumb

[Singlesis]

Jesus ascended into heaven;
Elijah was carried away in a whirlwind.

[Patty T]

My understanding is this.

Those who God "took" like Enoch, are mentioned specifically.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us "and as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement..."

I am of the belief that Mary did die, she did not ascend into heaven, otherwise scripture would have mentioned it.


Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

This verse from John tells me that the only one ascending to heaven was He who came from heaven, and that is Jesus.

[Singlesis]

Originally posted by Patty T
My understanding is this.

Those who God "took" like Enoch, are mentioned specifically.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us "and as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement..."

I am of the belief that Mary did die, she did not ascend into heaven, otherwise scripture would have mentioned it.


Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

This verse from John tells me that the only one ascending to heaven was He who came from heaven, and that is Jesus.
What Patty said. :thumb

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Diamond I was raised Catholic (I'm Lutheran now) and I remember being
taught that Mary did not die a physical death...she assended into
heaven.

:confused The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary was ascended into Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was assumed:

44. For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma:

that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
Source:
MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12MUNIF.HTM) (Emphasis mine.)

So some people believe that by praying to Mary, it is praying to the dead...but she did not die....did she? (I do not believe in praying to Mary--just to set that straight)

Thoughts?

Personally speaking, I don't care whether Mary physically died or not, as the subject does not affect my salvation. For the record, the Catholic Church has never defined whether or not Mary died (only that she was assummed after she had "completed the course of her earthly life", so Catholics can form their own opinions on the matter.

The following may be of interest to you:

Scroll down to and read this section: VI. POST-PENTECOSTAL LIFE OF MARY in the link below.

Catholic Encyclopedia Article on Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm)

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for it is by Your Grace alone that gives me Faith in You,
BB :hail
(59 more days!)

[Patty T]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
:confused The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary was ascended into Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was assumed:

BB,

Have you ever checked the definition of assumed?

From Webster's:

Adopted or used so as to deceive; pretended. :freaked

Taken for granted; supposed


Doesn't that seem strange to you? Why would they teach something as to deceive or pretend?

[Angyl]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
:confused The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary was ascended into Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was assumed:


You look confused... well now so am I.

Can you please tell me the difference between someone being "assumed", body and soul into heaven and Jesus's ascension into heaven?

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Patty T Have you ever checked the definition of assumed?
From Webster's:
Adopted or used so as to deceive; pretended. :freaked
Taken for granted; supposed
Doesn't that seem strange to you? Why would they teach something as to deceive or pretend?

That is not the way the word "assumed" is defined in the papal document that teaches Mary's assumption.

The word "assumed", in this case, means that Mary was raised into Heaven by the power of God, just as Elijah was "assumed" into Heaven by the power of God as well.

Both you and I know that words can have several deifferent definitions.

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for it is by Your Grace Alone that I have faith in You,
Bay :wave (59 more days!)

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by AngylCan you please tell me the difference between someone being "assumed", body and soul into heaven and Jesus's ascension into heaven?

Christ ascended into Heaven BY His own power. Mary was assumed into Heaven BY the power of God.

See the difference?

If not, perhaps this explanation will help:

The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

Source: Catholic Answers Article (http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp)

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ for it is By Your Grace alone that I have Faith in You,
Bay :wave

[Angyl]

I see what you're saying.

Christ did it on His own.

Mary was Taken.

...

You know, that's completely irrelevant to the original poster's question?

The Bible doesn't say that Mary was taken. That's all there is to it. In the Bible when people went to heaven BODY & SOUL whether on their own power or on God's, it is mentioned... Mary doesn't have that distinction.

So where did this doctrine come from? Why do you believe it? and why doesn't it qualify under the warning in Revelation about adding to the words of the Bible?

[blitzkreig]

I guess we all assumed the RCC said she asscended... but of course such an assumption such as ascension is presumptuous. :P:

[Patty T]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
That is not the way the word "assumed" is defined in the papal document that teaches Mary's assumption.

The word "assumed", in this case, means that Mary was raised into Heaven by the power of God, just as Elijah was "assumed" into Heaven by the power of God as well.


I'm leaning more toward this verse from John:

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

"No man" in that verse means no one - male or female. This verse from John tells me that the only one ascending or being assumed into heaven was He who came from heaven, and that is Jesus.

[falen]

Hi,

To get back to the original questin (I think), I guess we would have to know what happens when someone goes to heaven (as in dies or is assumpted or assumed). Maybe those in heaven can hear us? And if they can hear us, we ask then to pray for us.

[blitzkreig]

Yes interesting find Patty T... here a gender neutral version from the NASB

Joh 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by falen
Hi,

To get back to the original questin (I think), I guess we would have to know what happens when someone goes to heaven (as in dies or is assumpted or assumed). Maybe those in heaven can hear us? And if they can hear us, we ask then to pray for us. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

[Crescendo]

Be careful. You know what happens when you assume. ;):








Ah, c'mon now. You were all thinking it.

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Angyl You know, that's completely irrelevant to the original poster's question?

In your eyes it may be "irrelevant" to the question, but it is disseminating false information (i.e. it is "bearing false witness") about Catholic teaching that needed to be corrected.

How would you like it if I said that you believed "X" on a public message board where hundreds of people could view it when you really believed "Y"? I would expect that you would be slightly taken aback and would correct me.

No to get back *on topic*. Again, I don't care whether or not Mary physically died, as it is not affect my salvation.

Bay :wave

[Angyl]

But why

does the catholic church

SAY THAT

when there's no scripture to back it up????

Why would you join a church that is, by appearances, heading for the curses listed in the Bible according to Revelation?

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Patty T John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

"No man" in that verse means no one - male or female. This verse from John tells me that the only one ascending or being assumed into heaven was He who came from heaven, and that is Jesus.

Patty :wave

I don't see the word "assumed" in that verse. Please see my post (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1510931#post1510931) for the difference between "ascended" and "assumption".

Baylor
:):

[BaylorBrat]

Originally posted by Angyl But why does the catholic church SAY THAT when there's no scripture to back it up????

Why would you join a church that is, by appearances, heading for the curses listed in the Bible according to Revelation?

:confused Why do you want to turn this thread into a debate (:deadhorse) about the Assumption of Mary when the OP is asking whether or not Mary physically died? (I only wanted to correct something that the OP said, which I have done.) I'm not following you down the rabbit hole :B: :P:

Why join the CC? Because the Holy Spirit, Who is inside me, is leading me to do so. I have no choice but to follow my Master Jesus Christ :):

YSIC,
BB :wave

[Hootmon]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
Why join the CC? Because the Holy Spirit, Who is inside me, is leading me to do so. I have no choice but to follow my Master Jesus Christ :): Interesting way of saying that.

May He use you in powerful ways.

[waterglobe]

Originally posted by Diamond
Question:

I was raised Catholic (I'm Lutheran now) and I remember being
taught that Mary did not die a physical death...she assended into
heaven.

So some people believe that by praying to Mary, it is praying to the dead...but she did not die....did she? (I do not believe in
praying to Mary--just to set that straight)

Thoughts?

I dont know what kind of Catholic church you went to, you obviously didnt understand it....but, we DONT, nor ever have prayed to Mary, we ask her to pray for us....You know, just like you would ask your mom and dad to do it for you as well when something isnt going right in your life.

Secondly, with the 'assumed' word, get off the dictionary, cause when you translate words from Greek to English and things like that, some words are hard to translate. Cause there may not be a 'suitable' word in English that would give us the same 'effect' of the word in greek.

Just my two cents, carry on now!

[Patty T]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
Patty :wave

I don't see the word "assumed" in that verse. Please see my post (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1510931#post1510931) for the difference between "ascended" and "assumption".

Baylor
:):

Baylor :wave

I saw your post - the original idea that Mary was "taken up" into heaven - whether in an assumed fashion or ascended fashion, does not jive with scripture. John said no one has "gone up to heaven" (paraphrase mine) expect Jesus.

Patty
:):

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by BaylorBrat
[BI'm not following you down the rabbit hole [/B] I have noticed you use that expression quite a bit lately. Seems like there are a lot of rabbit holes in Rome...

[blitzkreig]

Interesting... on google if you search on "Prayed to Mary" you get 557 hits most are websited dedicated to that purpose.. Such as Our Lady Of Sorrows (http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/novenas/p00028.htm) or maybe article about the Pope praying to Mary and what a "blessing" that has been such as this Pope credits St. Louis de Montfort with clarifying Marian devotion (http://www.nccatholic.org/print.php?ArtID=1270) I love some of the quotes from that site such as The saint taught that, when one prayed to Mary, Mary offered that prayer to God, the pope said, and when one offered praise to Mary, Mary offered that praise to God.

But the real mother load (no pun intended) is if you search using the words "Pray to Mary" (present tense)... well there you get 3,710 hits devoted to such web pages (but admittedly there are a few of the hits which are anti-mary praying sites)...

[Joyful One]

"that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
Source:
MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS (Emphasis mine.)"

Immaculate - ? Don't think so .
Ever virgin - ? Don't think so .
Source - MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS (Emphasis mine.)"- The BIBLE would be soooo much better and most definately tells a different story .

And my very very favorite part - NOT -Mother of God- I really didn't know that Mary was here before God . Call me surprised . Guess it's hard to tell the dofference between God , His Son Jesus , and the Holy Spirit - next I'll read where Rome says Mary is the Mother of the Holy Spirit too . As if Mother of God isn't enough to make me sick to my stomach ...

[blitzkreig]

On a word to word comparison there is actually more space given to Mary in the Qur'an than in the Bible...

[mochamom]

For Mary worship in it's highest form...a must see:


www.udayton.edu/mary/images/jpmedi1.jpg :freaked

[Elizabeth_S]

Originally posted by Angyl
But why

does the catholic church

SAY THAT

when there's no scripture to back it up????

Why would you join a church that is, by appearances, heading for the curses listed in the Bible according to Revelation?

Why would you join a church that is, by appearances, heading for the curses listed in the Bible according to Revelation?
:tape
I saw your post - the original idea that Mary was "taken up" into heaven - whether in an assumed fashion or ascended fashion, does not jive with scripture. John said no one has "gone up to heaven" (paraphrase mine) expect Jesus.
:tape

[SapphireGrl]

Originally posted by waterglobe
I dont know what kind of Catholic church you went to, you obviously didnt understand it....but, we DONT, nor ever have prayed to Mary, we ask her to pray for us....You know, just like you would ask your mom and dad to do it for you as well when something isnt going right in your life.
You said you don't pray to her but how else do you ask her to pray for you? How do you think you're communicating with her if not by praying to her.

Also, why are you asking a dead woman that cannot hear you to pray for you? :confused

[SapphireGrl]

Originally posted by Diamond
Question:

I was raised Catholic (I'm Lutheran now) and I remember being
taught that Mary did not die a physical death...she assended into
heaven.

So some people believe that by praying to Mary, it is praying to the dead...but she did not die....did she? (I do not believe in
praying to Mary--just to set that straight)

Thoughts?
Absolute nonsense.

Mary was 100% human and Mary died as any other human did. Jesus ascended to heaven and only two people were taken to heaven by God, and that is Enoch and Elijah. That's it.

So this is just some more stuff that the catholic church has made up in order to elevate Mary to some god-like level on par with Christ. Where do they even come up with this mess? :tsk :tsk :tsk

[Thanks to Him]

Originally posted by waterglobe
I dont know what kind of Catholic church you went to, you obviously didnt understand it....but, we DONT, nor ever have prayed to Mary, we ask her to pray for us....You know, just like you would ask your mom and dad to do it for you as well when something isnt going right in your life.


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
:tape

[mochamom]

Did anyone follow my link, and see the picture of the pope kneeling before an image of Mary?

To me, that makes pretty clear the position she holds in the Catholic Church.

www.udayton.edu/mary/images/jpmedi1.jpg

[blitzkreig]

Originally posted by mochamom
Did anyone follow my link, and see the picture of the pope kneeling before an image of Mary?

To me, that makes pretty clear the position she holds in the Catholic Church.

www.udayton.edu/mary/images/jpmedi1.jpg We seen it but it pretty much speaks for itself... that is unless someone were to contend that the pope guy was just running up to take a look at the picture and tripped on that bench that was in the way and just caught himself in time using his elbows... just as someone snapped the picture :P:

[KennC]

John said no one has "gone up to heaven" (paraphrase mine) expect Jesus.
hmm, .. Jack Chick would dis-agree, he for one knows and shows quite clearly Mary is indeed Alive and bodily in Heaven as well. How he personally knows this I don't know, perhaps he consults with the dead?

[Patty T]

Originally posted by KennC
hmm, .. Jack Chick would dis-agree, he for one knows and shows quite clearly Mary is indeed Alive and bodily in Heaven as well. How he personally knows this I don't know, perhaps he consults with the dead?

That's ok if he disagrees.

I am basing my belief on the Word of God, which give absolutely no indication that Mary is "alive and bodily in heaven".

Patty
:):

[4everHis]

This thread makes me uncomfortable.

I'm very much an EX Catholic. I became a born again christian in 1972.

I never worshipped Mary or prayed to saints or lit candles to lift up prayers to God or any of that "stuff".

I was not a "good" Catholic I suppose. What bothers me that a lot of Catholics (like me before I was saved) have no clue as to faith in Christ and being born again. They trust rather in the Church and the traditions of the church, blindly following what man says.

I remameber not eating meat on fridays and all sorts of other non sense.

I'm so glad that I am now able to seperate the issues and realize that my salvation is in Jesus and not in the Catholic Church or any other religious system.

Catholic bashing makes me sick but then again, I'm not an argumentative person by nature so ....

Mary died. To think anything else is ridiculous.

[Joyful One]

Quote by 4everHis :

"I'm so glad that I am now able to seperate the issues and realize that my salvation is in Jesus and not in the Catholic Church or any other religious system.

Catholic bashing makes me sick but then again, I'm not an argumentative person by nature so ...."




For me , I don't intend to " bash "catholics . Rome ? Well that's another story . For me , I am most watchful about anything that comes from Rome .

I could list things like praying for the dead , believing the "wine and bread " become blood and bread , earning salvation or at least making a "contribution " towards it , believing and holding to a higher standard the traditions of the church over God's Holy Word . I guess the list could be longer , but I think you get my drift . The BIGGEST concern that makes me the most vocal are these few things . Really you 4everHis already said it ...

Quote by 4everHis :
"I'm so glad that I am now able to seperate the issues and realize that my salvation is in Jesus and not in the Catholic Church or any other religious system.

Salvation . Teachings that are harmful to the souls of mankind .
Jews- you don't have to believe Jesus was the Son of God . WRONG - and "if " the Jews listened to Rome - how many are doomed ? Truely the Jews would welcome that message over the Christian message - "I am the way , the truth , and the life . No man cometh to the Father , but by me "

Others who are affected are people in other countries . Sure Rome has worked hard in the area of missionaries , but what is it that the people in other countries coming away believeing ? I'm not an expert , but from what I have been able to gleam I see a lot of pictures of "converts " holding pictures of Mary holding the baby Jesus . Honestly if to them Jesus is still that baby , then they've missed the [part about living a sinless life ,dying on the cross and raising after being dead for 3 days . Seem's to mostly be about Mary . I've read someplace where maybe "Mary " is the tie that binds all the different religions of the world . I'd have to look for the info , but it appears that there is a woman in a lot of religions tha are held in high esteem - a madonna if you will . As someone pointed out even the Muslims hold her in high regard .

We've got pictures of the Pope worshippimg Mary , words giving her praise for saving his life . Really ? I would have thought there would be room someplace to thank GOD . Guess not .

Also harmed are Christians within the Roman Church . Sadly at the very least they will have to answer for placing Mary in such a high place . Remember God is a jealous God and even if the praise and adoration is going to Jesus' mother -(not God;s mother ) that still won't cut it with our just God .

I guess bottom line is the thoughts about how many souls are being put at risk because of false doctine is just very very frustrating . If I or others didn't really care about others and their souls final destination , do you really think that we'd be talking about it ? Rest assured I never feel the desire to bash " a catholic "- only some of the things coming from within the Roman Church .

One last thing , whenever I see a picture of the Pope - Vicars of God on earth -kissing the Koran ,or getting the markings from a Jesuit priest , or giving the rally call for everyone to join hands and be one big happy family I become more and more convinced that Rome will play a part in the one world false religion .

[keeotee]

Oh well, whatever. The Bible is clear enough on this matter. I suppose the tip-off if you will would be that if you sat down two people to argue about this, and one began quoting catholic doctrine and belief and the other began quoting the Bible, for me, that would be clue enough. I'd go with the Bible version myself.

But this holds true in other cases that have nothing to do with catholic beliefs. Take mormons or jehova witnesses and so on.

Beginning to see a pattern here!