A Heart for the Leader (as long as he's not home?)

[Angyl]

"Please pray for the leader of our country, that God would grant him wisdom."

"God ordains the leaders of the world."

"Whatever happens this election, it's all in God's hands."


It's that time of year again when so many Christians have their heart set on the future of this country based largely upon the candidate's religious views (or lack thereof). It is important, this understanding that God sets leaders above us and has clearly spelled out in his word that we are to obey their rule as long as that rule does not contradict the Bible.

I don't know too many Christians who have a problem with that concept. Rare is the brother or sister in Christ who insists that the verse is wrong and that we need not obey those that god has Ordained above us as either political or relgious leaders.

Why then, I have to wonder, do so many have a problem with following the lead of a husband at home when it is equally clearly laid out that he is to be the spiritual leader there?


The Grass is Always Greener:
This is a tried and true statement that has applied to everyone's life at one point or another. You always want what you can't have. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence (that you can't get to). Why does (s)he get to have that and not me?

Why do MEN get to be the leaders and not the women?

It is an awesome and heavy responsibility that some women covet and to illustrate:

on September 10th, 2001 President George Bush was the most powerful man in the world. An awesome responsibility. He led more than 275 million souls and was responsible to you, me and GOD for our well-being in many ways! Christians all across this great land prayed for him daily. They trusted in him, rsespected him and his leadership.

Then, on September 11th, things changed DRASTICALLY. Our country was plunged into turmoil for a brief period of time.

Would you like to have been president of the U.S. at the time?

I didn't think so.

Mr. Bush could have resigned the presidency and laid aside the responsibility of seeing us through that dangerous and troubling time.

But he didn't.

He held the mantle of his office up high and saw us through that terrible time as a true leader.

I have to wonder why any woman would be jealous of George W. Bush's job.

Likewise, I have to wonder why any woman would covet or be jealous of the job of a husband. Christian husbands face a responsibility as great if not GREATER than that of the President. Someday we will stand before the creator of the universe and answer to the spiritual health and well-being that our wives and children enjoyed while we lived on this earth. As families are the foundation...the building blocks of a nation, so as the families fall, so does the country.

Who will God blame for that?

Are you sure you'd want that responsibility?

As you go about the rest of this year, praying for our president, that he be a good and Godly leader to the millions, I ask that you also remember to pray for the Christian husbands out there who are standing and doing what many men out there won't. They are leading their families and trying to bring them up God's way. Don't forget to pray for the leader of the one or the eight rather than just the leader of the millions.

And don't forget to pray for that poor soul...the wife...who has to put up with his pitiful and continuing failures every day as well.

God bless ALL of the leaders in this country... ESPECIALLY the ones at home!! :wave

[KrispyKritter]

God bless us... every one!

Unfortunately for all you ladies out there, God only had one woman in mind when He commanded me in scripture to be the leader in my home. I know y'all are jealous of my wife... Sorry, but I have no plans on converting to Mormonism anytime soon.

But I will post here if that changes...

Seriously tho, great post Angyl! You're right on the money!

[cindyw]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
God bless us... every one!

Unfortunately for all you ladies out there, God only had one woman in mind when He commanded me in scripture to be the leader in my home. I know y'all are jealous of my wife... Sorry, but I have no plans on converting to Mormonism anytime soon.



:spit :pound :pound :pound

[joint heir]

I was wondering if you were getting the itch Angyl:): :D:
I was thinking about the subject recently too...

I'm sure there are women and men alike who covet leadership positions....heck we are all sinners....

but then there are also those who want God to be the leader yet do not agree that the Bible teaches that the male leads all the time and the female submits alone....

but rather that the Bible teaches that both submit to one another....because as a christian we are servants to all ...especially our spouse....so any leadership must come from not above but below....because when is a servant above the one they serve?

how does a servant think that they are above another? that they are ordained above...that is contrary to christianity....

any leadership comes has to come from below

....I heard this term recently (my dh is now entering the civilian world as opposed to the military...hence new lingo)
the term is "upward leadership"....meaning how do you influence and encourage the right direction from a lower place in a company....
and I thought how appropriately that is applied to christian marriage and christian relationships in general....

leadership comes from a place of service...and not just a little bit of service....full service....a washer of feet...in the church and in a christian marriage....yet many are called into the church as leaders....but are you a boss? or a servant?...

When both partners place themselves in submission to the other....God is able to take control....because we have allowed that....same in the church...when church leadership places themselves as servants to others....it is so easy to see God's will and God is given the lead...


and I am not taking about telling people what to do and then calling yourself a sevant.....what servant tells their master what to do?...the beauty is that we are both servants...we both take the lower position....so that we can more easily see the Lord in the highest position

so while I am sure there are many women who want to be ordained above their husbands....there are just as many men who want to be above their wives....but both are missing the point....we are to place ourselves beneath everyone....

and lead in an upward manner as God calls....if you are in a right place with God and you are in God's will you can't help but be a leader in some sense....because people see God working in you....

it has nothing to do with bossing anyone around or making decisions for someone else and expecting them to just follow along...(when does a servant ever do that?)....but instead just letting the Lord shine through you...whether male or female...and letting the Lord use you to influence and serve another

[Angyl]

Here we go again...

I'm going to simply say that one verse, which in context is talking about church members, can not undo more than a dozen others that are contrary to the idea that marriages are to be based on mutual submission, common sense (the world nations and Israel, ordained by God have always had a single leader), and the rest of the Bible.

One leader...ONE. Everywhere you turn in scripture, everywhere you turn in the world and everywhere in nature. Never two leaders...NEVER.

Leaders are to serve, yes, as the rest of your post points out, but that doesn't take away the fact that they're a leader.

And there can be only one.

[joint heir]

One verse?

Philipians 2:2-8

Galatians 5:13,14

Romans 12:9-10,16

John 15:12-13

It is a prevailing theme of scripture...and not to be dismissed because one happens to be married to another member of the church


We don't have to go into if you don't want to .....your call...:): We have not had a good discussion in a while....otherwise I think that my post speaks clearly....the whole concept of leadership in the church is different then that of the world....service and a placing of oneself beneath....

the world thinks top ....down
christians should be thinking bottom up....laying down of our lives...living in service to others...

completely fundamental to christianity....:):

[Angyl]

The verses in Philipians 2:2-8 speak to serving each other with a lowly and meek heart which is what Jesus did for all of us. I've never denied that leaders are to serve...doesn't mean that they are not leaders.

In fact, all of the verses speak to the same thing. Loving one another equally and serving one another.

Yes...one verse. The ONE that speaks specifically to submission (to each other), which is, in the context...only applying to us in the church.

Compared to the many verses that say specifically for wives to submit themselves to their husbands, for women to not hold authority over men...yadda yadda yadda TIME AND TIME AGAIN and nary a single verse in all of scripture that says the same thing in reverse (men submit to women)

You've got some verses that talk about loving EACH OTHER. esteeming EACH OTHER. and women submit to MEN. (never men to women).

It seems patently obvious to me. The Biblical model is about love... and it is about sole leadership. You can not deny that no matter how much you want to... If you think you can, I defy you to show me a God-sanctioned relationship in the Bible with a woman at the head.

ahem... Deborah was a judge...not the leader of the nation, she went and found a MAN to do that job. Just as God told her to do.

[BusyMom]

Another Angyl vs. joint heir authority thread! Can we stand the
:mad :wacko :frusty :cry :yell :twitch one more time?????

You guys just crack me up!!

:):

[Angyl]

Originally posted by BusyMom
Another Angyl vs. joint heir authority thread! Can we stand the
:mad :wacko :frusty :cry :yell :twitch one more time?????

You guys just crack me up!!

:):

*sigh*

I'm sure we'll be doin' this until the Rapture...

[joint heir]

Absolutely there are leaders.....but they don't look the same as they do in the world.....

they lead bottom up from that place of servitude...placing themselves below another....not from the top down which was the picture you seemed to be painting:):

which is exactly what submission is....it is a voluntary act of placing one own needs and desires under that of another....can leadership occur from this position...absolutely....can bossyness? no

and absolutely women are to submit to their husbands.....but as long as a husband is a member of that church body he has an obligation to his wife as part of church body to submit to her....

it is plain as day....You either balance all the scripture....the ones where everyone is supposed to place themselves lower ....including Eph 5:21...or you just look to the women's direction to submit ....and ignore that that is just one part of what we are all suppposed to do....

You can not just erase the verse....it is the building block of the whole passage of the discussion of husbands and wives

:):






:laugh @busymom :): :D:

[Angyl]

Originally posted by joint heir
You can not just erase the verse....it is the building block of the whole passage of the discussion of husbands and wives


I'm not erasing. I'm reading it in context.

It is completely possible and reasonable for a husband and wife (one flesh) to be submissive to the church as a team as the verse suggests while as the one flesh/husband and wife team the husband LEADS as all the rest of scripture indicates. This "bottom up" leadership you keep talking about is not Biblical. Jesus was the obvious leader of the disciples, yet he served them.

DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT HE WAS OBVIOUSLY IN CHARGE AND THEY LOOKED TO HIM.

Trying to confuse the heart of a servant and the role of a leader in this way is a new one for you, JH. It's like mixing an ounce of sewage with a gallon of pure water.

I still ain't drinkin' it. :D:

[joint heir]

How is servant leadership not biblical?

How can we have any leaders if it is not?...every single member of the church is instructed to place themselves below another....not grasping equality....

how could we ever have leadership in the church body....if it did not come from a place of below? a place of service...

I have given scripture that teach that every single one of us is to place ourselves beneath others....

you now have to come up with a verse that provides an exception for those in leadership ifyou feel that leadership comes from placing yourself above another.

Of course Christ is God , but he chose to act as a foot washer....a giver of his very life....He gives all of those he leads the choice to follow...this is what servant leadership is ....serve from a place below(a foot washer...lowest of the low)....speak truth ...and then allow the other to follow if they choose...

this is christian leadership as modeled by Christ


We are to be submissive to one another...how can a wife be excluded from "one another"...Is she not part of the body?

[KrispyKritter]

Does this mean the husband and the wife can share one head convering?

She wears it for one hour, then he wears it for an hour... back and forth? Should they get an egg timer so they know when it's been an hour... ?

[joint heir]

the husband is head of the wife (lets not go into the literal covering/hair dispute)

Christ is head of man and the church....did that keep him from washing feet? If he God in flesh can serve that way...how much more can the husband who is also flesh think that equality with his wife is not something to be grasped and place himself in service to her...as she does to him.....

Christ though he could did not consider equality something to be grasped...he humbled himself....and we are all instructed to do the same...

If one is willing to serve and humble themselves to the church body....how can one not want to do that with their wives...who are part of the church...and who they hopefully love more than the rest of the body...

since men are the head of their wives it obviously does not mean that they are to be the boss..or we have contradiction in scripture....look at Ephesians 5:25-

what is the desciption of the head....
love...(no man hath greater love than they give up their life for a friend.)..perfectly consistent with submission

giving up of self (perfectly consistent with submission)

feed and care for her (perfectly consistent with submission)...and this is often something that women do instead for men....mutually again


where is there any description of the role of head that is inconsistent with submission?

[Angyl]

You're really onto this new track of submission=leadership, arencha?

All right. Tell me, in the Bible do we ever see Abraham consulting with his wife before he up and moved his tents?

Did Jacobs wives ever make the decision to build an altar at a certain place and worship the lord?

Did Moses's wife give to him the meaning behind what was said at the burning bush?

Were any of the high priests ordained by God female? Did any of the male priests in scripture seek their wife's interpretation on something from God?

Did Sampson...

Well, yes he did... look at the result :laugh

Did David lend ear to his many wives on how to run the kingdom?

Was there, indeed ever a reigning Queen in Israel?

Did Sampson check with his wives before rendering any of his wisdom?

The Biblical model is simple. It is seen in all of these men and Christ. There IS a leader. Just as in our churches today, no matter how you want to spin it otherwise...the PASTOR, is the LEADER of the congregation. He serves the church, yes, but the decisions are his to make.

Paul instructs us in his writings that we are not to use the courts of the world against each other. That we are to love, uplift and support each other. In the same tone he tells us to submit to one another. That means that if my brother in church comes to me with a rebuke, I am to take it as coming from the Lord. If he can help me with an issue with my family, I am to be receptive of it. But if that brother tries to tell me and my family what to do...he has overstepped his bounds.

Because the family...MY family, is MY responsibility before God. There is a verse in the Bible that speaks of the husband being able to actually nullify a promise his wife makes to God.

It doesn't say the wife can ever do likewise...that is the husband's... the leader's responsibility alone as the Spiritual head of the house, to interceed on his wife's behalf if need be the same way Christ (our leader) interceeds for ALL of us.

Where is this "mutal leadership" you are talking about in light of such a verse? When my wife can say to God, "I promise you this that and the other" and I, led by the Spirit to see the foolishness in that can simply negate the promise and take the consequences upon myself!

This paints the perfect picture of Christ being the head of the church and the HUSBAND being the head of the family. All throughout scripture the prophecies that point to the things Christ will do for the church can be (and are) perfectly likened to the things the husband is to do for his family. The parallels are undeniable.

If there were any...and yes I do mean ANY indications in the Bible of a wife being able to the same type of things for her husband you would have an argument, JH, but there isn't...

NO NOT ONE! EVER.

There is no contradiction, none at all. My wife and I are submissive to the church body and its wisdom. My wife and daughter are ultimately submisive to me and me alone however. It is MY decision to remove us from our church if there should ever arise a problem there... to take us away from the service and submission of that place. If we did not attend church at all...our family would still need a head.

It would be me. It is not a wresting of leadership from my wife. It is a position I was born into... my wife also, has willingly placed herself under my leadership in submission to what the word of God clearly says.

You seem to be confusing humble and humility with leadership and decision making, thinking that it is not possible to do both simultaneously, yet that is exactly what Christ did/was and this is the hole in your argument big enough to push Golgotha through. :laugh

We all know Christ was the most humble man ever... he served us all with a humility that was to be envied and ever copied...

But we also all know that Christ is our leader once and for all...what he says goes. Your argument is that you can not do both. Either the husband and wife submit (and lead) together or one is leading and one is following.

The argument is obviously flawed as Christ, our example, did both perfectly.

[Angyl]

Originally posted by joint heir
where is there any description of the role of head that is inconsistent with submission?

In ultimate authority, JH, which belongs to Christ...or in the case of us mere mortals, it belongs to the husband who represents Christ. A husband leading his wife by serving her is still leading her and still ultimately responsible for his wife and family.

[joint heir]

Angyl...I am not saying anything new to my position....but we are coming to this debate from a little bit different direction

It is really pretty straightforward...

True or false....

We are to place ourselves lower as christians not thinking equality something to be grasped....true

We are to submit to one another in the church true

wives and husbands are both part of the church true



Does Abraham every consult his wife? in Gen21:12....God tells Abraham to hearken unto her

No one has to check with someone else if God is speaking directly to them....that is not what submission is about....each partner of a marriage is in direct covenant with God....independant of their spouse.....and each has the Holy Spirit and is capable of determining God's will for their lives and will be held accountable for that

Do you really need examples that the Lord can speak directly to women? and not just men....

submission is not about...checking with someone about what the Lord is telling you....it is about placing yourself beneath someone...surpressing your desires and needs....never that of the Lord....

the Lord can speak to one or both partners in a marriage....the other partner is free to also come to truth on that issue...God does not hold back His will or wisdom when one is seeking it...

When did Christ ever say to his followers....this is what is right and I am going to make you do it....How did he convince? through service...How did he lead? coercion? force? of course not...by being a foot washer...by laying down his needs and desires

so if a partner has a leading from the Lord...through their love and service they can inform the other....the couple prays and the Lord is faithful to show his will....it is how all believers should be working with each other and communicating

it is totally against the fundamentals of Christianity and Jesus's example to us to think yourself higher and take away will from another....

[Angyl]

You assume leadership=higher.

You assume submission=not equal.

Therein lies the flaw in your thinking.

leadership is nothing more than a role given to me that makes me no more or less equal than my wife who has been given the role of bearing children and teaching them.

it's a JOB.

not a position (in the elevation sense).

But really. Why can men interceed with god on their wives' behalf but not the other way around? I'd like your reasoning behind that.

[joint heir]

Originally posted by Angyl
[B]You assume leadership=higher.

no I assume that biblical leadership is from a place of service...a placing of oneself lower

You assume submission=not equal.

it has nothing to do with equality or the desire of it....it is a heart attitude....we as christians should not care whether we are equal or not....is should not be something that we should want to grasp....it is a heart attitude of placing other and their needs above your own

Therein lies the flaw in your thinking.

not my thinking ....straight scripture...:): and fundamental christian thinking

leadership is nothing more than a role given to me that makes me no more or less equal than my wife who has been given the role of bearing children and teaching them.


Your role is to love the Lord your God and love one another
Your role is to submit to one another in the church

likewise is mine....

Your role as head is to :

love your wife
give yourself up for her (sounds like submission)
love as your own body
feed and care for her

as defined by Ephesians 5....

my role as a wife is to submit to my head which leads back to mutual submission....which is the lead in to the whole section anyway (verse 21)




t's a JOB.
leasership is a service to the body....part of which is your wife....the Lord certainly may be calling you to lead in ways....but that does not mean that he has not called her to lead as well....

leadership from service and truth...not bossying

not a position (in the elevation sense).[/quote}

I agree that this is not what leadership is.... I believe you were the one to use the term "ordained above":):

[QUOTE]But really. Why can men interceed with god on their wives' behalf but not the other way around? I'd like your reasoning behind that.

first I would like proof that this statement is true....all believers can intercede in prayer on the behalf of others....I am not sure what you are trying to say:):

[Angyl]

Numbers 30
1 And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded.
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;
4 And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her; then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.
5 But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.
6 And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;
7 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
10 And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
11 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.
13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

That's an extraordinary responsibility given to husbands and fathers to stand in the place of their wives and children in the image of what Christ would do (did) for us.

Why is it not the other way around?

[Angyl]

Originally posted by joint heir
Your role as head is to :

love your wife
give yourself up for her (sounds like submission)
love as your own body
feed and care for her

as defined by Ephesians 5....


head means NOTHING To you, does it? Submission also means NOTHING to you unless it's followed by "to each other." I don't understand how you can pass off verses that say for the wife to SUBMIT TO HER HUSBAND as being inferior to or somehow under the commandment that we submit ourselves to the church body. Be that as it may, the church BODY is not MY WIFE specifically.

SHE submits to me.

WE submit to the church body.

That's the precise wording of scripture left and right, but you want to ignore the first part as being irrelevant in the light of the second. I really don't get how you can do that. :confused

And still, you keep talking of "higher" and "placing onesself "lower" as if that has anything to do with submission or authority in the home. They're irrelevant to the discussion. I can hold ultimate authority in my home and still serve my wife. It's not as if the two are impossible to pull off. CHRIST DID.

[joint heir]

You are going to use the law to agrue that women can not act as intercessors in prayer?

head means to me exactly what the Bible describes it to mean....

I don't pass off submission as being less from a wife to a husband than to church members....submission is a challenging thing for everyone male and female...our flesh resists....but it is also a high calling and creates unity in the body and in marriage

I didn't write the command to submit to one another....I just follow it.

I didn't make up the instuction to make ones self lower or to humble oneself either....

I agree you can have all the authority of Christ's words and truth but you still don't get out of clear instruction to submit....and humble yourself...and place yourself beneath...where service comes from....none of us do...

You thinking of authority is that you get to tell people what to do and make decisions for them....but that is not what biblical authority is....

you have the authority to serve...you have the authority to lay down your life....you have the authority to feed and care....Christ does not make us do anything....He layed down his life for us....he served us ....he healed us....this is the model he gave us...

He came to earth in all authority.....to do what? boss...make decisions for others? Did he make people believe? Did he make them follow...Did he say...You have to follow me because I have authority...

what did he do in his authority?....exactly the picture we have in Ephesians 5...He gave himself up...his desires and needs....he fed and cared....He gave up his entire life in service...

a role perfectly compatible with mutual submission....

it works....it is what marriage is designed to be....one flesh...with each partner lowering themselves and esteeming the other....

[Angyl]

*sigh*

Did Christ ever command His disciples?

[Angyl]

Originally posted by joint heir
You are going to use the law to agrue that women can not act as intercessors in prayer?


It's got nothing to do with the LAW or interceeding in prayer. It points directly to the husband/father's spiritual leadership in his own home, though. 'twas always thus and it was like that for a reason. It's just more supporting evidence...and there's TONS OF IT.

[joint heir]

Sure there are commands abounding in scripture....
We also worship Jesus....therefore should we worship our husbands?
Jesus also created the church...should husbands create their wives?

this is not the picture we have of the head....the picture is very clear what the relationship between husbands and wives is....
the heading is mutual submission...

the directives for husbands are:
love
lay down life
feed and care
love as own body


otherwise Paul could have easily written:

Command your wives well
You are excluded from submission
Only command them in a Godly way
Lead them well
Make good decisions for them

but he didn't....because that is not our role as christians....that is not our place....we are to not consider ourselves equal....how do we command if we don't consider ourselves equal?.....it is impossible!

If you think that as a christian you should be running around commanding then you are mistaken....that is very contrary to scripture...

The disciples were free to recognize the truth of Christ ...that he was God and follow....but they did not have to....Christ did not say...look I am the authority here...you better do what I say....

He led with truth and service....and we are free to lead like that...but instead of speaking our own commands....we speak the truth of God given to us....and we allow those we lead to follow or not...we encourage...we pray for them...but we do not take away their will....we do not limit their ability to seek God for themselves...but this is God's will .....not our own desires or needs

The picture of head is clearly described in Ephesians 5...you can not add to that other things that Jesus does that are not specific to the description of head....

[Angyl]

Originally posted by joint heir
Sure there are commands abounding in scripture....
We also worship Jesus....therefore should we worship our husbands?
Jesus also created the church...should husbands create their wives?

Why must you equate one aspect of what Christ did with all others?


the directives for husbands are:
love
lay down life
feed and care
love as own body


And the directives for wives includes submission to their husbands. That is NOT a directive listed for husbands (to submit to their wives). You are ignoring it in light of trying to lump it in with mutual submission to the church. It doesn't fly.

[joint heir]

Originally posted by Angyl
It's got nothing to do with the LAW or interceeding in prayer. It points directly to the husband/father's spiritual leadership in his own home, though. 'twas always thus and it was like that for a reason. It's just more supporting evidence...and there's TONS OF IT.

Well you are going to need to spell out specifically what your beliefs are on this....before I comment...

what do you consider spiritual leadership...specifically what does it entail...feel free to offer the TONS of evidence:):


it has then been established that both male and female act as intercessor? am I correct that you agree?

[joint heir]

Originally posted by Angyl


Why must you equate one aspect of what Christ did with all others?

I believe you are the one doing that...no where is it described that the head will command...the picture given in Ephesians is limited in scope....and it has to stay limited to that scope...we can't start running around giving men the right to do something just because Jesus did it....



And the directives for wives includes submission to their husbands. That is NOT a directive listed for husbands (to submit to their wives). You are ignoring it in light of trying to lump it in with mutual submission to the church. It doesn't fly. [/B]

sure it is a directive for husbands too...the whole passage is headed under mutual submission...not to mention all the other passages I listed earlier....including Philipians 2:2-8 which I have been commenting quite a bit on....submission and love are tied together throughout scripture....it is a recurring theme...



edit to add....if we can...let's get back on a one post to one post reply...I feel like I am going to miss something you said...I will wait for you to respond to both of mine before I comment back...if that is okay with you:):

[Angyl]

What I'm seeing is this:

The Bible clearly states that husbands are to

A
B
C
and
D.

And that wives are to :

E
F
G (directly pertaining to her husband)
and
H

And that ALL believers are to
K
L
G (to the body of Christ)
and
M

SINCE G is present in two of the lists (the wife and all believers) you want to ignore that it is not present, in context for the husbands to do. Somehow, in your morph-melding of the dictates that doesn't matter anymore...G (as it relates to his wife) is present in the dictates of the husband by assumption.

ASSUMPTION.

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by joint heir
Sure there are commands abounding in scripture....
We also worship Jesus....therefore should we worship our husbands?
Jesus also created the church...should husbands create their wives?



Sarah called Abraham lord, eve was taken out of man "..............."

Shelly, Shelly, Shelly "...................." Why "......................" don't you "..............." just submit "................." to Angyl ".............." and admit that he is right? (...............................)

;): :laugh

[joint heir]

Hyssop...let's just stick to conversations about Mexican food and groceries....:laugh ..........we seem to do better that way:)::D:

[Hyssop]

Originally posted by joint heir
Hyssop...let's just stick to conversations about Mexican food and groceries....:laugh ..........we seem to do better that way:)::D:

You are right on that :thumb :kiss

..... :tape

[Angyl]

Originally posted by Hyssop
Sarah called Abraham lord, eve was taken out of man "..............."

Shelly, Shelly, Shelly "...................." Why "......................" don't you "..............." just submit "................." to Angyl ".............." and admit that he is right? (...............................)


She doesn't do that because she LOVES ME :kiss

And she knows that if she ever did I'd die of a heart attack.

[Angyl]

Oh, and feel free to post on, Shelly. I'm done for the moment. I'm going to have to kick around the spiritual leader bit since you want me to be so specific. I smell a trap. :D:

[joint heir]

no I am trying to avoid a trap....I don't know where you are going with this...and I want to put all the cards on the table....:D:


angyl said:

What I'm seeing is this:

The Bible clearly states that husbands are to

A
B
C
and
D.

And that wives are to :

E
F
G (directly pertaining to her husband)
and
H

And that ALL believers are to
K
L
G (to the body of Christ)
and
M

SINCE G is present in two of the lists (the wife and all believers) you want to ignore that it is not present, in context for the husbands to do. Somehow, in your morph-melding of the dictates that doesn't matter anymore...G (as it relates to his wife) is present in the dictates of the husband by assumption.

ASSUMPTION.

Shelley says:

the Bible says:

A (everyone)

the wives A to husbands

the husbands BCD to wives



husbands don't get out of A just because they BCD...

and wives don't get out of B ...just because they A

it is all about unity and one flesh....

A=submission
B=love

[Hyssop]

( Ouch, my head hurts :wacko )

:tape

[joint heir]

:laugh me too

I think we have been doing this so long....we are speaking in code;):

[Hyssop]

...How... touching... sniff :laugh








(Shell, you have a PM)

[Angyl]

Ya know, at this point, I feel the only reason I engage in these discussions with you, sis, is because I think it's a Godly example of how brothers and sisters in Christ ought to disagree (even VEHEMENTLY) on a subject. In this day and age we see more and more yelling and less and less simple, reasonable discussion, even if it never comes eye to eye. I hope we can be a testimony to unbelievers out there with this...not that I ever expect you to change your mind and admit that I'm right and you're WAAAAAAAAAY off base!

I'm in the process of "mustering my mental forces" for more of this battle. It'll take me awhile (until tonight (I'm at work now)) or perhaps tomorrow morning, but I will come out with both guns blazing soon, K?

[joint heir]

I love you too Angyl:):

:cry I am getting all emotional:P: j/k

you are right we disagree well....like siblings at the dinner table:D:

please feel free to take a while....I am tired....and I spent a wee bit too much time on the computer today....we can slow the conversation down by quite a bit and still consider is fast paced:D: